First of all, I've been searching for five minutes for this thread, and just luckily ran into it. Is it an idea to rename it to something like Neoform Combo for easier recognition and findability?
Secondly, I decided to come back to this deck now that Once Upon A Time has been printed. I think this card is exactly what this deck wants, free spell, more consistency and pitchable to Allosaurus.
Still undecided about the numbers though. I'm thinking 12 land and cutting some of the extra greens (Life Goes On/Noxious Revival/Dissenter's Deliverance).
I've also been really impressed with the two Myr Retrievers I've been testing. It felt like the deck is even more consistent and more resilient to discard. I'm keeping them in too. I've got a third one in the sideboard that I bring in for the grindy matchups.
Obvious, but good to keep in mind: the Retriever is also handy to protect yourself midcombo from Surgical Extractions.
I've been playing one Walking Ballista in the sideboard, and bring them in against any deck with lots of small creatures. It's a beating against decks like Affinity, Elves and Counter Company.. I don't want more, but the one-off has been good for me. I've also occasionaly brought it in against Death Shadow decks, where they think they're safe to drop really low against us. Not sure if that's correct though.
TKS does sound interesting, and like it has use against a wide variety of MU's. I think I'll be testing those too.
So for further reference, here is the list I played at Copenhagen. The main is an exact copy of an MJ build, the side mostly the same with some small tweaks.
On cutting Hangarback Walkers and Sanctums
I did start out with these, and they looked and felt great in playing. So these are the main functions of Hangarbacks: they fetch Emrakul off a Sanctum and ramp you in mana. Secondly they provide early means of survival and an alternate wincon.
Now here is the thing, the moment you are fetching Emrakul with Hangarbacks is almost always when you are steadily going off. Imagine not drawing into an Hangarback. In that case you just keep comboing until you find either it to fetch for Emrakul, or the Emrakul itself. Thing is, cutting the Hangarbacks just makes the combo take longer. But there is a definite upside to cutting them: you can actually run more pieces that ensure you can combo off to start with. Because I don't run them I have room to run more artifacts and carddraw and thus a higher chance to start going off earlier. (So in the case of just looking at manaramp Everflowing Chalice does ramp the same amount, with added benefit of being a manarock before you combo.)
I have never ever had problems getting the combo to run long enough to find Emrakul, even if it is on the bottom, once I got going.
So there are some secondary reasons to running Hangarbacks, being early defense and alternate wincon. The second part is the easiest to answer: I've never needed a second wincon. Recycling Engineered Explosives can take care of anything that could get in Emrakul's way, with her subsequent attack finishing off anything else that's problematic.
As for early defense, this is a part where Hangarback can certainly help. The only redeeming point about my build here is that it is faster, so defense is less important, though I'll certainly admit there are situations where an early Hangarback on def could win you a game which otherwise would've been lost.
There is even an added benefit of cutting Hangarbacks and Sanctums: you can actually run more lands in the deck that produce colored mana. Before, I had definitely run into times where I couldn't cast an Abrupt Decay on a Stony Silence, because my eggs couldn't convert my colorless into the needed black or green. I've been able to run 3 more Llanowar Wastes and the fourth Spire of Industry over the Sanctums and I've only run into this problem one time since. Being able to consistently cast your sideboard cards has been the last straw that convinced me to drop the Hangarbacks.
All in all, when I changed from a Hangarback build to one without, my winpercentage certainly went up, following from being able to more consistently combo off at earlier turns. Hence, I disagree strongly that they are 'the better 0-drop' over Everflowing Chalice.
On my build and changes I'm testing next
I am really happy with my main except for one thing. I talked about focus in this deck before, but there is definitely one card standing out here: Tezzeret. And to be honest, it has been less than good for me. I have too few ways to protect it. The minus into creature mostly meets removal the opponent doesn't have other targets for, and the plus mostly feels like a really expensive Ancient Stirrings. When trying to get the combo going in the early stages, drawing a Tezzeret is often as bad as excess lands you have no use for. Once you are going it's fine, but by that stage it doesn't really add that much either.
So from earlier in this thread, I got the idea of testing out Myr Retriever. It is a card that actually helps in the early stages of comboing and makes discard matches that much better. At least that's what I'm thinking, still have to test these. The second Retriever has such a huge upside in combination with the first that I want to find a second spot in the deck. I'm probably starting out cutting the Tezzeret and the third Thoughtcast.
On the sideboard
I'm honestly not too sure about this. The ratio of Abrupt Decay/Nature's Claim/Golgari Charm feels good. The way of fighting other hate has had it's ups and downs.
Defense Grid against counters has worked wonders in some games, and has been awful in others. I actually think counters are by far the worst enemy of this deck and I'm going to try and find better ways to deal with this.
Ensnaring Bridge has been fine. It's one of those cards that can buy you enough time. Downside here is that this deck doesn't empty it's hand as fast as other Bridge decks.
Collective Brutality is really diverse and comes in both against Burn and counterdecks. These I'm actually happy with.
Grafdigger's Cage I'm mostly trying out against the new Devoted Druid decks, but haven't actually drawn yet.
Wurmcoil Engine I've brought in against both the attrition decks and the burn matches. Against burn it's been fantastic for me each time. Against attrition not so much. They constantly had ways to grind through them, though this deck grinds with the best of them.
For some of these options their usefulness might chance once I test the Myr Retrievers in the main, so I'll leave them mostly the same for now. Tezzeret might become a third Retriever probably.
