Thinking picking up the deck(pyro titi version cause i dont have the combo).My main consern is jund how good is young pyro vs jund ,and how good is titi?Also how you guys deal with veil ?
If you want to beat jund you should play the hard control version, where you make most of their removal spells bad, and liliana's edict less of a back breaking thing. Also to hedge against jund you can main deck an entrancing melody over a clique.
Jund has too many ways to mess with pyromancer (removal, discard it or your spells) and it's a bad top deck. Ideally you'd play pyromancer on turn 4 and kill something, double cantrip, or both.
I've played a version of this deck where it had 3 YPs, and 3 TITIs. The non-bo of those two cards didn't come up that much. However you probably want to play one or the other not both. They're both really powerful two drops so you want to pick one and just play 4 of it so you have a better chance of drawing it.
The way to beat liliana is to not let the jund opponent get value out of her. You don't want them to get edict value. You don't want them to plus her with no cards in their hand. You don't want to throw multiple cards away to get her off the table. Against liliana, and jund in general, you want to keep track of how you trade cards with them.
If you're on the draw, don't slam your two drop creature on turn 2, if the opponent plays turn 3 liliana and edicts you, you just got wrecked. Then on your turn 3 you bolt the liliana, the liliana just got 2 cards, your bolt and creature. That's like the super basic obvious situation to not put yourself in.
If you get edicted, you can get back on card parody if you had an electrolyze. In that instance you traded your 2 drop for their liliana, and cycled an electrolyze (which is card neutral).
Also something to think about is how strong are the cards in your hand. If you are flooded, or have weak/dead cards like opt/remand blood moon, then it might be worth letting the opponent tick up the liliana so you're both trading cards. If your opponent trades their spell for your land with the liliana discard, that's a great trade for you, as you'll have better top decking equity than them. Then you can bolt/snap bolt the liliana at 6 counters, or you can bolt/electrolyze a liliana at 5 counters, and come out even on card parody.
Jace, Cryptic, Snapcaster, electrolyze, clique, young pryomancer are the cards that can help you beat a resolved liliana.
It doesn't seem like there is a consensus of the best version of this deck, 1) breach, 2) two drop creatures (YP, TITI), 3) madcap, or 4) hard control. Kiki Jiki appears to be ruled out of the conversation.
The article advocates for the hard control version, and gives solid reasoning. However the hard control version has some bad match ups (linear aggro decks, eldrazi, bogles, and hollow one). The madcap combo is solid vs eldrazi and hollow one. Thing in the ice is good against all three of those decks.
With that said, it seems like which version to play is more of a meta call. You can also build your sideboard to have multiple angles of attack.
1) It can't fetch Jace
2) The mana is worse than 3 color builds, which means it's more susceptible to blood moon and land destruction. Drawing plains, hallowed fountain, temple garden and/or the wrath is the worst feeling in the world.
The best main deck card you have is Gideon OTT. Stony silence and dispel are the better cards you can play vs ad nauseum. Some decks do have sideboard grave titans though.
Storm boards into a value deck, less reliant on the grave yard, so graveyard hate is okay, but not amazing like a rule of law card would be. They generally try to win with empty post board.
UW is not really a deck you want to be playing if storm and ad nauseum are popular decks.
Since not many blue control decks are playing 3-4 ancestrals, then this should clue you on to the fact that this is a meta game card. So play it if there are a lot of rock decks, blue control and lantern decks.
Thoughts? The deck is tier 2. You can put whatever cards you want in it and do reasonably well. The guy that was playing the 5-2 creature list in the challenge also streamed it, his handle is heatchecker.
Mcwinsauce had a good comment on Twitter, the decks good match ups in jeskai, deaths shadow and affinity are down. So the deck isn't as well positioned as it once was.
The deck is okay, not great. Tweaking numbers isn't going to make the deck unbeatable.
I've been messing around with scapeshift on mtgo since the Jace unbanning. I'm a firm believer that you have to limit the number of non-cantrip, non-mana source, non-scapeshift cards to 4 or less. I think if you're playing 4 bolt and 2 izzet charm you're setting yourself up for failure.
