Currently in my Balthor deck ACC is around 3.9. I'm not really sure I could get it much lower without reducing card quality, but since I'm playing 40 lands I figure that Bob shouldn't be that damning.
Most of all, I think I'll add him to the deck just to see the look on people's faces when they see him in a Commander game.
With 40 lands and a curve of 3.9, you should average to about 2.3 damage per reveal with Bob. In the grand scheme 2.3 damage per turn over time isn't bad, although a few 7 drops in a row will hurt. Ideally I'd like to work that number to a shock per turn, which at 40 lands is doable at 3.4. Since you run a reanimator, cutting top end is more difficult, but its still definitely doable. I dropped Korlash from 3.8 to 2.9 and found an overall faster deck, more playable options in hand, and more fun due to having said options.
If you'd like me to look over your list, feel free to shoot me a PM.
So here are the list I currently have sleeved up. Its functional and it wins games, but its not 100% optimized yet. Feel free to critique it to death and help me improve it. 2 things for sure I need are some dual lands and to get the future sight I traded for and forgot to pick up.
So, what is your average casting cost in the decks in which you pack Bob?
My Korlash deck runs with a curve of 2.9. If/when I make the move with Chainer, I will shoot for about 3.4 or less and hopefully about 3.2 and its currently at 3.6.
Bob scares me TBH. I like the sure deal of one card for one life that's such a black staple.
I assume that Bob is better in duel-oriented EDH decks... I played a four man game a little while back where one of the guys running a monoblack deck dropped Bob on turn 2 and proceeded to reveal Extinction one turn, Rune-Scarred Demon the next, Bloodgift Demon after that. His loud, incredulous groaning didn't help his case as the rest of us decided it would be funny to take him out as quickly as possible, since Bob had already done half the work for us.
Yeah, I know that's a worst case scenario; but I prefer the relative safety of cards like Phyrexian Arena and even Underworld Connections. Plus I don't like everyone else to see what I'm drawing.
Losing life is an occupational hazard when playing black. I just need 1 life to win, and I have won games from single digits countless times. That said, you really do have to do a serious curve massage when running Bob/Tutelage. Cheaper becomes better, as long as you are not sacrificing card quality along the process. What I found is that lowering the curve to accommodate for Bob, it made the deck faster and overall stronger in the process.
I used to think you could put whatever in a commander deck. Then I realized this thing called a mana curve is just as important here and everything those guys said was a joke.
'Spirit of EDH' is a joke. Play at the level your playgroup is comfortable with. If someone comes into my croup with a janky Wurm tribal, I'll hand them one of my decks that's at a more competitive level. IF their deck is too strong, they also get a new deck next game.
So I swapped around about 15 cards to make the deck melek friendly and swapped out aggro cards for draw and storm cards. 1st game out, I get a big Mind's Desire and then get Ignite Memories off of Mind's Desire. It was good times. However, they guys were not so happy at the 30+ minutes it took that turn to fully resolve to kill them, lol.
I probably still need to tweak my list a bit, but I beat 2 of the most powerful decks my friends have in the process, so its potent already. I'll have to post my current list for suggestions later when I get home.
I play one in my Korlash, Heir to Blackblade deck and its one of the top 5 cards in the deck. Games he comes down turn 2 and sticks a few turns, I tend to win with the sheer card advantage. He requires a bit of curve evaluation and maybe a top to work best, but he's actually less suicidal than one would think. COmming down on turn 2 and drawing turn 3 is what makes him so powerful compared to even Phyrexian Arena
I'm actually thinking about purchasing another and putting in my chainer deck with as positive as he's been in my korlash build. I wouldn't say I'd run him in every Bx deck, but if the curve is relatively low and draw is important (when is it not) he's a great add.
On a similar note, Dark Tutelage is basically a Phyrexian Arena that replaces 1 life with ~2-3 depending on how the deck curves out. From my experience, in any deck that wants Bob, tutelage is also an add.