Anyway, that's the build I've been having great succes with and my plans with it.
Any questions about particular choices or something else, let me know.
Edit: Added the part about cutting Sanctums for colored lands. Forgot about that one.
@Boogelawoof That'd be a shame. Though I might disagree with some buildchoices, your posts are clearly informative and thought out. I just don't agree with your way of dismissing cards, Chalice in this case, or saying things like your deck is close to optimal.
I definitely don't mind opposing views, in fact, they are more than welcome and can help further a discussion or promote new ideas. It's just that if you say things like this as if they're nothing else than facts, then what is the point in discussing them. Why come up with new ideas, or different builds, because that would only make it less optimal in your view. In fact, if the build is so close to optimal and still not getting the appropriate results, is it just bad and should we dismiss the deck? You see, there is nothing to gain from your way of putting forward your ideas and oppinions like this.
I really, really like the way you put effort into your posts, organize and format them and put forward what you think is right and try to explain your thoughtprocess. Leaving room for others might be more constructive to this thread and ultimately this deck though.
On the Everflowing Chalice.
Once the combo gets going I think most is just going through the motion anyway, and you're already winning. You are right that in this case the Chalice doesn't add anything but a (by then) useless 2 mana. The problem is getting to that point where you're going off. Certainly because Chromatic Sphere and Mind Stone can be quite mana-intensive when you're drawing cards off of them, the 2 mana every cycle can be the difference between going off and not going off. As 0-drops I play 4 Opals, 2 Engineered Explosives and 1 Everflowing Chalice. This has been an amount I'm happy with to consistently get a 0cmc when trying to go off.
On speeding your deck up.
I'm not sure how this is bad or useless. In practice the deck has proven time and again that it is very capable of going off turn 3, even through discard and removal. Being able to go off turn 3 means that in some percentage of the time you're actually winning games on the draw you normally wouldn't have, or you're just outracing any answers or clock they might have. And to be clear, though I havent counted over larger samplesize, the percentage of t3 wins is moderately high. (In my 15 rounds at GP Copenhagen I got 7 of them.)
I agree that 3 is way too many and 2 is probably too many. The one in my deck has felt right, alongside 3 Mind Stones.
Edit: I put more effort into explaining my point of view on Boogelawoof's posts.
I want to butt in on this discussion, because I've been reading up from time to time and feel like there's a lot of things being missed/overlooked/ignored. My 'qualifications' are that I've been playing this deck from pre-Pascal Maynard up to a nice run at GP Copenhagen (7-2 into 3-3, playing really bad on day two).
I've always felt strongly against names like "Poached Eggs", which don't inform at all and will just confuse people. Ironworks Combo sounds like a proper name and you can always make a distinction like Ironworks/Trawler Combo.
I've played a lot of Trawler variants and in the end settled on what Michael Jacob has been doing, cutting Sanctums and Hangarback Walkers.
What I've found to be the key to building this deck is that consistency and focus is the most important factor if you want to be able to win fast and through disruption.
Whenever I see someone posting a build that tries to do about 12 things at the same time, I know that that is not going to work consistently. This kind of deck is not like a creature toolbox deck where you can try out all the different things. This deck needs its parts to all face the same direction and work towards one goal. The margins are way too thin to be trying even two things at the same time. Focussing your build translates into wins where you are backed into a corner (plenty of those moments playing this deck) and you have to go off with the bare minimum of resources.
Another thing to always keep an eye on is the proper distribution of 0, 1 and 2-mana cost artifacts. You need to be able to do your Trawler-loop without cmc-holes in them, because these holes literally mean that value is wasted. I've been playing 1 Everflowing Chalice for this purpose and as a one-off it is just great. It's both ramp and 0-cost, so it basically serves two purposes. Mind Stones carddraw ability and 2cmc makes it so I don't want to cut more for Chalices.
Which brings me to something outside the deck and pertaining to this thread and general forum guidelines. I've been hesitant in posting here, mostly because there are some really unconstructive posters here. You gotta realize that saying something like "card X is just the worst", without actually giving arguments, or "this build is close to perfect" doesn't help in any way whatsoever. Same as posting cards which you think might be good, but without testing start saying they're the best that could've happened to this deck.. There are so many posts going every which way, so instead of developing this deck it makes it like you see what's happening here: a dying thread of a deck that's actually really really good.
So that's my two cents. Hope I'm not sounding too lecturer like.
If anyone is interested I can post my GP list later and talk about things I'm testing out next (thanks to ideas from this forum).
Edit: I do want to add that there are actually some great posters too, who actually make wellconstructed arguments and choices. Not trying to be too negative
I'm slowly putting together an Abzan Company deck, a little at a time when I have money and right now I'm looking into the sideboard. Ghostly Prison has done a lot of work before in some of my other decks and was wondering if anyone has tried out Windborn Muse in Abzan Company? It costs a little more than Ghostly Prison, but it can be Chorded for which I'd think would make it more valuable?
You really want to minimize the number of creatures that don't get hit by Company. Redcap is an exception because it can finish the game on the spot. The Muse sounds like a card you'd use to drag out a game, which this deck is already quite capable of.
Something I don't see a lot of people do is playing the Orzhov Pontiff in the main, which I think is the right place for it atm. Against the UW Eldrazi decks it takes out the Mimics and Skyspawners, along with any tokens. Of course it's great against Affinity, Infect and the mirror. I play it in favor of a second mainboard Spellskite, which I've moved to the side.
