I haven't noticed any offense from Iso (he's playing pretty badly though, but that's expected), but let me tell one thing: I think you and the new generation is full of pretty good players. You, Eron, LenKen, Miracule, Foxlet are all players I would love to have on my team anytime.
I would ask you to continue but from my experience mafia is not the kind of games everyone can enjoy, you have to be tough and be able to withstand lots of "damage". So I understand if you cannot go further.
I apologise to everyone, especially Iso, for the way I went about this.
Nobody has done anything directed at me that offended me - it's the attitude towards the game. In this and the other games I've played here, there have been players who've had the attitude that their time is more important than mine, and so the game loses its value to me.
I realise this isn't related specifically to the game, but I thought I'd post it here because my leaving affects everyone currently playing directly.
Best of luck to everyone, and I hope my leaving the game doesn't disrupt it too much.
I'm not patronising you, I'm expressing my frustration.
In fact, the tone of a lot of the 'veteran' players around here is incredibly partonising to the newer ones of us.
I apologise if I've offended you, but I too have been offended.
Anyway, I've already expressed why I think Eron is scum. Go find it.
I'm out.
Mod, can I have a replacement please. Thanks for the game
Iso, that's not playing the game at all. I don't know what your IRL situation is, but I work 12 hours a day, come home, and still actually try to make posts. You, and others, post garbage like that and expect to get away with it because you've played here for a long time.
It's not worth my time anymore.
Bolly is clearly town, like totally man, can't you see it?
I'm with Bolly's recent comment - I'm sick of unjustified statements like that. They don't help anything. Argue the point or don't bring it up.
Note to self (but actually everyone): When DRey flips scum Bolly is cleared.
So my things are a null tell, I have good points and yet you vote for me.
EWP: BTW that's really hipocrisy, I won't deny it, I actually noticed it before posting, but that's how I felt so I posted anyway, I don't try to "not" seem scumy when I'm town, I just post everything that comes into my mind.
EWP2:The green is very, very wrong. But I don't expect you to know this, so I will disregard.
Nice convenient editing of my post. Cutting out bits of my post without putting at least an ellipsis is just foul play as far as I'm concerned. Did you realise I was totally justified in what I said and just decided to cut out the defining bit in the hope nobody noticed?
EWP response: So it's ok for you to call me out on it but not visa versa?
EWP2 response: There's no way it's not at least considered, and only done if they think they can argue their way out of it. Theory debate doesn't particularly help in game though, I read this more of a subtle "hey guys just ignore the new kid" thing you're trying to do.
I'll be honest, Arnaria isn't the best player. He undoubtedly assumed that none of the town went to the high school, and thought that by shooting Pinky he could kill him.
Hence why we need to vote void, as Arnaria's replacement.
I'm not sure Arn would think it was ok to just obviously kill town and get away with it, but I'm still really not understanding how the ability Arn/Void apparently have/had is a pro-town ability.
Your accusation seems a bit more aggressive than the information at hand could justify, Tetris. I'm going to hand out an FoS: Tetris, because the implication of that post just pings me in some way. It's a poorly justified smear campaign (considering Void's behaviour today has given us actual reason to suspect him), which to me seems like an attempt at distancing without increasing risk of Void's lynch.
You must be kidding right? Eron did absolutely nothing scummy yesterday (except the daykill thing, but he explained it fair enought) yet Ced was killed proclaiming Eron to be town and you are trying to condemn Eron? Are you kidding right? I mean why aren't you searching for the guys Ced suspected instead? like scumhunt usually works? Do you think is likely for scum to kill the friggin miller if he was wrong in his opinions? The chances Ced was onto something is much greater than he was wrong.
First up, what daykill thing?
Also, I think it's blind of you to say Eron didn't do anything scummy yesterday - especially seeing as there was a reasonable amount of focus on him yesterday and you weren't quite as vocal then. The question is whether or not that blindness is intentional...
Also also, I think that even the noobiest noob would know that NKing the person who was most vocally suspicious of them would immediately draw that kind of attention, and would try to avoid it.
Considering Eron was consdered a viable choice for lynch yesterday, plus one of his only defenders just got the axe plus is a newbie that can't defend himself very well (this one is not very true in my mind, but I think it is on theirs) it's obvious the scum plan was to try to frame him Eron today therefore he's now 99% cleared to me.
