Hey, just thought I'd drop my 4 color list here for some critique since there isn't really a thread for this exact deck. It's basically trying to mix the advantages of Grixis Shadow with the advantages of Jund shadow. Snapcaster Mage and Traverse the Ulvenwald in the same deck with thought scour helping to enable them both offers the deck even more toolbox versatility coupled with the same brutal efficiency Death's Shadow is known for.
Keeping Green in the Grixis shell lets me go down to 1 delve threat, replacing the rest with a set of tarmogoyfs that keep our graveyard stocked for turned on Traverses and more flashback options with Snapcaster Mage. The single Tasigur is still a useful inclusion to avoid losing to Surgical Extraction, Snapcaster Surgical Extraction grabbing all our threats, as well as being a threat that can't be fatal pushed.
The downsides to this list are obvious, a less stable mana base (though not as unstable as you'd think) forces us up to 19 lands to fit in all the relevant shocklands with two basics. We also have a slightly worse burn/8 whack matchup as we have less fine control over our life total due to needing to fetch aggressively simply to cast all of our spells. Sure, we do that most of the time anyway, but with burn you want to very carefully manipulate your life total to allow yourself to battle rage them out before they can kill you, mitigating their kill potential with discard spells and in this list stubborn denial. Depending on their hand and my own sometimes I simply don't have the fine control necessary as often as the lists that are much more three color than four. We also miss out on any lilianas mostly due to a lack of room and due to double black not always being a given here.
Let me know what you think of my greedy list, which has top 8'd my last two fnms, as well as a GPT and a Modern Monday at my LGS.
I've been kind of flitting between Grixis and Jund Shadow as well. I've also been looking into a 4 color list similar to yours, although I still haven't tried it at FNM. Just a few comments:
I think the problem with your list is inconsistency. I don't like having 2 Bauble and 3 Street Wraith. Those cards are what give DS decks such powerful consistency and I feel like those should be the last to be shaved. I also don't think that Tasigur is necessary, given that Goyf is almost always bigger in DSJ. The MD Terminate is kind of sketchy too but that could be a meta call. I'm also not sure about committing 4 slots to Thought Scour. It has some great synergy with Snapcaster but I'd rather see a 4th Traverse, 2nd K-Command, Lili, over them.
In my mind, an ideal list would be something like a DSJ splashing Blue purely for Snapcaster. Snapcaster really amps up the grind level by letting you recast all the extremely cheap powerful removal/discard/Traverse spells. The real question is whether we'd rather just have Lili and white SB cards. Blue doesn't really add anything in the sideboard- I'd rather have Lili over Staticaster most of the time and I honestly can't think of anything else useful. On the other hand, White enables you to tutor for Ranger of Eos and silver bullet cards like Canonist/Kataki as well as providing Lingering Souls for grind power.
1. Did you really upload a pdf?
2. That list is all over the place, formatting is the worst.
3. Is that the list from Australia?
Edit: holy ***** just saw the top 8 list and they posted all the decklists as pdfs w/ the lists sorted by color.
Haha don't worry I'd never go through the effort of uploading a PDF for a quick post on a Magic the Gathering forum The only difference between Wilson's and Zhou's maindecks are the two Mana Leaks Zhou runs. I'm a bit more partial to Negate since they help protect Queller better than Leak.
he spends the whole 1:49 reading off my gy and bull*****ing about his options.
I would definitely have called a judge here. Nearly two minutes deciding blocks is definitely slow play.
The judge was sitting right next to him the whole time. I'm not even going to start on the long list of things wrong with that judge.
@encendi - after further thought, I've decided to try out an OG Gideon instead. Only seen it once so far when testing against affinity, but it instantly stabilized the game.
I don't know that I agree with Delver though, since we're only running around 23 spells. Seems about 5 spells too low to support him. There could be a build that drops Resto and some number of snaps/clique for him though.
Edit: also pretty sure I'll be running a second blessed Alliance mb too.
I feel like going up in mana cost is not what our deck wants to be doing. I agree that Delver is not the best card for the deck but I see some potential in running Young Pyromancer or even Thing in the Ice in place of Blade Splicer.
Went 3-2 and made the cut into top 4 (there were only 11 people).
R1 Burn - Holy ***** is this an easy matchup. lol. Win 2-0
R2 Eldrazi Death + Taxes - Very tough matchup, lost 2-1.
G3 he went T3 Though Knot, T4 Thought-Knot, T5 Reality Smasher. Ban Temple.
R3 UWR Control w/ TiTi + AV, friend of mine - Win 2-0
Typical UWR grindy mirror match. I've played him hundreds of times, this feels in my favor overall though
R4 Abzan Chord + Eldritch Evolution - Lose 1-0
G1 I lost the grind, g2 we went to time. 1:50 before the round goes to time I announce the time left and move straight to attacks because I had stabilized and knew i'd need that extra turn to win. At that point I knew he had only a seige rhino in hand and the blocks were obvious. he spends the whole 1:49 reading off my gy and bull*****ing about his options. then blocks immediately after the timer ends. This round should've been an overall draw.
R5 Burn again. 2-1 win.
G2 I made the mistake of tapping out at my end step to spell queller an Atarka's Command. Goblin guide > searing blaze > command + pump put me at 3 and there was no coming back.
After that I squeaked out top 4 and we split prizes.
Going forward, I'm swapping the MB EE for another resto, and debating on swapping the 3rd helix for something else. SB changes are going to be:
-1 Anger
-1 EE
-1 Celestial Purge
+1 Wear//Tear
+1 Runed Halo (when I can find one)
+1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
Thoughts on a MB Nahiri (over the 3rd resto)? It's a great value PW, and searching up Snapcaster w/ her ult is pretty darn good. She's also great in that g1 she can scare your opponent into thinking you have emrakul in the deck, and perhaps SB in bad slots against us.
