IF going this route of the deck i would like to see it become RWB aggro/sligh kinda deck; not so focused around bushwhacker. Black does add utility, so take advantage of that. If playing black white, i would consider:
I know that is more mid-range-esque, maybe if you wanted to go on a more creature-based aggro deck consider running no blightnings and bringing in Ancient Ziggurat. This is all of the top of my head
Does this deck work in white? playing white gives you an extra 8 1CC cyclers, and opens up martial COUP as an sweeper/win con? White has decent removal too...
A 1 of forge tender maindeck is incredible. Considering the current meta (for me anyways) seems to be Jund, Fae and Kith, having the forge-tender main is pretty cool. Makes for easy sideboarding too.
Infest is bad times for this deck, but havent seen it around too much to be honest. I think fae is prolly the only MU where it would be boarded in, and to be fair if you are boarding the aggro plan, infest does not work that well vs stags or oversouls.
Maelstrom pulse seems a bit slow for me too. Many games with elves i have eaten 2 or 3 pulses in the early few turns but its alright, because they dont get threats down. Just make sure to aggro with your nettles in the meantime if they can get through. Vs Jund/Kithkin it is always nice when they stop you from comboing off, but they can't attack (at least attack and pump leech) because you have enough vanilla men to just race them. (Yes nettle is a 2/2 for 1...)
@ dakotahorn; i find windbrisks alot easier to activate than mossbridges in my experience. Not to say they are better because both have good for/against. With 10 power on the board i usually found i was winning well and truly anyways. However, being able to use 2 forge tenders and a ranger in the jund matchup to primal is pretty sweet.
Aye forge-tender is indeed awesome for red sweepers, but ive ben seeing alot of hate from the likes of infest and pulse, which by-pass the bft.
Still not 100% sure that it should be MD, but has worked pretty well so far. I do however keep forgetting that primal can shuffle all the dead guys back in again, but lark is more of an instant fix and can bring out the elves needed for heritage mana, allowing you to get more guys down in one turn after a sweep.
My IP address (University net?) Is blocked from these forums... I have no idea why. However, i did have to use an IP Proxy just to log in here to reply to a few of the previous posts.
At the Top 8 of Australian nationals, my opponent (jund) did SB in thought hemorrage against me. He netted 3 of the primals i had left in my deck. However, i by no way felt low on gas as i still had 4 forge tenders and large beats. If you are scared of thought hem, just diversify your threats by siding in one or 2 Oversoul of Dusk.
Personally, I do not see path to exile as nescessary. @ Knowledge: I ran 2 manamorphose and 1 mirror entity in place of the paths in your list. ME is incredible, allowing you to primal for it and win on that turn. When comboing off i made a pile of creatures which were not summoning sick just for this reason. I found playing against jund that they would use pulses/fallouts etc killing your heritage druids/forge tenders and ME would just win with your left over devoteds etc.
Red splash = no.
@ Compulsive: For me sideboard is mainly a transormational aggro board vs faeries. The 3 forgetenders (1 MD) is obvious against red. Then i run 4 Stags, 3 oversouls and 3 cloudthreshers. Pridemages are important vs kithkin for taking out their cannonists, without giving them land drops.
MB on the otherhand, ME is really really strong. At nats many games a primalled T3 to set kithkin back a land drop and searched a ME to win next turn. ME + Archdruid is just that strong. Manamorphose helps you hit your rangers/white splashes and is actually a ritual once you start comboing off, untapping nettles for free. Also, MM allows you to go looped primal commands in the worst endgame situation, where you need to shuffle primals/MM's back in, MM draw primal etc. Happened once or twice in the swiss.
Low curve, if you cut White Orchid for Meadowgrain, you can then cut the Jackal Familiar for Goldmeadow Stalwart. I think stalwart would be runnable with 14 kithkin. I think the deck kinda wants Elspeth too, maybe as a 2 of. If you run elspeth, and you already have honor of the pure, could possibly consider Hearthfire Hobgoblin.
But Ajani is a 'groan' planeswalker. Elspeth just gets out there and wins. Can blightning really afford not to kill Elspeth? You say Ajani is good because of life gain it brings; yet they NEED to kill Elspeth (Or they die from 6 in the air from finks's), and they will end up dealing like 6 damage to kill the Elspeth. I just find im playing against bitterblossom SO much lately, and that vengeant is really bad vs blossom.