This is a fairly good point. Given that I think both you and Eron are scum, though, maybe we've found why ced was killed! This isn't an outright accusation, I'm just saying it's a complete null tell for me. Given that it's you who's stated this, I will add that I think you and Eron are on the same team. I'm just not convinced it's town...
Anyway, if you think Eron is a good lead, why aren't you voting him, only stating your suspitions to wait for approval before commiting a vote is scummy you know?][QUOTE]I will wait for the others to check in
Good point. Vote: DRey
Hypocrisy city. Also, if you and Eron are aligned, you are where my vote should be. I think you're much more dangerous than Eron as scum, and as town Eron's at least providing more content than you.
***Void v arim***
Void definitely seems to be missing the point here. The implication from him seems to be that pb would only die from Arn/Void's ability if the hammer fell before Void got back to us. As arim has stated, whether Void got back to us or not, the ability had been used, so there's no benefit for scum either way.
If DRey and/or Eron somehow flip scum, there's definitely room for you in my list Void.
As for Gman, this will definitely require a reread. Given that Eron came up with the majority of the evidence, I'm going to have to take it with a grain of salt and make my own judgements based on total reread. Seeing as Eron (and DRey subtly) are implying the ced NK leads to a Gman = scum conclusion, this adds to the motivation behind the NK IMO.
I'm asking you to explain why you think I would take the actions I've taken as scum specifically, rather than as town.
While I don't necessarily agree with Void's initial argument, that right there is the essence of WIFOM. As far as I can tell your defense boils down to "A specific event would be advantageous if I were scum, it didn't happen, therefore you can't say I'm scum." Also, it's possible you voted with that as your intention, and your buddies told you you'd get caught. Null tell on the NK, FoS: arimnaes for the reaction.
The bolded is true about the ability that was used by Arn. It does not confirm alignment in the least.
Could you please explain how this power is advantageous in the hands of a towny, then?
Other than that: it seems ced was fairly neutral on the Eron situation, with him having Eron leaning slightly town (at least, searching for posts by ced with the word "Eron" in them seems to have yielded a few recent results indicating this). If Eron is scum, seems like a good choice for lynch seeing as it's hard to determine much re Eron from his death. I'm aware that I'm trying to draw information from something by stating you can't draw information from it, but figured I'd put it out there.
Iso and our history has started with him as an alt in Mario Bros and he fake claimed a character that someone else had and he was town. Me thinking he was scum in Agatha Christine and arguing like mad.
In short I don't see anything wrong with Iso's comment to me when I said I believe him to be town. And I think CF trying to say a person would say X is not useful. Everyone reacts differently and there are joke, relationships and simple comments are just simple.
The bolded is essentially the whole point of the game, no?
When I read this post it makes me feel like I'm not expressing my concern about Iso properly, but every time I try I just end up writing what I've already written. However, there are many bigger fish to fry at this stage, so there's no point arguing this at the moment. Expect me to return to this if my suspect list changes.
I did, you must have missed it around how certain you were that you caught a slip.
It was an OoG joke that I made because pinky and I have a history together from other games.
I'm not sure at all - I just wanted clarification that you haven't been able to provide.
I don't believe that train of thought would make sense or even occur if you were town, but I guess we're just butting heads on the point.
Interested to hear pinky's take on it....
Iso, are you going to contribute any action or only reaction?
...and your argument is, "I don't understand why town would make this post," but that's exactly what it boils down to - you not understanding.
But from my end it's a valid concern. I've noticed you doing something that makes no sense (sure, as far as I can see) for a towny to do. Your argument is "town would do it because I did and I'm town". If the ridiculousness hasn't come across yet, here is an extreme example.
Player X: I am the mafia guys. I love killing townies.
Player Y: I believe Player X just revealed himself as mafia - why else would he say that?
Player X: No I'm town. I said it as town, so that is proof that town have a reason to say it.
Now obviously the actual case isn't as clear-cut, but I don't suppose you could provide real logic as to why town would ever respond like you did?
That's exactly my point. I just hope you (and everyone else) realise(s) your argument boils down to "I'm not scum because I'm town, k guys?".
I'm not going to push it because I think there are much scummier people out there, but I'm not going to forget the incident.
