Usually, when I or anyone else use the phrase deflecting, it means scum deflecting away from a scum-buddy.
I can't remember at this point whether Proph was on the GJ wagon before hopping off and calling it scum-infested, its been too long, but it seemed like he really didn't want to be on the wagon, or didn't want the wagon to go forward, and then went overboard with his wording by calling the wagon "scum-infested". When apparently, he only meant Sir Chris when he ret-conned his rationale. That smacks of artificiality and backwards reasoning - he determined the stance he wanted to make in advance, and then his reasoning afterwards was too hyperbolic and his actual stance was out of sync with his earlier rhetoric.
First came the decision about what to do, then came the justification, afterwards. That's what it reads like to me.
Deflecting can be from a scum buddy, it can also be from yourself.
Proph started the GJ wagon and left it to pursue Chris - so if you thought he was deflecting from GJ in order to do that, then why in the same post did you say that you couldn't imagine why anyone thought GJ was scum?
Unvote: Vote: Azrael
There is no way this is a legit town thought process from Az.
He called Proph scum because he thought that the GJ wagon was full of silly townies and that Proph was directing us to them. In that post he said he couldn't understand why anyone was scum reading GJ. Later he says that Proph was deflecting and that deflecting means from a scum buddy. He also said he didn't have a town read on Chris despite Chris being the only person Proph suspected of the folks he mentioned on the wagon and he thought Proph was trying to get us to suspect silly townies. Then when elaborting on that, Az pointed to Wheat and GJ as also being on the wagon despite the fact that Proph mentioned neither, and that GJ makes no sense in context at all (it would mean that Proph unvoted scum buddy GJ to cast suspicion on GJ for being on his own wagon... Legit nonsense).
And none of that even goes into the believability of the logic that Proph would start a naked vote on a scum buddy only to unvote at the height of that wagon and vote the loudest supporter of the wagon.
Vig claim or no, Az is basically caught scum at this point and if you disagree, I'd like to know exactly what you think is believable about that in detail.
As an aside - I don't think that clears Proph. I still don't like how static he feels about his reads and his saying that the game is basically in PoE right now doesn't feel authentic from him. It feels like he's trying to be overly casual.
I agree with you. The way that he insisted that his opinion was clear in his catch up when it wasn't plus his comfort level just saying "welcome to the mind of the grinder" in 485 when Chris was on him for his logic feels good from him.
I feel like Chris & Cyan and Cyan & Chris are talking past each other, mostly because of either tunnel vision or emotional overload.
I will not acknowledge accusations of lurking directed at me. My posting rate has always depended exclusively on how much free time I have and how many things are higher than Mafia on my priority list. This has not changed, only difference is Mafia of a much lower importance to me now than it used to be some years ago.
Upon reading half the game, I have yet so far to find anything dramatically wrong with Iso. I think I'll push aside the mass-claim thing as being a Terrible Idea™, and maybe finish re-reading him at another time (if ever).
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I have town reads on Cyan, Johnny, Iso, Proph, Rhand, and Chris (his recent posts felt genuine). The rest is neutral. Out of these, I want pressure on Wheat. To parrot Azrael, his reads don't feel organic. He's the guy who sits below the tree trying to catch the low-hanging fruits when they fall, after letting someone else kick the tree.
Case in point:
- He starts the game voting for GJ, biggest wagon at the time.
- In #235, also lists Chris (who has a horde of non-fans going after him since the beginning of the game) and Proph (at the time target of a fast growing wagon).
- He made sure to voice some level of support for the Azrael wagon in spite of not wanting to be part of it (Azrael is scummy but, yuck, Chris is there too... ).
- Tested the water with a possible Iso lynch.
- He's now testing the waters with me and Seppel: probably the first time he really took the initiative, at a time when it is unclear who the next big wagon will be.
Unvote, Vote: Wheat_Grinder
SCUM DETECTED
WOOP WOOP WOOP
I'm with you on this as well, especially in re-reading his other posts. It's the way he's phrasing certain things, his lack of explanation around his shift from convicted scum reads to town, several questions that go no where along with some filler comments.
I should have some time to go through it as well as overall thoughts tonight.
