I've only pulled this off once, but I have a Sedris, the Traitor King deck that got infinite extra turns and won the game. It depended on a LOT to already be established, though.
where's Thermopod in this thread? For a Sedris, the Traitor King deck, that and Void Maw let you unearth every turn and give you enough for a nice burn spell in your post-combat main phase.
I have a play group at lunch at work (I know, awesome, right?) and played this deck for the first time today in a 4-way free for all. I had Titania's Chosen up to 12/12 (another player was playing mono green) and it quickly became 3 against 1. I ended up losing, but held my own for a while.
There are only 7 token-producers in the deck (am thinking about putting in Elvish Promenade) but I was pumping out the elf warrior tokens pretty well, especially with Parallel Lives out.
I'd welcome any and all suggestions!
(edit: I should add, this deck is at 62 cards because my playgroup doesn't like Planeswalkers very much (not all have them and some are confused by how they work), so when I take out my 2x Nissa Revane I'm right at 60 cards. Otherwise I can just drop a couple Archers to hit 60.)
I still don't understand the down-side to this card, but maybe that's just a lack of experience.
The argument seems to be that I never have a choice of what he is, my opponent does. Well, that seems pretty obvious given the card text.
My argument is that I DON'T CARE what he is. I'm not building a deck around this guy, I'm putting him in instead of 2 creatures and 2 burn spells (if I even 4-of him). If I have a fireslinger or a noble on T1, I'm playing those instead of Devil, especially if I have a Berserker in hand as well. But when I do play Devil, I really don't care if he's 4 to the face or a 4/3 creature. Either option brings my Phoenix back to hand. Either option helps a creature based RDW deck.
I just don't believe the argument that he's my opponent's choice is so strong if I'm not building around him but instead playing him as option B.
That may be your only play. The point is there are many times where he will be a dead card in a burn deck.
I agree that by the time your life total is at a place that 1 more turn for your opponent could kill you, you could be empty handed and drawing your hand each turn. And drawing Vexing Devil at that point won't help since the opponent will choose whichever option works best for him/her.
But here's the question. How would you feel about drawing Goblin Guide in that situation? Stromkirk Noble? Stormblood Berserker? I'd argue that unless the reason you're about to die is to zerg and your opponent took the 4 from Vexing Devil, it really isn't different. But nobody's arguing against 4-of for those cards.
Best when used turns 3-6. First couple turns you want to drop Noble, Neonate, Berserker, etc.
Consider this though. Turn 3+, drop Devil. Opponent lets it resolve. Cast Uncanny Speed and swing with a 7/3 haste.
While you may not have wanted him to resolve then, a good back-up plan will let you take advantage of whichever choice your opponent makes. That kills blocking titans and is something that needs to be blocked, allowing your other guys to get through and hopefully get more counters.
Now, Uncanny Speed may not get too much play, but it's just a quick example of a way to make either choice your opponent makes hurt him/her.
Your opponent kills you before you get another turn.
Then dropping him was a bad play. Every card you play requires a form of situational awareness, and Vexing Devil is no exception. I just feel he has fewer negative situations than others here are theorizing.
Seriously, worst case scenario, you get to draw 7 cards for 5 mana. 7 cards... for 5 mana..... Forget everything else, thats insane! And before you say "refilling your opponents hands is bad", it can also be a good thing if they hold in their hands superb cards that would have won them the game.
Biggest problem with this as well as majority of the other miracle cards, there are a few instances where you draw the card and you DON'T want to play its Miracle cost. For example, got a hand of 5 cards, win-cons in it, and then i draw this.
If that's the case then you should win and won't need to play the card anyway.
The only reason they are going to let you have it on turn 1-3 is because they are going to kill/trump/neutralize it before it ever attacks.
You missed the point, they are not going to let you have the body. If they don't pay the life it means it is about to die.
Your not going to get a fatty early unless your opponent is an idiot. If you play it early they will either take 4(which is good) it is about to be neutralized(which means you are now down a card).
I'm not saying it is a bad card, but to look at it as a 4/3 is wrong. It is a 4 damage burn spell, that your opponent can counter with creatures, removal PW, ect...
So here's the breakdown of what will happen when you play Vexing Devil.
1. Opponent decides to lose 4 life.
Me: Yay! Lightning Bolt +1 Woohooo!!