I would like you to explain to me how me being truthful with my ability is a scumtell. If I was scum, I would have kept the information secret, and I would only use it if a townie was close to being mislynched. Yes this is stretching into the regions of WIFOM (I think, correct me if I'm wrong), but I'm fairly certain that even the most noob scum player wouldn't publicly reveal their ability if they had no reason to (e.g. if it was activated by PM).
I don't think it's a scumtell on its own. Given that I believe Eron is scum, I can see it as a totally valid way to bus. Combined with all your other scumminess, it's something I think is worth noting.
And given that it was you who said the second bit, it's total WIFOM. Your ability, at this stage, has done absolutely nothing. Your revealing it with the argument "I've revealed so there's towny points for me" is it's function so far.
How is it not reaching if you recognize the fact that I could have just as easily said what I said I could have said? pinky and I have a history together, so it was a bit of OoG humor. So yes, it is absolutely reaching.
I don't recognise the fact you could easily say it as town. The line of thinking makes no sense as town. That is the whole crux of my argument.
First off - this whole post seems to me to be scum looking for something to do to show that they are scumhunting when they really aren't. You provide a bunch of reasoning for why someone might be scum but next to nothing for your town reads.
Why focus on me for not going in depth on my town reads? Plenty of people are saying, and have said in every game of mafia ever (possible exagerration) "I'm getting a good town vibe from this person, they're on my town list".
Also, as far as I can see, PoE means I've got a lot of people on my "not scum" list, and a few of them have acted in a way that seems townier than the rest, so they're on my town list.
Also look at the bolded... there's not even a gap in your contradictory statements. Telling me I'm not scumhunting, then saying that my focus is too much on my arguments against my scumspects?
I can't tell if it's the internet talking or not, but the "Ok then" reads incredibly sarcastically (and I think that was your purpose). And yeah, I said I thought it was interesting and worth noting. When did pointing out dodginess without concluding someone is 100% scum stop happening?
So you derive from this that Bolly/DRey are scum but completely ignore the fact that he also uses this information to form an opinion on Pinky. What do you derive from the concern that DRey has regarding her?
My argument is that I think DRey's reasoning is a ploy. Surely it's inherent that I think the accusation of pinky is part of that?
I count 2 "Emoti-responses" as well as some good lines of questioning in regards to what is going on in the game at that time.
Sure there are only 2 that have only an emoti as a response, but there are several glossy statements that don't mean much, and lots of questioning a player who isn't playing anymore. I also clearly mention the fact that there are actual questions in there too. The emoti-responses weren't my only criticism, so your defense of your buddy is pretty weak.
It could be fishing, it could be genuine inquiry - null tell as far as I'm concerned. The specific case isn't the issue, it's the argument (or the dismissal thereof).
Actually, if you have a plan that the town agrees on and you can find out that someone didn't go along with it, that should be a strong scum tell and should be viewed as such.
Sure, but the potential existance VTs and one-shots had been discussed at this point. People who think their one-shots could be put to better use than blind faith in Iso but don't want to discuss it because it's deterimental to town should be lynched?
While I do agree that it was weak reasoning at the time Bolly has gone on to provide an extensive list of reasons why I'm scum. Did you not read them or is it easier to omit this fact when you are trying to paint people? Also, if that was a bad time for Bolly to use his ability, when would you recommend he use it?
The reasoning behind use of the ability was my issue, not the reasoning behind thinking you're scum.
If I were scum with that ability, I'd use it exactly how Bolly did. If I were town with that ability, I wouldn't use it day 1 at all. Informing people of its existance nullifies its affect, and secretly reducing somebody's threshold would just create a bunch of wine on future days if somebody got lynched at what was thought to be L-1.
As for future days, I don't know. The more I think about it, the less use I see the ability even having in town's hands. Verging on modgaming (I think that's appropriate use of the terminology), but why would town even be given a power like that?
Maybe it's because I'm new, but if I don't understand how if I presently have no votes on me, how can this be flailing? Clearly at this moment Aud seems like the most likely lynch. I could just be quiet and throw out some random post every now and again but I'm not. I'm trying to find scum.
THose are some emotional words right there. Again, examples would be great.
Flailing was perhaps a poor choice of word. Struggling maybe? You are desperately 'scumhunting', but nearly all your arguments are full of holes. Every bit of logic you've presented is flawed. For my examples, I use the post of yours I'm currently replying to, and previous accusations against you from myself and others.
