Some of my takes on this thought experiment I raised:
Generally speaking, games would be longer on average and there would be much more variation in each game. Midrange and aggro decks would become more viable. Game winning infinite combos wouldn't go away but they would happen substantially less frequently.
Decks that rely on infinite combos would become much weaker. Combo decks would still exist but they would have to rely on multiple combos instead of just one or two and they would need traditional alternate win conditions. They would probably rely heavily on mass draw spells like Stroke of Genius and Pull from Tomorrow to ensure they can increase the odds of finding relevant pieces.
Combo decks would turn into value based synergy decks like Brago, King Eternal.
Fringe strategies like mill could become more viable as games would be more likely to last longer due to lack of consistency.
The format would likely have more variation and deck diversity in competitive circles. Even if there was less deck diversity, the way games play out would involve substantially more variation.
Thought Experiment: How would the Commander format be different if tutors were banned?
Note: For the sake of the discussion, assume all cards that tutor with the exception of cards that only search for basic land type cards would be banned. That means Rampant Growth and Polluted Delta are safe but everything else from Crop Rotation to Bribery to Demonic Tutor to Captain Sisay would be banned.
The people that view Sea of Clouds and Tundra as identical have probably never even had the chance to play a game with that kind of efficient mana (ie fetch into ABU dual). Whenever I am helping a newer player improve their deck, they are always skeptical of shocks and fetches until they play them for a few games. The battlebond cycle would have been fantastic in commander if they had land types. As is, they're decent, but limited in what can pull them out of library.
The argument of "you don't need dual lands" basically seems to boil down to people just not having the chance to play said cards to understand why legacy decks run them. Ignorance due to lack of availability is hardly a reason to point towards when looking to deny any further availability.
They literally could have solved the dual land problem in commander by making the battlebond land cycle typed, but they still avoid typing non basics as often as possible for fear they create a land to replace ABU's. We'll definitely never see anything in standard better than or equivocal to shocks because of the fragile balance that is modern.
A couple things here:
What I think you are missing is many players don't care if there decks are super optimized and don't like super optimized efficient play because it's too fast and consistent. Hell, most players don't goldfish their decks on TappedOut or MTG Salvation. There are tons of Magic players that like the game but aren't on MTGS or reddit and in the know of the community. There are tons of players that don't play at LGS's and only play with their friends. You can call it ignorance, although I think that's a bit pretentious, but regardless of the reason, players like you that are eager to play with reprinted cards on the reserved list are in a small minority of players.
If they made the battlebond basically lands typed, they would literally function as original duals in Commander which is too powerful for cards Wizards wants to print today. It isn't even necessary because there are plenty of dual lands in the format so you don't need another dual land that has to be perfect.
I'm amazed that people here really don't understand that there are thousands of players that see Sea of Clouds and Tundra as virtually identical because they don't care about (or even know about) basic land types on nonbasic lands.
Again, in Commander, you don't need the duals to build viable decks. You would want them if you were creating a highly tuned tier 1 competitive commander deck, but that's something less than 1% of Commander players do. Most Commander players don't even play with fetch lands, they certainly aren't passionate about playing with original duals. There are dozens of dual lands, sure they aren't as efficient as the original duals but the significant majority of Magic players don't care about that.
If you aren't playing competitively and for optimization, you aren't going to be super passionate and excited about an old dual land reprint, there are dozens of dual lands and you don't need Tundra to play a viable Commander deck.
Well, i actually agree with Honor Basquiat here. While i have a big legacy card pool, including all duals and fetches, none on my commander decks have any (although most are 3 colors). there are just enough other options.
2 Decks have daemonic tutors (because i only have 2) and the others do well enough with diabolic tutors. My gahve-deck still has no doubling season, and does good with primal vigor.
IF people what to play cutting edge competetive, why do they have to do it in a casual format?
Commander is seldom sanctioned anyway, so why is the reserved list a thing for this? Just proxy the cards, if your envirement really demands this. Otherwise, find other options. You dont have to blindly copy a decklist, you can build your own decks.
For commander, its mostly "but i want them" from many players.
Legacy and vintage is different, because they are competetive formats with sanctioned events.
Exactly.
Here is a breakdown of the Reserved List:
1. Most of the cards on the reserved list are terrible uninteresting cards, many not even worthy of being draft chaff. These are cards on the reserved list that would upset many players if they were reprinted just because they are so bad and players would be upset Wizards didn't reprint something else instead. These are cards like Thelonite Monk, Keeper of Tresserhorn, Fungus Elemental and Spirit Shield.
2. There is a subsection of cards on the reserved list that are stupidly overpowered and broken that 99% of players wouldn't want to play with them because they wouldn't be legal in Standard, Modern or and kitchen table Commander players think they are unfun. A significant portion of players that already own these cards would be frustrated if they were reprinted because Wizards explicitly promised they wouldn't be reprinted and it is likely these collectibles would significantly drop in value if they were reprinted. These are cards like Time Walk, Black Lotus, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Humility, Invoke Prejudice and Moat.
3. Then there is a subsection of cards that are Legacy and/or Vintage staples that are also broken but don't feel special or excite the vast majority of Magic players. A significant portion of players that already own these cards would be frustrated if they were reprinted because Wizards explicitly promised they wouldn't be reprinted and it is likely these collectibles would significantly drop in value if they were reprinted. These are the dual lands like Underground Sea and Savannah. Note: Most Commander players don't need or want these cards, most Commander players consider cards like Command Tower and Sea of Clouds to be viable substitutions.
4. There are some interesting and unique cards that don't fit in any of the above categories. They are powerful cards but they are fair. These are the cards that would excite the largest number of players if they were reprinted but they aren't especially expensive money wise because Legacy and Vintage players don't care about them. These are cards like Sliver Queen, Replenish, Eladamri, Lord of Leaves, Karn, Silver Golem and Lotus Vale.