2. Opponent decides to keep it on the table and doesn't kill it in the next turn or two.
Me: Yay! a 4/3 creature to swing with and possibly pump up! Woohooo!
3. Opponent decides to keep it on the table and summarily removes it.
Me: Yay! One less Doom Blade/Dismember/Whatever that he'll use on my other creatures, that I care about more than this one! Woohooo!
In my opinion, this card is a no-brainer 4-of in my RDW. Here's my creature list at the moment (without sideboard which includes Koth, Hellriders, Hero, etc.) for RDW:
Chandra's Phoenix: Vexing Devil playing or dying or whatever has no impact on her.
Goblin Fireslinger: Same (will probably take out for Vexing Devil)
Stromkirk Noble: Opponent focusing on Vexing Devil means I can swing with this guy and get him up
Stormblood Berzerker: Same
Bloodcrazed Neonate: Same
And I 4x Volt Charge for my Shrines and the last 3 guys there, so honestly making my opponent focus on Vexing Devil really helps keep these guys around for larger swings. Theoretically, at least, since I obviously haven't played with Vexing Devil yet.
Early on this is just four damage for R, not bad but not very spectacular. Later on when creatures get irrelevant for RDW this is just a big guy without evasion, practically irrelevant.
"Early on this is just four damage for R, not bad but not spectacular."
Actually, early on this isn't a creature. This is a burn spell. I wouldn't replace Stromkirk Noble, Stormblood Berzerker, Phoenix, or other creatures for this guy. R for 4 damage. That's the best burn spell printed. When Lightning Bolts rotate in, doesn't everybody play them? This is 1 more point of damage for the same cost.
As for it being practically irrelevant later on, exactly how much later are you talking about? Turn 10? If RDW gets to turn 10 it's likely already lost. Do you mean turn 5? A 4/3 for R turns 1-5 is still great. Just imagine what you could couple him with. Can you really think of no instants, enchantments, or equipments you could use with this guy very early on since he's so cheap, should your opponent decide to leave him on the board?
A card like Uncanny Speed is 1R and gives +3 and haste. Vexing Devil turn 3 just turned into 7 damage for 3 mana. And that's just one possibility, and from an instant spell few are likely to put in their deck.
He's also a distraction. I'd rather, if he's stuck on the board, my opponent think about him than think about my Stromkirk or Bloodcrazed Neonite or Berzerker or Shrine.
Sorry for the corny start. Hey folks. New around these parts, and will probably hang out a lot in the RDW sub-forum. Looks like a great site, can't wait to dive in!
I had the Tidespout Tyrant, Sol Ring, and Mana Vault combo out.
With Izzet Chronarch being unearthed, I abused his ETB ability to keep pulling either Time Stretch or Time Warp.
And I had Void Maw and Thermopod to break unearth's exile.
The goal was to keep getting creatures to ETB for Warstorm Surge or combat steps.
Not quite full-on demons, but get a U/B/X in there and demons can be fun. Not necessarily for the win, but in casual/fun, they're pretty cool.
There are only 7 token-producers in the deck (am thinking about putting in Elvish Promenade) but I was pumping out the elf warrior tokens pretty well, especially with Parallel Lives out.
I'm going to add more ramp with Fyndhorn Elves (at which point Rampant Growth will come out) and maybe Arbor Elf, and then add Joraga Warcaller as well. I'm thinking about splurging on Green Sun's Zenith but am not positive it's necessary and it's an expensive card. Elvish Champion may get a home in here as well
I'd welcome any and all suggestions!
(edit: I should add, this deck is at 62 cards because my playgroup doesn't like Planeswalkers very much (not all have them and some are confused by how they work), so when I take out my 2x Nissa Revane I'm right at 60 cards. Otherwise I can just drop a couple Archers to hit 60.)
4x Titania's Chosen
4x Llanowar Elves
4x Imperious Perfect
3x Lys Alana Huntmaster
4x Elvish Archdruid
2x Nissa's Chosen
4x Ezuri, Renegade Leader
4x Ezuri's Archers
2x Jagged-Scar Archers
2x Asceticism
2x Parallel Lives
Spells/Instants
3x Naturalize
4x Rampant Growth
Land
18x Forest
2x Nissa Revane
The argument seems to be that I never have a choice of what he is, my opponent does. Well, that seems pretty obvious given the card text.