Just had a chance to read the Mason chat - always fun seeing your thoughts on things, Voxx. Feel like it's easy to grow as a player when digesting your stuff, and I was happy to see that a lot of your reasons for things this game were aligned with mine... and it was interesting to see the differences as well. Fun for me to see you back because one of the ways I cut my teeth on mafia was reading that epic mentor chat you had with Proph.
Two quick things that stood out.
"Admittedly that's more Cyan than DC... all DC has done is /barn the **** out of me while regurgitating commonly said reasons for things."
Kind of. The main reason I suspected Tor was his reaction to Chris's pump fake. The main reason I suspected Rhand was just reading his early game play and back and forth with GJ. The initial reason I suspected Nacho was Sepiriel's interaction with Tor. I came to those conclusions without realizing that they were similar reasons to how you did (I think you had different reasons for Tor, don't remember what they were). I completely agreed with your reads as a whole, though, and also came to the same conclusion about Nacho's reaction considering the game state at the time and reading your take on it resonated as well.
So... I get why it came across the way it did but, I had an incredibly strong Town read on you, and I knew Chris was Town because of how he claimed vig after Wildfire despite not having shot yet, and because Cyan jailed him and he came across incredibly authentically with regard to that. So, from my perspective, Town had two very vocal and entrenched leaders already established, both of whom I felt as though I could trust, and I agreed with your reads entirely from what I saw and from your reasons as I saw them coming out, and Chris's reads seemed mostly in line as well and if he deviated it was mostly in order and around Jobie, so that seemed solid to me. There was no reason for me to make up new or different reasons that I suspected the same people when I liked the direction the game was headed and my thoughts echoed popular sentiment, so I decided to just play a support function at that time.
I'm super results driven in mafia. All I care about is a W or an L and I think, over time, record shows that one is able to positively impact their team. I think some people get too caught up in hero play and having their own reads be listened to or feeling like they were the most instrumental person in figuring out the game end up taking priority for them over the result, and it can sometimes hurt their team. There are probably an infinite number of ways you can help your team win in a game of mafia. More often than not for good players, it's probably going to involve trying to take a leadership role... and normally I try to, especially when I'm seeing or thinking about things that aren't being discussed - but I'm not above figuring out that I agree with player X or Y and just trying to drive forward those lynches and you were being thorough and vocal about that, so my giving my reads was just more so people could see my thought process at that point in the game rather than feeling like I had to convince anyone. If I was trying to squeeze out reasons to suspect those people that weren't the best reasons or weren't the reasons I agreed with, it just would have been distracting or come across unnaturally.
I do think there's a bit of a misconception right now that I play in certain defined ways when, in reality, I've less than 20 games under my belt so that's still very much evolving. I sound like Chris now :-P
Speaking of...
"Chris is just...extremely self-focused and defensive over the slightest things. That + what feels like intentional smugness just makes my skin crawl, because it feels fake and calculated."
This made me smile because it's exactly why I find I end up scumreading Chris. I have the hardest time believing his opinions on things because the way that he presents them just feel so... overdramatic? Like a player with his experience level, playstyle... the things he's seen... and his opinion is THAT extreme about (fill in the blank)? It always has an aura of putting on a show.
I'm trying to learn to read him in other types of ways, although it's probably going to be an ongoing struggle because he has a way of roping me back into being concerned. This game was nice because I had a pretty airtight reason to clear him, IMO, so I could reject doubt easily.
A couple of stances he took early, like that Az and Chris were talking to each other because they didn't have pregame chat were too brash for Rhand to push like that if he was scum. He also claimed Bodyguard really early in the process, which would be a claim that would continuously draw scrutiny the longer he lived and is the only claimed protective role.
@DC: In my big catchup post, the two times I quoted a Chris post and said "what" or "why" were things that I found scummy. In addition, the arguments that Chris is scum with Proph are convincing to me.
I also haven't seen anything from his posts that has shaken any of those reads.
No you didn't on the bolded. You quoted posts, your reasoning was vague. Go into more detail on your overall Chris thoughts for me. Also, who is currently saying that Proph and Chris are scum together and spell that argument out for me? I've argued the opposite.