When you evaluate the cards on the Reserved List it's pretty clear that reprinting 1 and 2 is would bring the least amount of pleasure to the overall player base. Reprinting 3 would make a very small minority of players incredibly happy but it wouldn't be especially exciting to most players and it would frustrate a lot of collectors and older players. Reprinting 4 would likely bring the greatest amount of pleasure to the overall player base. There are no other cards that are viable substitutes to what these cards do and some casual players would be excited (although not especially excited).
If you believe Wizards is acting selfishly or outside of the interest of players, it's actually the contrary. If Wizards wants to make Legacy have a lower barrier to entry they could ban cards from the reserved list, or maybe just the dual lands. This would upset many established Legacy players and the dual lands would likely decrease in value but they wouldn't be breaking their promise. However it wouldn't surprise me that even if Wizards did this, the few players that are actually interested in playing Legacy now that it would be more affordable would complain about the decision.
I believe the majority of people that are in favor of abolishing the reserved list are putting their own personal interests and desires ahead of the majority of the Magic community and collectors.
The claims that the dual lands aren't "necessary' is sophistry, plain and simple. You're playing word games. How about this, take your Commander deck, the one you've worked so hard to put together, and replace every card you can with one that's ALMOST as good. Replace your fetchlands with Evolving Wilds, replace Lightning Bolt with Lightning Strike, you don't NEED a Sol Ring, you can play just fine with Sisay's Ring, right?
If you don't care at all about winning or improving your game, you don't need the very best cards ever printed is what you're saying. The fact is, though, that the kind of people who actually join a Magic website and post here? We're interested in several things. Improving our game, improving our play, winning, designing new strategies... But nobody here believes they can't improve their experience somehow. In Commander, you can get a noticeable improvement in how your deck performs, for only several thousand dollars!
How am I playing word games? The vast majority of Magic players don't care about having a dual land that always comes in untapped and is fetchable. There are tons of Magic players that play Standard and Modern, so they have no desire for original duals. Hardly anyone plays Legacy or Vintage which are the only two formats that really need the duals.
In Commander, you don't need the duals to build viable decks. You would want them if you were creating a highly tuned tier 1 competitive commander deck, but that's something less than 1% of Commander players do. Most Commander players don't even play with fetch lands, they certainly aren't passionate about playing with original duals. There are dozens of dual lands, sure they aren't as efficient as the original duals but the significant majority of Magic players don't care about that.
I'm saying an incredibly small percentage of Magic players care enough about improving their game where they believe there decks aren't efficient unless they have dual lands.
Reprinting cards on the reserved list breaks a promise that was made to players. This will frustrate and disappoint players for the sake of helping two of the least popular formats in Magic and an absurdly small minority of the overall Magic population that wants to play with cards like original duals, and an even smaller number of people that want to play with stupid broken cards like Time Walk.
What you either don't understand or you refuse to acknowledge is that very few players play Magic in a competitive fashion with hyper efficiency and optimization. For this reason, most players don't care about having cards like Underground Sea and Time Walk reprinted. Reprinting cards on the reserved list not only breaks a promise that was made to customers, but it doesn't even excite a majority of players. Wizards chooses to instead reprint cards that aren't on the reserved list or print new cards. This makes more players happy and they don't have to break any promises.
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I think JovianHomarid makes some respectable points, but prices of Modern decks have gone up since 2014 and the format is still growing. At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter why Legacy and Vintage are dying/dead. Do you really think that if they reprinted dual lands, suddenly Legacy would eclipse Modern? Or how about this, suppose Wizards banned the reserved list cards from the Legacy format? Would that suddenly make Legacy a super popular format? I believe the answer to both of these questions is no, but at least with the latter move, Wizards doesn't violate a promise they made.
I also agree with your point about some players seeing the reserved list as an incentive for players to spend a lot of money on cardboard knowing that their cards won't decrease in value.
I also absolutely believe that Vintage, even if it were affordable would be incredibly boring to players because the games are too fast.
I think you're completely missing the point. Yes, you can build budget. Does that mean you can viably play competitively? No. If I were to play Legacy with shocks in the decks I want to play that require them, I'd be completely outclassed.
Sure, I can build Oops, All Spells! or Death & Taxes. And, in fact, I have. But I enjoy a diverse play experience, and seeing this:
is not conducive to helping me enjoy a game that I've come to love over the years.
Commander isn't comparable, because even in Duel Commander, it's not a sanctioned event, there's less consistency in the decks, etc.; and you can have strong Commander decks without duals. (I say that as probably one of the Spike-iest Commander players at my LGS.) Modern has some expensive staples, sure - but guess what can get reprinted? (Hint: It's Modern staples. Guess what can't get reprinted due to the RL?)
Anyway, why are you talking about Modern? I literally just told you that I don't enjoy the format - and you're telling me about its merits? You clearly don't understand, so why are you arguing here if you don't have a horse in this race?
I don't think I'm missing the point. My primary point is that the people that actually want to play with Time Walk and want to get into Legacy and Vintage now are such a small subsection of the Magic play group that there are plenty of other things Wizards can do for the game that will make more players happy and be less controversial than reprinting cards on the reserved list.
The reason I brought up Modern isn't because I assumed you like it, I brought it up to stress that the reason Legacy isn't popular isn't because decks cost a lot of money to build. Modern has some expensive staples that can be reprinted, but many of them aren't being reprinted, and people still play the format with those expensive cards.
