Well I am trying to play UR Dynavolt tower, but I hate it.
Dynavolt tower is too slow and harnessed lightning (Which doesn't go to the face) and 4 glimmer of genious a bunch more lands some counterspells because its a slow deck now and 4 Torrential Gearhulk. At which point it is a completely different deck that plays completely differently.
Well, yeah. At that point, it plays more like a traditional control deck. You answer or counter their threats while doing incidental damage before you can land a creature and kill them with it.
I think that the URx Thermo decks have enough choices that it'll stay competitive for a while. Right now, the current builds are not well-positioned because of the influx of aggro everywhere. Fevered Visions, in particular, helps low to the ground aggro more than it hurts them. The deck just doesn't do well against swarms of aggro creatures, and Copter is a problem. Three toughness is now the magic number.
With that in mind, I'd think that Weaver of Lightning deserves a shot at main deck status. He has reach to block the Copter, and he gives that crucial power boost to the first Galvanic Bombardment to kill things. He also kills servos and thopters quite effectively. Thing in the Ice is objectively more powerful, but it can't block flying.
I also think that Unsubstantiate is highly underrated since it can temporarily stop almost anything. Returning a Copter to someone's hand is a big deal since it doesn't have haste, and they've tapped down potential blockers to Crew it.
I don't own any Aether Hub either, I have a quadrillion evolving wilds so for the moment I put a few of those in and I have just been goldfishing all weekend, (I ended up not going to the GPT but I will likely head to standard on Tuesday),
getting blue hasn't been that hard, but I am not sure how the ETB tapped lands will effect my ablity to win games though.
I can't imagine playing the deck without blue, Fevered visions is the reason it works at all.
Adding to the list of werid card availbility I own 3-4 thing in the ice and about 2 stormchaser mage. Because I hated the BFZ block and enjoyed Shadows addtiontally people bring rares to trade but never uncommons. The people at the SCG tournament are going with Stormchasers from what I have seen.
Emphasis mine.
Smuggler's Copters are everywhere, so Stormchaser Mage is the better choice since it can block it with even just one spell. Galvanic Bombardment + Stormchaser will destroy the Copter.
This plays nice with Saheeli Rai. Flash it in at the end of their turn, cast something, then on your turn -2 Saheeli to get another cast trigger and a hasty 5/6 to go along with your current 5/6.
Right. More lands are obviously better. I've seen comments to the effect of wanting to hold lands to draw off of Collective Defiance. That seems like a mistake. Playing those lands also means they aren't lost when a Reveler comes out to play.
The difficulty with going more sorcery-speed burn is that it doesn't really play well with what the rest of the deck is trying to do. It can be quite powerful, sure, but it's more inconsistent. Our creatures function when we cast spells, so it doesn't really matter what the spell does. Thermo-Alchemist, Stormchaser, and Reveler don't care if you're casting Collective Defiance, Galvanic Bombardment, or Anticipate. If you're not casting more spells, then you're not utilizing them to their fullest.
Personally, I think the deck is more Tempo Burn than anything else. The Burn is there to complement what the rest of the deck is doing, not supplant it. My version is a bit unconventional, but it works for me.
Card Choices
I run fewer lands since I run more draw/filtering. The deck tops out at 3 CMC -- except for Reveler, of course -- and I don't want to get clogged with lands. I will also play every land that comes into my hand, except when I want to bluff. If I'm drawing more, then I want to be casting more. Chaining spells together gets you more triggers for the creatures.
The creatures are the main kill conditions. Stormchaser is great for his haste and evasion, getting in and chipping away for damage. He's also a pretty good blocker. Jori is card draw. Cast Jori, then cast another spell, draw a card. Reveler is big and mean, drawing into more gas as needed, and killing on the ground.
Unsubstantiate and Grip of the Roil are tempo spells. For two mana, you get to delay a creature. Kalitas got ya down? Tap him down or return him to their hand. That extra turn you get may just be what you need to win. Unsubstantiate can also hit spells, and it works with Visions by putting that card back into their hand. Wait for them to tap out for a spell, then Unsubstantiate it. Tada. They just wasted their mana resources, and you got a trigger for your creatures.