We are talking about dropping a vengeant on turn 4 and tapping a land to hold them back, what if we drop an elspeth on turn 4, attack for 6 in air with finks?, 5 first strike with Ko2. If they didnt have an answer that turn, 5cc will NEED to tap out to deal with that, or volcanic in response to the elspeth pump, wasting their sweeper on a Ko2. Then you are free to siege gang and win.
I know Vengeant is a strong card, but does the meta really let him be that tough at the moment?
In all honesty; how have you guys been finding ajani vengeant? I find it almost unplayable at the moment. It does nothing vs fae really so i want to side it out. VS Blightning, i play 4 to to tap a land down, or to burn a bitterblossom token, then they drop a Ram gang or a blightning to kill it. Vs BRG haste creatures just end up trumping it. Vs Doran they only NEED to attack with one creature due to exalted etc, so keepin doran tapped and letting them attack with war monk is not so tech. Bw tokens is the same again; besides killing their ajani, i havent found too much use for vengeant. I have found that vengeant is only useful vs 5cc; which i 100x prefer elspeth.
@ Johnny: Yeah good luck at regionals mate; im in the same boat. (Pun. god that was ****) I also agree about the FM vs elspeth thing. However, ive been running 1 Elspeth in my MD (My list is pg 171, but SB is pretty dif atm) What do you rekon of that list? Im curious to see your opinions on it.
@ Mao: BW tokens is a harsh matchup, Ive been testing against the persist version which has been popping up recently. Pretty much, Ajani Goldmane must die. Giving infi lives to finks/redcap is pretty harsh. As long as you know what they are playing you can play around it (in a way). Personally, I have found 4 Galepowder Mage and 2 Austere Command to be helpful from the board, but not nescessarily a winner.
Stillmoon wont help us coz of their zealous persecutions/wraths.
Post board, things to watch out for from them are: Puppeteer Clique (The nuts with goldmane), and plenty of wraths.
TO be honest man, i think it is nearly at a point where you have to classify either as BW AGGRO tokens, or BW PERSIST Tokens. One is a control deck, one is an aggro deck. Identifying which you are against early will determine how you play it out (And sideboard)
Well since you have protection from it they cant target you... and they have to target something So they are forced to anathemancer themselves, which is pretty much yes, it does work in a very very very good way
At this point you call a judge and get him DQed for cheating. He named Cruel, looked at your hand and then changed his target. This is clear cheating and you bent over and took it, why would you do that!?
I agree in that we have really subpar artifact AND enchant removal in one card. 5cc control can be annoying that they can side in Needle, Stone, Runed Halo and your not sure. Smash, would probably be the best choice of dedicated artifact removal; but you arent guaranteed that they will be playing artifacts. Stingmoggie would also be an interesting sideboard slot vs 5cc (Esp if you already side in fulminator mages). It would take a few turns to go through, but if the moggie gets through killing lands you would be in a good spot. (Probably WAY to slow)
Personally i would be thinking Aura of Silence would be your best bet to sideboard. It manages to kill artifacts or enchantments. And the +2 mana ability seems some good. Also, if you had that in your side, you would DOMINATE esper based decks (which you should already :P)
I would take out two Reflecting pools and go to 5 Plains/5 Mountains. For a more consistent manabase, it would be good to not set yourself up to have 2 or 3 Ruggeds and Reflecting Pools to open.
Have you also thought about Duergar Hedge-Mage instead of Wispmares in your SB? They can take out an artifact and an enchantment and can be larked back.
Also, consider a singleton Mistveil Plains. It can make late game RoE more effective.
Duergar Hedge-Mage is really bad in this deck atm, as you need to have TWO plains in play for it to work. The occasion in which you get 2 mountains is so rare you might as well forget that ability. Wispmare also is a STURDY blocker of bitterblossom tokens. Evoke is just gravy ontop of its effective body to allow you to tempo well early game after they tap out for T2 BB.
Personally, I have been running Celestial Purge > Wispmare in my SB as of late. I run a couple more Austere commands. But that is highly meta dependant. Although, besides the BW token MU (Which i actually use Galepowders for), Purge is really handy vs Bloodbraid Elf. Dec, Planeswalker Control, Blightning (DUH). Might be worth a thought.