I played a 154 man PTQ today, finishing 5-2-1 with my version of the deck. In my opinion this deck is criminally underplayed, especially in the midrange oriented meta we have now.
I've chosen to avoid double B, with the exception of Liliana. We have enough other (and sometimes better) options so that we don't need to stress our manabase any further.
I loved the removal-package. It feels like it has enough diversity, both in curve and in use.
The usual game plays out like you would expect: remove, remove, remove, remove, bomb and win. Since we don't have too many wincons, the Thoughtseizes were really good for protecting them, as well as early disruptive interaction. I wouldn't play less than four.
Also the Planeswalker configuration was something I was very happy with and don't see myself changing in this meta.
A summary of the rounds (I didn't take any notes, so mostly forgot how I sideboarded):
Round 1 Jeskai Tempo (this guy won the PTQ in the end)
I'm relieved I don't hardly ever see this matchup anymore. The face-burn is often too much to keep up with.
Game 1 on the play we both mull to six. I get the right combination of Thoughtseize and removal to run him out of cards, after which a Stormbreath brings it home. 1-0
Game 2 is a nailbiter. He pulls ahead, but I remove both boardpresence and hand, and start beating down with Sarkhan. I'm at 7, he's at 4 with one card in hand. Takes his turn, draws a card and double Charms me.. Shucks 1-1
Game 3 I mull to 4. Play turn 2 Tormenting Voice, discard a card.. and get Negated! I should've known not to run that card against decks with counters Weird thing is that somehow I get him into topdeck mode with no boardpresence, with me at 5 and him at 16 life. Don't ask.. But alas, the topdecks went his way. 1-2
I noticed that if we have timely removal for any threat and can remain at a high life-total before they start burning, this mu is doable. I keep Thoughtseizes in. Even though Anger of the Gods kills almost all his threats I really want it to be instant-speed so those come out. They can not win when you resolve an Archangel, so even though it's a long shot, I trust my removal to buy me enough time to get there and as much as win on the spot. (Didn't draw it though I did get to 7 lands both game 2 and 3)
Match 1-2
Total 0-1
Round 2 UB Control
Game 1 goes very long as expected. His Perilous Vault gives my Planeswalkers headache and he ends up with an Ashiok, while I have nothing but Crackling Dooms in the end. 0-1
Game 2 he mulls to 5. Lack of finishers make sure he catches up, but he has no answer to my Empty the Pits. 1-1
Game 3 with 5 minutes on the clock.. Draw
Not sure about this matchup. We have some good cards here and if we land a threat that we can protect it's all good.. But still it doesn't feel very favourable. Looking around the room there were only a few control players around though.
Match 1-1
Total 0-1-1
So, not the start I was hoping for.. Now I need only 6 wins in a row for a spot in top 8. Time to get cracking!
Round 3 Jeskai Tokens
Game 1 he starts off really fast, with little tokens flying every which way. The Anger of the Gods in my hand told me to not worry too much... and he was right. Thinking I was on Mardu midrange he didn't expect the mainboard Anger and it was enough of a blowout he couldnt recover. 1-0
Game 2 he mulls to 5 and whatever he lands dies. Short work. 2-0
Anger is tough for them, plus we have removal for their Ascendancy. Nut draws are probably hard to beat without Anger, but all in all it feels like a good matchup.
Match 2-0
Total 1-1-1
Round 4 Abzan Midrange
This is the kind of deck I'd like to see across from me. And having taken a stroll around the players in the draw-bracket, things are looking good.
Game 1 I mull to 6 on the play and see a land/removal/Thoughtseize hand. Turn 2 I TS his Siege Rhino, and see Lands, Caryatid, Bile Blights and a Doomwake. Wrong cards for this matchup good sir. I proceed to remove any threat and eventually land a finisher which he has no answer for. 1-0.
Game 2 he mulls to 6 and keeps after a long deliberation. He plays land, I play land, he draws a card and passes.. I play Thoughtseize and say upfront I'm probably taking his Caryatid, which he has I didn't have to say anything afterwards, since he was chastising himself enough for that bad keep. We had a good laugh about it in the end 2-0
It's tough for Abzan Midrange to stick a threat against us.. We just outgrind them so hard with our Planeswalkers. It is a match where I usually take out the Lightning Strikes, Magma Jet and Angers and bring in stuff like Hushwings, Resolute Archangel, Glare, an extra Read the Bones and Mardu Charm.
Match 2-0
Total 2-1-1
Round 5 Abzan Midrange
Not too shabby!
Same story so not gonna rehash it all. One moment that was a first for me and made my opponent laugh out loud: I actually ultimated my Liliana with him having two Siege Rhino's and a Wingmate Roc in his graveyard! So that's what an angry Rhino on your side of the board feels like
Match 2-0
Total 3-1-1
Halfway there, only three more to go
Round 6 Jeskai Ascendancy Combo
This was the new Meletis Astronomer version, which I havent played against yet, and it cost me..