Yes you would be completely outclassed if you tried to play certain decks in Legacy without shock lands. That's the way it is. You can play another Legacy deck that's cheaper or play another format, or buy the cards, or play a different game. The vast majority of players don't want to play Legacy and Vintage. The vast majority of players are fine with cards like Darkslick Shores and Watery Grave. They could care less if Underground Sea was reprinted and then there's another set of players who don't want Underground Sea to be reprinted because Wizards explicitly told them multiple times that it wouldn't be reprinted.
The reason I'm arguing is because I want people that are advocating for the ending of the reserved list to understand how small of a minority they are in relation to other players. 99% of players don't care that less than 2% of Magic cards (and most of that 2% are really crappy cards) won't ever be reprinted. In fact many players would complain if most of the cards on the reserve list were reprinted because they are so crappy. Virtually no one plays formats where Time Walk is legal, and kitchen table casual players don't want to play with cards that broken and stupid.
Yes dual lands are the best lands, but that doesn't really matter. There are plenty of other lands that are considered to be good or even excellent by the vast majority of players. Dual lands are not important to 99% of people that play Magic and they certainly aren't necessary to play Magic the way the vast majority of players play Magic. People that are genuinely seriously interested in play Legacy and Vintage are an incredibly small percentage of the player base.
And once again, no it's not solely because of the price of the format. As I said previously, three or four years ago when the original dual lands were substantially less expensive than they are now and some Legacy decks had the value of what many Modern decks have today, Legacy still wasn't not a widely popular format. The format was still dying. Modern is a very successful and vibrant format and it's probably more expensive than it's ever been. Modern Jeskai costs about $1400 to build. Modern Jund costs more than $2000 to build. Players still play the format. 1v1 Commander is more popular than its ever been as a competitive format and those decks are even more expensive. Competitive four color control decks in 1v1 commander cost over $3000 to build.
One could actually make an argument that it would be selfish and short sighted for Wizards reprint cards on the reserved list. It would be violating a promise that was made to older and seasoned customers to appease a very small amount of players that actually want to play with the cards even though there are tens of thousands of other cards they can access that can also be reprinted along with other formats. 98% of cards in the game are eligible to be reprinted. 98%! Is it really such a bad thing that there is a very small subsection of cards that players can collect without worrying about their cards becoming less rare?
I certainly will acknowledge it is kind of rough for players that want to play Legacy competitively now and don't have any Legacy staples (although I could say the same thing about Modern), but players that have a strong desire to play Legacy are such a small part of the player base. I think a better solution would be to ban reserved list cards in Legacy, but I'm sure players interested in getting into the format would just end up complaining about that.
If players really want to get into Legacy so badly, they should either invest in the cards, knowing they will only go up in value or play a budget deck (yes, there are viable Legacy decks that don't cost $5000 to build).
I'm sorry some of you guys missed the boat on Legacy and Vintage. I guess it kind of sucks but you aren't being punished and Wizards doesn't have an obligation to help players enter dying unpopular formats. Besides there are plenty of other ways to play Magic that don't involve Wizards reprinting cards the majority of the player base don't enjoy playing with and that don't involve explicitly breaking a promise.
Cards like Tabernacle are such an outlier in formats like Commander it's hardly worth mentioning. The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale isn't even played in 1/10th of 1% of Commander decks.
People like Honor Basquiat are borderline disingenuous when he/she doesn't understand why people are against the RL and calling them contrarian. Instead of just trying understand the reason of some of the arguments, he/she warps and downplay it so badly and ignore the complete fair ones.
The argument of just 600 cards being in it and people being obsessed over it would be fine if Legacy was not a real competitive format and some of the cards in the reserve list are essential with no proper substitute. Saying dual lands aren't essential is laughable at best, dishonest even. Imagine if these cards weren't in reserve list? Legacy could be more widespread. Even that absurd argument about P9, he or she ignores that Vintage is also a super fun format that anyone who could have any access to it with real cards would jump to it in a heartbeat.
Also reprints don't mean reprint it to death and introduce them to formats where they don't belong, just like any reprint ever done. It's really nerving the way that poster ignores reality. P9 if it was ever reprinted in some alternate reality could be introduced as prizes for PT/worlds, so not many copies would be in the wild per year. Legacy reprints could be done in a similar fashion to Eternal masters.
Also, I dislike people saying that most of RL are garbage anyway as argument. Casuals would love to be able to play some of that "garbage". They are unique and deserve to be played as well. With the buyouts, not even hot garbage like Ramirez del Pietro will be at normal reach for casuals eventually. I imagine some people would like to play with it for laughs, but without paying overpriced premium for it.
Bottom line the real argument is should this be a game first or a collectible first. Can a balance be struck? I'm a collector first and I'd be ok with the RL gone. It served its purpose, it doesn't serve its original purpose now because buyouts just warp the market in an insidious way.
I understand the reason and history of the RL. Some cards like P9 should stay as a relic of the past and become antique items basically. However, some cards have no reason to be there (like retroactively adding cards from "newer" sets like Urza block). Intelligently done reprints don't hurt the value of collections.
The RL isn't a monolithic thing. It was revised a couple times. Sadly it become unnecessarily strict. I think at least the functional reprint rule could be easily abolished. It could piss off some powerful collectors, but eventually I think they would accept it as not that harmful to their "investment". Lot of cards are super valuable not because they are playable or are in the RL per se. Just look at Alpha/Beta reprints.
Letting functional reprints to be made could also make people stop bugging about the RL.
Alternatively, just banning most of the playable RL cards from Legacy or even Commander would be also a "solution", but a bad and distasteful one as well.
Sadly, our opinions matter too little in this matter. Even if 99% of the playerbase were in unison against the RL and were actively voicing it would not cause much change to it. People/organizations with real influence over WotC are the ones who pull the string and they favor status quo for RL matter. I don't see much shake up in this matter anytime ever.
