I tested out heavy ramp a bit tonight on cockatrice. It worked well but it wasn't that fun for me. Maybe an aggro-control style would work. Off the top of my head the candidates that come to mind are Abyssal Persecutor, Phyrexian Obliterator, Grave Titan, and equipment.
I play Abyssal Persecutor, I've won games off of him, but I'm still not 100% sold that he is a good idea. Phyrexian Obliterator is great until the 1st time he gets stolen. No one will block him, ever, and people will remove him before attacking into you. Grave Titan is a mixed bag for me. He effectively gives 10 power for 6 mana, but in practice, he has been a late cut in all 3 of my black decks. If you are going aggro, cheaper is usually better.
I hadn't got around to posting it yet. Been a busy last week or so.
I'm quite interested in coming up with a strong Vorel build, but quite honesty I'm still not positive what the best 99 cards to put with him are yet. I haven't had the time to figure it out, but I have a decent start on the theory. We want 1.) Cards that generate +1 counters (graft and evolve guys for example) 2.) cards that multiply our +1 counters (proliferate, doubling season) and 3.) cards to protect our board position while we ramp up (counters, propaganda). Since we can proliferate and double our counters several ways, its also nice to sneak in a few other cards that have counters, but not the +1 variety (Level up and storage lands being good examples) without sacrificing the main focus of the deck.
The deck list is still quite rough and dirty, but it is functional and had a few good showings in my testing. Feel free to poke at what you see.
I played a game the other night where I got turn 2 Thrummingbird and turn 3 Lighthouse Chronologist. By the time they had removal, I'd taken about 4 extra turns, had vorel pumping guys up past 20/20 and was mowing them over.
It may be just my build I'm working on, but I find the deck to be quite aggressive and it can go from 0 to lethal quite quickly and with counterspells to back up the board state. I'm one game I was totally swinging multiple guys for over 50/50 while the table watched in disbelief. Vorel is mean, very mean; quite frankly more kill on sight than even kaalia with a deck built around him. One game, I got my turn 3 vorel tucked to Oblation and still won through the sheer power and synergy of the deck. Blue and green are arguably the two best colors in commander, so its hard to do it wrong.
Foil Blossom is pimp as ****. Personally, I'd run cards that take advantage of having a steady stream of flyers, like the Swords and Nightmare Lash or something. Maybe Batterskull. But I haven't put a ton of thought into how to best capitalize on the Blossom.
In my early build of Chainer, I ran lashwrithe and several other equipment. I really liked them. However at a table of 4+ players, pointing damage at 1 person is just not what a MBC deck wants to do. I gave up the equipment, doubled down on the removal, and the deck got better for it. I later built Korlash just so I could use the lashwrithe and other equipment I had laying around.
I'm ditching the stax element because it takes away fun from the table. I'd rather let the table do their stuff and then do bigger or faster stuff, than to prevent them from doing it at all. As a control deck we have some of the most broken things ever printed so I'm sure the potential's there.
I got a foil bitterblossom a few months ago and its one of my favorite cards. So I'm going to try to figure out how to justify its inclusion haha.
Fair enough on the stax elements.
Here's all you need to justify Bitterblossom: Skullclamp. 2 additional cards per turn for 1 life and 1 mana sounds great.
I played a ton of EDH this weekend and decided to cut the stax elements in favor of ramp and big spells. I still want my deck to be essentially mono-black-control. But it feels really bad accelerating out braids. Contamination is probably staying in though which probably warrents keeping bitterblossom and bloodghast.
Question: What exactly led to your removal of the stax package? I've bee tossing the idea around myself as i look at retooling my deck a bit.
I agree with most of your statements, however imo Contamination doesn't warrant keeping Bitterblossom. I made essentially the same transformation you appear to be contemplating a while back, and Blossom just doesn't hold up without the stax elements. Chainer alone is enough with Contamination. Blossom does allow for a t3 Contam lock, but that takes a craaazy good draw, and it is subpar otherwise. I think it would be a lot better if we played swords (namely Fire/Ice and Feast/Famine), but since I only own one copy of each and they are in my Rafiq deck, my version does not support Blossom. See how it goes in your testing and determine how we need to modify the deck to support Blossom. It has to be doable, it's a very good card, I just have not liked it in my version.
I tend to like bitterblossom even if without the stax package. I've won a game or two off of that constant stream of blockers while I built up my board presence.