Game 1 I don't draw too well, and don't find either Banishing Light or Utter End to take care of his Ascendancy which is in play for 4 turns before he goes off. Crackling Doom would've worked too, as he has his Caryatid loaded up with draw enchantments. Ah well... 0-1
Game 2 goes as it should. I have answers to both his Caryatids and other creatures, Glare of Heresy his Ascendancy and beat him down with a Stormbreath. 1-1
Game 3 is where it goes wrong. After double Thoughtseizing (good thing since he seemed to have drawn a godlike hand) I know he has both an Ascendancy and a God's Willing on hand, but not much else. In play he has a Caryatid and a Meletis Astronomer, which is loaded with 4 different draw enchantments. He ends his turn with both the Caryatid and all his lands tapped so no mana(!). My turn I play my fourth land and among others, have an Utter End and a Glare of Heresy on hand. Utter End of course is very good against the Ascendancy, but if I take out his Astronomer along with 4 enchantments, there's no way he can combo off next turn. Besides, I still have the Glare for his Ascendancy if he casts it. Having a finisher on hand this seemed like the way to go. Sooo. cast Utter End on his Astronomer, he taps Astronomer for white mana for God's Willing Seems like Karametra's Favour can make the creature into a manadork. RTFC as some would say.. He casts Ascendancy and goes off 1-2
So even though I lost this game I feel good about the matchup, but have to play it more often to learn more. It seems our removal for both their guys and their Ascendancy should be enough to delay them and finish it off, but then again, not enough experience to really say.
Match 1-2
Total 3-2-1
Out of contention, on for the booster prizes then.
Round 7 Abzan Whip
This version is a bit tougher than regular midrange, because of Whip-value. I still feel like we're advantaged against them, since their answers match up so poorly against our threats. Ours on the other hand match up great against both their creatures and their Whip.
Game 1 I Thoughtseize his Whip away seeing a mediocre hand of Wingmate Roc, Hornet Queen and Wayfinder, while I have an Anger and Crackling Doom on hand. He doesn't really do much and after Angering his Queen and pesky bugs and Dooming his Roc my Stormbreath Dragon goes all the way. 1-0
Game 2 I get enough Planeswalkers down that even an active Whip and loads of Reanimating isn't enough to get through. Best thing in this game: getting 17 life back with Resolute Archangel! I wasn't in danger falling down to three and knew the Archangel was coming. I just kept hanging on to my removal for after I got back to 20 and although he had a good amount of life he couldn't really do much after that. 2-0
I remember bringing in the Hushwings, Archangel and 3 Erase (both whip and Courser) and probably the Mardu Charm.
Match 2-0
Total 4-2-1
Round 8 Abzan Aggro
Of all the Abzans, this is probably the most difficult. Though the decks comes prepared enough, so I still consider it favorable for us.
Game 1 he's on the play and curves perfectly. Deathdealer into Anafenza into Siege Rhino into Wingmate Rock... Dude, even this deck has it's limits. 0-1
Game 2 on the play I get the time to just trade creatures for removal, taking some damage in the process. I let myself slip down to 6 life before casting Resolute Archangel. His face was priceless! After that the Planeswalkers took over. 1-1
Game 3 he can't get any pressure on through my removal and once again my Planeswalkers take over. Only lifeloss taken was from 3 resolved Siege Rhino's. 2-1
Fourth Abzan deck, fourth win
Match 2-1
Total 5-2-1
Finishes 22nd for a whopping 3 boosters! Score
Midrange was by far the dominant archetype in the room. There was Abzan, Mardu, Sultai, 4c and some Temur. Blue's counters can get a bit difficult sometimes, but in my testing I've found most these variants favorable, and if not at least 50/50.
Some other good matchups I've noticed is aggro in general. we curve our removal to well, and have too much of it... and Anger. Same goes for token strategies, though a bit tougher without Anger. Of course an explosive start from those decks are still hard to beat without a well lined-up hand.
UW-heroic is really really good for us (and there were quite some of those running around today too).
Control I think I'd like to avoid.
I was really happy with my main. I think the card I was most undecided about was the lone Tormenting Voice. This combination of removal, disruption, card-draw, finishers feels like a good place to be right now and I never play any matches that feel hopeless. The manabase might need some work though. Sometimes it feels like I have to many tapped lands. It's hard to balance with not taking too much damage of them though.
Main thing I noticed about the sideboard today was that I brought the lone Mardu Charm in for most of my matchups, and used all of his modes.. This is something that needs further testing, but I know that 1-off in the sideboard is definitely not enough! (Thanks for convincing me Ricardo ;)) I'm a big fan of that weird Archangel. I planned Empty as an extra finished against grindy games like midrange and Whip, but I noticed those were favorable enough to not have to commit another slot in the sideboard for it. Although it is good against control. More testing required, as always
Sooooo, more typing then I set out to do, but I hope to get a more lively topic in here. This deck is truly underplayed in my opinion and deserves more love and more people working on it.
I am a bigger fan of general answers to be honest. I used to run the Forge-Tender when I was still using Chords, but without those it seems lackluster.
I am very happy bringing in another Sin Collector and Entomber Exarch. They actually sort of both gain you life if you take their burn and clear the way for the lifegain that is already prevalent in our decks. They can be podded for instead of having to draw them and more importantly, are good in a number of matchups.
24 land with twelve 4drops, five 5drops and even Karn seems on the low side. I would at least play 25, but preferably 26. On the plus side, I always like jamming a bunch of planeswalkers in a deck! Have you considered playing Tamiyo (for example in stead of Karn), because her interaction with Gideon is great in two different ways.
I know people are mostly dismissing Enlightened Tutor, because of card disadvantage.
I'm guessing the same goes for Mystical Tutor, but I definitely want to try it out though. It cuts the number of Terminus and Entreat I need to play, since I can just tutor them in opponent's turn and Top for the miracle. It looks like a powerful interaction, where the card-disadvantage is mitigated by you surviving by Terminus, or straight up winning with Entreat.