If it makes you feel better, even reading the game as an outsider, I thought that Nacho was scum. One of the last posts he made was just miserably scummy, and I didn't understand at all how a townie could have made it.
Yeah, I was really sold. So much so that I wanted to delay lynching Rhand both before and after that Chris point because I was that sure he was scum and I kept seeing imaginary writing on the wall with him working to clear himself through Rhand. Glad we didn't take my advice on that one. It was a nice touch by Wildfire to play up some distaste at Chris bringing up the Night ending early point, btw.
Yeah, one of my vulnerabilities is thinking, "nah, scum wouldn't do _______" In this case claiming to have attempted to vig you on a hunch after you came in and sealed the Ika case and looked generally towny. Gotta give Wildfire the nod for it being a balsy move and it working for a good portion of the game.
Wildfire, your scum game has come a long way. I am impressed. You got me to pretty much stop analyzing you altogether with the Vox claimed shot. I probably would have had to give it a think if I'd been left alive and we mislynched HP. But I don't think I'd have been nearly as quick/confident to pull the trigger as the other folks were end game.
Proph, your confidence level in this game considering who is playing is creeping me out, especially since you only have two strong scum reads and you're saying you don't feel good about the PRs but are just leaving it at that, as is your read on Rhand who is my strongest town read, as is the fact that not much has changed your opinion since that post, which was close to half the game ago.
Walk me through how you think this game is mostly PoEd if you're uncertain about Wheat, Rhand, Cythare and don't trust the PRs.
Well, the reason I called #195 a Town Proph post is because he dropped the wagon he started in GJ, and pushed you just as you were taking up the mantle on GJ, which really doesn't seem like a scum Proph thing to do - which is exactly the thing I'd have expected you to pick up on, which is why I thought that your suspicion of him didn't ring true, especially if you thought GJ was scum.
The other thing is that you're saying that your accusation of Proph was born of frustration but when I thought I picked up on frustration from you earlier from Cyan and myself, you said you weren't frustrated. You weren't frustrated until Proph pushed you?
I think the thing that's still making me wary is that as a player who regularly draws pressure like yourself who has an admitted playstyle that does that, and who uses that as a scum hunting method - it's surprising that you'd feel frustrated both by the pressure and also if you did think Proph was scum at the time - because you'd have thought you found scum.
Also general thought - if ever there was a game where scum weren't going to be cowardly, wouldn't it be this one? I mean I think that thought process around Proph is sound but to use it across many of the other players doesn't seem sound.
Whoops, didn't realize there was already discussion about this ongoing - disregard my post (as MS) in the sign up thread about a Normal. It does appear we don't have an active one in queue, though.
Hey Proph - what are your general non-Chris-related game thoughts right now?
--
@Chris - I appreciate the apology. The one post thing I'm talking about was when you said this,
"Although I am glad you have such a deep, abiding faith in someone's town game that you can see one post and go "lol town."" - That was in reference to me thinking that Proph was town and not believing that when you asked Proph if he was defending scum buddy GJ it was a legit opinion, because I'd think that you'd think differently about a scum Proph leaving a wagon on GJ (who you thought was scum and that Proph started) to vote you.
When I called you on it then, you said that it was clear you weren't scum reading Proph. Now you're saying you were scum reading Proph and then thought better of it, basically after you realized the same point that I was making that scum Proph probably wouldn't have done that, especially if GJ was scum. But when you were responding to me about that point of mine, you didn't seem to understand how I thought Proph was Town after one post...
This game made me realize how much I dislike replacing into games generally, but, yeah - not too bad and it was fun going back and forth with Nacho even though I probably should have figured out he was Town somewhere along the way. That interaction between Tordeck and Sepiriel was just SO weird from Sepiriel's side, couldn't reconcile it (and didn't realize that was a point Voxx had made until everyone kept referencing it). I didn't have Wildfire in my sights because of the way he confessed to the Voxx kill... so that was good play on his part and well done for everyone zeroing in on it (was surprised TS was lynched but I'd definitely have wanted to lynch HP so, yeah). Also probably better I got killed that Night because it eliminated a legit suspect from my slot.
Anywho - 2 of 3 reading pages 1-3 and stuff after I replaced in wasn't too awful.