I've been thinking back and forth about cutting the 3rd Resto so I couldn't dream of running a Nahiri. It feels like most of my games are won off of removal, Queller, and Clique. The games where Resto gets in are usually games that I've won already or Midrange matchups. I toyed with the idea of running a Gideon, Ally of Zendikar in the main, but I feel like not only does he go against the deck's flash playstyle but he is only good against the BGx and Control matchups.
I've also been thinking a lot about Blade Splicer. I never feel good casting this gal. I know in theory she's good because she provides value with Resto but I've never had that happen. Most of the benefit is in the 3/3 Golem and that gets Bolted almost every time I play her.
I'm actually a bit envious of how low to the ground the Grixis Delver decks are. I find that what I'm missing is an early clock vs a lot of decks like Tron and Ad Nauseam. I'm so hesitant to play anything on 3 against those decks since I want to be holding up countermagic.
Something I've been thinking about is a creature suite like this:
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Spell Queller
2 Young Pyromancer
2 Vendillion Clique
2 Restoration Angel : maybe -1 Resto +1 Young Pyromancer?
I think both are potentially viable, however, I think that UWR Delver is on the whole worse than Grixis Delver- they have discard, Collective Brutality, and Kolaghan's Command, while we have Helix and Spell Queller. On the other hand, Young Pyromancer in place of Blade Splicer could also be really good. She applies a lot of pressure very quickly where it's needed and creates chump blockers for defense as well. She also occupies a spot on the curve that doesn't compete with Spell Queller and Clique. I've just been very unimpressed with Blade Splicer and Geist seems so bad on defense in so many matchups.
I agree with you that Avacyn is probably a little too clunky at 5 mana and double white. Queller and Geist really shine against Ad Nauseam. Although Spell Queller fails to hit Ad Nauseam, it does hit all the setup cards and cantrips which slows them down considerably.
U/B Faeries is a fairly even matchup, and you're right about Bitterblossom being the key card in the matchup. If it does resolve against you, then you have to find spots where you can pick off a lone faerie blocker or Cryptic their team so you can get a hit in with Geist or Colonnade. Your best path to victory will often be chaining a few burn spells.
During the previous weeks I made lots of misplays that cost me games and matches but I'm getting the hang of it now and I love it.
Decks like these require a few reps and knowledge of your opponents decks before you start seeing consistent success. It's a fun way to play for sure though!
I apologize for how poorly my post was written since it was nearly 2 am and I was dead tired. I'm thinking about switching out a Restoration Angel for something like an Aven Mindcensor or possibly the Gideon, Ally of Zendikar that Steve Wilson ran.
I'm not sure about EE and Blessed Alliance in the main but I'm sure Steve was teching against something. I took my list to Monday Night Modern at my LGS. Turnout was quite good tonight and I ended up going 3-1, with the fourth match person having to leave to catch his bus unfortunately.
Unfortunately the list is a little suboptimal as some of my cards are in the mail (I was upgrading some versions of the same card) so I was missing 2 Steam Vents and had to borrow a Hallowed Fountain and Sacred Foundry. In addition, the Eiganjo castle was probably not necessary and should have been a Sulfur Falls. I was also missing a Spell Snare which I will be taking out Logic Knot for when it arrives. I probably will switch out Timely in the board once I get my hands on some Blessed Alliances.
Round 1 vs UB Faeries:
Game 1 starts with me on a mull to 6 on the draw. I keep a decent hand of Clique, UW Lands, and Helix/Bolt and he slams a Turn 2 Bitterblossom that lets him run away with the game, turning on his Spellstutter Sprites, and crushes me handily with Cryptic Command up for my burn spells that I don't even get to cast until turn 5 due to being mana screwed.
Game 2 I board in Dispel, Verdict, and Staticaster (forgot Wear//Tear because I'm dumb) and board out Cliques and Cryptics. My opponent mulls to 4 and I keep a very sketchy 7 that I should have mulled (5 lands, Snapcaster, and Helix). He leads off with Inquisition, taking my Snapcaster and lands a Bitterblossom Turn 2 as I proceed to draw lands for the rest of the game.
The matchup seems pretty even as long as you keep Bitterblossom off the board. That card is a beating and made me wish I had 2 Spell Snares in my deck.
0-1
Round 2 vs Ad Nauseam:
I was playing against a newer player in this round so he made a few sketchy keeps.
Game 1 I keep a hand full of Burn spells not knowing what he was on and I don't get any creatures except for a single Resto, which just isn't enough to get me there before he combos out with a non-Lotus Bloom hand.
Game 2 I board in Dispel, 2 Stony Silence, and Wear//Tear and board out my Paths. Before the game I convince my opponent that I'm boarding in Pithing Needle and he boards in Echoing Truth. I keep a hand with 2 lands, some Burn, a Resto, and a Stony Silence. I was really digging for Geist in this matchup so if it wasn't for the Stony Silence I would have shipped it. My opponent leads off with a Leyline of Sanctity, which is kind of annoying but largely useless I feel, and no Lotus Bloom. I draw into Spell Queller and some counterspells and counter his plays while advancing my board. Eventually I top deck a Cryptic and cast it the turn before he gets enough mana to combo, bouncing the Leyline back to hand and enabling me to bolt and finish him off.
