jund is a deck, everyone playn modern, has on its radar, so they all have cards against this deck
in so many matchups DRS doesnt do that much, cause it gets handled pretty quick
and if he doesnt get handled, he does his job, be it acceleration / dmg / life... but from my experience its not soo bad, that it needed to be banned. i mean each card has its purpose and DRS aint some broken 2 card combo that wins the game turn 3 or 4. i was at GP prague, and allthough jund was the most played deck on this weekend, it didnt win. and to be honest, i cant remember when the last time jund was winning a GP.
people say, he does 4-8 dmg per game. actualy i think the average dmg per game is 4 (since it doesnt allways do that) its pretty much the same with wild nacatl...2 swings for 3 dmg is also alot for a 1 mana creature.
i am fine with the nacatl unban, since i never had problems playn vs zoo decks. the real unban, that i think shouldnt have been done, was bitterblossom. it generates so much advantage, that it is a joke, to ban DRS but unban this. i think this card is much more powerfull. and allthough it has a drawback, it is a way to strong card.
maybe we should think about ristrictions instead of bannings in modern.
Bitterblossom isn't nearly as good as it used to be. I'd much rather be playing Pod to be honest. Comparing nut draws, a turn two pod's going to generate more value at a faster rate than a turn two bitterblossom. There are so many good cards and hate for faeries that have been printed since the last heyday of faeries that it's a joke that BB was still on the banlist before the recent announcement. Also, BB requires you to build around it in some way. I would never consider putting it in any sort of good stuff like Jund deck since it's a terrible topdeck that generates no immediate value when you play it. Lingering Souls is a better and more efficient card if you want a token generator for your goodstuff deck.
I'm wondering if Junk was more under explored rather than not competitive enough. The colors have a lot going for it. My defense of such a statement rests in my my friend's GWb good stuff midrange deck. It almost consistently shat on my Jund deck when we played modern since it had stuff like Loxodon Smiter, lingering souls, and wilt-lief liege. It was mostly GW, splashing black for lingering souls and Deathrite. The deck had game against the rest of the tier decks as well except for Tron, but pretty much every green-based midrange deck struggles against tron so that doesn't invalidate the deck. I know anecdotal evidence is kind of weak, but I can't do much better than that for an under explored archetype.
EDIT: I should add that that my friend's deck was still good against Jund even when BBE and Deathrite were still in the format so BBE didn't automatically shut it down.
So I have a question from one prospective UBx Faerie player to all you guys: Is this deck definitely going to be a player in the new modern metagame that is going to crop up soon? Many of the people I've talked to have doubts it'll even be tier 1.5. Their arguments seem to boil down to that more hate has been printed since the last time UB Faeries was a deck. In addition to Volcanic Fallout and Great Sable Stag there is now abrupt decay, supreme verdict, and Loxodon Smiter to contend with. Furthermore, decks have just gotten better and more powerful. I guess my question is with all these uncounterable cards and powerful modern decks is our deck just going to be able to be hated out whenever people try to and/or just not be good enough? Or is our deck resilient and powerful enough to make the cut in Modern? Forgive me if these questions sound a little elementary but I didn't play during the reigns of UB Fae in standard and extended so I don't have experience with how good the deck can be. I just want other fae players input on this matter since many of you have tested the deck for modern more than I have probably since BB got unbanned.
So it's come to this. GP DC's in a week. I've been doing what I can to test for the format with my current Legacy deck of choice (Shardless BUG). I won a GP Trial for two-byes. However, I am not sure I can even go anymore.
The reason I feel like I can't go anymore has to do with the fact that I'm in college. I'm in my 5th year, planning to graduate May 2015. As it stands right now, I have about a month left in the semester before finals comes, and then comes that final stretch of exams and papers. I'm really feeling the pressure right now. And I feel like I didn't keep up with my work as good as I could have to feel comfortable enough to just spend on whole weekend in DC. I should say that I didn't graduate on time due to taking off school two times. The first time didn't involve magic so much since I wasn't really playing the game at the time. That was due to other personal issues. However, the second time around Magic, while not the only factor that caused me to withdraw from school a second time, was still a decent part of why I messed up again.