I've been pretty happy with this 60:
I haven't played enough with azcanta yet. I played 1 in the 75 and wasn't too thrilled with it, so that's why it's not in my current list. I feel it's much better in the Ux control decks. When you activate it in scapeshift you have very specific cards you want, where as in Ux control you're happy with the extra card. But I probably should give Pascal's list in the CFB video a try.
Winning the die roll, going turn 1 search, turn 2 remand, turn 3 jace is amazing. I think you want 1-2 farseek to maximize turn 3 Jaces. I've liked Jace in this deck, it's no dig through time, but it's still very good.
I'm not too sure about the expensive cards in the sideboard as some peoples' plan is to fulminator you out of the game. Hornet queen is the nuts vs jund barring maelstrom pulse. Ugin is 20 cents online so I had to try it. There's probably something better than Ugin.
I've tested the Bring to Light list a little bit. BtL can't get Jace. There's no value card to get on turns 3-5 other than hunting wilds.
But I don't think the deck is that well positioned, as there's are too many turn 4 decks.
In a deck full of fetches, I do prefer Telling Time over Anticipate, because if you see 2 cards you want out of the three, you can keep one at the top and draw the other one. If you want only 1 of the cards, you can draw it, set any other one at top of library and than shuffle it away with a fetch land. Anticipate never gives you such options. If you see 2 good cards, you must bottom one of them and keep one.
I played telling time in scapeshift, which had as many shuffle effects and it was still bad. If you don't have a shuffle the card is just awful. The one redeeming quality of the card was that it was serviceable against discard, it's like a really bad brain storm.
You are going to run out of fetchable lands with 8 fetchable lands and 12 fetches by virtue of drawing fetchable lands and by your opponents playing their own field/gq. 4-6 blue fetches seems like the sweet spot.
If you want to play 4 snapcasters you need 4 opts minimum.
I don't like mana leak though some people still play it.
I have played 4 logic knot in jeskai and cried in the sideboard games when my opponent opened on turn 1 relic. People will bring in grave hate vs you and logic knot isnt something you always side out. That's something to think about as multiple knots have other unforseen costs. I don't think you have enough 1 cmc cards to play 4 knots anyways.
Telling time is much much worse than anticipate unless you are playing Miracles. That opinion written in this thread is just wrong, and like they never played telling time before. Both cards are weak though.
I don't like cutting search for Azcanta, remember that card turns into a mana source for this mana hungry deck. It's not just a slow filtering and a value engine.
I think that list would be worth testing if you cut some of the knots and all of the anticipates for 1 cmc can trips and a snare and/or some other 1-2 cmc interactive card. I'd cut something to play a search or two. Playing 1 settle the wreckage over the 4th verdict is probably better since you play 4 cryptic and 4 snapcasters.
Currently the sorcery speed cards have proven their worth, so trying to go more instant speed will be met with criticism.
Data from mtgo should be taken as a grain of salt. For leagues they only publish "unique" deck lists. I would only look at leagues for sweet tech.
Mtgo modern challenge has better data, but we need multiple weeks of data to draw any conclusions from it.
The best way to get data is to post your experiences and admit when you played vs good/bad opponents and when you made bad decisions to give a real perspective on the decks performance.
Crushing scrubs in FNM doesn't mean anything but going 9-1 vs the top 3 players in you LGS means a lot. A 60% win rate in friendly leagues has some value, but doing that in comp leagues has more value.
I was impressed with how well McLaren's deck worked. He was streaming so he made a few mistakes.
For UW lists I like Bennyhillz' the most. I can't give up revelation as it's such a great stabilizer. And the miser terminus seems it adds percentage points against bogles, dredge and hollow one decks. I guess runed halo was similar in that regard too.
I think disrupting shoal is a trap, and it's only getting posted since it's triggering wizard's 20 unique card algorithm. At least on mtgo, there's too much tron for the card to be playable. Countering a turn 1 map might be amazing, but I don't think that deck has a fast enough clock for that to matter.