Excited Voxx is back. Kudos to Chris on the early game reads and carrying them through - good late game team work from everyone. And a nod to TS for how far his game has come in a just a few games and a nod to Nacho for causing legit paranoia in me (just cause I was legit worried he'd be able to silver tongue his way away from a lynch if he was scum... which he wasn't, but, yeah).
Yeah, if this is true then consider me aghast at your lack of effort to show it.
Deflecting can be from a scum buddy, it can also be from yourself.
Proph started the GJ wagon and left it to pursue Chris - so if you thought he was deflecting from GJ in order to do that, then why in the same post did you say that you couldn't imagine why anyone thought GJ was scum?
Unvote: Vote: Azrael
There is no way this is a legit town thought process from Az.
He called Proph scum because he thought that the GJ wagon was full of silly townies and that Proph was directing us to them. In that post he said he couldn't understand why anyone was scum reading GJ. Later he says that Proph was deflecting and that deflecting means from a scum buddy. He also said he didn't have a town read on Chris despite Chris being the only person Proph suspected of the folks he mentioned on the wagon and he thought Proph was trying to get us to suspect silly townies. Then when elaborting on that, Az pointed to Wheat and GJ as also being on the wagon despite the fact that Proph mentioned neither, and that GJ makes no sense in context at all (it would mean that Proph unvoted scum buddy GJ to cast suspicion on GJ for being on his own wagon... Legit nonsense).
And none of that even goes into the believability of the logic that Proph would start a naked vote on a scum buddy only to unvote at the height of that wagon and vote the loudest supporter of the wagon.
Vig claim or no, Az is basically caught scum at this point and if you disagree, I'd like to know exactly what you think is believable about that in detail.
As an aside - I don't think that clears Proph. I still don't like how static he feels about his reads and his saying that the game is basically in PoE right now doesn't feel authentic from him. It feels like he's trying to be overly casual.
-------------------
I agree with you. The way that he insisted that his opinion was clear in his catch up when it wasn't plus his comfort level just saying "welcome to the mind of the grinder" in 485 when Chris was on him for his logic feels good from him.
I'm with you on this as well, especially in re-reading his other posts. It's the way he's phrasing certain things, his lack of explanation around his shift from convicted scum reads to town, several questions that go no where along with some filler comments.
I should have some time to go through it as well as overall thoughts tonight.
Az/ZDS/Proph is my best bet.
Two quick things that stood out.
"Admittedly that's more Cyan than DC... all DC has done is /barn the **** out of me while regurgitating commonly said reasons for things."
Kind of. The main reason I suspected Tor was his reaction to Chris's pump fake. The main reason I suspected Rhand was just reading his early game play and back and forth with GJ. The initial reason I suspected Nacho was Sepiriel's interaction with Tor. I came to those conclusions without realizing that they were similar reasons to how you did (I think you had different reasons for Tor, don't remember what they were). I completely agreed with your reads as a whole, though, and also came to the same conclusion about Nacho's reaction considering the game state at the time and reading your take on it resonated as well.
So... I get why it came across the way it did but, I had an incredibly strong Town read on you, and I knew Chris was Town because of how he claimed vig after Wildfire despite not having shot yet, and because Cyan jailed him and he came across incredibly authentically with regard to that. So, from my perspective, Town had two very vocal and entrenched leaders already established, both of whom I felt as though I could trust, and I agreed with your reads entirely from what I saw and from your reasons as I saw them coming out, and Chris's reads seemed mostly in line as well and if he deviated it was mostly in order and around Jobie, so that seemed solid to me. There was no reason for me to make up new or different reasons that I suspected the same people when I liked the direction the game was headed and my thoughts echoed popular sentiment, so I decided to just play a support function at that time.
I'm super results driven in mafia. All I care about is a W or an L and I think, over time, record shows that one is able to positively impact their team. I think some people get too caught up in hero play and having their own reads be listened to or feeling like they were the most instrumental person in figuring out the game end up taking priority for them over the result, and it can sometimes hurt their team. There are probably an infinite number of ways you can help your team win in a game of mafia. More often than not for good players, it's probably going to involve trying to take a leadership role... and normally I try to, especially when I'm seeing or thinking about things that aren't being discussed - but I'm not above figuring out that I agree with player X or Y and just trying to drive forward those lynches and you were being thorough and vocal about that, so my giving my reads was just more so people could see my thought process at that point in the game rather than feeling like I had to convince anyone. If I was trying to squeeze out reasons to suspect those people that weren't the best reasons or weren't the reasons I agreed with, it just would have been distracting or come across unnaturally.