Game 3 I keep a decent hand with Geist, Queller, and Burn. My opponent once again starts off with 2 Leylines and suspends 2 Lotus Bloom Turn 1 into a Serum Visions. Wow. I lead off with a Colonnade and next turn I play an Island and cast 2 Serum Visions, finding a Dispel and a Negate. On turn 3 I draw a Clique, and on Turn 4 I misplay and cast it with Dispel backup, reasoning if I wait he will draw into Pact of Negations and he would eventually overwhelm my defenses so I wanted to tear apart his hand. I forget that he has a Leyline in play but fortunately he forgets too and after Slaughter Pacting my Clique reveals his hand, which has nothing but a Simian Spirit Guide, an Angel's Grace, and Land. I let him keep it all and start beating him down next turn with Geist and Dispel backup. From then I have 2 Negates and a Dispel in my hand and 5 mana and I just can't lose even though he finds the combo and a Pact.
The matchup is pretty rough but Geist really shines here if they don't have the god opener. I really wish I had Counterflux in my sideboard for this matchup.
1-1
Round 3 vs Jund:
Game 1 I mull to 6 on the play and keep a rough hand with 2 white sources and an island with path, Burn, Logic Knot and Cryptic. My opponent starts with a fetch and next turn into Grim Flayer while I get stuck on 2 Blue Sources and no red. He Thoughtseizes me taking my Logic Knot and next turn casts a Liliana and keeps landing threats while keeping me empty handed. I had a chance to come back in the game at one point when I drew a Snapcaster, but I didn't have the red mana to finish off Liliana.
Game 2 I board in 2 Blade Splicer, 2 Celestial Purge, and a Supreme Verdict and board out 2 Geist, Logic Knot, and 2 Helixes. Splicer was a super MVP this game. I kept a hand with Splicer, My opponent plays a Grim Flayer T2 and then I play Splicer T3. He minuses Lili and I sac the 1/1 Blade Splicer and my Token prevents his Grim Flayer from attacking. Next turn I swing in and he lets the Lilana die instead of chumping with Flayer. Next turn he tries to connect with Flayer but I path him and he tries to play a Bob, which gets bolted. The rest of the game I manage to control his threats and flash in some fliers and eventually he kills himself with the trigger from another Bob he played after I swing in with the team and Colonnade.
Game 3 I keep an insane hand with Queller, Path, Clique, and 2 Celestial Purge. My opponent again has Turn 2 Flayer. Turn 3 he resolves a Liliana (a misplay on his part as he later told me, since he had a Thoughtseize and another Flayer in hand and should have led with that). He pluses Liliana and I pitch a land, after which I Celestial Purge the Liliana. He plays a Bob the next turn which gets pathed and then he's stuck in top deck mode soon after as I remove his creatures. He ends up getting flooded and his last relevant card was a bolt that got Spell Quellered (he's really good when your opponent is top decking).
I've been pretty scared of Jund ever since I started playing Modern but I really enjoyed the matchup with this deck. I'll be getting Ancestral Visions in the mail along with the rest of my cards so I think the matchup can only get better. Blade Splicer was insane against them and with all the burn and fliers in the deck it's easy to race them.
2-1
Round 4 vs BW Tokens:
My opponent scoops to me after we agree to split for packs since he had to catch the bus. I didn't want to be a douche by making him play it out.
3-1 '
This is the first time I actually got prizes with this deck! During the previous weeks I made lots of misplays that cost me games and matches but I'm getting the hang of it now and I love it. I'm still not sold on Geist or Blade Splicer; Geist was amazing vs Ad Nauseam and Splicer was awesome vs Jund. I guess I'll just have to keep trying them out every week and see what's best. I'm leaning towards Splicer being slightly better though. I originally thought Archangel Avacyn would be a nice addition to the deck in place of Restoration Angel, but honestly Angel felt clunky at 4 mana a lot of the time even though she was great and I can't imagine how difficult it would be to cast Avacyn reliably.
The Lantern player told me that Geist is probably Jeskai's best chance and I tend to agree here. Geist is also good against the new flavor of Tron (GW).
This is what has me leaning towards bringing 2 Geist back in and also finding room for a Stony Silence in the SB. I have no idea what to expect at the RPTQ, but I'd like to not get blown out by Tron if I can help it. I feel like I'm sometimes overloaded on Spell Queller at the full set of 4, but when it's good, it's REAL good.
Mana Leak functions as a catch-all, so I'm a bit reluctant to get rid of them. How effective did you find Blade Splicer? Was it able to turn games around, or was it more or less just fine?
I agree with your assessment of Ghost Quarter over Lighthouse, but I'd feel better about the 3rd island if I didn't have the 3 Lightning Helix. It's a card I could see cutting to two.
Honestly I never feel overloaded on Spell Queller. The card is insane in multiples, since if the first one sticks the second one stops the opponent from peeling a removal spell off the top of their library. It's been pretty bonkers against linear decks that have trouble dealing with it (Infect/Affinity) and actually kinda okay even against Jeskai Nahiri since I have so many threats.
Honestly I've had no regrets about taking out my Mana Leaks and Remands for Negate. I've found that in most matchups I care most about non-creature spells (Plating, Nahiri, Through the Breach, Lili, etc.) and in the matchups I care most about creature spells (Eldrazi/Merfolk) they have Cavern anyways. I think it's a pretty solid plan to counter the really offensive non-creature spells with Negate and Bolt/Helix/Path the creatures that the opponent plays. I actually had one match against Jund where my opponent passed for several turns trying to get enough land to pay for a leak and resolve a spell and that was pretty awesome.
I only started running the Blade Splicer list this week but so far it's been pretty average. I only saw it against Jeskai control and Tron. Against Jeskai it ate two bolts so that was good and against Tron it was an OK clock, but he drew a path; again, Geist would have been way better here. This week's meta was kinda weird- I faced Lantern, Affinity, Tron, and Jeskai- there's usually more creature aggro and midrange so I'm thinking it probably shines there.