Johnny: I read your thoughts on Ko2, And i agree i do prefer to see Mindstone over him most of the time, HOWEVER, you do need a good creature early in the game to start pressuring fae / blocking blightning. I run 4 Kitchen Finks, 4 Knight of the White orchid, and i lose G1 vs blightning at FNM (I came 1st), due to being unable to slow his Hellsparks early in G1. G2 i have turn 2 Ko2 (On the play), and he attributed the loss to having 2 dead hellsparks in hand.
Archmage: Thats a fairly strong list. However, I really really think siege gang needs to be a 4-of. I personally would drop the banefire for the 4th SGC. Personally i prefer the mana accel of mindstone / ko2 in this deck over the extra threats/answers your running (wrath, incinerate, 4th vengeant etc). I find that if you can drop a T4 siege gang commander and they dont have an answer in hand/deck, you should win that game.
Although i agree with you dreinal on the fact that this deck is still highly competitive; i really dont think this deck wins due to one-sided armeggedons as control. Our main advantage is card advantage. We have nearly every card in this deck capable of 2 for 1 ing, up to 4 for 1ing (or in the right circumstances, even more). Even have 4 lands which can 'draw'.
Mana accel, pinpoint removal, card advantage, ability to build tremendous board position with a single spell, excellent sideboard choices, and now persist threats/lark to HOLD board position. The only deck im a little bit jittery playing against right now is BW tokens; but i have been siding out larks to have 4 Galepowder mage and it seems to get there.
I really really really really really disagree with a black splash. By splashing black you will run vivids/borderposts making US susceptible to Anathemancer (more), as well as slowing down starts and consistency. It sucks enough drawing a windbrisk when you want to hit your 4-drop; let alone having 8 CIPT 'lands'. Also, turn 3 anathemancer is lame. Gray Ogre with a lava spike? Not so good for us; 2/2 vanilla body doesnt come close to comparing with Kitchen finks. This deck has late game enough with SUPER card advantage.
Sure the BR cards in alara reborn are nice; but honestly if you are playing Anathemancer, Thought hemorhhage etc; why play white anymore? Anathemancer; Knight's (And even spectral if you so wish to play it) do not belong in the same deck in my opinion.
4 Arid Mesa
4 Dragonskull Summit
11 Basics
4 Goblin Guide
4 Vampire Lacerator
2 Goblin Bushwhacker
3 Elite Vanguard
3 Ranger of Eos
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Path to Exile
3 Terminate
2 Burst Lightning
I know that is more mid-range-esque, maybe if you wanted to go on a more creature-based aggro deck consider running no blightnings and bringing in Ancient Ziggurat. This is all of the top of my head
Infest is bad times for this deck, but havent seen it around too much to be honest. I think fae is prolly the only MU where it would be boarded in, and to be fair if you are boarding the aggro plan, infest does not work that well vs stags or oversouls.
Maelstrom pulse seems a bit slow for me too. Many games with elves i have eaten 2 or 3 pulses in the early few turns but its alright, because they dont get threats down. Just make sure to aggro with your nettles in the meantime if they can get through. Vs Jund/Kithkin it is always nice when they stop you from comboing off, but they can't attack (at least attack and pump leech) because you have enough vanilla men to just race them. (Yes nettle is a 2/2 for 1...)
@ dakotahorn; i find windbrisks alot easier to activate than mossbridges in my experience. Not to say they are better because both have good for/against. With 10 power on the board i usually found i was winning well and truly anyways. However, being able to use 2 forge tenders and a ranger in the jund matchup to primal is pretty sweet.
At the Top 8 of Australian nationals, my opponent (jund) did SB in thought hemorrage against me. He netted 3 of the primals i had left in my deck. However, i by no way felt low on gas as i still had 4 forge tenders and large beats. If you are scared of thought hem, just diversify your threats by siding in one or 2 Oversoul of Dusk.
Personally, I do not see path to exile as nescessary. @ Knowledge: I ran 2 manamorphose and 1 mirror entity in place of the paths in your list. ME is incredible, allowing you to primal for it and win on that turn. When comboing off i made a pile of creatures which were not summoning sick just for this reason. I found playing against jund that they would use pulses/fallouts etc killing your heritage druids/forge tenders and ME would just win with your left over devoteds etc.
Red splash = no.