I do think there's a bit of a misconception right now that I play in certain defined ways when, in reality, I've less than 20 games under my belt so that's still very much evolving. I sound like Chris now :-P
Speaking of...
"Chris is just...extremely self-focused and defensive over the slightest things. That + what feels like intentional smugness just makes my skin crawl, because it feels fake and calculated."
This made me smile because it's exactly why I find I end up scumreading Chris. I have the hardest time believing his opinions on things because the way that he presents them just feel so... overdramatic? Like a player with his experience level, playstyle... the things he's seen... and his opinion is THAT extreme about (fill in the blank)? It always has an aura of putting on a show.
I'm trying to learn to read him in other types of ways, although it's probably going to be an ongoing struggle because he has a way of roping me back into being concerned. This game was nice because I had a pretty airtight reason to clear him, IMO, so I could reject doubt easily.
Unvote, Vote: Wheat_Grinder
A couple of stances he took early, like that Az and Chris were talking to each other because they didn't have pregame chat were too brash for Rhand to push like that if he was scum. He also claimed Bodyguard really early in the process, which would be a claim that would continuously draw scrutiny the longer he lived and is the only claimed protective role.
No you didn't on the bolded. You quoted posts, your reasoning was vague. Go into more detail on your overall Chris thoughts for me. Also, who is currently saying that Proph and Chris are scum together and spell that argument out for me? I've argued the opposite.
Yeah, I was really sold. So much so that I wanted to delay lynching Rhand both before and after that Chris point because I was that sure he was scum and I kept seeing imaginary writing on the wall with him working to clear himself through Rhand. Glad we didn't take my advice on that one. It was a nice touch by Wildfire to play up some distaste at Chris bringing up the Night ending early point, btw.
I'm going to mull and crash - would like to see some more broad game thoughts from Cythare and ZDS.
Walk me through how you think this game is mostly PoEd if you're uncertain about Wheat, Rhand, Cythare and don't trust the PRs.
The other thing is that you're saying that your accusation of Proph was born of frustration but when I thought I picked up on frustration from you earlier from Cyan and myself, you said you weren't frustrated. You weren't frustrated until Proph pushed you?
I think the thing that's still making me wary is that as a player who regularly draws pressure like yourself who has an admitted playstyle that does that, and who uses that as a scum hunting method - it's surprising that you'd feel frustrated both by the pressure and also if you did think Proph was scum at the time - because you'd have thought you found scum.
Also general thought - if ever there was a game where scum weren't going to be cowardly, wouldn't it be this one? I mean I think that thought process around Proph is sound but to use it across many of the other players doesn't seem sound.
--
@Chris - I appreciate the apology. The one post thing I'm talking about was when you said this,
"Although I am glad you have such a deep, abiding faith in someone's town game that you can see one post and go "lol town."" - That was in reference to me thinking that Proph was town and not believing that when you asked Proph if he was defending scum buddy GJ it was a legit opinion, because I'd think that you'd think differently about a scum Proph leaving a wagon on GJ (who you thought was scum and that Proph started) to vote you.
When I called you on it then, you said that it was clear you weren't scum reading Proph. Now you're saying you were scum reading Proph and then thought better of it, basically after you realized the same point that I was making that scum Proph probably wouldn't have done that, especially if GJ was scum. But when you were responding to me about that point of mine, you didn't seem to understand how I thought Proph was Town after one post...
Anywho - 2 of 3 reading pages 1-3 and stuff after I replaced in wasn't too awful.
Excited Voxx is back. Kudos to Chris on the early game reads and carrying them through - good late game team work from everyone. And a nod to TS for how far his game has come in a just a few games and a nod to Nacho for causing legit paranoia in me (just cause I was legit worried he'd be able to silver tongue his way away from a lynch if he was scum... which he wasn't, but, yeah).