I have kind of a love hate relationship with Lightning Helix. It just feels like a really bad bolt most times I've casted it, but I've found that's what I've needed those times as well. I don't really see myself cutting it down to 2 since I like having that density of Burn and removal spells.
I will be playing in an RPTQ on 12/4, and I'll most likely be piloting a UWR Flash deck (something similar to what I won a PPTQ with). I feel pretty comfortable with the bulk of the list, but there are a few flex cards and sideboard options I'm unsure about. Here's the list as it's currently configured:
I feel pretty comfortable with the spell configuration though Secure the Wastes occupies a flex spot. One possibility is returning to some number of Geist of Saint Traft (-Secure, -Queller) as this card is very good against Grixis and could help against Tron (which I normally just hope to fade). I've also seen Blade Splicer as a possibility, and that would shore up against the attrition decks. Some other possibilities instead of Secure include Archangel Avacyn, Sphinx's Revelation, or a third Cryptic. Of the decks I've personally played against locally, I've found the Bant Eldrazi Matchup to be particularly difficult.
I run a very similar list with +1 Resto, +1 Clique, +2 Negate, +2 Blade Splicer, -2 Electrolyze, -Mana Leaks and Remands (basically the Boggemes List that placed 11th at the SCG Columbus Open). I've been thinking a lot about subbing a Resto for an Archangel Avacyn. I think that reduces the impact on fast matchups (where Resto is pretty bad anyways) but could seriously improve the midrange matchups. I think Avacyn could really improve the Bant Eldrazi matchup since she can ambush a TKS or team up with a small creature to block a Reality Smasher.
This week I actually lost to both Tron and Lantern after taking out my Stony Silences and Crumble to Dusts for Angers and more Rest in Peaces... I can say that Lantern is pretty rough without the Stony Silences and I think that it's a tough matchup regardless since they board in Welding Jars (deals with Shatter effects) and have discard and Abrupt Decay to deal with Stony Silence. The Lantern player told me that Geist is probably Jeskai's best chance and I tend to agree here. Geist is also good against the new flavor of Tron (GW).
I like Blade Splicer because it blocks Etched Champion and has synergy with Resto. I will probably switch it out for Geist next week since I feel like the Affinity matchup is good enough without it and because all the Tron players at my LGS switched to GW. I like having Ghost Quarter over Lighthouse and the 4th Colonnade. GQ is really nice against those Infect hands where they have a nut draw (i.e. the only hands that can beat Jeskai) and gives you a small fighting chance against Tron G1 and Bant Eldrazi. I don't like Lighthouse too much since it doesn't do anything in fast matchups and after cutting the Remands/Leaks for Negate I feel like my answers are general enough for most situations so the looting is only really great against Jeskai/Grixis where you're both sitting there with full hands for much of the game. I like having 3 Colonnades which I'm sure a lot of people will disagree with- but Colonnade is definitely the plan B for this deck and I'd rather have untapped mana.
Also speaking about mana, I like running 3 Islands since you potentially have Cryptic mana through a Blood Moon.
I was not suggesting we add her to our deck. Nahiri is not optimal in midrange. What I was asking is are we playing a sub optimal version of jeskai? It's the same question blue moon had to ask while twin was legal.
Now I am not saying midrange is worse. All I'm doing is asking the question. What are doing better than nahiri control?
GreatNate pointed out that nahiri doesn't shore up our bad matchups like tron. And he noted that we have a good matchup against the control jeskai.
Does Nahiri improve any split matchups we have? I don't think it does significantly.
I'm just trying to ask the important question with the recent success of a deck very similar to ours (both run 4 bolt, 4 helix, 4 snapcaster, 4 path, 4-6 counters, 1+ electrolyze, and pretty much the same lands).
The question that's important to ask is not so much whether or not Nahiri improves split matchups, but whether Control is better positioned than Midrange in the Jeskai colors. I think Nahiri serves a similar function to Geist in that she is a difficult to interact with 3 turn clock.
Since both Geist and Nahiri grant free wins on an empty board, I question whether having a bunch of midrange threats like Resto/additional Cliques/Avacyn/T-maw/etc. is better than board wipes and additional removal/counters.
Personally, the main draw of midrange was that I could quickly finish opponents when I gained an advantage. Blue in Modern has a lot of narrow imperfect answers and with the old Jeskai Control you had no guarantee you would draw the right ones. For example, if you stabilized at 6 life vs. Burn when they were topdecking, you were potentially 2 crummy draws from being dead. Geist enables you to finish off Burn quickly before they can draw what they needed to kill you. Nahiri now serves a similar function in the Control lists, with of course the differences being
1. Nahiri synergizes less with Burn and requires the ult to kill, unlike Geist, who often only needs to swing in once to let Burn/flyers take care of the rest.
2. Geist is a one turn faster clock if you are dropping both cards on curve, important against Combo and Tron.
3. Having Nahiri on your board is much more useful than a Geist that is bricked by a Kitchen Finks or something.
I felt that the Jeskai Midrange deck, when it wasn't being a beast and running over opponents with Geist, often transformed into a crummier Jeskai control once Geist got bricked on the ground or you had a more reactive draw.
I've decided to switch over because I think the balance has tipped- Control now gets most of the free wins Geist would have gotten you but with the benefit of going all in on a Control strategy rather than having it as a plan B.