Any thoughts?
Secondly, I decided to come back to this deck now that Once Upon A Time has been printed. I think this card is exactly what this deck wants, free spell, more consistency and pitchable to Allosaurus.
Still undecided about the numbers though. I'm thinking 12 land and cutting some of the extra greens (Life Goes On/Noxious Revival/Dissenter's Deliverance).
I was thinking about something like this:
4 Botanical Sanctum
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Waterlogged Grove
1 Yavimaya Coast
1 Forest
Creatures
4 Allosaurus Rider
2 Autochthon Wurm
4 Chancellor of the Tangle
2 Griselbrand
1 Laboratory Maniac
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Wild Cantor
4 Once Upon a Time
4 Serum Visions
4 Manamorphose
4 Nourishing Shoal
1 Noxious Revival
1 Pact of Negation
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Eldritch Evolution
4 Neoform
2 Pact of Negation
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Oxidize
2 Slaughter Pact
3 Veil of Summer
What are your new lists gonna look like?
Obvious, but good to keep in mind: the Retriever is also handy to protect yourself midcombo from Surgical Extractions.
I've been playing one Walking Ballista in the sideboard, and bring them in against any deck with lots of small creatures. It's a beating against decks like Affinity, Elves and Counter Company.. I don't want more, but the one-off has been good for me. I've also occasionaly brought it in against Death Shadow decks, where they think they're safe to drop really low against us. Not sure if that's correct though.
TKS does sound interesting, and like it has use against a wide variety of MU's. I think I'll be testing those too.
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Spire of Industry
3 Llanowar Wastes
2 Glimmervoid
1 Forest
2 Inventors' Fair
1 Academy Ruins
Creatures
4 Scrap Trawler
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Artifacts
4 Mox Opal
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Everflowing Chalice
4 Chromatic Star
4 Chromatic Sphere
3 Terrarion
1 Nihil Spellbomb
4 Ichor Wellspring
3 Mind Stone
4 Krark-Clan Ironworks
4 Ancient Stirrings
3 Thoughtcast
Planeswalkers
1 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1 Walking Ballista
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Defense Grid
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Nature's Claim
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Golgari Charm
2 Collective Brutality
1 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
On cutting Hangarback Walkers and Sanctums
I did start out with these, and they looked and felt great in playing. So these are the main functions of Hangarbacks: they fetch Emrakul off a Sanctum and ramp you in mana. Secondly they provide early means of survival and an alternate wincon.
Now here is the thing, the moment you are fetching Emrakul with Hangarbacks is almost always when you are steadily going off. Imagine not drawing into an Hangarback. In that case you just keep comboing until you find either it to fetch for Emrakul, or the Emrakul itself. Thing is, cutting the Hangarbacks just makes the combo take longer. But there is a definite upside to cutting them: you can actually run more pieces that ensure you can combo off to start with. Because I don't run them I have room to run more artifacts and carddraw and thus a higher chance to start going off earlier. (So in the case of just looking at manaramp Everflowing Chalice does ramp the same amount, with added benefit of being a manarock before you combo.)
I have never ever had problems getting the combo to run long enough to find Emrakul, even if it is on the bottom, once I got going.
So there are some secondary reasons to running Hangarbacks, being early defense and alternate wincon. The second part is the easiest to answer: I've never needed a second wincon. Recycling Engineered Explosives can take care of anything that could get in Emrakul's way, with her subsequent attack finishing off anything else that's problematic.
As for early defense, this is a part where Hangarback can certainly help. The only redeeming point about my build here is that it is faster, so defense is less important, though I'll certainly admit there are situations where an early Hangarback on def could win you a game which otherwise would've been lost.
There is even an added benefit of cutting Hangarbacks and Sanctums: you can actually run more lands in the deck that produce colored mana. Before, I had definitely run into times where I couldn't cast an Abrupt Decay on a Stony Silence, because my eggs couldn't convert my colorless into the needed black or green. I've been able to run 3 more Llanowar Wastes and the fourth Spire of Industry over the Sanctums and I've only run into this problem one time since. Being able to consistently cast your sideboard cards has been the last straw that convinced me to drop the Hangarbacks.
All in all, when I changed from a Hangarback build to one without, my winpercentage certainly went up, following from being able to more consistently combo off at earlier turns. Hence, I disagree strongly that they are 'the better 0-drop' over Everflowing Chalice.
On my build and changes I'm testing next
I am really happy with my main except for one thing. I talked about focus in this deck before, but there is definitely one card standing out here: Tezzeret. And to be honest, it has been less than good for me. I have too few ways to protect it. The minus into creature mostly meets removal the opponent doesn't have other targets for, and the plus mostly feels like a really expensive Ancient Stirrings. When trying to get the combo going in the early stages, drawing a Tezzeret is often as bad as excess lands you have no use for. Once you are going it's fine, but by that stage it doesn't really add that much either.
So from earlier in this thread, I got the idea of testing out Myr Retriever. It is a card that actually helps in the early stages of comboing and makes discard matches that much better. At least that's what I'm thinking, still have to test these. The second Retriever has such a huge upside in combination with the first that I want to find a second spot in the deck. I'm probably starting out cutting the Tezzeret and the third Thoughtcast.