I'd like to run no more than 40 creatures because I already have a 60 creature Animar deck. With 40, will it still work? Most of the non-creature spells would be global enchantments, spot removal and sweepers.
Karador can work just fine with 40 creatures. You have spells like Vindicate and Demonic Tutor, enchantments like Survival of the fittest, Pernicious Deed, and Sylvan Library that will take up many spots in Karador. Its a creature 1st deck, but its also a rock style control deck that needs toys that just don't exist on creatures to keep control on the board.
If some is clearly winning, we scoop and start another game.
People are quite highly discouraged at scooping to bad board states though. Just last week, a guy scooped as a 'bad' sport' and we made him yank his board back out of his deck box. That kind of behavior is just plain childish.
You are spot on. Karador with green ramp and artifact/enchantment removal, white recursion with blacks draw/tutoring and removal is an exceptionally resilient deck. You can blow up stuff, get blown up, rinse and repeat until after attrition you are rthe only one with gas left.
My chainer deck plays the attrition game in a similar manner, but focuses less on universal removal and more on dead creature abuse.
Yeah, again with TG, the issue becomes if you miss a land drop you undo the good it did you, since you aren't actually getting new cards from it. If you drop 2 swamps from it, then miss 2 land drops over the course of the game, you are back to -1 swamp. If you are drawing like a fiend, it seems very solid, I just have a hard time seeing how we can pay for the draw to make it consistent, use it, and still play spells and abilities that affect the game. So I would be interested in seeing the math on if TG actually does net you more swamps than if you didn't have it, or at least with the consistency to justify its inclusion.
As for the Apostle, I like that it's Murder instead of Terror, but the cmc is a huge turn off. I want my utility kill guys to be cheap! I am really looking forward to seeing what M14 has to offer, especially since there won't be the super-heavy multicolored theme that RTR brought (and we STILL got Crypt Ghast from it!)
I definitely wish Demon was 3 or 4 CMC with a smaller body, however there are many games where if Bone shredder was Murder on a stick at a higher CMC I would have won or atleast had a better chance to do so. Its essentially the first unconditional spot removal on a stick we can reuse over and over baring we have a sac outlet handy. At very worst, I will stick it in the deck and find it is too expensive, but bone shredder has been equally irritating against black decks. Its definitely a cards that warrants investigation.
I'm currently testing out Generator, and while I don't think it's going to remain in the deck, it's not quite as bad as made out to be, simply because of the fact that it's a land, and as such, you don't HAVE to activate the ability to generate value out of it. I do think that the value of it goes up dramatically the more card draw you have in your deck. I also think that the value of it goes up dramatically the more artifact mana ramp (worn powerstone, et al) you have in your deck - colourless mana sinks are pretty useful in this deck, I've found.
Satchel, on the other hand, I think is a waste of a perfectly good card slot. I'm not running Scrying sheets, and that does a fair replication of the best-case scenario for satchel, and it doesn't even cost a card. The lifegain is worthless (relative to the mana cost), sheets does (an albeit worse version of) the ramp ability without costing cards, and if I wanted creature tokens, I would play bitterblossom - which both costs less mana to play, AND doesn't cost mana every turn too.
Terrain Generator is definitely the better of the two. For one land drop it does drop your swamp count, but over the course of a game, it can net you several swamps, easily making up for losing the swamp drop. The deck ultimately has a swamps matters theme, and over the course of the game, generator will get more swamps on the field than if it were not in the deck. I run Satchel in Korlash where any and all land ramp is valuable, but I wouldn't be as inclined to run it in chainer due to its inconsistency.
Has anyone seen the M14 spoiler for the new Mythic Demon Shadowborn Demon? It looks like the uber bone shredder we've all wanted forever
Helm of Possession has been utterly fantastic in testing. It's even more nutty with Rings out. Give it a try. It's colorless, so it just deals with everything, and it's a sac outlet, which y'all seem quite high on.
Terrain Generator doesn't seem good at all. It doesn't give you more lands, it just gives you the lands you have slighty (veeery slightly) faster at the cost of wasting entire turns, and is seemingly only useful if you are flooded. Additionally, it's another source of non-swamp mana, which is a no-no unless the land is pretty fantastic. I admit I could seriously be missing something, but gaining tempo at the cost of tempo doesn't seem too good in this deck. I have things to do with my mana, and don't like being strapped each turn.