My argument is that I DON'T CARE what he is. I'm not building a deck around this guy, I'm putting him in instead of 2 creatures and 2 burn spells (if I even 4-of him). If I have a fireslinger or a noble on T1, I'm playing those instead of Devil, especially if I have a Berserker in hand as well. But when I do play Devil, I really don't care if he's 4 to the face or a 4/3 creature. Either option brings my Phoenix back to hand. Either option helps a creature based RDW deck.
I just don't believe the argument that he's my opponent's choice is so strong if I'm not building around him but instead playing him as option B.
I agree that by the time your life total is at a place that 1 more turn for your opponent could kill you, you could be empty handed and drawing your hand each turn. And drawing Vexing Devil at that point won't help since the opponent will choose whichever option works best for him/her.
But here's the question. How would you feel about drawing Goblin Guide in that situation? Stromkirk Noble? Stormblood Berserker? I'd argue that unless the reason you're about to die is to zerg and your opponent took the 4 from Vexing Devil, it really isn't different. But nobody's arguing against 4-of for those cards.
Consider this though. Turn 3+, drop Devil. Opponent lets it resolve. Cast Uncanny Speed and swing with a 7/3 haste.
While you may not have wanted him to resolve then, a good back-up plan will let you take advantage of whichever choice your opponent makes. That kills blocking titans and is something that needs to be blocked, allowing your other guys to get through and hopefully get more counters.
Now, Uncanny Speed may not get too much play, but it's just a quick example of a way to make either choice your opponent makes hurt him/her.
Then dropping him was a bad play. Every card you play requires a form of situational awareness, and Vexing Devil is no exception. I just feel he has fewer negative situations than others here are theorizing.
If that's the case then you should win and won't need to play the card anyway.
So here's the breakdown of what will happen when you play Vexing Devil.
1. Opponent decides to lose 4 life.
Me: Yay! Lightning Bolt +1 Woohooo!!
2. Opponent decides to keep it on the table and doesn't kill it in the next turn or two.
Me: Yay! a 4/3 creature to swing with and possibly pump up! Woohooo!
3. Opponent decides to keep it on the table and summarily removes it.
Me: Yay! One less Doom Blade/Dismember/Whatever that he'll use on my other creatures, that I care about more than this one! Woohooo!
In my opinion, this card is a no-brainer 4-of in my RDW. Here's my creature list at the moment (without sideboard which includes Koth, Hellriders, Hero, etc.) for RDW:
Chandra's Phoenix: Vexing Devil playing or dying or whatever has no impact on her.
Goblin Fireslinger: Same (will probably take out for Vexing Devil)
Stromkirk Noble: Opponent focusing on Vexing Devil means I can swing with this guy and get him up
Stormblood Berzerker: Same
Bloodcrazed Neonate: Same
And I 4x Volt Charge for my Shrines and the last 3 guys there, so honestly making my opponent focus on Vexing Devil really helps keep these guys around for larger swings. Theoretically, at least, since I obviously haven't played with Vexing Devil yet.
"Early on this is just four damage for R, not bad but not spectacular."
Actually, early on this isn't a creature. This is a burn spell. I wouldn't replace Stromkirk Noble, Stormblood Berzerker, Phoenix, or other creatures for this guy. R for 4 damage. That's the best burn spell printed. When Lightning Bolts rotate in, doesn't everybody play them? This is 1 more point of damage for the same cost.
As for it being practically irrelevant later on, exactly how much later are you talking about? Turn 10? If RDW gets to turn 10 it's likely already lost. Do you mean turn 5? A 4/3 for R turns 1-5 is still great. Just imagine what you could couple him with. Can you really think of no instants, enchantments, or equipments you could use with this guy very early on since he's so cheap, should your opponent decide to leave him on the board?
A card like Uncanny Speed is 1R and gives +3 and haste. Vexing Devil turn 3 just turned into 7 damage for 3 mana. And that's just one possibility, and from an instant spell few are likely to put in their deck.
He's also a distraction. I'd rather, if he's stuck on the board, my opponent think about him than think about my Stromkirk or Bloodcrazed Neonite or Berzerker or Shrine.
Sorry for the corny start. Hey folks. New around these parts, and will probably hang out a lot in the RDW sub-forum. Looks like a great site, can't wait to dive in!
- Rasputin