Anticipate, Grip of the Roil, Jori En, and Fevered Visions are the draw. Anticipate can often dig to find you what you need. It's instant speed, so you can use it on the opponent's turn, getting another Alchemist trigger. At the end of their turn, tap Alchemist, cast Anticipate, untap Alchemist, and then tap him again for another point of damage. It's even more disgusting with two Alchemists in play. Grip delays a creature and draws a card, often drawing into more spells, which allows for more triggers. Jori's there as an experiment, but she seems promising. I really don't need to say more about Fevered Visions.
Galvanic Bombardment and Lightning Axe are there to kill problem creatures. Don't forget that you can suicide Stormchaser into a 4-toughness creature to kill it after throwing a Bombardment at it.
Incendiary Flow, Fiery Temper and Collective Defiance are both creature kill and go-to-the-face burn, and they're very good at it. Flow is there to get rid of things you don't want to see again and again. I almost never cast Defiance for the full five. I'm not as interested in the discard/draw as I am in being able to burn things with it. The option is there, however.
I don't have a decent sideboard yet, but Dispel and Negate should be there. I'm also a fan of Compelling Deterrence since it can temporarily get rid of problem planeswalkers, enchantments, or anything else.
How many instants do you have that you can play on their turn? Playing with the deck, I've noticed that I like a good mix of Instants and Sorceries. Most of the burn versions tend to more sorceries, but the instants allow for more tempo tricks.
Unsubstantiate is a very good card for tempo plays, especially since it resets creatures like Kalitas and deals with Ormendahl, Profane Prince quote nicely. (Watch them crumble after they sack their board to Abbey just to have their Prince returned to their hand.) If you can prevent those chunks of lifegain, then you can usually beat them. Unsubstantiate will also allow you to stop something like Collective Defiance.
I think it's a mistake to not be running some kind of card draw or filtering since you can often just start chaining spells together for more Alchemist triggers / Prowess triggers / or Thing counters. I like Anticipate to dig for more stuff. For that reason, I'll almost always put lands into play when I have them. More lands = more spells to be cast.
I don't like it in madness decks, because all the madness costs are high except Fiery Temper, so tacking on an extra 2 mana just makes cards like Voldaren Pariah come into play too late. If you somehow discarded the cards at the beginning of your next upkeep it would be a lot better.
That is not a good way to evaluate the card. It's not making Pariah worse. Instead, you're gaining more effects. For five mana, you're getting a creature out of it, stripping a card out of their hand, shrinking a dude, or draining them for life.
Brutality plus Alms of the Vein and Fiery Temper reads 1BBR: Strip a card, shrink a dude, drain 5 life, and deal three burn damage. That's an insane amount of value.
If you go hellbent with Brutality and Bloodhall Priest, then you can use the -2/-2 to shrink a dude then use the Priest trigger to deal two more damage, killing up to a four toughness creature.
Here's my take on BR Madness vamps. It completely eschews the 1-drops for more powerful creatures and spells. The power of Madness is that it cheats at putting things out at instant speed, so it's important to have a good mix.
I'm trying out Senseless Rage as a good way to increase the power and toughness of the smaller creatures, and it can ambush stuff at instant speed with a discard outlet. The Collective Brutality + Alms of the Vein synergy is particularly strong.
I went with a 2/2 split between Asylum Visitor and Stromkirk Occultist because the Visitor is great when hellbent, but the Occultist is a stronger attacker with Stromkirk Condemned. And their Madness costs of 1B and 1R, respectfully, help speed things up, which is important.
If she sticks, [/card]Olivia, Mobilized for War[/card] is a monster, especially with Bloodhall Priest.
I've been toying with a deck in this direction as well. I think it needs the additional oomph of some other mechanic; leveraging awaken though Halimar Tidecaller and Wandering Fumarole is an interesting idea. If you're going in that direction, have you considered Part the Waterveil as an alternate (e.g. sideboard) win con instead of Rise from the Tides? It's not as susceptible to Kozilek's Return, for example.
I've been contemplating a madness-oriented version of these decks to increase the value from Nahir's Wrath, Collective Defiance, and/or Lightning Axe. One option would be to use Jori En to build and keep card advantage instead of fevered visions, particularly against more aggressive decks. I'm still trying to figure out when and if using Broken Concentration as the discard makes sense, both from value perspective and a rules perspective; madness mechanics and valuation are both a little confusing.
The Tidecallers are mostly there as additional card advantage with the Clutch of Currents and Scatter to the Winds. The awakened, flying lands were just gravy, especially with the Wandering Fumaroles. The Fumaroles were nice in that they dodged almost all of the bounce effects.