On the sideboard
I'm honestly not too sure about this. The ratio of Abrupt Decay/Nature's Claim/Golgari Charm feels good. The way of fighting other hate has had it's ups and downs.
Defense Grid against counters has worked wonders in some games, and has been awful in others. I actually think counters are by far the worst enemy of this deck and I'm going to try and find better ways to deal with this.
Ensnaring Bridge has been fine. It's one of those cards that can buy you enough time. Downside here is that this deck doesn't empty it's hand as fast as other Bridge decks.
Collective Brutality is really diverse and comes in both against Burn and counterdecks. These I'm actually happy with.
Grafdigger's Cage I'm mostly trying out against the new Devoted Druid decks, but haven't actually drawn yet.
Wurmcoil Engine I've brought in against both the attrition decks and the burn matches. Against burn it's been fantastic for me each time. Against attrition not so much. They constantly had ways to grind through them, though this deck grinds with the best of them.
For some of these options their usefulness might chance once I test the Myr Retrievers in the main, so I'll leave them mostly the same for now. Tezzeret might become a third Retriever probably.
Anyway, that's the build I've been having great succes with and my plans with it.
Any questions about particular choices or something else, let me know.
Edit: Added the part about cutting Sanctums for colored lands. Forgot about that one.
I definitely don't mind opposing views, in fact, they are more than welcome and can help further a discussion or promote new ideas. It's just that if you say things like this as if they're nothing else than facts, then what is the point in discussing them. Why come up with new ideas, or different builds, because that would only make it less optimal in your view. In fact, if the build is so close to optimal and still not getting the appropriate results, is it just bad and should we dismiss the deck? You see, there is nothing to gain from your way of putting forward your ideas and oppinions like this.
I really, really like the way you put effort into your posts, organize and format them and put forward what you think is right and try to explain your thoughtprocess. Leaving room for others might be more constructive to this thread and ultimately this deck though.
On the Everflowing Chalice.
Once the combo gets going I think most is just going through the motion anyway, and you're already winning. You are right that in this case the Chalice doesn't add anything but a (by then) useless 2 mana. The problem is getting to that point where you're going off. Certainly because Chromatic Sphere and Mind Stone can be quite mana-intensive when you're drawing cards off of them, the 2 mana every cycle can be the difference between going off and not going off. As 0-drops I play 4 Opals, 2 Engineered Explosives and 1 Everflowing Chalice. This has been an amount I'm happy with to consistently get a 0cmc when trying to go off.
On speeding your deck up.
I'm not sure how this is bad or useless. In practice the deck has proven time and again that it is very capable of going off turn 3, even through discard and removal. Being able to go off turn 3 means that in some percentage of the time you're actually winning games on the draw you normally wouldn't have, or you're just outracing any answers or clock they might have. And to be clear, though I havent counted over larger samplesize, the percentage of t3 wins is moderately high. (In my 15 rounds at GP Copenhagen I got 7 of them.)
I agree that 3 is way too many and 2 is probably too many. The one in my deck has felt right, alongside 3 Mind Stones.
Edit: I put more effort into explaining my point of view on Boogelawoof's posts.
I've always felt strongly against names like "Poached Eggs", which don't inform at all and will just confuse people. Ironworks Combo sounds like a proper name and you can always make a distinction like Ironworks/Trawler Combo.
I've played a lot of Trawler variants and in the end settled on what Michael Jacob has been doing, cutting Sanctums and Hangarback Walkers.
What I've found to be the key to building this deck is that consistency and focus is the most important factor if you want to be able to win fast and through disruption.
Whenever I see someone posting a build that tries to do about 12 things at the same time, I know that that is not going to work consistently. This kind of deck is not like a creature toolbox deck where you can try out all the different things. This deck needs its parts to all face the same direction and work towards one goal. The margins are way too thin to be trying even two things at the same time. Focussing your build translates into wins where you are backed into a corner (plenty of those moments playing this deck) and you have to go off with the bare minimum of resources.
Another thing to always keep an eye on is the proper distribution of 0, 1 and 2-mana cost artifacts. You need to be able to do your Trawler-loop without cmc-holes in them, because these holes literally mean that value is wasted. I've been playing 1 Everflowing Chalice for this purpose and as a one-off it is just great. It's both ramp and 0-cost, so it basically serves two purposes. Mind Stones carddraw ability and 2cmc makes it so I don't want to cut more for Chalices.
Which brings me to something outside the deck and pertaining to this thread and general forum guidelines. I've been hesitant in posting here, mostly because there are some really unconstructive posters here. You gotta realize that saying something like "card X is just the worst", without actually giving arguments, or "this build is close to perfect" doesn't help in any way whatsoever. Same as posting cards which you think might be good, but without testing start saying they're the best that could've happened to this deck.. There are so many posts going every which way, so instead of developing this deck it makes it like you see what's happening here: a dying thread of a deck that's actually really really good.
So that's my two cents. Hope I'm not sounding too lecturer like.
If anyone is interested I can post my GP list later and talk about things I'm testing out next (thanks to ideas from this forum).
Edit: I do want to add that there are actually some great posters too, who actually make wellconstructed arguments and choices. Not trying to be too negative
You really want to minimize the number of creatures that don't get hit by Company. Redcap is an exception because it can finish the game on the spot. The Muse sounds like a card you'd use to drag out a game, which this deck is already quite capable of.
