I've decided to try to go 3x Ephara instead of a split with Heliod. Heliod is nice, but I feel Ephara's just does everything we want in this deck. There are a lot of threats that just have to be dealt with in this deck. It will be difficult to answer them all.
I am wording it a little funny. It is kind of complicated to explain.
I'm not saying I have a 91% chance to draw BBV by turn 5. If I have 4 copies of a card the potential to draw it by turn 5 is about 57%. Of that 57% of the time that I draw it by turn 5, with 9 black sources there is a 91% chance I'll have that black source by turn 5.
It is a little confusing but it breaks down something like this. 17 white sources
given that I have 4 cards that require double white by turn 2 there is a 85% chance I will have the double white sources by turn 2 along with 1 of the 4 cards
given that I have 12 cards that require double white by turn 3 there is a 80% chance I will have double white sources by turn 3 along with 1 of the 12 cards
11 blue sources
given that I have 4 cards that require a single blue by turn 3 there is a 92% chance that I will have a single blue source by turn 3 along with 1 of the 4 cards
given that I have 6 cards that require a single blue by turn 4 there is a 92% chance that I will have a single blue source by turn 4 along with 1 of the 6 cards
9 black sources
given that I have 4 cards that require a single black by turn 5 (BBV) there is a 91% chance that I will have a single black source by turn 5 along with 1 of the 4 cards.
So I think the mana can support BBV along with Revelations only because BBV is a 5 drop and revelations doesn't usually come into play until turn 6 or later.
failure rate charts can be found here http://bopmtg.net/misc/mana-tables
I've also considered W/B for BBV and it's definitely an option for anyone interested. That's the nice thing about the white shell; it can be morphed into many different things.
I'm not talking about going straight up Wb devotion. I'm talking about WUb devotion. Basically keeping the WU devotion shell and adding 4 copies of BBV. So I'm looking at 3x Revelations, 4x BBV, 3x Brimaz, 2x Elspeth as the core of the deck.
Don't see why skyjek/Eidolon's there. You're not running too many smaller creatures for Skyjek's battalion, and Eidolon doesn't seem that effective when you have no auras apart from eidolon himself.
Daring Skyjek rounds out the 2 spot. There is a about a 60% chance that I'll see one of the 6 by turn 2 and with a total of ten 1&2 drops there is an 80% chance I'll have a creature to play by turn 2. I wish there was something stronger than Skyjeck but I don't see anything right now. Consider also that a turn 3 Brimazwill activate Battalion on turn 4.
As for ECB, I think that the synergy with token producers (Precinct Captain, Brimaz, and Heliod) make it serviceable. As an aura it will at least give +2 with a chance to go bigger, but I see the real value in the devotion count. Even after a board sweep I will have at least 2 devotion, 4 with spear, 3 with heliod. It is likely, if I have Heliod down, I can swing for 8 right after a board clearing effect.
If yoursplashing green voice of resurgence is where it is at. White is weak at the two spot with only precinct captain. Voice fills that need nicely. Plus works well with brimaz, and eidolon of countless battles.
If splashing red I think that stormbreath dragon could be interesting.
I'm trying this list. With a clear eye on the MBD matchup. I think it has the card that is the most problematic for MBD in blood baron, makes use of devotion with revelations, and can put on early pressure with some synergistic white creatures. Loveto get some thoughts.
Sry for the double post but I suspect this is a common problem people have when constructing decks. I think, like myself, most folks have around about idea on how to build a mana base but don't really know what their choices are being derived from.
It was a big eye opener how off my mana base was and how much I needed to change my deck. According to the charts (at a 10% fail rate) if I wanted to hit double white by turn two 90% of the time I need at least 15 white sources of mana. If I wanted to hit single green by turn two I need 10 green sources. If I want to hit double red by turn 6 I need 12 sources.
Just wow! Adding that lone copy of fleecemane lion and upping the green count to five cards means I have to increase my green count to 12 to keep the same 10% fail rate. So obviously I took it out. Because there was no way I could include two more green sources. I also discovered that 4 Nyx meant I would have to up my land count to 26 in order to have the an acceptable amount of colored sources. So now my mana base looks like this:
I have the necessary 15 white, 10 green, but fall slightly short of the 12 red—only one off. As for my deck I got rid of the 5th green card in Fleecemane and stuck to 2 double red sources by getting rid of Aurelia.
But slightly less obvious is its interaction with Heliod's devotion counters (as an aura) with respect to your opponent sweeping the board. Consider that if they sweep the board while ECB as an aura you are still at 3 devotion. Dropping anything with 2 devotion and your opponent will likely take 8 right after sweeping. This is relatively easy to do if you know it is coming. Also think Pantheon --> Precinct Captain --> Brimaz --> ECD as an aura. Spot removal won't save them here. Looking at your list the 4 spot seems a little thin. ECB can be a decent 3 drop situationally but an a really good 4.