I actually never cast Rise from the Tides, so I can't really say how well it would have worked. I had it cast against me, but Displacement Wave shut it down rather hard. I'm probably going to replace Rise with something else since the zombies come in tapped, and it would be the most expensive card to cast.
If you look at the Pro Tour list you will see he has gone away from the bounce and into more of a damage based plan. There are a ton of ways in the list to survive D Command.
That list went 9-1 against a field that was 30% Bant coco. I think it's proven that the heavy blue version is inferior to the heavy red burn version. Being able to just end games with direct damage can't be ignored.
I'm not sure that one is strictly better than the other. The burn version is slanted towards controlling the board while working towards a giant Thing to clear everything away. It seems like Fevered Visions is more for card advantage rather than a kill condition, so it's not as necessary. It helps keep the pressure going.
The blue version stalls while using incremental damage to whittle the opponent down. Fevered Visions is a primary win condition, so having it is absolutely necessary since it damages the opponent and keeps up a steady stream of card advantage. Homunculous helps tremendously in that regard, allowing you to cast multiple spells while leaving mana up.
Maybe there's a way to combine elements of both lists. Hmmm, Fall of the Titans can do both at once, and it's easy to cast for surge cost in these lists. I think I'll try it in place of Grip of the Roil for more direct damage.
I played a version of Matt Higgs's Blue Oyster Bolt deck (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/33412_Brewing-With-Ratios.html) at FNM to a 3-3 finish. Not horrible for someone who hasn't played Standard in several months and made several awful misplays. Each round was win-a-pack, and I lucked into a Liliana after my last round opponent dropped.
My most favorite moment was watching my opponent sacrifice his board to bring out Ormendahl, Profane Prince while I had Unsubstantiate in hand. I almost felt bad for him.
TCGPLayer Mid currently prices this deck around $36, and that's including the lands. Take those out, and it's under $30. One of the best parts is that the deck basically survives rotation intact. Displacement Wave is the only Origins card in the deck.
It was actually quite a blast to play, and it took several people by surprise. I would have done a lot better if I hadn't misplayed several times, so the deck does have a lot of play to it. At no point did I ever feel overmatched by anything, including 4-Color Company.
I have some thoughts and suggestions regarding the deck.
Anticipate is absolutely necessary for the deck to function. I had two since I had 4 Take Inventory, but Anticipate was better for digging for Fevered Visions.
Unsubstantiate was amazing since it could (temporarily) counter a spell or return a creature. If it said nonland permanent, it would be busted beyond belief.
Resolved Planeswalkers were especially difficult to handle, so I feel that 2 Compelling Deterrence would be helpful to reset them. The instant speed would be nice as well.
I wanted some additional damage, so I added Stormchaser Mage to the main alongside the Curious Homunculous and Halimar Tidecaller. It was very effective and won me several games. It's a good blocker and attacker because of its prowess. But you sometimes need a good blocker on the ground to stop stuff from killing you. Hence, Thermo-Alchemist. It can get damage in regardless of attacking. Absolutely gross with two on board and an active Fevered Visions.
I added in 4 Wandering Fumarole for an additional attacker and something that dodges mass bounce effects. It was great to awaken a Fumarole and then use it as a 7/4 flying attacker with Tidecaller. It also dodges a lot of removal. Four were too many since coming in to play tapped sucked at times, so two may be correct.
An opponent used Contingency Plan to great effect at flipping his Curious Homunculous. It would also be excellent at setting up draws from Fevered Visions. I want to try two, but three may be the correct number.
I absolutely wanted more lands with the extra cards from Fevered Visions, so 22 lands. It may seem light, but none of the spells cost all that much, and the digging helps set up draws.
So, with that in mind, here's an updated list that I'm going to try --
Well, yeah. At that point, it plays more like a traditional control deck. You answer or counter their threats while doing incidental damage before you can land a creature and kill them with it.
With that in mind, I'd think that Weaver of Lightning deserves a shot at main deck status. He has reach to block the Copter, and he gives that crucial power boost to the first Galvanic Bombardment to kill things. He also kills servos and thopters quite effectively. Thing in the Ice is objectively more powerful, but it can't block flying.
I also think that Unsubstantiate is highly underrated since it can temporarily stop almost anything. Returning a Copter to someone's hand is a big deal since it doesn't have haste, and they've tapped down potential blockers to Crew it.