First and foremost I never meant to intend that anyone opposed to the reserved list is being contrarian. My primary argument is that unless you seriously are interested in playing Vintage or Legacy, the fate of the reserve list is hardly relevant and there are way more people that complain about the reserved list than people that already play or are seriously interested in playing Legacy or Vintage.
Cost is not the only reason people aren't interested in playing Legacy and Vintage. Three or four years ago when the original dual lands were substantially less expensive than they are now and some Legacy decks had the value of what many Modern decks have today, Legacy still wasn't not a widely popular format. The format was still dying. Modern is a very successful and vibrant format and it's probably more expensive than it's ever been. Modern Jeskai costs about $1400 to build. Modern Jund costs more than $2000 to build. Players still play the format. 1v1 Commander is more popular than its ever been as a competitive format and those decks are even more expensive. Competitive 4 color control decks in 1v1 commander cost over $3000 to build.
Additionally, I believe you took my comments on dual lands out of context or perhaps I wasn't being clear. My point is that dual lands aren't essential unless you are playing at competitively in a format like Vintage or Legacy (formats a very very small percentage of Magic players play) or you are in an elite rare group of incredibly highly competitive Commander players.
I really think it is fascinating that people genuinely believe that there is a significant section of the Magic player base that would love to play Vintage if only they could afford to do so. The vast majority of players don't want to play a format where games end in two or three turns. The vast majority of players have no desire to play against broken cards like Time Walk. Not to mention there is a subsection of players that Wizards explicitly promised that they would never print Time Walk again.
You say Magic should be a game first and a collectible second. I agree and I think Wizards agrees. That's why 98% of cards are eligible for reprint and in the past 3 years, Wizards has been reprinting more often and more aggressively than in the history of the game.
For what it's worth, I'm not opposed to making exceptions to the reserved list, but I don't think it's a big deal. The fate of the reserved list will impact a very small section of players that don't already own cards on the reserved list. For the incredibly tiny minority of players that are seriously interested in playing Vintage, proxy cards or invest in them knowing that they will retain their value and continue to increase because of the reserved list.
I am still in the process of reading the thread, but my general assessment is that people who are against the reserved list are likely against primarily for the sake of being contrarian.
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This is a genuine question I am asking in good faith. Why are so many players obsessed over the fact that the reserved list isn't being abolished?
There are about 600 cards on the Reserved List and over 20,000 unique cards that have been printed.
That means less than 3% of Magic cards are on the reserved list. Out of that 3%, many of the cards are really crappy cards like Thelonite Monk, Keeper of Tresserhorn, Fungus Elemental and Spirit Shield. Some of these are cards that are so bad, many players would actually complain if Wizards reprinted those cards.
Yes, it would be nice if I could get an Underground Sea for my Commander deck without having to spend $530.00, but does it prevent me from building a viable Commander deck? Of course not. Are most commander players going to lose a game because they aren't running Breeding Pool instead of Tropical Island? Of course not.
The thousands of players on Reddit and Blogatog complaining about the reserved list surely can't all be Legacy and Vintage players. The amount of Legacy and Vintage players is so small in relation to other Magic players.
What decks are you just dying to build with broken cards like Black Lotus? Kitchen table decks? Why not just proxy them? Maybe it's that players are upset cards that are obviously broken like Treachery, Time Walk and Ancestral Recall won't be reprinted.
Those cards surely wouldn't be legal in formats like Standard or Modern if they were reprinted. Many of the powerful cards on the reserved list are already banned in Commander. I can't seriously believe that all the players that complain about the reserve list are Legacy/Vintage players or players that genuinely want to spend time delving into Legacy and Vintage. I believe that's the case because I have encountered several players at LGS's that complain about the reserve list and have no desire or intention of playing Legacy or Vintage. I honestly believe a lot of players just like to complain because out of the formats and the ways the vast majority of players play Magic the Gathering, one can easily build decks without relying on cards from the reserved list.
So what is it about the reserved list that drives you mad? What am I missing? What specifically do you want reprinted on the reserved list and why?
Note: I'm not a proponent or supporter of the reserved list but I don't think my life as a avid Magic enthusiast would be significantly impacted for better or for worse if the reserve list were abolished or maintained. There are numerous cards that aren't on the reserve list that I would prefer to be reprinted over cards that are on the reserved list. For what it's worth, I am a casual/semi-competitive Commander and Modern player that drafts sometimes.
People want to play other formats, Vinatge (and legacy) have a reputation of being the "most fun" formats to ever exsist, However to play said formats you need to shell out afew grand. Your right in that most of the reserve list is trash that wouldn't even get get a 11th pick in a draft, however the few are NOT trash are the best of the best at what they do. Some so good at what they do even the watered down version are amazing T1 playable in the formats they are legal in (looking at you mox). The other draw of these formats is "they are unchanging" once you got your deck your good for life, no one is going to compain if you play your Stax deck you bought 10 years ago in a tournment today. Some new enteries shake up the format now and again but ultimately MOST decks teirs are less about power and more about popularity of OTHERS decks then the power of any given deck in question. It stright up comes down to people think the price point is too high. They WANT that stability and reliability and high power level but feel that the price of a used car is too much for it. This is made worse by Wizards explicitly NOT wanting people to play eternal formats, it goes against their final interests. This leads to a situation where people want to play the fun high power stable anything goes wild west format while at the same time wizards is actively starving that format since THEY absurdly do NOT want people playing it. The reserve list is wizards weapon to kill the older formats becuase olderformats are trying to kill wizards revenue streems. Once you play an older foramt you (on average) STOP playing standard (the cash cow) and limit playing other formats (you can only play so much).
You say that you hear people compain about it but have 0 desire to go in to legacy or vintage, I challange that assessment, Offer these people a FREE T1 combo Legacy deck with the only condition being a) you can't sell it and b) you must play at least 1 game a week with it. I bet every single one of said people would take the deck. Cost is what drive them to never play not lack of desire TO play.