I guess my question to the community is, if I'm experiencing these feelings, should I put the cards away and not go to GP DC next weekend so I can focus on my school work (despite the fact I might feel a bit crappy for wasting 2 byes I won)? In addition to that, should I just stop playing Magic for a while until I really feel like I've get everything else in my life under control? I love legacy to DEATH. It's become a real hobby of passion of mine and has allowed me to play with cool people, but I can't help but feel I need leave my favorite format alone for a while:(
So, the meta seems to have shifted. Combo is big, especially show and tell, with storm very big in Europe (where I am from). The big fair decks at the moment seem to be RUG, and Death and Taxes, which is a really bad MU for us.
Can we evolve from this, and is the Shardless Agent package still viable? or are we fine, or dead completely? Thoughts?
Don't think we're dead completely, just in decline. This deck, while not as good against combo as a delver deck, still can fight combo if you adjust your list accordingly. It is often an uphill battle though since we run less disruption than an Esper Stoneblade deck. I think if the meta continues to be combo heavy it might be better to switch to Team America if you want to stay in BUG colors. I'm only playing the deck still because I don't think I can get enough experience with another deck in time for GP DC, but after that I will probably put it down for a while to play other decks.
As for the big fair decks, I don't think RUG is as big right now as UWR Delver. That seems to be the best Delver deck at the moment. However, I never fear a Delver deck with Shardless BUG. We are generally favored in any fair blue mirror. Death and Taxes, on the other hand, is tough. Not unbeatable though. I have beaten them before. My plan currently is to answer all their threats, stabilize, and kill them before they draw into more action. This gets much easier postboard since I bring in more removal including golgari charm and now Toxic Deluge (my answer for anything golgari charm can't take care of like Mirran Crusader). I typically side out my forces and discard. I keep my Jaces in. He's not always good but I like having him in my deck than any discard spells because he's not a terrible topdeck. I've even won games because of him because he found me the answer I needed to stabilize or put the game out of my opponent's reach after stabilizing.
As for taking out the Shardless package, I don't know how I would answer that, but my feeling is that you either become more controlling (pure BUG Control) or more aggro (switch to Team America). I personally think that if you're going to play a BUG midrange deck that Shardless BUG is the best deck for that since the Shardless package enables you to get immediate value if you cascade into visions where old BUG Midrange builds with Dark Confidant have the problem of needing Dark Confidant to stick. That's just my two cents on that topic though. Maybe there's a different BUG Midrange deck we should be playing.
I played Elves at SCG Seattle, and I have to say that between in person matches and online testing I'm something like 14-1 against Shardless BUG. I'd be happy to test with you on Cockatrice, but at least from this side, Elves seems fairly unwinnable.
PM me and we'll find some times.
I wouldn't call the MU unwinnable, just harder than a lot of other decks Shardless BUG could face. Imperial Painter's probably more near unwinnable than Combo Elves. I have beaten Elves preboard before. I just feel like if I can improve my knowledge of the match-up I can improve my chances of winning since my deck allows exploitation of play skill.
Anyways, thanks to those who replied. I've sent PMs to discuss testing times.
So since I've been struggling to get anyone in my travel group for GP DC to do some serious testing, I'm taking it upon myself to do testing via cockatrice when I have time. With that said, the primary objective of my testing at this point, aside from general practice, is to figure out a board plan for the elves MU and get more experience with it. Would anyone who can play Elves relatively well be willing to oblige? I play Shardless BUG for your guy's information.
So what do you guys think about Toxic Deluge? Seems right up our alley. We get a versatile Wrath and we can just regain life off a new Deathrite Shaman. Low on the curve and color requirements, to boot.
I like that card a lot. Going to test 1 or 2 in my sb soon. I'm always a fan of versatile sb cards.
Anyways, so one of my buddies who is going to GP DC with me is trying to learn how to play Shardless BUG before then. He played against an Elves player in the swiss at my LGS yesterday. After the match we talked about his sb'ing, which went like the following: -3 Jace, -3 Force of Will, +2 Pernicious Deed, +2 Golgari Charm, +2 Disfigure. I didn't necessarily say he was wrong for sb'ing like that, but I'm not sure about taking out Force of Will against Elves. This is a MU I'm still trying to figure out. Thoughts? What are your plans when you get paired against an Elves player while piloting Shardless BUG? What do you side in and out?