Something I don't see a lot of people do is playing the Orzhov Pontiff in the main, which I think is the right place for it atm. Against the UW Eldrazi decks it takes out the Mimics and Skyspawners, along with any tokens. Of course it's great against Affinity, Infect and the mirror. I play it in favor of a second mainboard Spellskite, which I've moved to the side.
This is the list I ran:
4 Temple of Triumph
3 Temple of Malice
4 Nomad Outpost
4 Mountain
1 Swamp
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Caves of Koilos
1 Battlefield Forge
4 Thoughtseize
4 Lightning Strike
1 Magma Jet
1 Tormenting Voice
4 Crackling Doom
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Read the Bones
2 Banishing Light
2 Utter End
2 End Hostilities
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
2 Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
1 Liliana Vess
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
3 Hushwing Gryff
1 Resolute Archangel
3 Erase
2 Magma Spray
1 Magma Jet
1 Mardu Charm
1 Empty the Pits
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Glare of Heresy
1 Read the Bones
I've chosen to avoid double B, with the exception of Liliana. We have enough other (and sometimes better) options so that we don't need to stress our manabase any further.
I loved the removal-package. It feels like it has enough diversity, both in curve and in use.
The usual game plays out like you would expect: remove, remove, remove, remove, bomb and win. Since we don't have too many wincons, the Thoughtseizes were really good for protecting them, as well as early disruptive interaction. I wouldn't play less than four.
Also the Planeswalker configuration was something I was very happy with and don't see myself changing in this meta.
A summary of the rounds (I didn't take any notes, so mostly forgot how I sideboarded):
Round 1 Jeskai Tempo (this guy won the PTQ in the end)
I'm relieved I don't hardly ever see this matchup anymore. The face-burn is often too much to keep up with.
Game 1 on the play we both mull to six. I get the right combination of Thoughtseize and removal to run him out of cards, after which a Stormbreath brings it home. 1-0
Game 2 is a nailbiter. He pulls ahead, but I remove both boardpresence and hand, and start beating down with Sarkhan. I'm at 7, he's at 4 with one card in hand. Takes his turn, draws a card and double Charms me.. Shucks
Game 3 I mull to 4. Play turn 2 Tormenting Voice, discard a card.. and get Negated! I should've known not to run that card against decks with counters
I noticed that if we have timely removal for any threat and can remain at a high life-total before they start burning, this mu is doable. I keep Thoughtseizes in. Even though Anger of the Gods kills almost all his threats I really want it to be instant-speed so those come out. They can not win when you resolve an Archangel, so even though it's a long shot, I trust my removal to buy me enough time to get there and as much as win on the spot. (Didn't draw it though I did get to 7 lands both game 2 and 3)
Match 1-2
Total 0-1
Round 2 UB Control
Game 1 goes very long as expected. His Perilous Vault gives my Planeswalkers headache and he ends up with an Ashiok, while I have nothing but Crackling Dooms in the end. 0-1
Game 2 he mulls to 5. Lack of finishers make sure he catches up, but he has no answer to my Empty the Pits. 1-1
Game 3 with 5 minutes on the clock.. Draw
Not sure about this matchup. We have some good cards here and if we land a threat that we can protect it's all good.. But still it doesn't feel very favourable. Looking around the room there were only a few control players around though.
Match 1-1
Total 0-1-1
So, not the start I was hoping for.. Now I need only 6 wins in a row for a spot in top 8. Time to get cracking!
Round 3 Jeskai Tokens
Game 1 he starts off really fast, with little tokens flying every which way. The Anger of the Gods in my hand told me to not worry too much... and he was right. Thinking I was on Mardu midrange he didn't expect the mainboard Anger and it was enough of a blowout he couldnt recover. 1-0
Game 2 he mulls to 5 and whatever he lands dies. Short work. 2-0
Anger is tough for them, plus we have removal for their Ascendancy. Nut draws are probably hard to beat without Anger, but all in all it feels like a good matchup.
Match 2-0
Total 1-1-1
Round 4 Abzan Midrange
This is the kind of deck I'd like to see across from me. And having taken a stroll around the players in the draw-bracket, things are looking good.
Game 1 I mull to 6 on the play and see a land/removal/Thoughtseize hand. Turn 2 I TS his Siege Rhino, and see Lands, Caryatid, Bile Blights and a Doomwake. Wrong cards for this matchup good sir. I proceed to remove any threat and eventually land a finisher which he has no answer for. 1-0.
Game 2 he mulls to 6 and keeps after a long deliberation. He plays land, I play land, he draws a card and passes.. I play Thoughtseize and say upfront I'm probably taking his Caryatid, which he has
It's tough for Abzan Midrange to stick a threat against us.. We just outgrind them so hard with our Planeswalkers. It is a match where I usually take out the Lightning Strikes, Magma Jet and Angers and bring in stuff like Hushwings, Resolute Archangel, Glare, an extra Read the Bones and Mardu Charm.
Match 2-0
Total 2-1-1
Round 5 Abzan Midrange
Not too shabby!
Same story so not gonna rehash it all. One moment that was a first for me and made my opponent laugh out loud: I actually ultimated my Liliana with him having two Siege Rhino's and a Wingmate Roc in his graveyard! So that's what an angry Rhino on your side of the board feels like
Match 2-0
Total 3-1-1
Halfway there, only three more to go
Round 6 Jeskai Ascendancy Combo
This was the new Meletis Astronomer version, which I havent played against yet, and it cost me..
