I haven't seen anyone mention this combo so I thought I'd put it out there. Granted it's a pretty clunky combo that needs 3 or 4 pieces (something to eat the energy so you can keep going and a win condition. Maybe there's a card that can do both?)
Because it's a 3-4 card combo I think it's essential that it can be put into a deck that can make good use of all the pieces separately. Elves maybe? Some kind of Evolutionary Leap brew? I don't know.
Map could work. Blighted Fen might even be worth trying out for a soft lock with Crucible. Probably waaay too slow but might work against slower disruptive matchups like Jund. But there's only so many colorless lands you can afford to run of course...
It wasn't me who suggested the Trophy Mage into Crucible tech. But I kind of like it. Tron and Scapeshift are notoriously bad matchups and that would definitely help sealing the deal. I do think if you were to include the combo that you probably want 4 GQs or 3 GQs + 1 Tech Edge or something to that extend. My gut tells me that Treasure Mage probably still is the best of the mages but I still think it's worth exploring. If you include a Vedalken Shackles as well, you already have something for almost every matchup to fetch.
In terms of the isochron scepter idea + this, wouldn't you just want to imprint like a desperate ritual under scepter because that's infinite red mana and infinite storm with this out so then you just grapeshot them FTW. Or manamorphose draws your entire deck too since it's mana neutral and it can filter into any color as well.
That makes a lot more sense. That reduces it from a 6 card combo to a 3 card combo plus avoids playing around with fragile mana dorks and making it a subpar Jeskai Ascendancy deck.
Still, I feel that the key is to try to minimize the amount of moving pieces as much as possible. 3 card combos are usually not good enough for Modern. In this case though 2 of the combo pieces are good in a vacuum (Manamorphose and Scepter) so I can see some potential here.
Seems a little too gimmicky. Green mana dorks make a lot more sense to me than playing Myrs. But if we go down that road why not just play combo-elves instead?
I guess that Grand Architect has some potential though. The only problem with him is that he lacks redundancy so you're turning it into a 3 card combo where you only can play 4 of at least two of the combo pieces (plus he dies to Bolt). Grand Architect plus Pili-Pala has been around for a long time and no one has been able to crack that code. I'm not sure that Paradox Engine brings anything new to that table other than some redundancy.
I'm not so sure about the glass canon approach either. On paper I could see this being a turn 4-5 deck (closer to 5 than 4 probably) which is too slow without any disruption. The reason I'm gonna start with a full-on approach is because the support is always harder to figure out than the rest.
I could definitely see Ensnaring Bridge being a thing. Or maybe something like Gigadrowse and Exhaustion since they both protect against counters and fog as well. We probably don't need too much time with protection before we go off.
I've tried a similar deck where I ran 7 rocks and 7 charge buffs, which seemed to be somewhat consistent. That's 2 slots freed. Voltaic Key is also another card that could be shaved down to a couple. It is really powerful and can ramp you up insanely fast but with Engine it might not be necessary to run the full set.
Spy is good when Engine resolves, but the deck should be winning at that point anyway by chaining BSZ's together. I also don't think that a 4 drop that dies to Bolt is playable. Especially in a deck that has no other creatures in it.
So I have been fooling around with this deck for a while but have been missing a good win con. Paradox Engine is the perfect answer. Not sure it's enough to make the deck somewhat competitive but I'm definitely gonna give it a shot when the set is released.
This is basically a Modern version of the old busted Tolarian Academy + Mind Over Matter deck where your plan is to gain a ton of mana and draw a ton of cards and then in the end force your opponent to overdraw.
The combo might be a turn or so too slow, so it might be correct to go in a more controlling direction. Time will tell.
Lodestone Golem is a non-bo with all of your non-artifact blue creatures: Glint-Nest Crane, Chief Engineer, Grand Architect
I mean, there's a reason that several people in this thread that have been playing this deck for years consider Lodestone to be MVP. It's fine to analyze and talk about things on paper if everybody is walking in unknown territory, but if you are to make claims about decks that have been tested in every kind of irrigation you better make sure that you've done plenty of testing with the cards yourself.