Emphasis mine.
Smuggler's Copters are everywhere, so Stormchaser Mage is the better choice since it can block it with even just one spell. Galvanic Bombardment + Stormchaser will destroy the Copter.
I'm wondering if Dynavolt Tower is worth considering. Throw in some of the energy cards like Harnessed Lightning or even Thriving Turtle, and that might be an engine worth considering.
And I'd imagine that this plus Engulf the Shore or even Unsubstantiate would be a rather powerful tempo play.
No. You can escalate Collective Defiance twice, but its base CMC is three.
Personally, I think the deck is more Tempo Burn than anything else. The Burn is there to complement what the rest of the deck is doing, not supplant it. My version is a bit unconventional, but it works for me.
4 Wandering Fumarole
4 Shivan Reef
4 Islands
10 Mountains
Creatures 10
3 Stormchaser Mage
4 Thermo-Alchemist
1 Jori En, Ruin Diver
2 Bedlam Reveler
4 Galvanic Bombardment
2 Lightning Axe
3 Anticipate
2 Incendiary Flow
4 Unsubstantiate
4 Collective Defiance
4 Fevered Visions
3 Fiery Temper
2 Grip of the Roil
Card Choices
I run fewer lands since I run more draw/filtering. The deck tops out at 3 CMC -- except for Reveler, of course -- and I don't want to get clogged with lands. I will also play every land that comes into my hand, except when I want to bluff. If I'm drawing more, then I want to be casting more. Chaining spells together gets you more triggers for the creatures.
The creatures are the main kill conditions. Stormchaser is great for his haste and evasion, getting in and chipping away for damage. He's also a pretty good blocker. Jori is card draw. Cast Jori, then cast another spell, draw a card. Reveler is big and mean, drawing into more gas as needed, and killing on the ground.
Unsubstantiate and Grip of the Roil are tempo spells. For two mana, you get to delay a creature. Kalitas got ya down? Tap him down or return him to their hand. That extra turn you get may just be what you need to win. Unsubstantiate can also hit spells, and it works with Visions by putting that card back into their hand. Wait for them to tap out for a spell, then Unsubstantiate it. Tada. They just wasted their mana resources, and you got a trigger for your creatures.
Anticipate, Grip of the Roil, Jori En, and Fevered Visions are the draw. Anticipate can often dig to find you what you need. It's instant speed, so you can use it on the opponent's turn, getting another Alchemist trigger. At the end of their turn, tap Alchemist, cast Anticipate, untap Alchemist, and then tap him again for another point of damage. It's even more disgusting with two Alchemists in play. Grip delays a creature and draws a card, often drawing into more spells, which allows for more triggers. Jori's there as an experiment, but she seems promising. I really don't need to say more about Fevered Visions.
Galvanic Bombardment and Lightning Axe are there to kill problem creatures. Don't forget that you can suicide Stormchaser into a 4-toughness creature to kill it after throwing a Bombardment at it.
Incendiary Flow, Fiery Temper and Collective Defiance are both creature kill and go-to-the-face burn, and they're very good at it. Flow is there to get rid of things you don't want to see again and again. I almost never cast Defiance for the full five. I'm not as interested in the discard/draw as I am in being able to burn things with it. The option is there, however.
I don't have a decent sideboard yet, but Dispel and Negate should be there. I'm also a fan of Compelling Deterrence since it can temporarily get rid of problem planeswalkers, enchantments, or anything else.
Is it perfect, no, but it seems to work for me.
Unsubstantiate is a very good card for tempo plays, especially since it resets creatures like Kalitas and deals with Ormendahl, Profane Prince quote nicely. (Watch them crumble after they sack their board to Abbey just to have their Prince returned to their hand.) If you can prevent those chunks of lifegain, then you can usually beat them. Unsubstantiate will also allow you to stop something like Collective Defiance.
I think it's a mistake to not be running some kind of card draw or filtering since you can often just start chaining spells together for more Alchemist triggers / Prowess triggers / or Thing counters. I like Anticipate to dig for more stuff. For that reason, I'll almost always put lands into play when I have them. More lands = more spells to be cast.
That is not a good way to evaluate the card. It's not making Pariah worse. Instead, you're gaining more effects. For five mana, you're getting a creature out of it, stripping a card out of their hand, shrinking a dude, or draining them for life.