I played against him yesterday in a Merfolk deck on Cockatrice. He can be pretty hard to deal with depending on the colors your deck. I was piloting Canadian Threshold in this MU. In that case my only answer is counter him or race him. He's annoying but not busted enough to be another Deathrite Shaman or Mental Misstep. Probably one of those cards you will have to keep in mind when constructing your SB's, but he's not format defining. I know as a BUG player primarily I'm not as worried since black has so many answers to such a card.
Congratulations! Did you take away any other opinions on the deck and what was your loss to? I'll be rocking my same list in Milwaukee today, so hopefully I can make something happen for shardless.
Just posted my Tournament Report here on The Source. To answer your question Sir Bill, my biggest takeaway aside from the deck seeming to run better on 23 lands concerns when to side Jace out. I used to side out Jace in just about almost every nonblue fair MU (ex. Goblins, Maverick, D&T, etc). However, I'm not so sure if that is right anymore considering how I kept him in against my Goblins opponent the second time around. In both games of my semifinals round, Jace was the reason I was able to grind my opponent out.
Force of will is a commonly used card because its the best counter spell.
Just like how Lightning bolt is the best direct damage spell
Just like how Swords to plowshares is the best removal
Just like how Tarmogoyf is the best beater
Why?
Because they are the most cost efficient of their counterparts.
I'm not sure if Force of Will is the most "cost efficient" counterspell ever made. In a strict sense I would argue that counterspell holds that title. In a vacuum Force of Will is actually a bad card, but we all know that the context of a format will make objectively bad cards contextually powerful, sometimes staples even as is the case with Force of Will in Legacy and Vintage. Maybe Force of Will is more cost efficient than Counterspell considering the nature of the format though.
Went to a Legacy format GP DC Trial today at Empire Cards Game Center in Streetsboro, OH. Ran Shardless BUG to a 3-1 record in the swiss and made the Top 4. Beat my semi-finals opponent and split with my finals opponent to get the 2 byes for GP DC. I'm really happy with how the deck ran today, especially since I was at a loss with it last weekend after scrubbing out at SCG Cleveland. Will post some sort of report with a list when I'm not so tired. I will say though I upped the land count to 23 lands. Made a little more prone to flood by I rarely ever got land screwed and brainstorm of course helped me get out of flooding situations.
Bill, how's the 23 land count working out for you? I'm considering going back up to that number from 22 after scrubbing out this recent weekend at SCG CLE. It felt like many of my losses were due to not being able to establish my mana base because I got wastelanded once or stifled once and couldn't draw into more land to recover.
I wouldn't say there is a single deck that defines legacy but you can talk about distinctive decks in archetypes so I agree with Kurt's choices, with the addition of Maverick for Midrange. I don't know of any other format where knight of the reliquary is playable and having access to such good utility lands for the card to fetch.
Anyone else find it disconcerting that Wizards has only one Legacy GP in the U.S. next year? Maybe I'm just letting the hardcore Modern players in my Magic Club get to me a little (they always like to rag on Legacy), but I just wanted other people's input on this.
Bitterblossom isn't nearly as good as it used to be. I'd much rather be playing Pod to be honest. Comparing nut draws, a turn two pod's going to generate more value at a faster rate than a turn two bitterblossom. There are so many good cards and hate for faeries that have been printed since the last heyday of faeries that it's a joke that BB was still on the banlist before the recent announcement. Also, BB requires you to build around it in some way. I would never consider putting it in any sort of good stuff like Jund deck since it's a terrible topdeck that generates no immediate value when you play it. Lingering Souls is a better and more efficient card if you want a token generator for your goodstuff deck.
EDIT: I should add that that my friend's deck was still good against Jund even when BBE and Deathrite were still in the format so BBE didn't automatically shut it down.
The reason I feel like I can't go anymore has to do with the fact that I'm in college. I'm in my 5th year, planning to graduate May 2015. As it stands right now, I have about a month left in the semester before finals comes, and then comes that final stretch of exams and papers. I'm really feeling the pressure right now. And I feel like I didn't keep up with my work as good as I could have to feel comfortable enough to just spend on whole weekend in DC. I should say that I didn't graduate on time due to taking off school two times. The first time didn't involve magic so much since I wasn't really playing the game at the time. That was due to other personal issues. However, the second time around Magic, while not the only factor that caused me to withdraw from school a second time, was still a decent part of why I messed up again.