Are you sure any old draw engine wouldn't have sufficed?
My problem with Seer's Sundial is the math. Even if you're putting 50 lands into your deck, by the time you can start to use Sundial without slowing yourself down too much, you probably have about 40 lands left in your deck. In this situation, each time you draw a card, you have a 40% chance of being able to pay 2 for another card. Mathematically, this is worse than getting a single new card each turn, even when you factor in the unlikely chance that you can draw a chain of cards in a single turn. I'll admit that if you're running cards that put many lands into your hand, Sundial gets better, but even then, only marginally so. Even worse, there are cards that offer that, plus they cost less mana, plus they have added benefits.
Staff of Nin is free to use once you play it, and it allows you to remove utility guys and chump blockers.
Ohran Viper is a lot cheaper, comes down earlier, and is an excellent blocker.
Hystrodon is cheaper, has a decent body, and is reliable because it has Trample.
Drumhunter is cheap, accelerates your mana, and is reliable if you run enough large creatures.
In addition, all of the creatures above can be easily tutored for, and I haven't even gotten into burst draw. Just because Sundial is decent doesn't mean it's the best option. Its main advantage over most of the above is that it doesn't get caught up in a board wipe, but there's still Staff of Nin plus all of the available burst draw to get around that.
Hystrodon and Ohran Viper rely on what your opponent is doing to draw cards. I never like cards that rely on what's going on with my opponent's side unless they are game breaking. Staff of Nin gives only 1 draw per turn, starting next turn. Magus of the Library requires 7 cards in hand, which doesn't happen for me all too often. Drumhunter only situationaly draws a card, and only on the next turn.
Seer's Sundial has the big benefits in that it fires the turn we play it (if we have the mana to do so) and we can use it multiple times per turn (which I do). Its way down the list, but as Swift says, its the best we have.
Memory Jar in a mono green deck is a BIG nono if you can't win the turn you play it, and 9 time out of 10, we won't.
From what I've seen, GBx is the best dredge color combo with Jarad and Karador likely some of your better options.
For mill, UBx seems like the best combo with a commander like Wrexial or Lazav as a poster child.
Killing stuff probably fits best into mono black, or maybe WB. Chainer is a poster child for this style, and maybe the new Teysa or ghost council would fit well for WB.
NEed to get my hands on Draining Whelk and Beast Within. And planning on playing some EDH tonight.
I'm liking your deck list. I'm interested in a game play update when you have a chance. I may try out a few cards you are running like Asceticism and Simic Signet for more protection.
Here's a question I've been pondering. How many and which non-counter related creatures/artifacts can we get away with running? Would we be better as a more all-in counter deck, or as a more good stuff deck with Sylvan Primordial, etc.
I only got 1 game with Vorel over the weekend, not enough to make judgement yet. I was doing pretty good, and then a Damia player stole my Vorel and made my life complicated. I really need a few more games to see how things shake up. The two things I did get out of the game, Doubling season is an absolute win card in this deck, and IO can get guys up to 15-20 power quite easily when things are going well. I'll try to post the list I played tomorrow when I have my deck handy.
Same **** with time spiral. The price gave is just different.
Time Spiral exiles itself; the effect is the same, but the shenanigans work out differently. In the right setup, you could cast Timetwister many times in one game. I would say they odds are low, but I've cast Wheel of fortune 4 times in a game with my izzet deck before so such shenanigans are possible.
My playgroup usually enjoys wheel effects and the only one that ever gets countered is the very evil Molten psyche. My meta is also combo light. I could imagine combo players a bit more upset over losing their hands.
I'll give Hermit Druid a shot again. He feels right in the 2cc slot. I included him briefly in the list but never saw him in a game before axing him
In regards to the cyclers I have tried the cycling lands and they were not to my liking. The optimal play at 2 mana is to play a body or Sylvan Library. The second best play is a tutor. Cycling is our third choice. The main problem I have with the cyclers is we pay 2 mana to replace a card in our hand while gaining no true card advantage or body in play, until we get to Life from the Loam or Crucible.
