Has anyone tested stubborn denial in the board? It seems like a better version of negate to me. I've had moderate success with it this far. 5-0 and 4-1 in several leagues and 3-1 at FNM.
This is where I've started. I'm hoping to make the trek to FNM later this week with it. I haven't had a chance to do much but goldfish at this point. Any advice is appreciated.
Tasigur is insane. But I didn't want to play Thought Scour to fuel it or risk shutting off Delirium and making my Grim Flayers 2/2s.
No Ancestral Visions
It's a great card for grinding advantage but it's often a dead draw later in the game. Last time I played FNM my meta was pretty much just aggro. I'm just not a fan.
Sideboard: Fog or Darkness
A fun card against infect or all-in creature based strategies. It can buy you some turns and burn through some of their pump spells.
Scavenging Ooze
Graveyard Hate and Life gain in one shiny little beater.
Alright, this updated versions been solid as a rock for me. Gaddock was that last key I needed to sure up a couple matches. Guest and that path could be something else non creature like Explosives or clasm. Up to you really. But this has been over preforming for me.
I had a similar list with blue instead of white for gitaxian probe, serum visions, and stormchaser mage. It's a ton of fun to play until you come up against a deck with lightning bolt. I routinely shot myself for 10-14 every game just for prowess triggers and mana fixing.
I like Wheel a lot but I wonder how useful it actually will be in a match. You're siding in an enchantment to protect you from a combo in an enchantment based deck. Your opponent is going to bring in enchantment removal because your win condition is voltron.
It probably doesn't matter as then they're wasting resources on that instead of on the enchantments that let you get through for lethal. Just curious about that logic, though.
Don't think visions belongs. I'd imagine if it were good in delver decks it would be played frequently in the legacy delver lists, but as far as i know it is not. I think U/R delver will have great matchups against the AV style decks though. They will be less likely to have 1 mana open early game if they want to visions (could be a removal spell) and if not, they have a dead card. Also remand is perfect against it for when it finally comes off suspend. If aggro decks see a decline (zoo and other blitz decks) and AV decks become more popular i think we can do pretty well. Thoughts guys?
Legacy UR delver doesn't play visions because it's worse than preordain, ponder, or brainstorm. You also don't have the time to wait for it.
I'm not saying AV is right for this deck but I think it's way better than serum visions.
This ban talk is upsetting. Inkmoth Nexus? Eidolon of the Great Revel? Outside of Eldrazi, all these bans just represent a race to the bottom where we keep banning one strong strategy only for another to take its place, only for that to get banned to and another to rise up and inevitably fall to yet another ban. Modern can't survive that pattern in the long-term and we shouldn't encourage it here or elsewhere.
^
This times one thousand. Affinity is good but I don't think it's ban worthy. I've never had an issue beating it with any control or agro deck. I was something like 19-2 against the affinity in my meta when I was playing Grixis control but I guess main deck Kolaghan's Command is sort of unfair.
Banning the top deck in the meta rarely makes sense. It does for eldrazi and it did for blazingshoalmoth but didn't really strike me as needed for pod or twin. Those two archetypes weren't nearly as dominate or as fast as a "turn 3" format banning would really dictate. If effectively killing your opponent on turn 3 is too good then shouldn't Karn be banned as well? I don't think so personally but it can be frustrating to lose the die roll and have your second land drop exiled. Karn Liberated is clearly too good.[/sarcasm]
I think that they'll be Modern-playable to a degree. It wouldn't surprise me if some lists ran them as a one-of to be slightly better to fetch later on than a shockland, but I could be wrong.
I totally agree with your opinion. I also think they will be extremely viable in two color decks like bogles. Why shock myself when I can go basic, basic, tango land?
This is what I played at FNM tonight. Went 4-1 with a top 8 split. (Free Path!)
Round 1: Affinity
Game 1: I get slaughtered. I kept Delver, Tasigur, Young Pyro, Gitaxian Probe, and three land. I only draw lands and creatures.
-3 Young Pyro -1 Git prove + 1 Darkness +1 Hurkyl's +2 Staticaster
Game 2: I stabilize thanks to Terminate, a few bolts, and Kolaghan's command. Snapcaster is just gravy.