Way to fence sit without providing detail. And it's convenient that you left her out of your DRey discussion above where she was mentioned in the same quote.
"Good solid town read on pinky" is fencesitting? I'm surprised you have enough hands to sling so much mad and draw that long bow.
ced's miller claim - I'm happy to just flat out believe this one. In a Mean Girls themed gamed, it would make a lot of sense to have a miller role (Caddie is actually good but appears bad, a 'loser' character nobody likes but is actually good, Regina coming around to being nice but being seen as plastic, etc...). Unless ced is scum and was told there wasn't an actual miller in the game, it seems like a huge risk for scum to hope they don't get CCed by an actual miller, especially seeing as ced's post was one of the earliest. It doesn't mean we should just shut off behavioural analysis, but I'm more than happy to believe it for now. I realise my logic is probably pretty close to flavour gaming, but I'm sticking with it anyway.
Since then, ced's behaviour has done nothing but reinforce my initial thoughts.
Before now, I believed you were scum, and I saw some DRey/Bolly dynamic. 1 + 2 = 3. If there were anything else I'd be a fool to tell you - I'm not going to help you slip below the radar.
So at the end of this massive post, you have 3 scumspects, 2 town, 1 Iso and 6 neutrals. Like I said in the beginning, you said a lot with not a lot of content.
So I believe I've found the scum team, am willing to accept that I'm not perfect so wouldn't be surprised if a fourth person is actually one of the scum, and I haven't found much content?
Compare to your mudslinging and poor arguments mainly against either people who are accusing you or the already-weak. Where's your content?
Ok, so I shouldn't have said absolutely the whole post. The Iso-slip-thingy I think is a detail that is not relevant, and that it isn't a slip. CF is also calling this weak himself.
I do not have Iso as a scum read, I have Iso as leaning town.
CF made a few good points on Guardman as well, but the reason my vote is still there is that I forgot I voted for him (thought I was voting Eron still).
Eron latest post does nothing for me.
unvote, vote EronTheRelentless
Urghhhh, this is horrible. If you're town (which until now I felt reasonably sure you were), Audinho, you're really becoming a liability.
While I'm certain on the Eron front, an Audinho lynch also makes sense. This isn't fencesitting. I am openly approving of an Audinho lynch.
However, I only have one vote, so unless a deadline rears it's ugly head I'm leeaving it on Eron.
"I'll bear in mind that you won't trust me in future games if I'm scum in this game," is somehow a slip when I could have just as easily said, "Good thing I'm town this game!!!111oneelvevnenoene"? Keep reaching. Please.
I really don't see how you can think it's reaching. What information are you bearing in mind, and what will you use it for? If you're scum is something you already know, and if you're town there's nothing to bear in mind. Seems pretty simple to me...
Chickenfish, I feel your push against Bolly is also weak in the regard that he lowered both of their lynch thresholds by 1.
If he didn't think he was scum, you'd have a hard time explaining that.
I don't understand what you're saying here. Bolly's not at risk of lynch, so decreasing his threshold by one doesn't mean anything. Even if he were, decreasing threshold by one this early, AND then telling everybody he'd done so, essentially has no effect except reducing information for town if either of them is lynched. Once again, this is something I've actually already explained...
I didn't realize that my plan would be rendered somewhat more ineffective by people asking questions. I thought I could answer them without it becoming a problem.
And I don't find your reasoning sufficient - please try again.
I refuse to believe you don't see it. "I'll bear that in mind" is responding to a condition that's only true if you're scum. If you were town, there'd be nothing to keep in mind.
Also, how is my reasoniing for my change in plan poorly justified? More information than I wanted regarding my ability was put in the thread, and as such, it gave me reservations about my initial plan.
But you say we'll return to it at some later stage? Also, the only person who put that information there was you. You could have said from early on "the more information given the worse it becomes, so I'd rather not answer".
Nobody has done anything directed at me that offended me - it's the attitude towards the game. In this and the other games I've played here, there have been players who've had the attitude that their time is more important than mine, and so the game loses its value to me.
I realise this isn't related specifically to the game, but I thought I'd post it here because my leaving affects everyone currently playing directly.
Best of luck to everyone, and I hope my leaving the game doesn't disrupt it too much.