Yes i know the limitations on Seer's Sundial. The up front cost is hideous. However I carry 50 lands and hitting one should be 50% after its played. 2 mana per card is palatable when we can tap the land being played for 1. The greatest problem with the Sundial is the turn we play it we are unable to take full advantage of the cards drawn while in the early game. And if we are not holding a land in hand it may not do a thing. However when we get going we can draw an insane number of cards mid-late game with Scapeshift, Primordial, Thawing Glaciers + Stone-Seeder, Fetch + Crucible of Worlds
Even after mulling I got a crappy hand tonight, but I was able to squeak out a slow win on the back of draw off of Seer's Sundial. I was stalled at 4 lands with more expensive guys in hand, but sundial gave me the gas to get established, draw into Horn of greed, and I ended with like 16 lands out when I for the 2nd time in two games won off of ultimating Mr. Primal Hunter after Boundless realms was countered while my Rampaging Baloths was out out. Moral of the story, Seer's Sundial was the MVP that game.
Sounds like a great place to run Wurmcoil Engine in Chainer. Vengeful Pharoah could be pretty funny as well. Just make sure you run enough sac outlets.
Those sound like great options. If you run enough draw, Vengeful Pharoah can do some fun stuff without halting your plan too much. I used it in standard to some success.
I had the most infuriating game tonight playing with some different guys...After starting with a mediocre hand, I got Swords to plowsharesed, murdered, counterspelled, and Wear // Teared over and over and literally could not keep anything on the field. Two of those guys seemed like all they did was draw and kill stuff...usually mine (seriously spread the wealth). Chainer never stuck, they even nuked poor old Bloodline Keeper. This game may make me rethink smokestack just a bit. When a guy gets 10 billion permanents out and you top deck smokestack late game, that's just not the option you are wanting.
On a different front, I got the draw spells in the mail. I have the 4 draw spells, All is Dust and Memory Jar set aside to try in the deck, and I seriously want to try out my Dark Confidant. I got Confidant out turn 2 in Korlash tonight, and followed by a turn 3 Phyrexian Arena the card just carried me to huge advantage and a win.
I orginally had Champion of Lambholt in the deck and I was pondering Phantom Nantuko earlier. I wrote it off for some reason or another and it didn't make the cut. But I'm going to go back in and revise my strategy for future games. Expedition Map is a almost auto-include only if you don't have enough for all your decks. I find its so useful finding Scrying Sheets, Emeria, [insert good nonbasic here]. It's just phenomial.
I need to redesign the deck later this evening. (I swear I'll post it today! X_x) In terms of removal there isn't much in the deck. I just threw a buncha cards in that dealt with +1/+1 counters and didn't give a damn for anything else. I got lucky I guess I was able to stick Trik and had a blast. But would love to fine tune the deck so I can have 6-10 good threats and have cards to back up and protect my evil machinations!
Counterspells seem especially important to the plan. We can get out of hand in a hurry, but need backup to keep wraths away and stop spot removal and tucks, especially on Vorel. The deck doesn't fold without Vorel, but it becomes much less good in a hurry.
What are your thought on Illusionists Bracers and Rings of Brighthearth to get more use out of Vorel and a few other cards we have. Also, with all the +1/+1 counters floating around, Experiment Krajj seems like a great backup to vorel to generate even more counters. I don't have one, but Sakishima, the Imposter could possibly fill this role as well.
With 40 lands and a curve of 3.9, you should average to about 2.3 damage per reveal with Bob. In the grand scheme 2.3 damage per turn over time isn't bad, although a few 7 drops in a row will hurt. Ideally I'd like to work that number to a shock per turn, which at 40 lands is doable at 3.4. Since you run a reanimator, cutting top end is more difficult, but its still definitely doable. I dropped Korlash from 3.8 to 2.9 and found an overall faster deck, more playable options in hand, and more fun due to having said options.