I think breach is pretty good. It has a combo finish to beat the unfair decks quickly. And it's strong against the other UWx decks. I know UW control pre Jace unbanning had a terrible match up vs breach. And since both decks now get jace, it's probably an even trade at the worst. The esper lists could be a problem, as discard, lingering souls and liliana are annoying, but then 3 color decks get wrecked by blood moon.
I've been messing around in the practice room and friendly leagues and watching a ton of people on twitch stream Jace decks. Nothing has been standing out that much. I think these streamers lose percentage points streaming making wrong plays while reading the chat. Perhaps these controlling Jace decks are better than they appear. But in my experience i've been losing the least with a UR moon deck. I think being proactive is where you want to be, as you don't know what threats you need to stop currently. However I think everyone has 3-4 dispels in their board now, I wonder if there's some sideboard tech you can play. Young pyromancer might be viable, though the 17th modern challenge list only has 2 slots for midrange/controlling decks.
How is everyone's experience against lightning bolt decks? Initially it seemed as though most of the streamers I watched were particularly concerned with UW not being able to keep up in the Jace mirrors due to an inability to brainstorm the first turn JtMS came down for fear of bolt, but this hasn't been my experience so far. It hasn't been hard to just +2.
I haven't had a chance to play much, i'm waiting for someone to publish a list that looks amazing. Bennyhillz list is probably solid but it seems boring. I tested my ancestral version a little bit and lowered the curve a bit. But then I got punished by the path + mana leak non-combo. I also wanted to be cute and play mana tithe, but that card is not playable when you're playing path.
I have been watching a lot of streams (and vods) play with Jace and BBE, and it was funny to just watch them get rolled, or roll over the opponent with Jace. Jace looks pretty sweet in the taking turns deck.
I think with the meta currently being so crazy (online) you just want to be proactive and tap out. And I think Nassif and another steamer wanted to cut a colonnade to not fall behind in tempo. You don't know what the good answer cards are. That's why you can justify playing GotT. You really want to cast a spell every turn in the game, and there are very few good 3 cmc cards you can play in UW (unless you count snapcaster). I don't know if detention sphere is that good anymore, I loved it vs grixis shadow and storm since it was an out to their nut draws. But GDS and storm seem to be on the decline? Looking at other blue control decks that can play Jace, UR, and Jeskai, there are so few good three drops to play (electrolyze, blood moon, geist). And all these decks just load up on the 4 drop slot (jace, cryptic, sweepers, other walkers). I just found it interesting that there aren't that many good 3 cmc cards to play in blue based control decks. Maybe UB, esper or sultai will be a thing and then there's liliana. Esper has esper charm and lingering souls. I love esper charm but i'm not sold on it. Lingering souls is bad vs half the decks in the format.
If you want to beat jund you should play the hard control version, where you make most of their removal spells bad, and liliana's edict less of a back breaking thing. Also to hedge against jund you can main deck an entrancing melody over a clique.
Jund has too many ways to mess with pyromancer (removal, discard it or your spells) and it's a bad top deck. Ideally you'd play pyromancer on turn 4 and kill something, double cantrip, or both.
I've played a version of this deck where it had 3 YPs, and 3 TITIs. The non-bo of those two cards didn't come up that much. However you probably want to play one or the other not both. They're both really powerful two drops so you want to pick one and just play 4 of it so you have a better chance of drawing it.
The way to beat liliana is to not let the jund opponent get value out of her. You don't want them to get edict value. You don't want them to plus her with no cards in their hand. You don't want to throw multiple cards away to get her off the table. Against liliana, and jund in general, you want to keep track of how you trade cards with them.
If you're on the draw, don't slam your two drop creature on turn 2, if the opponent plays turn 3 liliana and edicts you, you just got wrecked. Then on your turn 3 you bolt the liliana, the liliana just got 2 cards, your bolt and creature. That's like the super basic obvious situation to not put yourself in.