Satchel sounds even worse, albeit a potential source of card advantage. The 1/1 and the life gain are pointless in my build. I don't run a stax package, I don't run sweet equipment that just need a body, and I assuredly don't need 2 life. There is a 37-38% chance that the activation won't be a complete waste of a turn and mana, but that doesn't seem to warrant a card slot, mana to play, or mana to activate. I miiiight give it a look if it were 0 to play and 0 to activate, but it still seems like a such a poor percentage play.
I may be missing why those cards are good, admittedly. The aforementioned are my thought processes on those selections, as I have given them thought due to the recommendation you all have put forth. I am not the world's best card evaluator. Also, they may work better in your metas and your builds than in mine. They seem like value over time (a lot of time, but if games are going 15ish turns, why not?) guys that I can't afford the time to see the effect of. Again, if my analyses are wrong, absolutely let me know. I could be missing some subtleties, I do that all the time.
Terrain Generator and Druidic Satchel are ramp options in a color that doesn't get much in terms of ramp. We have tons of draw options, hence often several lands in hand, so Terrian Generator lets us put these extra lands to use. When Satchel hits a land, it comes in untapped. Satchel is somewhat of a crap shoot, but I have indirectly won games with its ramp so it does have a place for consideration.
I have helm of possession in my stack of cards I picked up recently. I need to try it somewhere some time. I'm not sure this is the right deck for it, but its worth a try at some point.
War and peace hits the hardest of the lot. When you are playing aggro, the extra damage makes a big difference.
This sounds like a solid plan.
The better aggro creatures I've found in black are Nirkana Revenant, Drana, Kalastria Highborn and Korlash, Heir to Blackblade. X and growth guys give you the most bang for the buck. Even little Nantuko Shade can drop a serious beating late in the game.
I play Abyssal Persecutor, I've won games off of him, but I'm still not 100% sold that he is a good idea. Phyrexian Obliterator is great until the 1st time he gets stolen. No one will block him, ever, and people will remove him before attacking into you. Grave Titan is a mixed bag for me. He effectively gives 10 power for 6 mana, but in practice, he has been a late cut in all 3 of my black decks. If you are going aggro, cheaper is usually better.
Lashwrithe and Sword of Feast and Famine are probably the overall most effective equipment you can run with Nightmare Lash, Strata Scythe, and Sword of Fire and Ice also great options. Strata Scythe seems kinda bad, but it counts opponents lands so the bonus can be large. If you want to commit to the aggro package, Dauthi Embrace is also highly recommended to push the damage through.
I'm quite interested in coming up with a strong Vorel build, but quite honesty I'm still not positive what the best 99 cards to put with him are yet. I haven't had the time to figure it out, but I have a decent start on the theory. We want 1.) Cards that generate +1 counters (graft and evolve guys for example) 2.) cards that multiply our +1 counters (proliferate, doubling season) and 3.) cards to protect our board position while we ramp up (counters, propaganda). Since we can proliferate and double our counters several ways, its also nice to sneak in a few other cards that have counters, but not the +1 variety (Level up and storage lands being good examples) without sacrificing the main focus of the deck.
The deck list is still quite rough and dirty, but it is functional and had a few good showings in my testing. Feel free to poke at what you see.