Went 6-2 at Ovinospring in Milan, Italy. Didn't make it to the top 16 because of rating. Ended 25th out of 225 players. It was an exciting day. I was really close to do something pretty big here: a top 8 at a relevant tournament with a Geist deck. I'm pretty pumped up: it looks like the new meta is good for Geist. I've been waiting this moment for quite some time, I love this deck, but in the last couple of years it was just unfit to the meta. I'll post a report soon, I'll just anticipate that the two losses were both at the hands of the same deck and I need to figure something out to improve that MU. All the 6 wins were to different archetypes so the deck felt pretty flexible also thanks to some good sideboard choices (in two of my six wins I lost game 1 but was able to reverse the situation after sideboarding).
So I think the 2 Avacyn with 22 lands is a bit much, even with the cantrips. I know there was a discussion on the previous page and I read it all, but I think that the top end is just a little bit too hard with 2 Avacyn. I'm wondering if you ever ran into problems during the tournament, assuming you ran this list.
I also ran 2 Mana Leaks instead of Remands but I think with 22 lands (which I am now definitely following) 4 Remand has to be correct.
I disagree a bit on 4 Colonnades because I don't like too many lands that come into play tapped in an aggressive list. I can see the argument for running 4 since by the time Colonnades become relevant you want to be drawing as many as possible, but I'm going to try a Seachrome Coast in its place for now.
The Castle I am considering picking up but I was wondering about how good it has been for you and why you weren't running the second Steam Vents. I've run into problems getting my colors during playtesting.
P.S. I wish Avacyn was only $20... I should've preordered her...
Anyone try running Kiki-Jiki in the deck? It kills with Resto Angel and gets value with Snapcaster and Clique. I run Thundermaw too so it helps swing for a huge amount as well.
Feels very powerful right now. I really like the sideboard currently. I'm finally about what I want to sideboard to in the BGx mirrors.
I don't have much to add other than I think running just 22 lands in this deck is very, very greedy. Understandable when you're trying to combo most of the time but mostly unreasonable if you're trying to curve out with good stuff. Missing land drops 1-4 can kill you pretty easily in Modern.
I have a few questions about your list.
1. Why the 2 Darkslicks? Are they against Burn/Choke?
2. Why only 1 Cryptic Command? Is it because you board in Blood Moon? Do you ever miss the second one against GBx or other decks?
3. I'm also curious about the role of Vandalblast, Dreadbore, Duress, and Ashiok. It seems like running a second K-Command would be better than Vandalblast. Dreadbore is interesting for sure- it's like a Roast that hits Lili. Duress I guess is good against Bloom. Not sure what Ashiok is good against.
@ Encendi
K-Command is very strong indeed. I think if I would run Grixis I would run 1 in the MD and probably a 2nd one in the SB. Yesterday I lost a mirror match against Grixis Twin due to Command, Snapcaster Command, while I drew lands 11-13 and couldnt keep up at that point. Its better than Electrolyze in gainig CA in the mirror. In an other Game I already had some Goyfs on the board and command was not relevant, as the clock+counterbackup was to quick to let him back in the game. So imo Grixis is stronger in the Grind due to Tasigur and K-Command while RUG is more aggressive and can Play a stronger Tempo Game. You have to pick your favorite for yourselve and see what works the best for you or which playstyle fits your needs. I think both decks are viable and imo stronger than straight UR right now. Both can win the Mirror Match and have some Options against Jund and Delver, which is huge.
I guess the question is how I see games playing out. So far I like RUG against Burn, but honestly after reading your comments and thinking about it I see Grixis being better overall since I'm not sure RUG can execute the tempo game that well with only 4 Goyfs.
Also like you said, Goyf also seems like a weak late game topdeck; Tasigur at the very least can grind you additional cards and they both generally are the same P/T. The rest of the cards really push Grixis over the top.
I guess in summary I see the focuses like this:
RUG -> Half Tempo half Combo deck that seems a little inconsistent on the Tempo side
Grixis -> Primarily a Combo deck that can grind the late game
I think I'm leaning towards playing Grixis and just putting put a bunch of Burn hate in the SB and hoping to dodge it. It is a significant portion of my meta but I guess I like the feeling of being able to topdeck K-Command and grab a Snapcaster too much. Still, I'll try a few more games on Cockatrice before fully committing.
I've been kind of flitting between Grixis and Jund Shadow as well. I've also been looking into a 4 color list similar to yours, although I still haven't tried it at FNM. Just a few comments:
I think the problem with your list is inconsistency. I don't like having 2 Bauble and 3 Street Wraith. Those cards are what give DS decks such powerful consistency and I feel like those should be the last to be shaved. I also don't think that Tasigur is necessary, given that Goyf is almost always bigger in DSJ. The MD Terminate is kind of sketchy too but that could be a meta call. I'm also not sure about committing 4 slots to Thought Scour. It has some great synergy with Snapcaster but I'd rather see a 4th Traverse, 2nd K-Command, Lili, over them.
In my mind, an ideal list would be something like a DSJ splashing Blue purely for Snapcaster. Snapcaster really amps up the grind level by letting you recast all the extremely cheap powerful removal/discard/Traverse spells. The real question is whether we'd rather just have Lili and white SB cards. Blue doesn't really add anything in the sideboard- I'd rather have Lili over Staticaster most of the time and I honestly can't think of anything else useful. On the other hand, White enables you to tutor for Ranger of Eos and silver bullet cards like Canonist/Kataki as well as providing Lingering Souls for grind power.
Haha don't worry I'd never go through the effort of uploading a PDF for a quick post on a Magic the Gathering forum
I feel like going up in mana cost is not what our deck wants to be doing. I agree that Delver is not the best card for the deck but I see some potential in running Young Pyromancer or even Thing in the Ice in place of Blade Splicer.