If you get edicted, you can get back on card parody if you had an electrolyze. In that instance you traded your 2 drop for their liliana, and cycled an electrolyze (which is card neutral).
Also something to think about is how strong are the cards in your hand. If you are flooded, or have weak/dead cards like opt/remand blood moon, then it might be worth letting the opponent tick up the liliana so you're both trading cards. If your opponent trades their spell for your land with the liliana discard, that's a great trade for you, as you'll have better top decking equity than them. Then you can bolt/snap bolt the liliana at 6 counters, or you can bolt/electrolyze a liliana at 5 counters, and come out even on card parody.
Jace, Cryptic, Snapcaster, electrolyze, clique, young pryomancer are the cards that can help you beat a resolved liliana.
https://www.massdrop.com/talk/3551/blue-moon-at-gp-phoenix?utm_source=mtg&utm_medium=influencer&utm_campaign=talkposts&utm_term=15572
It doesn't seem like there is a consensus of the best version of this deck, 1) breach, 2) two drop creatures (YP, TITI), 3) madcap, or 4) hard control. Kiki Jiki appears to be ruled out of the conversation.
The article advocates for the hard control version, and gives solid reasoning. However the hard control version has some bad match ups (linear aggro decks, eldrazi, bogles, and hollow one). The madcap combo is solid vs eldrazi and hollow one. Thing in the ice is good against all three of those decks.
With that said, it seems like which version to play is more of a meta call. You can also build your sideboard to have multiple angles of attack.
1) It can't fetch Jace
2) The mana is worse than 3 color builds, which means it's more susceptible to blood moon and land destruction. Drawing plains, hallowed fountain, temple garden and/or the wrath is the worst feeling in the world.
Storm boards into a value deck, less reliant on the grave yard, so graveyard hate is okay, but not amazing like a rule of law card would be. They generally try to win with empty post board.
UW is not really a deck you want to be playing if storm and ad nauseum are popular decks.
Mcwinsauce had a good comment on Twitter, the decks good match ups in jeskai, deaths shadow and affinity are down. So the deck isn't as well positioned as it once was.
The deck is okay, not great. Tweaking numbers isn't going to make the deck unbeatable.
I've been pretty happy with this 60:
I haven't played enough with azcanta yet. I played 1 in the 75 and wasn't too thrilled with it, so that's why it's not in my current list. I feel it's much better in the Ux control decks. When you activate it in scapeshift you have very specific cards you want, where as in Ux control you're happy with the extra card. But I probably should give Pascal's list in the CFB video a try.
Winning the die roll, going turn 1 search, turn 2 remand, turn 3 jace is amazing. I think you want 1-2 farseek to maximize turn 3 Jaces. I've liked Jace in this deck, it's no dig through time, but it's still very good.
I'm not too sure about the expensive cards in the sideboard as some peoples' plan is to fulminator you out of the game. Hornet queen is the nuts vs jund barring maelstrom pulse. Ugin is 20 cents online so I had to try it. There's probably something better than Ugin.
I've tested the Bring to Light list a little bit. BtL can't get Jace. There's no value card to get on turns 3-5 other than hunting wilds.
But I don't think the deck is that well positioned, as there's are too many turn 4 decks.
Cut cards for two more lands if you're not playing serum visions.
I played telling time in scapeshift, which had as many shuffle effects and it was still bad. If you don't have a shuffle the card is just awful. The one redeeming quality of the card was that it was serviceable against discard, it's like a really bad brain storm.
If you want to play 4 snapcasters you need 4 opts minimum.
I don't like mana leak though some people still play it.
I have played 4 logic knot in jeskai and cried in the sideboard games when my opponent opened on turn 1 relic. People will bring in grave hate vs you and logic knot isnt something you always side out. That's something to think about as multiple knots have other unforseen costs. I don't think you have enough 1 cmc cards to play 4 knots anyways.
Telling time is much much worse than anticipate unless you are playing Miracles. That opinion written in this thread is just wrong, and like they never played telling time before. Both cards are weak though.