3 Vorel of the Hull Clade
Creatures:
1 Experiment One
2 Lighthouse Chronologist
2 Zameck Guildmage
2 Thrummingbird
2 Gyre Sage
2 Shambleshark
3 Glider Bairn
3 Renegade Krasis
3 Crocanura
3 Battering Krasis
3 Vigean Graftmage
3 Plaxcaster Frogling
3 Fertilid
3 Simic Manipulator
3 Elusive Krasis
3 Champion of Lambholt
3 Phantom Nantuko
3 Forgotten Ancient
4 Fathom Mage
4 Spike Weaver
4 Spike Breeder
4 Master Biomancer
4 Sporeback Troll
5 Murkfiend Liege
5 Helium Squirter
6 Novijen Sages
6 Prime Speaker Zegana
6 Draining Whelk
6 Experiment Kraj
6 Sphinx of the Magosi
6 Triskelion
7 Cytospawn Shambler
0 Everflowing Chalice
1 Wayfarer's Bauble
1 Expedition Map
2 Contagion Clasp
2 Illusionist's Bracers
2 Lightning Greaves
3 Evolution Vat
3 Simic Cluestone
Enchantments:
3 Propaganda
3 Bred for the Hunt
5 Doubling Season
5 Gutter Grime
5 Inexorable Tide
Instants:
1 Rapid Hybridization
2 Counterspell
2 Simic Charm
3 Hinder
3 Dissipate
3 Faerie Trickery
3 Beast Within
3 Krosan Grip
4 Fuel for Cause
4 Fact or Fiction
3 Kodama's Reach
3 Cultivate
4 Tezzeret's Gambit
4 Skyshroud Claim
4 Increasing Savegery
4 Harmonize
5 Urban Evolution
Lands:
0 Minamoto, School at Water's Edge
It may be just my build I'm working on, but I find the deck to be quite aggressive and it can go from 0 to lethal quite quickly and with counterspells to back up the board state. I'm one game I was totally swinging multiple guys for over 50/50 while the table watched in disbelief. Vorel is mean, very mean; quite frankly more kill on sight than even kaalia with a deck built around him. One game, I got my turn 3 vorel tucked to Oblation and still won through the sheer power and synergy of the deck. Blue and green are arguably the two best colors in commander, so its hard to do it wrong.
In my early build of Chainer, I ran lashwrithe and several other equipment. I really liked them. However at a table of 4+ players, pointing damage at 1 person is just not what a MBC deck wants to do. I gave up the equipment, doubled down on the removal, and the deck got better for it. I later built Korlash just so I could use the lashwrithe and other equipment I had laying around.
Fair enough on the stax elements.
Here's all you need to justify Bitterblossom: Skullclamp. 2 additional cards per turn for 1 life and 1 mana sounds great.
Question: What exactly led to your removal of the stax package? I've bee tossing the idea around myself as i look at retooling my deck a bit.
I tend to like bitterblossom even if without the stax package. I've won a game or two off of that constant stream of blockers while I built up my board presence.
Karador can work just fine with 40 creatures. You have spells like Vindicate and Demonic Tutor, enchantments like Survival of the fittest, Pernicious Deed, and Sylvan Library that will take up many spots in Karador. Its a creature 1st deck, but its also a rock style control deck that needs toys that just don't exist on creatures to keep control on the board.
People are quite highly discouraged at scooping to bad board states though. Just last week, a guy scooped as a 'bad' sport' and we made him yank his board back out of his deck box. That kind of behavior is just plain childish.
You are spot on. Karador with green ramp and artifact/enchantment removal, white recursion with blacks draw/tutoring and removal is an exceptionally resilient deck. You can blow up stuff, get blown up, rinse and repeat until after attrition you are rthe only one with gas left.
My chainer deck plays the attrition game in a similar manner, but focuses less on universal removal and more on dead creature abuse.
I definitely wish Demon was 3 or 4 CMC with a smaller body, however there are many games where if Bone shredder was Murder on a stick at a higher CMC I would have won or atleast had a better chance to do so. Its essentially the first unconditional spot removal on a stick we can reuse over and over baring we have a sac outlet handy. At very worst, I will stick it in the deck and find it is too expensive, but bone shredder has been equally irritating against black decks. Its definitely a cards that warrants investigation.
Terrain Generator is definitely the better of the two. For one land drop it does drop your swamp count, but over the course of a game, it can net you several swamps, easily making up for losing the swamp drop. The deck ultimately has a swamps matters theme, and over the course of the game, generator will get more swamps on the field than if it were not in the deck. I run Satchel in Korlash where any and all land ramp is valuable, but I wouldn't be as inclined to run it in chainer due to its inconsistency.
Has anyone seen the M14 spoiler for the new Mythic Demon Shadowborn Demon? It looks like the uber bone shredder we've all wanted forever
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=498012
Terrain Generator and Druidic Satchel are ramp options in a color that doesn't get much in terms of ramp. We have tons of draw options, hence often several lands in hand, so Terrian Generator lets us put these extra lands to use. When Satchel hits a land, it comes in untapped. Satchel is somewhat of a crap shoot, but I have indirectly won games with its ramp so it does have a place for consideration.
I have helm of possession in my stack of cards I picked up recently. I need to try it somewhere some time. I'm not sure this is the right deck for it, but its worth a try at some point.