I've been thinking back and forth about cutting the 3rd Resto so I couldn't dream of running a Nahiri. It feels like most of my games are won off of removal, Queller, and Clique. The games where Resto gets in are usually games that I've won already or Midrange matchups. I toyed with the idea of running a Gideon, Ally of Zendikar in the main, but I feel like not only does he go against the deck's flash playstyle but he is only good against the BGx and Control matchups.
I've also been thinking a lot about Blade Splicer. I never feel good casting this gal. I know in theory she's good because she provides value with Resto but I've never had that happen. Most of the benefit is in the 3/3 Golem and that gets Bolted almost every time I play her.
I'm actually a bit envious of how low to the ground the Grixis Delver decks are. I find that what I'm missing is an early clock vs a lot of decks like Tron and Ad Nauseam. I'm so hesitant to play anything on 3 against those decks since I want to be holding up countermagic.
Something I've been thinking about is a creature suite like this:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Spell Queller
2 Vendillion Clique
1 Restoration Angel
Or a creature suite like this:
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Spell Queller
2 Young Pyromancer
2 Vendillion Clique
2 Restoration Angel : maybe -1 Resto +1 Young Pyromancer?
I think both are potentially viable, however, I think that UWR Delver is on the whole worse than Grixis Delver- they have discard, Collective Brutality, and Kolaghan's Command, while we have Helix and Spell Queller. On the other hand, Young Pyromancer in place of Blade Splicer could also be really good. She applies a lot of pressure very quickly where it's needed and creates chump blockers for defense as well. She also occupies a spot on the curve that doesn't compete with Spell Queller and Clique. I've just been very unimpressed with Blade Splicer and Geist seems so bad on defense in so many matchups.
I apologize for how poorly my post was written since it was nearly 2 am and I was dead tired. I'm thinking about switching out a Restoration Angel for something like an Aven Mindcensor or possibly the Gideon, Ally of Zendikar that Steve Wilson ran.
Apparently the deck made top 8 at the SCG Open Modern Classic Atlanta so I think the deck definitely has legs.
Jeskai Flash by Steve Wilson
I'm not sure about EE and Blessed Alliance in the main but I'm sure Steve was teching against something. I took my list to Monday Night Modern at my LGS. Turnout was quite good tonight and I ended up going 3-1, with the fourth match person having to leave to catch his bus unfortunately.
3 Celestial Colonnade
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Sacred Foundry
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Flooded Strand
1 Arid Mesa
2 Glacial Fortress
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Eiganjo Castle
3 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plain
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Spell Queller
3 Restoration Angel
Spells 21
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
4 Serum Visions
3 Lightning Helix
1 Spell Snare
1 Logic Knot
2 Negate
2 Cryptic Command
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Celestial Purge
1 Anger of the Gods
2 Rest in Peace
1 Dispel
1 Wear // Tear
1 Timely Reinforcements
2 Stony Silence
2 Blade Splicer
2 Izzet Staticaster
Unfortunately the list is a little suboptimal as some of my cards are in the mail (I was upgrading some versions of the same card) so I was missing 2 Steam Vents and had to borrow a Hallowed Fountain and Sacred Foundry. In addition, the Eiganjo castle was probably not necessary and should have been a Sulfur Falls. I was also missing a Spell Snare which I will be taking out Logic Knot for when it arrives. I probably will switch out Timely in the board once I get my hands on some Blessed Alliances.
Round 1 vs UB Faeries:
Game 1 starts with me on a mull to 6 on the draw. I keep a decent hand of Clique, UW Lands, and Helix/Bolt and he slams a Turn 2 Bitterblossom that lets him run away with the game, turning on his Spellstutter Sprites, and crushes me handily with Cryptic Command up for my burn spells that I don't even get to cast until turn 5 due to being mana screwed.
Game 2 I board in Dispel, Verdict, and Staticaster (forgot Wear//Tear because I'm dumb) and board out Cliques and Cryptics. My opponent mulls to 4 and I keep a very sketchy 7 that I should have mulled (5 lands, Snapcaster, and Helix). He leads off with Inquisition, taking my Snapcaster and lands a Bitterblossom Turn 2 as I proceed to draw lands for the rest of the game.
The matchup seems pretty even as long as you keep Bitterblossom off the board. That card is a beating and made me wish I had 2 Spell Snares in my deck.
0-1
Round 2 vs Ad Nauseam:
I was playing against a newer player in this round so he made a few sketchy keeps.
Game 1 I keep a hand full of Burn spells not knowing what he was on and I don't get any creatures except for a single Resto, which just isn't enough to get me there before he combos out with a non-Lotus Bloom hand.
Game 2 I board in Dispel, 2 Stony Silence, and Wear//Tear and board out my Paths. Before the game I convince my opponent that I'm boarding in Pithing Needle and he boards in Echoing Truth. I keep a hand with 2 lands, some Burn, a Resto, and a Stony Silence. I was really digging for Geist in this matchup so if it wasn't for the Stony Silence I would have shipped it. My opponent leads off with a Leyline of Sanctity, which is kind of annoying but largely useless I feel, and no Lotus Bloom. I draw into Spell Queller and some counterspells and counter his plays while advancing my board. Eventually I top deck a Cryptic and cast it the turn before he gets enough mana to combo, bouncing the Leyline back to hand and enabling me to bolt and finish him off.
Game 3 I keep a decent hand with Geist, Queller, and Burn. My opponent once again starts off with 2 Leylines and suspends 2 Lotus Bloom Turn 1 into a Serum Visions. Wow. I lead off with a Colonnade and next turn I play an Island and cast 2 Serum Visions, finding a Dispel and a Negate. On turn 3 I draw a Clique, and on Turn 4 I misplay and cast it with Dispel backup, reasoning if I wait he will draw into Pact of Negations and he would eventually overwhelm my defenses so I wanted to tear apart his hand. I forget that he has a Leyline in play but fortunately he forgets too and after Slaughter Pacting my Clique reveals his hand, which has nothing but a Simian Spirit Guide, an Angel's Grace, and Land. I let him keep it all and start beating him down next turn with Geist and Dispel backup. From then I have 2 Negates and a Dispel in my hand and 5 mana and I just can't lose even though he finds the combo and a Pact.
The matchup is pretty rough but Geist really shines here if they don't have the god opener. I really wish I had Counterflux in my sideboard for this matchup.
1-1
Round 3 vs Jund:
Game 1 I mull to 6 on the play and keep a rough hand with 2 white sources and an island with path, Burn, Logic Knot and Cryptic. My opponent starts with a fetch and next turn into Grim Flayer while I get stuck on 2 Blue Sources and no red. He Thoughtseizes me taking my Logic Knot and next turn casts a Liliana and keeps landing threats while keeping me empty handed. I had a chance to come back in the game at one point when I drew a Snapcaster, but I didn't have the red mana to finish off Liliana.
Game 2 I board in 2 Blade Splicer, 2 Celestial Purge, and a Supreme Verdict and board out 2 Geist, Logic Knot, and 2 Helixes. Splicer was a super MVP this game. I kept a hand with Splicer, My opponent plays a Grim Flayer T2 and then I play Splicer T3. He minuses Lili and I sac the 1/1 Blade Splicer and my Token prevents his Grim Flayer from attacking. Next turn I swing in and he lets the Lilana die instead of chumping with Flayer. Next turn he tries to connect with Flayer but I path him and he tries to play a Bob, which gets bolted. The rest of the game I manage to control his threats and flash in some fliers and eventually he kills himself with the trigger from another Bob he played after I swing in with the team and Colonnade.
Game 3 I keep an insane hand with Queller, Path, Clique, and 2 Celestial Purge. My opponent again has Turn 2 Flayer. Turn 3 he resolves a Liliana (a misplay on his part as he later told me, since he had a Thoughtseize and another Flayer in hand and should have led with that). He pluses Liliana and I pitch a land, after which I Celestial Purge the Liliana. He plays a Bob the next turn which gets pathed and then he's stuck in top deck mode soon after as I remove his creatures. He ends up getting flooded and his last relevant card was a bolt that got Spell Quellered (he's really good when your opponent is top decking).
I've been pretty scared of Jund ever since I started playing Modern but I really enjoyed the matchup with this deck. I'll be getting Ancestral Visions in the mail along with the rest of my cards so I think the matchup can only get better. Blade Splicer was insane against them and with all the burn and fliers in the deck it's easy to race them.
2-1
Round 4 vs BW Tokens:
My opponent scoops to me after we agree to split for packs since he had to catch the bus. I didn't want to be a douche by making him play it out.
3-1 '
This is the first time I actually got prizes with this deck! During the previous weeks I made lots of misplays that cost me games and matches but I'm getting the hang of it now and I love it. I'm still not sold on Geist or Blade Splicer; Geist was amazing vs Ad Nauseam and Splicer was awesome vs Jund. I guess I'll just have to keep trying them out every week and see what's best. I'm leaning towards Splicer being slightly better though. I originally thought Archangel Avacyn would be a nice addition to the deck in place of Restoration Angel, but honestly Angel felt clunky at 4 mana a lot of the time even though she was great and I can't imagine how difficult it would be to cast Avacyn reliably.
Honestly I never feel overloaded on Spell Queller. The card is insane in multiples, since if the first one sticks the second one stops the opponent from peeling a removal spell off the top of their library. It's been pretty bonkers against linear decks that have trouble dealing with it (Infect/Affinity) and actually kinda okay even against Jeskai Nahiri since I have so many threats.
Honestly I've had no regrets about taking out my Mana Leaks and Remands for Negate. I've found that in most matchups I care most about non-creature spells (Plating, Nahiri, Through the Breach, Lili, etc.) and in the matchups I care most about creature spells (Eldrazi/Merfolk) they have Cavern anyways. I think it's a pretty solid plan to counter the really offensive non-creature spells with Negate and Bolt/Helix/Path the creatures that the opponent plays. I actually had one match against Jund where my opponent passed for several turns trying to get enough land to pay for a leak and resolve a spell and that was pretty awesome.
I only started running the Blade Splicer list this week but so far it's been pretty average. I only saw it against Jeskai control and Tron. Against Jeskai it ate two bolts so that was good and against Tron it was an OK clock, but he drew a path; again, Geist would have been way better here. This week's meta was kinda weird- I faced Lantern, Affinity, Tron, and Jeskai- there's usually more creature aggro and midrange so I'm thinking it probably shines there.
I have kind of a love hate relationship with Lightning Helix. It just feels like a really bad bolt most times I've casted it, but I've found that's what I've needed those times as well. I don't really see myself cutting it down to 2 since I like having that density of Burn and removal spells.
I run a very similar list with +1 Resto, +1 Clique, +2 Negate, +2 Blade Splicer, -2 Electrolyze, -Mana Leaks and Remands (basically the Boggemes List that placed 11th at the SCG Columbus Open). I've been thinking a lot about subbing a Resto for an Archangel Avacyn. I think that reduces the impact on fast matchups (where Resto is pretty bad anyways) but could seriously improve the midrange matchups. I think Avacyn could really improve the Bant Eldrazi matchup since she can ambush a TKS or team up with a small creature to block a Reality Smasher.