Game 1 I don't draw too well, and don't find either Banishing Light or Utter End to take care of his Ascendancy which is in play for 4 turns before he goes off. Crackling Doom would've worked too, as he has his Caryatid loaded up with draw enchantments. Ah well... 0-1
Game 2 goes as it should. I have answers to both his Caryatids and other creatures, Glare of Heresy his Ascendancy and beat him down with a Stormbreath. 1-1
Game 3 is where it goes wrong. After double Thoughtseizing (good thing since he seemed to have drawn a godlike hand) I know he has both an Ascendancy and a God's Willing on hand, but not much else. In play he has a Caryatid and a Meletis Astronomer, which is loaded with 4 different draw enchantments. He ends his turn with both the Caryatid and all his lands tapped so no mana(!). My turn I play my fourth land and among others, have an Utter End and a Glare of Heresy on hand. Utter End of course is very good against the Ascendancy, but if I take out his Astronomer along with 4 enchantments, there's no way he can combo off next turn. Besides, I still have the Glare for his Ascendancy if he casts it. Having a finisher on hand this seemed like the way to go. Sooo. cast Utter End on his Astronomer, he taps Astronomer for white mana for God's Willing
So even though I lost this game I feel good about the matchup, but have to play it more often to learn more. It seems our removal for both their guys and their Ascendancy should be enough to delay them and finish it off, but then again, not enough experience to really say.
Match 1-2
Total 3-2-1
Out of contention, on for the booster prizes then.
Round 7 Abzan Whip
This version is a bit tougher than regular midrange, because of Whip-value. I still feel like we're advantaged against them, since their answers match up so poorly against our threats. Ours on the other hand match up great against both their creatures and their Whip.
Game 1 I Thoughtseize his Whip away seeing a mediocre hand of Wingmate Roc, Hornet Queen and Wayfinder, while I have an Anger and Crackling Doom on hand. He doesn't really do much and after Angering his Queen and pesky bugs and Dooming his Roc my Stormbreath Dragon goes all the way. 1-0
Game 2 I get enough Planeswalkers down that even an active Whip and loads of Reanimating isn't enough to get through. Best thing in this game: getting 17 life back with Resolute Archangel! I wasn't in danger falling down to three and knew the Archangel was coming. I just kept hanging on to my removal for after I got back to 20 and although he had a good amount of life he couldn't really do much after that. 2-0
I remember bringing in the Hushwings, Archangel and 3 Erase (both whip and Courser) and probably the Mardu Charm.
Match 2-0
Total 4-2-1
Round 8 Abzan Aggro
Of all the Abzans, this is probably the most difficult. Though the decks comes prepared enough, so I still consider it favorable for us.
Game 1 he's on the play and curves perfectly. Deathdealer into Anafenza into Siege Rhino into Wingmate Rock... Dude, even this deck has it's limits. 0-1
Game 2 on the play I get the time to just trade creatures for removal, taking some damage in the process. I let myself slip down to 6 life before casting Resolute Archangel. His face was priceless! After that the Planeswalkers took over. 1-1
Game 3 he can't get any pressure on through my removal and once again my Planeswalkers take over. Only lifeloss taken was from 3 resolved Siege Rhino's. 2-1
Fourth Abzan deck, fourth win
Match 2-1
Total 5-2-1
Finishes 22nd for a whopping 3 boosters! Score
Midrange was by far the dominant archetype in the room. There was Abzan, Mardu, Sultai, 4c and some Temur. Blue's counters can get a bit difficult sometimes, but in my testing I've found most these variants favorable, and if not at least 50/50.
Some other good matchups I've noticed is aggro in general. we curve our removal to well, and have too much of it... and Anger. Same goes for token strategies, though a bit tougher without Anger. Of course an explosive start from those decks are still hard to beat without a well lined-up hand.
UW-heroic is really really good for us (and there were quite some of those running around today too).
Control I think I'd like to avoid.
I was really happy with my main. I think the card I was most undecided about was the lone Tormenting Voice. This combination of removal, disruption, card-draw, finishers feels like a good place to be right now and I never play any matches that feel hopeless. The manabase might need some work though. Sometimes it feels like I have to many tapped lands. It's hard to balance with not taking too much damage of them though.
Main thing I noticed about the sideboard today was that I brought the lone Mardu Charm in for most of my matchups, and used all of his modes.. This is something that needs further testing, but I know that 1-off in the sideboard is definitely not enough! (Thanks for convincing me Ricardo ;)) I'm a big fan of that weird Archangel. I planned Empty as an extra finished against grindy games like midrange and Whip, but I noticed those were favorable enough to not have to commit another slot in the sideboard for it. Although it is good against control. More testing required, as always
Sooooo, more typing then I set out to do, but I hope to get a more lively topic in here. This deck is truly underplayed in my opinion and deserves more love and more people working on it.
tl;dr
Good deck, play it
I am very happy bringing in another Sin Collector and Entomber Exarch. They actually sort of both gain you life if you take their burn and clear the way for the lifegain that is already prevalent in our decks. They can be podded for instead of having to draw them and more importantly, are good in a number of matchups.
My pile:
4 Burning Earth
3 Ash Zealot (all signed)
His pile:
4 Standstill
I'm guessing the same goes for Mystical Tutor, but I definitely want to try it out though. It cuts the number of Terminus and Entreat I need to play, since I can just tutor them in opponent's turn and Top for the miracle. It looks like a powerful interaction, where the card-disadvantage is mitigated by you surviving by Terminus, or straight up winning with Entreat.
Any thoughts?