The non-bo you describe is marginal. Partly thanks to Vial but also because of the fact that the cards mentioned are always played out before Lodestone because they are used to power it out. Every redundant copy of the cards mentioned become slightly harder to cast, but they usually have close to 0 impact anyway and you usually have better things to do with your mana at that stage of the game.
I like your list though and I think that some of your reasoning is valid. I get that you're trying to make every card matter but by doing so you're removing some of the powerful synergies that make the deck tick. I do think you could play a Lodestone-less deck, but I don't think that you should play a list with 0 Mausoleum Wanderers. Chief Engineer is pretty underwhelming without it and the card is obnoxious with Grand Architect. Lupine Prototype is interesting since it's usually easy to Hellbent yourself. I don't know whether it's better than Ensoul Artifact, especially since you already run Darksteel Citadel and Opal.
Doh! The moment I realized that Grand Architect + Thopter/Sword is more a nonbo than a combo. I had to take him out along with Hangarback but the deck still feels solid. I've added a couple of Skaab Ruinators a long with Vial. Vial + Ruinator is strong and Ruinator + Copter/Disciple is pretty sweet as well. The Thopter/Sword combo is not as strong though, since you are much more reliant on hitting your land drops now.
Ace1: thanks for the link. It seems about right from my experience. Have you tested it yet? I'm not as excited about it as I was in the beginning. It's awesome with a Vial in play but a bit clunky without it.
streetMage: Smuggler's Copter to me is still awesome. I'm pretty sure that I've won as many games with it on turn 2 as I have with Superion. The scenario you describe doesn't happen a lot to me. Don't know if you've been unlucky and drawn it at a bad time or that you're simply not used to have it in your deck and don't play optimally. When you have it in your deck, you try to hold back excessive lands and creatures with small impact so that you have something to loot away when it gets going. Having something that helps you draw into gas in the mid-game when you need to close the game to me has been extremely valuable. At worst it's a 3/3 flier which can help chip away your opponents life total when you have a standoff on the ground.
Right now I'm switching between these decks with pretty good results. I haven't joined a league yet so they haven't really been tested but so far I like how they play out:
Spell Queller has been great at stopping Anger of the Gods + friends. It's also a decent deck to put it in with all the tax effects, making it hard to kill it in time. Lodestone makes it slightly hard to cast at times, but the nonbo isn't as bad as it might seem. Especially with Vial in the deck.
The second list is my favorite. I haven't played it as much but there's some raw potential here with tons of synergy. I can run a full set of Thopter/Sword without it being too painful to draw redundant copies since I have Disciple and Copter to loot them away. Disciple/Copter also help draw into the combo and Grand Architect can make a ton of mana with the combo in play giving you an early kick-start (and by kick-start I mean you go infinite). Thopter Foundry also gives the deck a sac outlet which pairs well with Hangarback.
If you are messing around with Madness I feel that Bloodghast is a must. As far as the new vampires go: Voldaren Pariah is the first one that caught my attention. He/she does die to Bolt but it seems to me that the potential upside when you manage to flip him/her is so big that it more than compensate for all the lost causes. It does require that we run expendable dudes but again Bloodghast fits right in.
They wont print enough good energy cards for it to be viable. If they did, it would break Standard.
As it stands, I don't think that the card is remotely playable. A lot of conditions need to be met. First off you need a heavy load of big fatties. This isn't an issue if you put it in a Through the Breach deck but it does severely limit the design space to pretty much only that. If you for instance could go through your whole deck instead of just the top 6, it would not just be a bad version of Through the Breach but open up for different kind of designs. Second off, you need a self sac/energy sub-theme which limit the design space to an unacceptable degree. Being 1 mana cheaper than Through the Breach is a small upside compared to the huge downside of you needing to fill the deck with a bunch of supporting junk. For instance if you cut the support and replaced it with mana accel that would help you cast TtB 1 turn earlier you'd be far better off.