In fact, the tone of a lot of the 'veteran' players around here is incredibly partonising to the newer ones of us.
I apologise if I've offended you, but I too have been offended.
I'm out.
Mod, can I have a replacement please. Thanks for the game
Iso, that's not playing the game at all. I don't know what your IRL situation is, but I work 12 hours a day, come home, and still actually try to make posts. You, and others, post garbage like that and expect to get away with it because you've played here for a long time.
It's not worth my time anymore.
Note to self (but actually everyone): When DRey flips scum Bolly is cleared.
Note 2: Make potential room for Void in the scum trio.
Nice convenient editing of my post. Cutting out bits of my post without putting at least an ellipsis is just foul play as far as I'm concerned. Did you realise I was totally justified in what I said and just decided to cut out the defining bit in the hope nobody noticed?
EWP response: So it's ok for you to call me out on it but not visa versa?
EWP2 response: There's no way it's not at least considered, and only done if they think they can argue their way out of it. Theory debate doesn't particularly help in game though, I read this more of a subtle "hey guys just ignore the new kid" thing you're trying to do.
Can you explain this? I seem to have missed vital Bolly/Void interaction...
I'm not sure Arn would think it was ok to just obviously kill town and get away with it, but I'm still really not understanding how the ability Arn/Void apparently have/had is a pro-town ability.
Your accusation seems a bit more aggressive than the information at hand could justify, Tetris. I'm going to hand out an FoS: Tetris, because the implication of that post just pings me in some way. It's a poorly justified smear campaign (considering Void's behaviour today has given us actual reason to suspect him), which to me seems like an attempt at distancing without increasing risk of Void's lynch.
Also, I think it's blind of you to say Eron didn't do anything scummy yesterday - especially seeing as there was a reasonable amount of focus on him yesterday and you weren't quite as vocal then. The question is whether or not that blindness is intentional...
Also also, I think that even the noobiest noob would know that NKing the person who was most vocally suspicious of them would immediately draw that kind of attention, and would try to avoid it.
This is a fairly good point. Given that I think both you and Eron are scum, though, maybe we've found why ced was killed! This isn't an outright accusation, I'm just saying it's a complete null tell for me. Given that it's you who's stated this, I will add that I think you and Eron are on the same team. I'm just not convinced it's town...
Good point.
Vote: DRey
Hypocrisy city. Also, if you and Eron are aligned, you are where my vote should be. I think you're much more dangerous than Eron as scum, and as town Eron's at least providing more content than you.
***Void v arim***
Void definitely seems to be missing the point here. The implication from him seems to be that pb would only die from Arn/Void's ability if the hammer fell before Void got back to us. As arim has stated, whether Void got back to us or not, the ability had been used, so there's no benefit for scum either way.
If DRey and/or Eron somehow flip scum, there's definitely room for you in my list Void.
As for Gman, this will definitely require a reread. Given that Eron came up with the majority of the evidence, I'm going to have to take it with a grain of salt and make my own judgements based on total reread. Seeing as Eron (and DRey subtly) are implying the ced NK leads to a Gman = scum conclusion, this adds to the motivation behind the NK IMO.
Could you please explain how this power is advantageous in the hands of a towny, then?
Other than that: it seems ced was fairly neutral on the Eron situation, with him having Eron leaning slightly town (at least, searching for posts by ced with the word "Eron" in them seems to have yielded a few recent results indicating this). If Eron is scum, seems like a good choice for lynch seeing as it's hard to determine much re Eron from his death. I'm aware that I'm trying to draw information from something by stating you can't draw information from it, but figured I'd put it out there.
The bolded is essentially the whole point of the game, no?
When I read this post it makes me feel like I'm not expressing my concern about Iso properly, but every time I try I just end up writing what I've already written. However, there are many bigger fish to fry at this stage, so there's no point arguing this at the moment. Expect me to return to this if my suspect list changes.
I don't believe that train of thought would make sense or even occur if you were town, but I guess we're just butting heads on the point.
Interested to hear pinky's take on it....
Iso, are you going to contribute any action or only reaction?
Player X: I am the mafia guys. I love killing townies.
Player Y: I believe Player X just revealed himself as mafia - why else would he say that?
Player X: No I'm town. I said it as town, so that is proof that town have a reason to say it.