Game 3: I keep a removal heavy hand and land a turn two tasigur off of fetches + thought scour and it gets there.
Round 2: Grixis Twin
Game 1: I see all my burn and a few snapcasters but end up a few points short when he assembles the combo. No counters or terminates.
-3 Young Pyromancer -3 Gitaxian Probe +2 Dispel +1 spell pierce +2 Vapor Snag +1 Go for the Throat
Game 2: History repeats itself and I just can't kill him before he assembles the combo. No counters for me.
Round 3: Abzhan Coco
Game 1: I keep Delver x2 Gurmag Angler serum vision x2 land land. My opponent mulligans to four. I only see land and he manages to get the full combo on turn four.
-3 Young Pyromancer -1 Gitaxian Probe -1 Serum visions +1 Relic of Prog +1 Go for the throat +2 Deathmark
Game 2: I kill every creature he plays and kill him with snapcasters and burn.
Game 3: My opponent manages to resolve two cocos and only hits Anafenza off the first and one kitchen finks off the second. I outrace him with lots of burn and two flipped delvers.
Round 4: BW Tokens
Game 1: I counter his turn two raise the alarm and turn three spectral procession but he finds some lingering souls and an intangible virtue and my Gurmag Angler just couldn't race all of his tokens.
Game 2: He plays a turn two bitterblossom. I get to three mana and have a staticaster. He end of turns raise the alarm and then tries to play honor of the pure. I play my staticaster in response and make him very sad. He paths it after two turns of me annihilating bitterblossom tokens but I'm able to run over him with tasigur and a snapcaster.
Game 3: He gets an early bitterblossom and I counter everything else. My opponent draws four land in a row. Tasigur and Gurmag Angler finish him off.
Round 5: Affinity
Game 1: I draw just enough removal to stabilize at two. Kolaghan's command is an MVP and I cast it three times. He ends up with an ornithopter, a plating, a ravager, and a memnite and I don't have a flying blocker. He equips plating to thopter and swings in for the win. I electrolyze the thoper and he sacs it to ravager in response. He realizes what he's done right after and I barely eek out the win off of seven tasigur activations and some selective delving.
Game 2: Opponent keeps glimmer, opal, ornithopter x2, memnite, double galvanic blast. I kill his memnite and neuter his mana with multiple K. commands. Two Snapcasters swing through for victory.
Conclusions:
This was my first experience with a delver deck in modern and it was a lot of fun. Young Pyromancer is getting the axe. Probably for +1 Snapcaster +2 Terminate. There's a lot of affinity in my meta so I'm going to -1 Hurkyl's Recall -1 Spell pierce for +2Shatterstorms in the board. Spell Pierce was also fairly unimpressive. Not sure if I'm going to replace the copies in the main.
It's not working for me in my trade thread currently. I've added the tags [.spoiler][./spoiler] manually and through the feature during thread creation and it doesn't seem to work either way. Of course, it works here though.
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Grim Flayer
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique
Sorceries: 12
4 Serum Visions
1 Collective Brutality
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
Instants: 11
4 Fatal Push
2 Cryptic Command
2 Mana Leak
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Murderous Cut
3 Liliana of the Veil
Lands: 22
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
3 Darkslick Shores
1 Breeding Pool
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Watery Grave
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Island
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Lumbering Falls
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Dispel
1 Negate
1 Fog
1 Creeping Corrosion
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Nature's Claim
1 Damnation
3 Spreading Seas
1 Surgical Extraction
This is where I've started. I'm hoping to make the trek to FNM later this week with it. I haven't had a chance to do much but goldfish at this point. Any advice is appreciated.
As for my card choices:
No Tasigur, the Golden Fang?
Tasigur is insane. But I didn't want to play Thought Scour to fuel it or risk shutting off Delirium and making my Grim Flayers 2/2s.
No Ancestral Visions
It's a great card for grinding advantage but it's often a dead draw later in the game. Last time I played FNM my meta was pretty much just aggro. I'm just not a fan.
Vendilion Clique
Instant speed discard with 3 power? <3.
Four counterspells?!
I was trying to be proactive with Liliana of the Veil, Thoughtseize, Inquisition of Kozilek, and Collective Brutality to disrupt my opponent's plans. I probably need to find room for 2 Spell Snares and another Mana Leak.
Sideboard:
Fog or Darkness
A fun card against infect or all-in creature based strategies. It can buy you some turns and burn through some of their pump spells.
Scavenging Ooze
Graveyard Hate and Life gain in one shiny little beater.
Surgical Extraction
More graveyard hate!
Spreading Seas
Tron is tron. Don't get caught without someway to mitigate turn three Karn Liberated.
Dispel & Negate
Extra counterspells are always nice. I was shocked to find I don't own a single Countersquall.
Creeping Corrosion
For Affinity and Lantern control.
Damnation
Creature based strategies like Bant Eldrazi.
Engineered Explosives
Each Non-land permanent. I should probably just put it in the main deck. It's a catch-all answer at CMC 3 or less.
Nature's Claim
Did I mention Affinity and Lantern Control? What about Boggles? Or the random Worship that one five color guy plays at FNM.
Mindbreak Trap
Is Cheerios real? I don't know.
I like the look of this list but no Gavony Township?
I had a similar list with blue instead of white for gitaxian probe, serum visions, and stormchaser mage. It's a ton of fun to play until you come up against a deck with lightning bolt. I routinely shot myself for 10-14 every game just for prowess triggers and mana fixing.
I like Wheel a lot but I wonder how useful it actually will be in a match. You're siding in an enchantment to protect you from a combo in an enchantment based deck. Your opponent is going to bring in enchantment removal because your win condition is voltron.
It probably doesn't matter as then they're wasting resources on that instead of on the enchantments that let you get through for lethal. Just curious about that logic, though.
Legacy UR delver doesn't play visions because it's worse than preordain, ponder, or brainstorm. You also don't have the time to wait for it.
I'm not saying AV is right for this deck but I think it's way better than serum visions.
^
This times one thousand. Affinity is good but I don't think it's ban worthy. I've never had an issue beating it with any control or agro deck. I was something like 19-2 against the affinity in my meta when I was playing Grixis control but I guess main deck Kolaghan's Command is sort of unfair.
Banning the top deck in the meta rarely makes sense. It does for eldrazi and it did for blazingshoalmoth but didn't really strike me as needed for pod or twin. Those two archetypes weren't nearly as dominate or as fast as a "turn 3" format banning would really dictate. If effectively killing your opponent on turn 3 is too good then shouldn't Karn be banned as well? I don't think so personally but it can be frustrating to lose the die roll and have your second land drop exiled. Karn Liberated is clearly too good.[/sarcasm]
Available in my dreams.
I totally agree with your opinion. I also think they will be extremely viable in two color decks like bogles. Why shock myself when I can go basic, basic, tango land?
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Gurmag Angler
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
Instants: 24
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Terminate
4 Thought Scour
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 Cryptic Command
2 Dispel
2 Spell Snare
1 Remand
1 Mana Leak
1 Deprive
1 Electrolyze
4 Serum Visions
Lands: 22
4 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Flooded Strand
2 Steam Vents
1 Watery Grave
1 Blood Crypt
3 Island
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
2 Sulfur Falls
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Drowned Catacomb
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Shattering Spree
2 Rending Volley
2 Vampiric Link
1 Darkness
2 Vapor Snag
2 Izzet Staticaster
2 Molten Rain
1 Shatterstorm
1 Languish
I haven't picked up fulminator mages or anger of the gods yet. I may be able to get some from a friend in which case I'll take out the molten rains, a vapor snag, and an izzet staticaster for two of each.
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Young Pyromancer
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Gurmag Angler
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Sorceries: 7
4 Serum Visions
3 Gitaxian Probe
Instants: 20
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Thought Scour
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
2 Remand
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 Terminate
1 Vapor Snag
1 Electrolyze
1 Deprive
4 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Flooded Strand
2 Steam Vents
3 Island
1 Watery Grave
1 Blood Crypt
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
2 Drowned Catacomb
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Spell Pierce
2 Vapor snag
1 Darkness
2 Deathmark
2 Dispel
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Go For the Throat
2 Izzet Staticaster
2 Molten Rain
This is what I played at FNM tonight. Went 4-1 with a top 8 split. (Free Path!)
Round 1: Affinity
Game 1: I get slaughtered. I kept Delver, Tasigur, Young Pyro, Gitaxian Probe, and three land. I only draw lands and creatures.
-3 Young Pyro -1 Git prove + 1 Darkness +1 Hurkyl's +2 Staticaster
Game 2: I stabilize thanks to Terminate, a few bolts, and Kolaghan's command. Snapcaster is just gravy.
Game 3: I keep a removal heavy hand and land a turn two tasigur off of fetches + thought scour and it gets there.
Round 2: Grixis Twin
Game 1: I see all my burn and a few snapcasters but end up a few points short when he assembles the combo. No counters or terminates.
-3 Young Pyromancer -3 Gitaxian Probe +2 Dispel +1 spell pierce +2 Vapor Snag +1 Go for the Throat
Game 2: History repeats itself and I just can't kill him before he assembles the combo. No counters for me.
Round 3: Abzhan Coco
Game 1: I keep Delver x2 Gurmag Angler serum vision x2 land land. My opponent mulligans to four. I only see land and he manages to get the full combo on turn four.
-3 Young Pyromancer -1 Gitaxian Probe -1 Serum visions +1 Relic of Prog +1 Go for the throat +2 Deathmark
Game 2: I kill every creature he plays and kill him with snapcasters and burn.
Game 3: My opponent manages to resolve two cocos and only hits Anafenza off the first and one kitchen finks off the second. I outrace him with lots of burn and two flipped delvers.
Round 4: BW Tokens
Game 1: I counter his turn two raise the alarm and turn three spectral procession but he finds some lingering souls and an intangible virtue and my Gurmag Angler just couldn't race all of his tokens.
-3 Young Pyromancer (seeing a pattern yet?) -1 Gitaxian probe -1 Serum Visions +2 Izzet Staticaster +1 Spell Pierce +2 Vapor Snag
Game 2: He plays a turn two bitterblossom. I get to three mana and have a staticaster. He end of turns raise the alarm and then tries to play honor of the pure. I play my staticaster in response and make him very sad. He paths it after two turns of me annihilating bitterblossom tokens but I'm able to run over him with tasigur and a snapcaster.
Game 3: He gets an early bitterblossom and I counter everything else. My opponent draws four land in a row. Tasigur and Gurmag Angler finish him off.
Round 5: Affinity
Game 1: I draw just enough removal to stabilize at two. Kolaghan's command is an MVP and I cast it three times. He ends up with an ornithopter, a plating, a ravager, and a memnite and I don't have a flying blocker. He equips plating to thopter and swings in for the win. I electrolyze the thoper and he sacs it to ravager in response. He realizes what he's done right after and I barely eek out the win off of seven tasigur activations and some selective delving.
-3 Young Pyromancer -1 Gitaxian Probe +1 Hurkyl's +1 Darkness +2 Vapor Snag
Game 2: Opponent keeps glimmer, opal, ornithopter x2, memnite, double galvanic blast. I kill his memnite and neuter his mana with multiple K. commands. Two Snapcasters swing through for victory.
Conclusions:
This was my first experience with a delver deck in modern and it was a lot of fun. Young Pyromancer is getting the axe. Probably for +1 Snapcaster +2 Terminate. There's a lot of affinity in my meta so I'm going to -1 Hurkyl's Recall -1 Spell pierce for +2Shatterstorms in the board. Spell Pierce was also fairly unimpressive. Not sure if I'm going to replace the copies in the main.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/trading-post/details/2575-i-want-modern-affinity-help-me-out
A1:
Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker (Russian Foil M13)
B1:
Cavern of Souls
and
A2:
Nissa, Vastwood Seer (Prerelease foil)
B2:
Jace, Vryn's Prodigy (Prerelease foil)
Path to Exile (FNM foil)
$10