Yes, it does bring consistency to the deck, making it a functional Through the Breach 5-8 but decks like that already have access to Goryo's Vengeance which has a lot smaller deck building requirements. In fact playing cheap spells that loot is something you wouldn't mind putting into a Through the Breach deck to begin with.
I don't know the math but 20 artifacts seems to be working. Whenever I mess around with the artifact ratio it seems to fizzle more than what is optimal. But yeah let me know what you think. I still think that the card is sweet. I've started to add equipment now, getting those hits in is a lot easier with more fliers.
I haven't seen anyone mention this combo so I thought I'd put it out there. Granted it's a pretty clunky combo that needs 3 or 4 pieces (something to eat the energy so you can keep going and a win condition. Maybe there's a card that can do both?)
Because it's a 3-4 card combo I think it's essential that it can be put into a deck that can make good use of all the pieces separately. Elves maybe? Some kind of Evolutionary Leap brew? I don't know.
If you have any ideas, feel free to share them.
It wasn't me who suggested the Trophy Mage into Crucible tech. But I kind of like it. Tron and Scapeshift are notoriously bad matchups and that would definitely help sealing the deal. I do think if you were to include the combo that you probably want 4 GQs or 3 GQs + 1 Tech Edge or something to that extend. My gut tells me that Treasure Mage probably still is the best of the mages but I still think it's worth exploring. If you include a Vedalken Shackles as well, you already have something for almost every matchup to fetch.
That makes a lot more sense. That reduces it from a 6 card combo to a 3 card combo plus avoids playing around with fragile mana dorks and making it a subpar Jeskai Ascendancy deck.
Still, I feel that the key is to try to minimize the amount of moving pieces as much as possible. 3 card combos are usually not good enough for Modern. In this case though 2 of the combo pieces are good in a vacuum (Manamorphose and Scepter) so I can see some potential here.
I guess that Grand Architect has some potential though. The only problem with him is that he lacks redundancy so you're turning it into a 3 card combo where you only can play 4 of at least two of the combo pieces (plus he dies to Bolt). Grand Architect plus Pili-Pala has been around for a long time and no one has been able to crack that code. I'm not sure that Paradox Engine brings anything new to that table other than some redundancy.
I'm not so sure about the glass canon approach either. On paper I could see this being a turn 4-5 deck (closer to 5 than 4 probably) which is too slow without any disruption. The reason I'm gonna start with a full-on approach is because the support is always harder to figure out than the rest.
I could definitely see Ensnaring Bridge being a thing. Or maybe something like Gigadrowse and Exhaustion since they both protect against counters and fog as well. We probably don't need too much time with protection before we go off.
I've tried a similar deck where I ran 7 rocks and 7 charge buffs, which seemed to be somewhat consistent. That's 2 slots freed. Voltaic Key is also another card that could be shaved down to a couple. It is really powerful and can ramp you up insanely fast but with Engine it might not be necessary to run the full set.
4 Everflowing Chalice
4 Astral Cornucopia
4 Voltaic Key
4 Surge Node
4 Coretapper
4 Paradox Engine
4 Thoughtcast
4 Tezzeret's Gambit
4 Blue Sun's Zenith
12 Island
This is basically a Modern version of the old busted Tolarian Academy + Mind Over Matter deck where your plan is to gain a ton of mana and draw a ton of cards and then in the end force your opponent to overdraw.
The combo might be a turn or so too slow, so it might be correct to go in a more controlling direction. Time will tell.
I mean, there's a reason that several people in this thread that have been playing this deck for years consider Lodestone to be MVP. It's fine to analyze and talk about things on paper if everybody is walking in unknown territory, but if you are to make claims about decks that have been tested in every kind of irrigation you better make sure that you've done plenty of testing with the cards yourself.
The non-bo you describe is marginal. Partly thanks to Vial but also because of the fact that the cards mentioned are always played out before Lodestone because they are used to power it out. Every redundant copy of the cards mentioned become slightly harder to cast, but they usually have close to 0 impact anyway and you usually have better things to do with your mana at that stage of the game.