I guess my question to the community is, if I'm experiencing these feelings, should I put the cards away and not go to GP DC next weekend so I can focus on my school work (despite the fact I might feel a bit crappy for wasting 2 byes I won)? In addition to that, should I just stop playing Magic for a while until I really feel like I've get everything else in my life under control? I love legacy to DEATH. It's become a real hobby of passion of mine and has allowed me to play with cool people, but I can't help but feel I need leave my favorite format alone for a while:(
Don't think we're dead completely, just in decline. This deck, while not as good against combo as a delver deck, still can fight combo if you adjust your list accordingly. It is often an uphill battle though since we run less disruption than an Esper Stoneblade deck. I think if the meta continues to be combo heavy it might be better to switch to Team America if you want to stay in BUG colors. I'm only playing the deck still because I don't think I can get enough experience with another deck in time for GP DC, but after that I will probably put it down for a while to play other decks.
As for the big fair decks, I don't think RUG is as big right now as UWR Delver. That seems to be the best Delver deck at the moment. However, I never fear a Delver deck with Shardless BUG. We are generally favored in any fair blue mirror. Death and Taxes, on the other hand, is tough. Not unbeatable though. I have beaten them before. My plan currently is to answer all their threats, stabilize, and kill them before they draw into more action. This gets much easier postboard since I bring in more removal including golgari charm and now Toxic Deluge (my answer for anything golgari charm can't take care of like Mirran Crusader). I typically side out my forces and discard. I keep my Jaces in. He's not always good but I like having him in my deck than any discard spells because he's not a terrible topdeck. I've even won games because of him because he found me the answer I needed to stabilize or put the game out of my opponent's reach after stabilizing.
As for taking out the Shardless package, I don't know how I would answer that, but my feeling is that you either become more controlling (pure BUG Control) or more aggro (switch to Team America). I personally think that if you're going to play a BUG midrange deck that Shardless BUG is the best deck for that since the Shardless package enables you to get immediate value if you cascade into visions where old BUG Midrange builds with Dark Confidant have the problem of needing Dark Confidant to stick. That's just my two cents on that topic though. Maybe there's a different BUG Midrange deck we should be playing.
I wouldn't call the MU unwinnable, just harder than a lot of other decks Shardless BUG could face. Imperial Painter's probably more near unwinnable than Combo Elves. I have beaten Elves preboard before. I just feel like if I can improve my knowledge of the match-up I can improve my chances of winning since my deck allows exploitation of play skill.
Anyways, thanks to those who replied. I've sent PMs to discuss testing times.
I like that card a lot. Going to test 1 or 2 in my sb soon. I'm always a fan of versatile sb cards.
Anyways, so one of my buddies who is going to GP DC with me is trying to learn how to play Shardless BUG before then. He played against an Elves player in the swiss at my LGS yesterday. After the match we talked about his sb'ing, which went like the following: -3 Jace, -3 Force of Will, +2 Pernicious Deed, +2 Golgari Charm, +2 Disfigure. I didn't necessarily say he was wrong for sb'ing like that, but I'm not sure about taking out Force of Will against Elves. This is a MU I'm still trying to figure out. Thoughts? What are your plans when you get paired against an Elves player while piloting Shardless BUG? What do you side in and out?
Just posted my Tournament Report here on The Source. To answer your question Sir Bill, my biggest takeaway aside from the deck seeming to run better on 23 lands concerns when to side Jace out. I used to side out Jace in just about almost every nonblue fair MU (ex. Goblins, Maverick, D&T, etc). However, I'm not so sure if that is right anymore considering how I kept him in against my Goblins opponent the second time around. In both games of my semifinals round, Jace was the reason I was able to grind my opponent out.
I'm not sure if Force of Will is the most "cost efficient" counterspell ever made. In a strict sense I would argue that counterspell holds that title. In a vacuum Force of Will is actually a bad card, but we all know that the context of a format will make objectively bad cards contextually powerful, sometimes staples even as is the case with Force of Will in Legacy and Vintage. Maybe Force of Will is more cost efficient than Counterspell considering the nature of the format though.