I don't like cutting search for Azcanta, remember that card turns into a mana source for this mana hungry deck. It's not just a slow filtering and a value engine.
I think that list would be worth testing if you cut some of the knots and all of the anticipates for 1 cmc can trips and a snare and/or some other 1-2 cmc interactive card. I'd cut something to play a search or two. Playing 1 settle the wreckage over the 4th verdict is probably better since you play 4 cryptic and 4 snapcasters.
Currently the sorcery speed cards have proven their worth, so trying to go more instant speed will be met with criticism.
Mtgo modern challenge has better data, but we need multiple weeks of data to draw any conclusions from it.
The best way to get data is to post your experiences and admit when you played vs good/bad opponents and when you made bad decisions to give a real perspective on the decks performance.
Crushing scrubs in FNM doesn't mean anything but going 9-1 vs the top 3 players in you LGS means a lot. A 60% win rate in friendly leagues has some value, but doing that in comp leagues has more value.
It does seem like there are less artifact decks (on mtgo) . So I don't think three grudges are needed.
What do you cut to play ssg?
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DWWoHs8VAAA0aHX.jpg:large
Here's Mcwinsauce's list which he has 5-0'd twice.
https://i.imgur.com/FWDGt6R.png
I was impressed with how well McLaren's deck worked. He was streaming so he made a few mistakes.
For UW lists I like Bennyhillz' the most. I can't give up revelation as it's such a great stabilizer. And the miser terminus seems it adds percentage points against bogles, dredge and hollow one decks. I guess runed halo was similar in that regard too.
I think breach is pretty good. It has a combo finish to beat the unfair decks quickly. And it's strong against the other UWx decks. I know UW control pre Jace unbanning had a terrible match up vs breach. And since both decks now get jace, it's probably an even trade at the worst. The esper lists could be a problem, as discard, lingering souls and liliana are annoying, but then 3 color decks get wrecked by blood moon.
I've been messing around in the practice room and friendly leagues and watching a ton of people on twitch stream Jace decks. Nothing has been standing out that much. I think these streamers lose percentage points streaming making wrong plays while reading the chat. Perhaps these controlling Jace decks are better than they appear. But in my experience i've been losing the least with a UR moon deck. I think being proactive is where you want to be, as you don't know what threats you need to stop currently. However I think everyone has 3-4 dispels in their board now, I wonder if there's some sideboard tech you can play. Young pyromancer might be viable, though the 17th modern challenge list only has 2 slots for midrange/controlling decks.
I haven't had a chance to play much, i'm waiting for someone to publish a list that looks amazing. Bennyhillz list is probably solid but it seems boring. I tested my ancestral version a little bit and lowered the curve a bit. But then I got punished by the path + mana leak non-combo. I also wanted to be cute and play mana tithe, but that card is not playable when you're playing path.
I have been watching a lot of streams (and vods) play with Jace and BBE, and it was funny to just watch them get rolled, or roll over the opponent with Jace. Jace looks pretty sweet in the taking turns deck.
I think with the meta currently being so crazy (online) you just want to be proactive and tap out. And I think Nassif and another steamer wanted to cut a colonnade to not fall behind in tempo. You don't know what the good answer cards are. That's why you can justify playing GotT. You really want to cast a spell every turn in the game, and there are very few good 3 cmc cards you can play in UW (unless you count snapcaster). I don't know if detention sphere is that good anymore, I loved it vs grixis shadow and storm since it was an out to their nut draws. But GDS and storm seem to be on the decline? Looking at other blue control decks that can play Jace, UR, and Jeskai, there are so few good three drops to play (electrolyze, blood moon, geist). And all these decks just load up on the 4 drop slot (jace, cryptic, sweepers, other walkers). I just found it interesting that there aren't that many good 3 cmc cards to play in blue based control decks. Maybe UB, esper or sultai will be a thing and then there's liliana. Esper has esper charm and lingering souls. I love esper charm but i'm not sold on it. Lingering souls is bad vs half the decks in the format.
That's enough rambling for now.