I like your list though and I think that some of your reasoning is valid. I get that you're trying to make every card matter but by doing so you're removing some of the powerful synergies that make the deck tick. I do think you could play a Lodestone-less deck, but I don't think that you should play a list with 0 Mausoleum Wanderers. Chief Engineer is pretty underwhelming without it and the card is obnoxious with Grand Architect. Lupine Prototype is interesting since it's usually easy to Hellbent yourself. I don't know whether it's better than
Ensoul Artifact, especially since you already run Darksteel Citadel and Opal.
streetMage: Smuggler's Copter to me is still awesome. I'm pretty sure that I've won as many games with it on turn 2 as I have with Superion. The scenario you describe doesn't happen a lot to me. Don't know if you've been unlucky and drawn it at a bad time or that you're simply not used to have it in your deck and don't play optimally. When you have it in your deck, you try to hold back excessive lands and creatures with small impact so that you have something to loot away when it gets going. Having something that helps you draw into gas in the mid-game when you need to close the game to me has been extremely valuable. At worst it's a 3/3 flier which can help chip away your opponents life total when you have a standoff on the ground.
Right now I'm switching between these decks with pretty good results. I haven't joined a league yet so they haven't really been tested but so far I like how they play out:
4 Æther Vial
4 Mausoleum Wanderer
4 Chief Engineer
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Smuggler's Copter
4 Myr Superion
4 Grand Architect
4 Spell Queller
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Moorland Haunt
4 Island
1 Plains
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Mausoleum Wanderer
4 Chief Engineer
2 Glint-Nest Crane
4 Disciple of Deceit
4 Thopter Foundry
4 Myr Superion
4 Smuggler's Copter
4 Sword of the Meek
4 Grand Architect
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Watery Grave
6 Island
Spell Queller has been great at stopping Anger of the Gods + friends. It's also a decent deck to put it in with all the tax effects, making it hard to kill it in time. Lodestone makes it slightly hard to cast at times, but the nonbo isn't as bad as it might seem. Especially with Vial in the deck.
The second list is my favorite. I haven't played it as much but there's some raw potential here with tons of synergy. I can run a full set of Thopter/Sword without it being too painful to draw redundant copies since I have Disciple and Copter to loot them away. Disciple/Copter also help draw into the combo and Grand Architect can make a ton of mana with the combo in play giving you an early kick-start (and by kick-start I mean you go infinite). Thopter Foundry also gives the deck a sac outlet which pairs well with Hangarback.
I might try something like this:
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Gravecrawler
4 Bloodghast
4 Smuggler's Copter
4 Stromkirk Condemned
4 Terminate
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Voldaren Pariah
3 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Blood Crypt
1 Watery Grave
1 Mountain
3 Polluted Delta
4 Swamp
1 Steam Vents
As it stands, I don't think that the card is remotely playable. A lot of conditions need to be met. First off you need a heavy load of big fatties. This isn't an issue if you put it in a Through the Breach deck but it does severely limit the design space to pretty much only that. If you for instance could go through your whole deck instead of just the top 6, it would not just be a bad version of Through the Breach but open up for different kind of designs. Second off, you need a self sac/energy sub-theme which limit the design space to an unacceptable degree. Being 1 mana cheaper than Through the Breach is a small upside compared to the huge downside of you needing to fill the deck with a bunch of supporting junk. For instance if you cut the support and replaced it with mana accel that would help you cast TtB 1 turn earlier you'd be far better off.
Yes, it does bring consistency to the deck, making it a functional Through the Breach 5-8 but decks like that already have access to Goryo's Vengeance which has a lot smaller deck building requirements. In fact playing cheap spells that loot is something you wouldn't mind putting into a Through the Breach deck to begin with.
I don't know the math but 20 artifacts seems to be working. Whenever I mess around with the artifact ratio it seems to fizzle more than what is optimal. But yeah let me know what you think. I still think that the card is sweet. I've started to add equipment now, getting those hits in is a lot easier with more fliers.