Brutality plus Alms of the Vein and Fiery Temper reads 1BBR: Strip a card, shrink a dude, drain 5 life, and deal three burn damage. That's an insane amount of value.
If you go hellbent with Brutality and Bloodhall Priest, then you can use the -2/-2 to shrink a dude then use the Priest trigger to deal two more damage, killing up to a four toughness creature.
I'm trying out Senseless Rage as a good way to increase the power and toughness of the smaller creatures, and it can ambush stuff at instant speed with a discard outlet. The Collective Brutality + Alms of the Vein synergy is particularly strong.
I went with a 2/2 split between Asylum Visitor and Stromkirk Occultist because the Visitor is great when hellbent, but the Occultist is a stronger attacker with Stromkirk Condemned. And their Madness costs of 1B and 1R, respectfully, help speed things up, which is important.
If she sticks, [/card]Olivia, Mobilized for War[/card] is a monster, especially with Bloodhall Priest.
No sideboard yet since I'm still messing around with it. I'd imagine some amount of Transgress the Mind, more kill spells like Incendiary Flow, Savage Alliance, or even Radiant Flames for weenie swarms. I'm toying with putting Distended Mindbender in there for some shenanigans.
1 Geier Reach Sanitarium
4 Foreboding Ruins
4 Smoldering Marsh
4 Mountain
10 Swamp
Creatures 23
4 Heir of Falkenrath
2 Olivia's Dragoon
2 Asylum Visitor
2 Stromkirk Condemned
4 Stromkirk Occultist
2 Olivia, Mobilized for War
4 Bloodhall Priest
3 Incorrigible Youths
2 Lightning Axe
4 Collective Brutality
3 Alms of the Vein
3 Fiery Temper
Enchantments 2
2 Senseless Rage
Thank you for your hard work and dedication to keeping this thread going.
The Tidecallers are mostly there as additional card advantage with the Clutch of Currents and Scatter to the Winds. The awakened, flying lands were just gravy, especially with the Wandering Fumaroles. The Fumaroles were nice in that they dodged almost all of the bounce effects.
I actually never cast Rise from the Tides, so I can't really say how well it would have worked. I had it cast against me, but Displacement Wave shut it down rather hard. I'm probably going to replace Rise with something else since the zombies come in tapped, and it would be the most expensive card to cast.
I'm not sure that one is strictly better than the other. The burn version is slanted towards controlling the board while working towards a giant Thing to clear everything away. It seems like Fevered Visions is more for card advantage rather than a kill condition, so it's not as necessary. It helps keep the pressure going.
The blue version stalls while using incremental damage to whittle the opponent down. Fevered Visions is a primary win condition, so having it is absolutely necessary since it damages the opponent and keeps up a steady stream of card advantage. Homunculous helps tremendously in that regard, allowing you to cast multiple spells while leaving mana up.
Maybe there's a way to combine elements of both lists. Hmmm, Fall of the Titans can do both at once, and it's easy to cast for surge cost in these lists. I think I'll try it in place of Grip of the Roil for more direct damage.
My most favorite moment was watching my opponent sacrifice his board to bring out Ormendahl, Profane Prince while I had Unsubstantiate in hand. I almost felt bad for him.
TCGPLayer Mid currently prices this deck around $36, and that's including the lands. Take those out, and it's under $30. One of the best parts is that the deck basically survives rotation intact. Displacement Wave is the only Origins card in the deck.
It was actually quite a blast to play, and it took several people by surprise. I would have done a lot better if I hadn't misplayed several times, so the deck does have a lot of play to it. At no point did I ever feel overmatched by anything, including 4-Color Company.
I have some thoughts and suggestions regarding the deck.
So, with that in mind, here's an updated list that I'm going to try --
2 Evolving Wilds
2 Wandering Fumarole
5 Mountains
13 Islands
Creatures 10
4 Curious Homunculous
4 Thermo-Alchemist
2 Halimar Tidecaller
Spells 28
2 Contingency Plan
4 Anticipate
2 Grip of the Roil
2 Compelling Deterrence
4 Clutch of Currents
4 Unsubstantiate
4 Engulf the Shore
2 Scatter to the Winds
4 Fevered Visions
2 Displacement Wave
2 Rise from the Tides
2 Imprisoned in the Moon
4 Radiant Flames
4 Negate
1 Scatter to the Winds
Some additional cards to consider --
Let me know what you think.