I disagree here. I think vast majority of Magic the Gathering players would say that cards like The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale and Invoke Prejudice are broken and unfun to play against. There are way more players that want Wizards to reprint Demonic Tutor or Snapcaster Mage than Time Walk or Ancestral Recall. I think a very small minority of players want to play a format as fast as Vintage or as skill intensive as Legacy. Even before dual lands were worth an arm and a leg the format was already dying in favor of other formats because people prefer to play Magic other ways.
Personally, if the dual lands were reprinted, I'd play with them, because while they are powerful, they aren't inherently broken or unfun to play against, but I certainly don't need to play with them. I once spent $150 on a judge promo Intuition for Commander because there are no other cards in the format that do anything like that card. I wouldn't spend anywhere near that on Badlands when I can play Blood Crypt and other RB lands that do practically the same thing. Unless you are playing at an incredibly competitive level, you don't need Underground Sea, and if you really are so die hard and serious, trade or buy into the cards knowing they will retain their value because they are on the reserved list rather than complaining that Wizards won't break a promise that would piss off a lot of players and help a small fraction of players. Yes, Legacy is expensive, but if someone really wants enter the format, there are some Legacy decks that can be played on a budget that rivals competitive Modern decks.
As far as Wizards wanting people not to play Eternal formats, I don't believe that. Commander is an eternal format. Commander is a format which allow cards from all Magic: The Gathering sets with the standard card back and non-silver-bordered card frames. It is also a format where the vast majority of heavily played cards aren't printed in Standard expansions (Out of the top played 100 cards in the format, only two of them are legal in Standard right now) yet Wizards is constantly promoting and supporting the format and is even introducing new cards in Standard expansions intended for this Eternal format because a ton of players enjoy playing it.
The biggest reason people are against the RL? Without a doubt, it's the original dual lands. They're far and away the most useful and versatile cards that most people will never be able to play with. Will you LOSE a game of Commander if you play Breeding Pool instead of [c]Tropical Island[/c} Maybe, maybe not, but it increases your odds a bit. I have 4-color Atraxa deck, and being able to include 6 shocklands, 6 original duals, and fetchlands means that that deck is FAR more consistent than if I only had the shocks/fetches.
The RL is 905 garbage, cards that nobody cares about at all. The remaining 10%, though are cards that are literally irreplacable. They're unique in what they do or how they do it. Sure, you can play Magus of the Tabernacle, but it's in almost every way worse than The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale. You CAN play a worse alternative in almost every case, but it's a worse alternative. That's not being contrary, it's wanting to play the game.
The dual lands are good, but absolutely not essential except for in very competitive circles of play. There are dozens of dual lands including many that enter untapped. Only for a small fraction of the most competitive players want them to significantly improve their decks.
You say it's not being contrary, but I think it is. Even though there are tens of thousands of unique cards, because a very small fraction of them aren't being reprinted, people are complaining about it even though the majority of players don't actually want those cards to be reprinted. This is especially true about the jank cards or the incredibly OP cards that almost no one wants to play against (i.e. Time Walk) Not to mention there is a sub section of players that DON'T want those cards reprinted and Wizards explicitly promised them they wouldn't reprint those cards.
If money wasn't a factor, would you rather play with a deck that has all premium (foil/holographic) cards or with a deck that has no premium (non-foil/non-holographic) cards? Explain your answer.
Note: Assume that the card stock quality including the premium card stock is comparable to the Dominaria card stock.
I am still in the process of reading the thread, but my general assessment is that people who are against the reserved list are likely against primarily for the sake of being contrarian.
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This is a genuine question I am asking in good faith. Why are so many players obsessed over the fact that the reserved list isn't being abolished?
There are about 600 cards on the Reserved List and over 20,000 unique cards that have been printed.
That means less than 3% of Magic cards are on the reserved list. Out of that 3%, many of the cards are really crappy cards like Thelonite Monk, Keeper of Tresserhorn, Fungus Elemental and Spirit Shield. Some of these are cards that are so bad, many players would actually complain if Wizards reprinted those cards.
Yes, it would be nice if I could get an Underground Sea for my Commander deck without having to spend $530.00, but does it prevent me from building a viable Commander deck? Of course not. Are most commander players going to lose a game because they aren't running Breeding Pool instead of Tropical Island? Of course not.
The thousands of players on Reddit and Blogatog complaining about the reserved list surely can't all be Legacy and Vintage players. The amount of Legacy and Vintage players is so small in relation to other Magic players.
What decks are you just dying to build with broken cards like Black Lotus? Kitchen table decks? Why not just proxy them? Maybe it's that players are upset cards that are obviously broken like Treachery, Time Walk and Ancestral Recall won't be reprinted.
Those cards surely wouldn't be legal in formats like Standard or Modern if they were reprinted. Many of the powerful cards on the reserved list are already banned in Commander. I can't seriously believe that all the players that complain about the reserve list are Legacy/Vintage players or players that genuinely want to spend time delving into Legacy and Vintage. I believe that's the case because I have encountered several players at LGS's that complain about the reserve list and have no desire or intention of playing Legacy or Vintage. I honestly believe a lot of players just like to complain because out of the formats and the ways the vast majority of players play Magic the Gathering, one can easily build decks without relying on cards from the reserved list.
So what is it about the reserved list that drives you mad? What am I missing? What specifically do you want reprinted on the reserved list and why?
Note: I'm not a proponent or supporter of the reserved list but I don't think my life as a avid Magic enthusiast would be significantly impacted for better or for worse if the reserve list were abolished or maintained. There are numerous cards that aren't on the reserve list that I would prefer to be reprinted over cards that are on the reserved list. For what it's worth, I am a casual/semi-competitive Commander and Modern player that drafts sometimes.