If you'd like me to look over your list, feel free to shoot me a PM.
6 Melek, Izzet Paragon
Creatures:
2 Goblin Electromancer
2 Walking Atlas
3 Guttersnipe
4 Talrand, Sky Summoner
5 River Kelpie
Artifacts:
1 Sol Ring
1 Wayfarer's Bauble
2 Helm of Awakening
2 Runechanter's Pike
2 Sapphire Medallion
2 Scroll Rack
3 Coalition Relic
3 Chromatic Lantern
3 Crystal Ball
3 Diviner's Wand
4 Vedalken Orrery
5 Gilded Lotus
5 Stone Calendar
Enchantments:
3 Secrets of the Dead
4 Leyline of Anticipation
5 Arcane Melee
5 Spellweaver Volute
Instants:
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Pongify
1 Rapid Hybridization
1 Skred
2 Arcane Denial
2 Cyclonic Rift
2 Impulse
2 Increasing Vengence
2 Snap
2 Twincast
3 Capsize
3 Cerebral Vortex
3 Chaos Warp
3 Dream Fracture
3 Frabtic Search
3 Long-Term Plans
3 Oona's Grace
3 Reiterate
4 Fact or Fiction
4 Overblaze
4 Plagerize
4 Rewind
4 Turnabout
4 Wild Ricochet
5 Thoughtflare
1 Faithless Looting
1 Flame Jab
1 Gamble
2 Merchant Scroll
3 Fabricate
3 Molten Psyche
3 Wheel of Fortune
3 Windfall
4 Deep Analysis
4 Mystic Retrieval
4 Past in Flames
5 Ignite Memories
5 Reforge the Soul
6 Mind's Desire
6 Time Spiral
Planeswalkers:
5 Tezzeret the Seeker
Lands:
0 Cephalid Coliseum
0 Darksteel Citadel
0 Great Furnace
0 Inkmoth Nexus
0 Mishra's Factory
0 Snow-Covered Island x13
0 Snow-Covered Mountain x13
0 Reliquary Tower
0 Riptide Library
0 Seat of the Synod
0 Terrain Generator
My Korlash deck runs with a curve of 2.9. If/when I make the move with Chainer, I will shoot for about 3.4 or less and hopefully about 3.2 and its currently at 3.6.
From my experience: Necropotence >>> Dark Confidant > Phyrexian Arena form my experience.
Losing life is an occupational hazard when playing black. I just need 1 life to win, and I have won games from single digits countless times. That said, you really do have to do a serious curve massage when running Bob/Tutelage. Cheaper becomes better, as long as you are not sacrificing card quality along the process. What I found is that lowering the curve to accommodate for Bob, it made the deck faster and overall stronger in the process.
'Spirit of EDH' is a joke. Play at the level your playgroup is comfortable with. If someone comes into my croup with a janky Wurm tribal, I'll hand them one of my decks that's at a more competitive level. IF their deck is too strong, they also get a new deck next game.
I probably still need to tweak my list a bit, but I beat 2 of the most powerful decks my friends have in the process, so its potent already. I'll have to post my current list for suggestions later when I get home.
I'm actually thinking about purchasing another and putting in my chainer deck with as positive as he's been in my korlash build. I wouldn't say I'd run him in every Bx deck, but if the curve is relatively low and draw is important (when is it not) he's a great add.
On a similar note, Dark Tutelage is basically a Phyrexian Arena that replaces 1 life with ~2-3 depending on how the deck curves out. From my experience, in any deck that wants Bob, tutelage is also an add.
Hystrodon and Ohran Viper rely on what your opponent is doing to draw cards. I never like cards that rely on what's going on with my opponent's side unless they are game breaking. Staff of Nin gives only 1 draw per turn, starting next turn. Magus of the Library requires 7 cards in hand, which doesn't happen for me all too often. Drumhunter only situationaly draws a card, and only on the next turn.
Seer's Sundial has the big benefits in that it fires the turn we play it (if we have the mana to do so) and we can use it multiple times per turn (which I do). Its way down the list, but as Swift says, its the best we have.
Memory Jar in a mono green deck is a BIG nono if you can't win the turn you play it, and 9 time out of 10, we won't.
For mill, UBx seems like the best combo with a commander like Wrexial or Lazav as a poster child.
Killing stuff probably fits best into mono black, or maybe WB. Chainer is a poster child for this style, and maybe the new Teysa or ghost council would fit well for WB.
I'm liking your deck list. I'm interested in a game play update when you have a chance. I may try out a few cards you are running like Asceticism and Simic Signet for more protection.
Here's a question I've been pondering. How many and which non-counter related creatures/artifacts can we get away with running? Would we be better as a more all-in counter deck, or as a more good stuff deck with Sylvan Primordial, etc.
I only got 1 game with Vorel over the weekend, not enough to make judgement yet. I was doing pretty good, and then a Damia player stole my Vorel and made my life complicated. I really need a few more games to see how things shake up. The two things I did get out of the game, Doubling season is an absolute win card in this deck, and IO can get guys up to 15-20 power quite easily when things are going well. I'll try to post the list I played tomorrow when I have my deck handy.
Time Spiral exiles itself; the effect is the same, but the shenanigans work out differently. In the right setup, you could cast Timetwister many times in one game. I would say they odds are low, but I've cast Wheel of fortune 4 times in a game with my izzet deck before so such shenanigans are possible.
My playgroup usually enjoys wheel effects and the only one that ever gets countered is the very evil Molten psyche. My meta is also combo light. I could imagine combo players a bit more upset over losing their hands.
Even after mulling I got a crappy hand tonight, but I was able to squeak out a slow win on the back of draw off of Seer's Sundial. I was stalled at 4 lands with more expensive guys in hand, but sundial gave me the gas to get established, draw into Horn of greed, and I ended with like 16 lands out when I for the 2nd time in two games won off of ultimating Mr. Primal Hunter after Boundless realms was countered while my Rampaging Baloths was out out. Moral of the story, Seer's Sundial was the MVP that game.
Those sound like great options. If you run enough draw, Vengeful Pharoah can do some fun stuff without halting your plan too much. I used it in standard to some success.
I had the most infuriating game tonight playing with some different guys...After starting with a mediocre hand, I got Swords to plowsharesed, murdered, counterspelled, and Wear // Teared over and over and literally could not keep anything on the field. Two of those guys seemed like all they did was draw and kill stuff...usually mine (seriously spread the wealth). Chainer never stuck, they even nuked poor old Bloodline Keeper. This game may make me rethink smokestack just a bit. When a guy gets 10 billion permanents out and you top deck smokestack late game, that's just not the option you are wanting.
On a different front, I got the draw spells in the mail. I have the 4 draw spells, All is Dust and Memory Jar set aside to try in the deck, and I seriously want to try out my Dark Confidant. I got Confidant out turn 2 in Korlash tonight, and followed by a turn 3 Phyrexian Arena the card just carried me to huge advantage and a win.
Psychosis Crawler and Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind say hi, also a fun time with with molten psyche.
Counterspells seem especially important to the plan. We can get out of hand in a hurry, but need backup to keep wraths away and stop spot removal and tucks, especially on Vorel. The deck doesn't fold without Vorel, but it becomes much less good in a hurry.
What are your thought on Illusionists Bracers and Rings of Brighthearth to get more use out of Vorel and a few other cards we have. Also, with all the +1/+1 counters floating around, Experiment Krajj seems like a great backup to vorel to generate even more counters. I don't have one, but Sakishima, the Imposter could possibly fill this role as well.