This week I actually lost to both Tron and Lantern after taking out my Stony Silences and Crumble to Dusts for Angers and more Rest in Peaces... I can say that Lantern is pretty rough without the Stony Silences and I think that it's a tough matchup regardless since they board in Welding Jars (deals with Shatter effects) and have discard and Abrupt Decay to deal with Stony Silence. The Lantern player told me that Geist is probably Jeskai's best chance and I tend to agree here. Geist is also good against the new flavor of Tron (GW).
I like Blade Splicer because it blocks Etched Champion and has synergy with Resto. I will probably switch it out for Geist next week since I feel like the Affinity matchup is good enough without it and because all the Tron players at my LGS switched to GW. I like having Ghost Quarter over Lighthouse and the 4th Colonnade. GQ is really nice against those Infect hands where they have a nut draw (i.e. the only hands that can beat Jeskai) and gives you a small fighting chance against Tron G1 and Bant Eldrazi. I don't like Lighthouse too much since it doesn't do anything in fast matchups and after cutting the Remands/Leaks for Negate I feel like my answers are general enough for most situations so the looting is only really great against Jeskai/Grixis where you're both sitting there with full hands for much of the game. I like having 3 Colonnades which I'm sure a lot of people will disagree with- but Colonnade is definitely the plan B for this deck and I'd rather have untapped mana.
Also speaking about mana, I like running 3 Islands since you potentially have Cryptic mana through a Blood Moon.
The question that's important to ask is not so much whether or not Nahiri improves split matchups, but whether Control is better positioned than Midrange in the Jeskai colors. I think Nahiri serves a similar function to Geist in that she is a difficult to interact with 3 turn clock.
Since both Geist and Nahiri grant free wins on an empty board, I question whether having a bunch of midrange threats like Resto/additional Cliques/Avacyn/T-maw/etc. is better than board wipes and additional removal/counters.
Personally, the main draw of midrange was that I could quickly finish opponents when I gained an advantage. Blue in Modern has a lot of narrow imperfect answers and with the old Jeskai Control you had no guarantee you would draw the right ones. For example, if you stabilized at 6 life vs. Burn when they were topdecking, you were potentially 2 crummy draws from being dead. Geist enables you to finish off Burn quickly before they can draw what they needed to kill you. Nahiri now serves a similar function in the Control lists, with of course the differences being
1. Nahiri synergizes less with Burn and requires the ult to kill, unlike Geist, who often only needs to swing in once to let Burn/flyers take care of the rest.
2. Geist is a one turn faster clock if you are dropping both cards on curve, important against Combo and Tron.
3. Having Nahiri on your board is much more useful than a Geist that is bricked by a Kitchen Finks or something.
I felt that the Jeskai Midrange deck, when it wasn't being a beast and running over opponents with Geist, often transformed into a crummier Jeskai control once Geist got bricked on the ground or you had a more reactive draw.
I've decided to switch over because I think the balance has tipped- Control now gets most of the free wins Geist would have gotten you but with the benefit of going all in on a Control strategy rather than having it as a plan B.
Congratulations! That's some excellent news!
Your deck is essentially what I've been building for the past year, card for card, minus a few small differences:
+1 Avacyn
+2 Remand
-2 Mana Leak
+1 Celestial Colonnade
-1 Seachrome Coast
+1 Eiganjo Castle
-1 Steam Vents
So I think the 2 Avacyn with 22 lands is a bit much, even with the cantrips. I know there was a discussion on the previous page and I read it all, but I think that the top end is just a little bit too hard with 2 Avacyn. I'm wondering if you ever ran into problems during the tournament, assuming you ran this list.
I also ran 2 Mana Leaks instead of Remands but I think with 22 lands (which I am now definitely following) 4 Remand has to be correct.
I disagree a bit on 4 Colonnades because I don't like too many lands that come into play tapped in an aggressive list. I can see the argument for running 4 since by the time Colonnades become relevant you want to be drawing as many as possible, but I'm going to try a Seachrome Coast in its place for now.
The Castle I am considering picking up but I was wondering about how good it has been for you and why you weren't running the second Steam Vents. I've run into problems getting my colors during playtesting.
P.S. I wish Avacyn was only $20... I should've preordered her...
I have a few questions about your list.
1. Why the 2 Darkslicks? Are they against Burn/Choke?
2. Why only 1 Cryptic Command? Is it because you board in Blood Moon? Do you ever miss the second one against GBx or other decks?
3. I'm also curious about the role of Vandalblast, Dreadbore, Duress, and Ashiok. It seems like running a second K-Command would be better than Vandalblast. Dreadbore is interesting for sure- it's like a Roast that hits Lili. Duress I guess is good against Bloom. Not sure what Ashiok is good against.
My guess is that 3 of them are crap, 1 is OK/EDH worthy, and 1 is broken.
I guess the question is how I see games playing out. So far I like RUG against Burn, but honestly after reading your comments and thinking about it I see Grixis being better overall since I'm not sure RUG can execute the tempo game that well with only 4 Goyfs.
Also like you said, Goyf also seems like a weak late game topdeck; Tasigur at the very least can grind you additional cards and they both generally are the same P/T. The rest of the cards really push Grixis over the top.
I guess in summary I see the focuses like this:
RUG -> Half Tempo half Combo deck that seems a little inconsistent on the Tempo side
Grixis -> Primarily a Combo deck that can grind the late game
I think I'm leaning towards playing Grixis and just putting put a bunch of Burn hate in the SB and hoping to dodge it. It is a significant portion of my meta but I guess I like the feeling of being able to topdeck K-Command and grab a Snapcaster too much. Still, I'll try a few more games on Cockatrice before fully committing.