Now obviously the actual case isn't as clear-cut, but I don't suppose you could provide real logic as to why town would ever respond like you did?
I'm not going to push it because I think there are much scummier people out there, but I'm not going to forget the incident.
And given that it was you who said the second bit, it's total WIFOM. Your ability, at this stage, has done absolutely nothing. Your revealing it with the argument "I've revealed so there's towny points for me" is it's function so far.
I don't recognise the fact you could easily say it as town. The line of thinking makes no sense as town. That is the whole crux of my argument.
Why focus on me for not going in depth on my town reads? Plenty of people are saying, and have said in every game of mafia ever (possible exagerration) "I'm getting a good town vibe from this person, they're on my town list".
Also, as far as I can see, PoE means I've got a lot of people on my "not scum" list, and a few of them have acted in a way that seems townier than the rest, so they're on my town list.
Also look at the bolded... there's not even a gap in your contradictory statements. Telling me I'm not scumhunting, then saying that my focus is too much on my arguments against my scumspects?
I can't tell if it's the internet talking or not, but the "Ok then" reads incredibly sarcastically (and I think that was your purpose). And yeah, I said I thought it was interesting and worth noting. When did pointing out dodginess without concluding someone is 100% scum stop happening?
My argument is that I think DRey's reasoning is a ploy. Surely it's inherent that I think the accusation of pinky is part of that?
Sure there are only 2 that have only an emoti as a response, but there are several glossy statements that don't mean much, and lots of questioning a player who isn't playing anymore. I also clearly mention the fact that there are actual questions in there too. The emoti-responses weren't my only criticism, so your defense of your buddy is pretty weak.
It could be fishing, it could be genuine inquiry - null tell as far as I'm concerned. The specific case isn't the issue, it's the argument (or the dismissal thereof).
Sure, but the potential existance VTs and one-shots had been discussed at this point. People who think their one-shots could be put to better use than blind faith in Iso but don't want to discuss it because it's deterimental to town should be lynched?
Gut feeling. Seems like a completely unnecessary thing to say.
The reasoning behind use of the ability was my issue, not the reasoning behind thinking you're scum.
If I were scum with that ability, I'd use it exactly how Bolly did. If I were town with that ability, I wouldn't use it day 1 at all. Informing people of its existance nullifies its affect, and secretly reducing somebody's threshold would just create a bunch of wine on future days if somebody got lynched at what was thought to be L-1.
As for future days, I don't know. The more I think about it, the less use I see the ability even having in town's hands. Verging on modgaming (I think that's appropriate use of the terminology), but why would town even be given a power like that?
Flailing was perhaps a poor choice of word. Struggling maybe? You are desperately 'scumhunting', but nearly all your arguments are full of holes. Every bit of logic you've presented is flawed. For my examples, I use the post of yours I'm currently replying to, and previous accusations against you from myself and others.
"Good solid town read on pinky" is fencesitting? I'm surprised you have enough hands to sling so much mad and draw that long bow.
In this instance, yes. From my post 202: Since then, ced's behaviour has done nothing but reinforce my initial thoughts.
Before now, I believed you were scum, and I saw some DRey/Bolly dynamic. 1 + 2 = 3. If there were anything else I'd be a fool to tell you - I'm not going to help you slip below the radar.
So I believe I've found the scum team, am willing to accept that I'm not perfect so wouldn't be surprised if a fourth person is actually one of the scum, and I haven't found much content?
Compare to your mudslinging and poor arguments mainly against either people who are accusing you or the already-weak. Where's your content?
Urghhhh, this is horrible. If you're town (which until now I felt reasonably sure you were), Audinho, you're really becoming a liability.
While I'm certain on the Eron front, an Audinho lynch also makes sense. This isn't fencesitting.
I am openly approving of an Audinho lynch.
However, I only have one vote, so unless a deadline rears it's ugly head I'm leeaving it on Eron.
I don't understand what you're saying here. Bolly's not at risk of lynch, so decreasing his threshold by one doesn't mean anything. Even if he were, decreasing threshold by one this early, AND then telling everybody he'd done so, essentially has no effect except reducing information for town if either of them is lynched. Once again, this is something I've actually already explained...
Long =/= good content. Also, if that was such a breakthrough, why is your vote where it is now, and this is what it took to change it: