This thread has been great popcorn reading; thanks guys. I'm glad I stumbled on it by accident by seeing ( N_S )'s sig.
I post as someone who lurks at the rumor mill and standard forum but rarely posts anything. I also post as someone who is currently a moderator on Kongregate and has been a moderator on other gaming sites in the past.
The bottom line is: you guys can defend the Gutter all you want, but it should have never been created in the 1st place. The administration that created it in the 1st place was very shortsited about the ramifications of such a place. The forum's I've modded at before would NEVER allow such behavior associated associated with thier forum. There should never be a part of the foruim free from rules. Those rules are there for the protection of both the site and its members.
I think you people really need step back and realize that this forum is 1st and foremost a gaming forum. People come to this forum 1 and 1A to discuss the happenings of a card game. Not only that, but the game that attracts many people of a younger audience. My best friend's 13 year old Nephew is an avid Magic player and stops by this forum daily. What's to stop him from hearing about the gutter, sending in a fake information, and becomming a member. Children of that age have a very fragile self esteem and a wrong move in there could definitely cause issues.
As to the Mod thread 'bashing' other members. I halfway support this. Mod's do need a place to discuss problematic members, what they should do with them, etc. However, this thread should also stay civil. A moderator should ideally be a beacon to the community, a member that stands above other members. When these guys are skirting around the forum rules, it makes it difficult for the community to respect thier authority.
1 more thing. I have seen people bash the admin for a clan incedent. Seriously guys, ever heard of politics? I've been in clans, and politics are always involved. I have no information and don't care to pick sides, but if the admin hadn't been involved noone would care. Stuff happens and clans fall apart. I will say that in one forum I was at with an online game, they admin refused to play competatively so that they could never have drama or be accused of cheating in events run by the forum.
So that's the 2 cents from a random lurker that just stops by to check out new cards and random Standard decks from time to time.
I have a VERY similar mono black list that I run. I love running lashwrithe and essence harvest together. I run mine with 23 lands and and I haven't had many mana issues.
I will say if you are running blood artist and not running killing wave then you are not playing the deck to its full potential. I've won many games turn 5 or 6 just dropping killing wave with 1-2 blood artist on the field. Everyone is playing killing wave because it works. I play it for X=0, sac my field, and just win.
If anything gets hit June 20th it would be Ponder, as the card is already banned in Modern, but since Ponder will rotate in October I doubt even that will get Banned
I kept thinking they would do a sweep and hit both Geist Of Saint Traft and Snapcaster Mage to hurt Delver decks, but now that I have seen the deck and played it (granted I play UG Splinterfright) the deck is not as powerful as feared and actually pretty easy to beat
This may be because I have seen MGI swing for kill on turn 4 with an 11/11 Glistner Elf that had hexproof and was unblockable, I have done the same with 2 Ghoultrees on turn 5 to Delver
My friend went 1-2, 2-0, 2-0, 20 with angel delver placing 2nd in FNM with angel delver losing only to UB zombies with blood artist.
In testing the previous Sunday, we tested the same deck versus my UG splinterfright and mono black zombies. The mono black zombies went 7-2 versus delver and UG splinterfright proved to be a pretty even matchup with his choice of spectral flight for GoST being the tipping point in his favor.
Was the deck opressive? Absolutely not. Now some games when it gets a perfect draw it can be absolutely unfun to play, but isn't any deck in this situation?
Delver is the best deck out there, but it far from unbeatable and I can actually say that moving to the angel build makes the deck stronger but somewhat less consistant overall. When it had stalker, it has a turn 2 play to get damage on the board (other than snapcaster) and now it seems it can misfire and go several turns without damage on the board, especially if turn one delver gets gutshotted, tracically slipped, etc.
I've been working on a mono black zombie for some time since AVR came out. I've thought about switching to BR, but the lashwrithe/essence harvest combo has been too good not to keep using; it just plain wins games. My early attempts had a distinct weakness at the 2 drop slot but after seeing the success of blood artist decks, I'm tring to combine the lethality of lashwrithe/essence harvest with blood artist/killing wave all in 1 deck.
This is the deck I have been playing with the last few days. It has the fast zombie aggro as plan A, with blood artist and essence harvest for silly wins that come out of nowhere. I feel like it may need a bit more removal in certain situations, but with the massive life gain it usually isn't a problem.
I have the same issue with Cemetary Reaper. He's not the best card in the deck, but he does make the other zombies better, gravecrawler more consistant and can make extra bodies for shenanigans with blood artist. I tried soulcage fiend for a while, but can often be as much of a liability as he is a threat. I may could drop reaper to a 2 or 3 of to make room for something else.
Tragic slip is my main form of creature hate. I like it since it can drop quick and kill birds, delvers, champions, etc. but also take out big guys if i need it to. I feel I want more options here, but I don't want to remove any of the critters either.
Bloodflow Connoisseur is a card I'm testing right now. It gives me a free sac outlet that can also grow large very fast. With another zombie out gravecrawler become B for a permanent +1/+1. If blood artistis also out, you can do a healthy amount of burn by sacing gravecrawler to Bloodflow Connoisseur. I'm not sure if its better than mortarpod, but with the free sac outlet, it has potential. I really need to test her more.
I post as someone who lurks at the rumor mill and standard forum but rarely posts anything. I also post as someone who is currently a moderator on Kongregate and has been a moderator on other gaming sites in the past.
The bottom line is: you guys can defend the Gutter all you want, but it should have never been created in the 1st place. The administration that created it in the 1st place was very shortsited about the ramifications of such a place. The forum's I've modded at before would NEVER allow such behavior associated associated with thier forum. There should never be a part of the foruim free from rules. Those rules are there for the protection of both the site and its members.
I think you people really need step back and realize that this forum is 1st and foremost a gaming forum. People come to this forum 1 and 1A to discuss the happenings of a card game. Not only that, but the game that attracts many people of a younger audience. My best friend's 13 year old Nephew is an avid Magic player and stops by this forum daily. What's to stop him from hearing about the gutter, sending in a fake information, and becomming a member. Children of that age have a very fragile self esteem and a wrong move in there could definitely cause issues.
As to the Mod thread 'bashing' other members. I halfway support this. Mod's do need a place to discuss problematic members, what they should do with them, etc. However, this thread should also stay civil. A moderator should ideally be a beacon to the community, a member that stands above other members. When these guys are skirting around the forum rules, it makes it difficult for the community to respect thier authority.
1 more thing. I have seen people bash the admin for a clan incedent. Seriously guys, ever heard of politics? I've been in clans, and politics are always involved. I have no information and don't care to pick sides, but if the admin hadn't been involved noone would care. Stuff happens and clans fall apart. I will say that in one forum I was at with an online game, they admin refused to play competatively so that they could never have drama or be accused of cheating in events run by the forum.
So that's the 2 cents from a random lurker that just stops by to check out new cards and random Standard decks from time to time.
I will say if you are running blood artist and not running killing wave then you are not playing the deck to its full potential. I've won many games turn 5 or 6 just dropping killing wave with 1-2 blood artist on the field. Everyone is playing killing wave because it works. I play it for X=0, sac my field, and just win.
My friend went 1-2, 2-0, 2-0, 20 with angel delver placing 2nd in FNM with angel delver losing only to UB zombies with blood artist.
In testing the previous Sunday, we tested the same deck versus my UG splinterfright and mono black zombies. The mono black zombies went 7-2 versus delver and UG splinterfright proved to be a pretty even matchup with his choice of spectral flight for GoST being the tipping point in his favor.
Was the deck opressive? Absolutely not. Now some games when it gets a perfect draw it can be absolutely unfun to play, but isn't any deck in this situation?
Delver is the best deck out there, but it far from unbeatable and I can actually say that moving to the angel build makes the deck stronger but somewhat less consistant overall. When it had stalker, it has a turn 2 play to get damage on the board (other than snapcaster) and now it seems it can misfire and go several turns without damage on the board, especially if turn one delver gets gutshotted, tracically slipped, etc.
Does a ban need to happen, absolutely not.
I've been working on a mono black zombie for some time since AVR came out. I've thought about switching to BR, but the lashwrithe/essence harvest combo has been too good not to keep using; it just plain wins games. My early attempts had a distinct weakness at the 2 drop slot but after seeing the success of blood artist decks, I'm tring to combine the lethality of lashwrithe/essence harvest with blood artist/killing wave all in 1 deck.
1 cost
4x Gravecrawler
4x Diregraf Ghoul
2 cost
3x Blood Artist
3x Highborn Ghoul
4x Geralf's Messenger
4x Cemetary Reaper
2x Bloodflow Connoisseur
Artifacts (3):
3x Lashwrithe
4x Tragic slip
3x Essence Harvest
3x Killing Wave
Land (23):
23x Swamp
This is the deck I have been playing with the last few days. It has the fast zombie aggro as plan A, with blood artist and essence harvest for silly wins that come out of nowhere. I feel like it may need a bit more removal in certain situations, but with the massive life gain it usually isn't a problem.
Let me explain some choices.
For a zombie deck, 4x of Gravecrawler, Diregraph Ghoul, and Geralf's Messenger are musts.
For the direct damage package, I have 3x each of lashwrithe, blood artist, essence harvest, and killing wave. Not sure about these numbers yet. I'm thinking I may want a 4th blood artist.
I'm not a fan of highborn ghoul, but there really isn't much better to run. Porcelain Legionaire is nice and definitely a set in the sideboard, but highborn ghoul is essentially unblockable and helps for consistancy with gravecrawler.
I have the same issue with Cemetary Reaper. He's not the best card in the deck, but he does make the other zombies better, gravecrawler more consistant and can make extra bodies for shenanigans with blood artist. I tried soulcage fiend for a while, but can often be as much of a liability as he is a threat. I may could drop reaper to a 2 or 3 of to make room for something else.
Tragic slip is my main form of creature hate. I like it since it can drop quick and kill birds, delvers, champions, etc. but also take out big guys if i need it to. I feel I want more options here, but I don't want to remove any of the critters either.
Bloodflow Connoisseur is a card I'm testing right now. It gives me a free sac outlet that can also grow large very fast. With another zombie out gravecrawler become B for a permanent +1/+1. If blood artistis also out, you can do a healthy amount of burn by sacing gravecrawler to Bloodflow Connoisseur. I'm not sure if its better than mortarpod, but with the free sac outlet, it has potential. I really need to test her more.
Any suggestions or thoughts?