Generally speaking, games would be longer on average and there would be much more variation in each game. Midrange and aggro decks would become more viable. Game winning infinite combos wouldn't go away but they would happen substantially less frequently.
Decks that rely on infinite combos would become much weaker. Combo decks would still exist but they would have to rely on multiple combos instead of just one or two and they would need traditional alternate win conditions. They would probably rely heavily on mass draw spells like Stroke of Genius and Pull from Tomorrow to ensure they can increase the odds of finding relevant pieces.
Combo decks would turn into value based synergy decks like Brago, King Eternal.
Oloro, Ageless Ascetic decks would still have Exquisite Bond and Sanguine Bond in their decks but they would have to rely on more alternate win conditions in case they can't assemble the combo (i.e. beaters like Divinity of Pride).
Voltron strategies, especially those led by commanders with hexproof would become more popular in competitive circles (i.e. Sigarda, Host of Herons, Uril, the Miststalker)
Fringe strategies like mill could become more viable as games would be more likely to last longer due to lack of consistency.
The format would likely have more variation and deck diversity in competitive circles. Even if there was less deck diversity, the way games play out would involve substantially more variation.
Note: For the sake of the discussion, assume all cards that tutor with the exception of cards that only search for basic land type cards would be banned. That means Rampant Growth and Polluted Delta are safe but everything else from Crop Rotation to Bribery to Demonic Tutor to Captain Sisay would be banned.
In this thought experiment, assume the tutor ban would also prohibit makeshift tutors like Buried Alive, Intuition, Elvish Habinger and Long-Term Plans.
2. Which decks and general strategies would become more competitive if tutors were banned?
3. What cards would be expected to see more play or rise in value if tutors were banned?
4. Overall what would be different about the format?
A couple things here:
What I think you are missing is many players don't care if there decks are super optimized and don't like super optimized efficient play because it's too fast and consistent. Hell, most players don't goldfish their decks on TappedOut or MTG Salvation. There are tons of Magic players that like the game but aren't on MTGS or reddit and in the know of the community. There are tons of players that don't play at LGS's and only play with their friends. You can call it ignorance, although I think that's a bit pretentious, but regardless of the reason, players like you that are eager to play with reprinted cards on the reserved list are in a small minority of players.
If they made the battlebond basically lands typed, they would literally function as original duals in Commander which is too powerful for cards Wizards wants to print today. It isn't even necessary because there are plenty of dual lands in the format so you don't need another dual land that has to be perfect.
Again, in Commander, you don't need the duals to build viable decks. You would want them if you were creating a highly tuned tier 1 competitive commander deck, but that's something less than 1% of Commander players do. Most Commander players don't even play with fetch lands, they certainly aren't passionate about playing with original duals. There are dozens of dual lands, sure they aren't as efficient as the original duals but the significant majority of Magic players don't care about that.
If you aren't playing competitively and for optimization, you aren't going to be super passionate and excited about an old dual land reprint, there are dozens of dual lands and you don't need Tundra to play a viable Commander deck.
Exactly.
Here is a breakdown of the Reserved List:
2. There is a subsection of cards on the reserved list that are stupidly overpowered and broken that 99% of players wouldn't want to play with them because they wouldn't be legal in Standard, Modern or and kitchen table Commander players think they are unfun. A significant portion of players that already own these cards would be frustrated if they were reprinted because Wizards explicitly promised they wouldn't be reprinted and it is likely these collectibles would significantly drop in value if they were reprinted. These are cards like Time Walk, Black Lotus, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Humility, Invoke Prejudice and Moat.
3. Then there is a subsection of cards that are Legacy and/or Vintage staples that are also broken but don't feel special or excite the vast majority of Magic players. A significant portion of players that already own these cards would be frustrated if they were reprinted because Wizards explicitly promised they wouldn't be reprinted and it is likely these collectibles would significantly drop in value if they were reprinted. These are the dual lands like Underground Sea and Savannah.
Note: Most Commander players don't need or want these cards, most Commander players consider cards like Command Tower and Sea of Clouds to be viable substitutions.
4. There are some interesting and unique cards that don't fit in any of the above categories. They are powerful cards but they are fair. These are the cards that would excite the largest number of players if they were reprinted but they aren't especially expensive money wise because Legacy and Vintage players don't care about them. These are cards like Sliver Queen, Replenish, Eladamri, Lord of Leaves, Karn, Silver Golem and Lotus Vale.
If you believe Wizards is acting selfishly or outside of the interest of players, it's actually the contrary. If Wizards wants to make Legacy have a lower barrier to entry they could ban cards from the reserved list, or maybe just the dual lands. This would upset many established Legacy players and the dual lands would likely decrease in value but they wouldn't be breaking their promise. However it wouldn't surprise me that even if Wizards did this, the few players that are actually interested in playing Legacy now that it would be more affordable would complain about the decision.
I believe the majority of people that are in favor of abolishing the reserved list are putting their own personal interests and desires ahead of the majority of the Magic community and collectors.
How am I playing word games? The vast majority of Magic players don't care about having a dual land that always comes in untapped and is fetchable. There are tons of Magic players that play Standard and Modern, so they have no desire for original duals. Hardly anyone plays Legacy or Vintage which are the only two formats that really need the duals.
In Commander, you don't need the duals to build viable decks. You would want them if you were creating a highly tuned tier 1 competitive commander deck, but that's something less than 1% of Commander players do. Most Commander players don't even play with fetch lands, they certainly aren't passionate about playing with original duals. There are dozens of dual lands, sure they aren't as efficient as the original duals but the significant majority of Magic players don't care about that.
I'm saying an incredibly small percentage of Magic players care enough about improving their game where they believe there decks aren't efficient unless they have dual lands.
Reprinting cards on the reserved list breaks a promise that was made to players. This will frustrate and disappoint players for the sake of helping two of the least popular formats in Magic and an absurdly small minority of the overall Magic population that wants to play with cards like original duals, and an even smaller number of people that want to play with stupid broken cards like Time Walk.
You sarcastically propose playing Evolving Wilds over Polluted Delta, but the reality is way more Commander players use Evolving Wilds than any other fetch land in Commander. A significant majority of players use cards like Darksteel Ingot. There are tons of players that think infinite combos are boring and think many cards are too powerful and unfun.
What you either don't understand or you refuse to acknowledge is that very few players play Magic in a competitive fashion with hyper efficiency and optimization. For this reason, most players don't care about having cards like Underground Sea and Time Walk reprinted. Reprinting cards on the reserved list not only breaks a promise that was made to customers, but it doesn't even excite a majority of players. Wizards chooses to instead reprint cards that aren't on the reserved list or print new cards. This makes more players happy and they don't have to break any promises.
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I think JovianHomarid makes some respectable points, but prices of Modern decks have gone up since 2014 and the format is still growing. At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter why Legacy and Vintage are dying/dead. Do you really think that if they reprinted dual lands, suddenly Legacy would eclipse Modern? Or how about this, suppose Wizards banned the reserved list cards from the Legacy format? Would that suddenly make Legacy a super popular format? I believe the answer to both of these questions is no, but at least with the latter move, Wizards doesn't violate a promise they made.
I also agree with your point about some players seeing the reserved list as an incentive for players to spend a lot of money on cardboard knowing that their cards won't decrease in value.
I also absolutely believe that Vintage, even if it were affordable would be incredibly boring to players because the games are too fast.
I don't think I'm missing the point. My primary point is that the people that actually want to play with Time Walk and want to get into Legacy and Vintage now are such a small subsection of the Magic play group that there are plenty of other things Wizards can do for the game that will make more players happy and be less controversial than reprinting cards on the reserved list.
The reason I brought up Modern isn't because I assumed you like it, I brought it up to stress that the reason Legacy isn't popular isn't because decks cost a lot of money to build. Modern has some expensive staples that can be reprinted, but many of them aren't being reprinted, and people still play the format with those expensive cards.
Yes you would be completely outclassed if you tried to play certain decks in Legacy without shock lands. That's the way it is. You can play another Legacy deck that's cheaper or play another format, or buy the cards, or play a different game. The vast majority of players don't want to play Legacy and Vintage. The vast majority of players are fine with cards like Darkslick Shores and Watery Grave. They could care less if Underground Sea was reprinted and then there's another set of players who don't want Underground Sea to be reprinted because Wizards explicitly told them multiple times that it wouldn't be reprinted.
The reason I'm arguing is because I want people that are advocating for the ending of the reserved list to understand how small of a minority they are in relation to other players. 99% of players don't care that less than 2% of Magic cards (and most of that 2% are really crappy cards) won't ever be reprinted. In fact many players would complain if most of the cards on the reserve list were reprinted because they are so crappy. Virtually no one plays formats where Time Walk is legal, and kitchen table casual players don't want to play with cards that broken and stupid.
And once again, no it's not solely because of the price of the format. As I said previously, three or four years ago when the original dual lands were substantially less expensive than they are now and some Legacy decks had the value of what many Modern decks have today, Legacy still wasn't not a widely popular format. The format was still dying. Modern is a very successful and vibrant format and it's probably more expensive than it's ever been. Modern Jeskai costs about $1400 to build. Modern Jund costs more than $2000 to build. Players still play the format. 1v1 Commander is more popular than its ever been as a competitive format and those decks are even more expensive. Competitive four color control decks in 1v1 commander cost over $3000 to build.
One could actually make an argument that it would be selfish and short sighted for Wizards reprint cards on the reserved list. It would be violating a promise that was made to older and seasoned customers to appease a very small amount of players that actually want to play with the cards even though there are tens of thousands of other cards they can access that can also be reprinted along with other formats. 98% of cards in the game are eligible to be reprinted. 98%! Is it really such a bad thing that there is a very small subsection of cards that players can collect without worrying about their cards becoming less rare?
I certainly will acknowledge it is kind of rough for players that want to play Legacy competitively now and don't have any Legacy staples (although I could say the same thing about Modern), but players that have a strong desire to play Legacy are such a small part of the player base. I think a better solution would be to ban reserved list cards in Legacy, but I'm sure players interested in getting into the format would just end up complaining about that.
If players really want to get into Legacy so badly, they should either invest in the cards, knowing they will only go up in value or play a budget deck (yes, there are viable Legacy decks that don't cost $5000 to build).
Cards like Tabernacle are such an outlier in formats like Commander it's hardly worth mentioning. The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale isn't even played in 1/10th of 1% of Commander decks.
First and foremost I never meant to intend that anyone opposed to the reserved list is being contrarian. My primary argument is that unless you seriously are interested in playing Vintage or Legacy, the fate of the reserve list is hardly relevant and there are way more people that complain about the reserved list than people that already play or are seriously interested in playing Legacy or Vintage.
Cost is not the only reason people aren't interested in playing Legacy and Vintage. Three or four years ago when the original dual lands were substantially less expensive than they are now and some Legacy decks had the value of what many Modern decks have today, Legacy still wasn't not a widely popular format. The format was still dying. Modern is a very successful and vibrant format and it's probably more expensive than it's ever been. Modern Jeskai costs about $1400 to build. Modern Jund costs more than $2000 to build. Players still play the format. 1v1 Commander is more popular than its ever been as a competitive format and those decks are even more expensive. Competitive 4 color control decks in 1v1 commander cost over $3000 to build.
Additionally, I believe you took my comments on dual lands out of context or perhaps I wasn't being clear. My point is that dual lands aren't essential unless you are playing at competitively in a format like Vintage or Legacy (formats a very very small percentage of Magic players play) or you are in an elite rare group of incredibly highly competitive Commander players.
I really think it is fascinating that people genuinely believe that there is a significant section of the Magic player base that would love to play Vintage if only they could afford to do so. The vast majority of players don't want to play a format where games end in two or three turns. The vast majority of players have no desire to play against broken cards like Time Walk. Not to mention there is a subsection of players that Wizards explicitly promised that they would never print Time Walk again.
You say Magic should be a game first and a collectible second. I agree and I think Wizards agrees. That's why 98% of cards are eligible for reprint and in the past 3 years, Wizards has been reprinting more often and more aggressively than in the history of the game.
For what it's worth, I'm not opposed to making exceptions to the reserved list, but I don't think it's a big deal. The fate of the reserved list will impact a very small section of players that don't already own cards on the reserved list. For the incredibly tiny minority of players that are seriously interested in playing Vintage, proxy cards or invest in them knowing that they will retain their value and continue to increase because of the reserved list.
I disagree here. I think vast majority of Magic the Gathering players would say that cards like The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale and Invoke Prejudice are broken and unfun to play against. There are way more players that want Wizards to reprint Demonic Tutor or Snapcaster Mage than Time Walk or Ancestral Recall. I think a very small minority of players want to play a format as fast as Vintage or as skill intensive as Legacy. Even before dual lands were worth an arm and a leg the format was already dying in favor of other formats because people prefer to play Magic other ways.
Personally, if the dual lands were reprinted, I'd play with them, because while they are powerful, they aren't inherently broken or unfun to play against, but I certainly don't need to play with them. I once spent $150 on a judge promo Intuition for Commander because there are no other cards in the format that do anything like that card. I wouldn't spend anywhere near that on Badlands when I can play Blood Crypt and other RB lands that do practically the same thing. Unless you are playing at an incredibly competitive level, you don't need Underground Sea, and if you really are so die hard and serious, trade or buy into the cards knowing they will retain their value because they are on the reserved list rather than complaining that Wizards won't break a promise that would piss off a lot of players and help a small fraction of players. Yes, Legacy is expensive, but if someone really wants enter the format, there are some Legacy decks that can be played on a budget that rivals competitive Modern decks.
As far as Wizards wanting people not to play Eternal formats, I don't believe that. Commander is an eternal format. Commander is a format which allow cards from all Magic: The Gathering sets with the standard card back and non-silver-bordered card frames. It is also a format where the vast majority of heavily played cards aren't printed in Standard expansions (Out of the top played 100 cards in the format, only two of them are legal in Standard right now) yet Wizards is constantly promoting and supporting the format and is even introducing new cards in Standard expansions intended for this Eternal format because a ton of players enjoy playing it.
The dual lands are good, but absolutely not essential except for in very competitive circles of play. There are dozens of dual lands including many that enter untapped. Only for a small fraction of the most competitive players want them to significantly improve their decks.
You say it's not being contrary, but I think it is. Even though there are tens of thousands of unique cards, because a very small fraction of them aren't being reprinted, people are complaining about it even though the majority of players don't actually want those cards to be reprinted. This is especially true about the jank cards or the incredibly OP cards that almost no one wants to play against (i.e. Time Walk) Not to mention there is a sub section of players that DON'T want those cards reprinted and Wizards explicitly promised them they wouldn't reprint those cards.
Note: Assume that the card stock quality including the premium card stock is comparable to the Dominaria card stock.
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This is a genuine question I am asking in good faith. Why are so many players obsessed over the fact that the reserved list isn't being abolished?
There are about 600 cards on the Reserved List and over 20,000 unique cards that have been printed.
That means less than 3% of Magic cards are on the reserved list. Out of that 3%, many of the cards are really crappy cards like Thelonite Monk, Keeper of Tresserhorn, Fungus Elemental and Spirit Shield. Some of these are cards that are so bad, many players would actually complain if Wizards reprinted those cards.
Yes, it would be nice if I could get an Underground Sea for my Commander deck without having to spend $530.00, but does it prevent me from building a viable Commander deck? Of course not. Are most commander players going to lose a game because they aren't running Breeding Pool instead of Tropical Island? Of course not.
The thousands of players on Reddit and Blogatog complaining about the reserved list surely can't all be Legacy and Vintage players. The amount of Legacy and Vintage players is so small in relation to other Magic players.
What decks are you just dying to build with broken cards like Black Lotus? Kitchen table decks? Why not just proxy them? Maybe it's that players are upset cards that are obviously broken like Treachery, Time Walk and Ancestral Recall won't be reprinted.
Those cards surely wouldn't be legal in formats like Standard or Modern if they were reprinted. Many of the powerful cards on the reserved list are already banned in Commander. I can't seriously believe that all the players that complain about the reserve list are Legacy/Vintage players or players that genuinely want to spend time delving into Legacy and Vintage. I believe that's the case because I have encountered several players at LGS's that complain about the reserve list and have no desire or intention of playing Legacy or Vintage. I honestly believe a lot of players just like to complain because out of the formats and the ways the vast majority of players play Magic the Gathering, one can easily build decks without relying on cards from the reserved list.
So what is it about the reserved list that drives you mad? What am I missing? What specifically do you want reprinted on the reserved list and why?
Note: I'm not a proponent or supporter of the reserved list but I don't think my life as a avid Magic enthusiast would be significantly impacted for better or for worse if the reserve list were abolished or maintained. There are numerous cards that aren't on the reserve list that I would prefer to be reprinted over cards that are on the reserved list. For what it's worth, I am a casual/semi-competitive Commander and Modern player that drafts sometimes.