@ Compulsive: For me sideboard is mainly a transormational aggro board vs faeries. The 3 forgetenders (1 MD) is obvious against red. Then i run 4 Stags, 3 oversouls and 3 cloudthreshers. Pridemages are important vs kithkin for taking out their cannonists, without giving them land drops.
MB on the otherhand, ME is really really strong. At nats many games a primalled T3 to set kithkin back a land drop and searched a ME to win next turn. ME + Archdruid is just that strong. Manamorphose helps you hit your rangers/white splashes and is actually a ritual once you start comboing off, untapping nettles for free. Also, MM allows you to go looped primal commands in the worst endgame situation, where you need to shuffle primals/MM's back in, MM draw primal etc. Happened once or twice in the swiss.
We are talking about dropping a vengeant on turn 4 and tapping a land to hold them back, what if we drop an elspeth on turn 4, attack for 6 in air with finks?, 5 first strike with Ko2. If they didnt have an answer that turn, 5cc will NEED to tap out to deal with that, or volcanic in response to the elspeth pump, wasting their sweeper on a Ko2. Then you are free to siege gang and win.
I know Vengeant is a strong card, but does the meta really let him be that tough at the moment?
@ Mao: BW tokens is a harsh matchup, Ive been testing against the persist version which has been popping up recently. Pretty much, Ajani Goldmane must die. Giving infi lives to finks/redcap is pretty harsh. As long as you know what they are playing you can play around it (in a way). Personally, I have found 4 Galepowder Mage and 2 Austere Command to be helpful from the board, but not nescessarily a winner.
Stillmoon wont help us coz of their zealous persecutions/wraths.
Post board, things to watch out for from them are: Puppeteer Clique (The nuts with goldmane), and plenty of wraths.
TO be honest man, i think it is nearly at a point where you have to classify either as BW AGGRO tokens, or BW PERSIST Tokens. One is a control deck, one is an aggro deck. Identifying which you are against early will determine how you play it out (And sideboard)
No he didnt... read it clearly.
Personally i would be thinking Aura of Silence would be your best bet to sideboard. It manages to kill artifacts or enchantments. And the +2 mana ability seems some good. Also, if you had that in your side, you would DOMINATE esper based decks (which you should already :P)
Duergar Hedge-Mage is really bad in this deck atm, as you need to have TWO plains in play for it to work. The occasion in which you get 2 mountains is so rare you might as well forget that ability. Wispmare also is a STURDY blocker of bitterblossom tokens. Evoke is just gravy ontop of its effective body to allow you to tempo well early game after they tap out for T2 BB.
Personally, I have been running Celestial Purge > Wispmare in my SB as of late. I run a couple more Austere commands. But that is highly meta dependant. Although, besides the BW token MU (Which i actually use Galepowders for), Purge is really handy vs Bloodbraid Elf. Dec, Planeswalker Control, Blightning (DUH). Might be worth a thought.
Johnny: I read your thoughts on Ko2, And i agree i do prefer to see Mindstone over him most of the time, HOWEVER, you do need a good creature early in the game to start pressuring fae / blocking blightning. I run 4 Kitchen Finks, 4 Knight of the White orchid, and i lose G1 vs blightning at FNM (I came 1st), due to being unable to slow his Hellsparks early in G1. G2 i have turn 2 Ko2 (On the play), and he attributed the loss to having 2 dead hellsparks in hand.
Archmage: Thats a fairly strong list. However, I really really think siege gang needs to be a 4-of. I personally would drop the banefire for the 4th SGC. Personally i prefer the mana accel of mindstone / ko2 in this deck over the extra threats/answers your running (wrath, incinerate, 4th vengeant etc). I find that if you can drop a T4 siege gang commander and they dont have an answer in hand/deck, you should win that game.
Mana accel, pinpoint removal, card advantage, ability to build tremendous board position with a single spell, excellent sideboard choices, and now persist threats/lark to HOLD board position. The only deck im a little bit jittery playing against right now is BW tokens; but i have been siding out larks to have 4 Galepowder mage and it seems to get there.
Also try using enter when typing paragraphs
Sure the BR cards in alara reborn are nice; but honestly if you are playing Anathemancer, Thought hemorhhage etc; why play white anymore? Anathemancer; Knight's (And even spectral if you so wish to play it) do not belong in the same deck in my opinion.