This is the list I want to try, but I need a little help with creating a mana base for this deck. If The mana can be consistent I have high hopes for the deck. There are 5 cards that have a single green and 3 cards that have a double red.
- I want to run 4 nyx if possible. Could go down to 3 if needed.
- 24 or 25 lands?
- How did you come up with the mana base? I want to learn the basics of building mana. Is it trial and error where do I start? I usually just go by instinct but wondering if there is a more scientific way of going about it. This is where I am at the moment but I'm certain it can be improved.
You can't compare card for card like that. I mean, I can say white has imo the best one drop right now (Soldier of the Pantheon), an equally good 2 drop in Precinct (which works wonders with Spear, while Ash Zealot is redundant with Hammer), as well as a half decent two drop in Imposing Sovereign, and has too many good 3 drops (the shared Boros Reckoner, Banisher for removal, Brimaz (incoming), Fiendslayer for sideboard).
White curves into bigger stuff with nut draws. It's like a different version of green devotion, as least how I've played it. Red ends at what, 5 mana for stormbreath, devotion is used for Fanatic? White can go all the way to Angel at 7, mainly because half of our devotion is usually coming from non-creature permanents like planeswalkers/spears/heliod.
Hammer isn't better than spear- Spear gives such a powerful effect with your token generators while having the ability to get rid of threats (situationally).
I feel white devotion can be just as aggressive, but also has the option to go more slowly in a controlling way which gives it more flexibility.
Also, white devotion loves its planeswalkers. Red devotion uses Chandra, but white has Gideon/Ajani/Elspeth, one of which is nuts to curve into (t4 Elspeth is so strong), other two being good in their own right. Also helps that they nearly work perfectly (3 mana to 4 mana to 6 mana) in a curve.
I'm actually seeing Red seriously fall out of favor after this next set, since it really didn't get anything at all.
I agree with this line of thought. It is a strange deck. It can be fast and aggressive but not as fast as a dedicated agro deck. It can pump out high end creatures like a mid-range deck but at a slightly higher cost. It can play control but in a in such a different play style than traditional sweep and draw control builds.
One could argue that this makes it a mediocre deck, "decent at everything, master of nothing". Maybe , but it can also make for a deck with a lot of outs and strategies.
3x Godless Shrine
4x Hallowed Fountain
3x Watery Grave
2x Temple of Deceit
2x Temple of Enlightenment
1x Temple of Silence
7x Plains
3x Nyx
3x Hopeful Eidolon
4x precinct captain
2x vanguard of brimaz
3x brimaz
3x eidolon of countless battles
3x ephara, god of the polis
2x archangel of thune
4x blood baron
4x detention sphere
2x spear of Heliod
3x sphinx's revelation
2x elspeth
I've decided to try to go 3x Ephara instead of a split with Heliod. Heliod is nice, but I feel Ephara's just does everything we want in this deck. There are a lot of threats that just have to be dealt with in this deck. It will be difficult to answer them all.
I'm not saying I have a 91% chance to draw BBV by turn 5. If I have 4 copies of a card the potential to draw it by turn 5 is about 57%. Of that 57% of the time that I draw it by turn 5, with 9 black sources there is a 91% chance I'll have that black source by turn 5.
3x Godless Shrine
4x Hallowed Fountain
3x Watery Grave
2x Temple of Enlightenment
1x Temple of Silence
3x Nyx
It is a little confusing but it breaks down something like this.
17 white sources
So I think the mana can support BBV along with Revelations only because BBV is a 5 drop and revelations doesn't usually come into play until turn 6 or later.
failure rate charts can be found here http://bopmtg.net/misc/mana-tables
I'm not talking about going straight up Wb devotion. I'm talking about WUb devotion. Basically keeping the WU devotion shell and adding 4 copies of BBV. So I'm looking at 3x Revelations, 4x BBV, 3x Brimaz, 2x Elspeth as the core of the deck.
I've been thinking about splashing black for 1 card: Blood Baron of Vizkopa.
This card gives MBD fits and in general difficult to deal with.
Daring Skyjek rounds out the 2 spot. There is a about a 60% chance that I'll see one of the 6 by turn 2 and with a total of ten 1&2 drops there is an 80% chance I'll have a creature to play by turn 2. I wish there was something stronger than Skyjeck but I don't see anything right now. Consider also that a turn 3 Brimazwill activate Battalion on turn 4.
As for ECB, I think that the synergy with token producers (Precinct Captain, Brimaz, and Heliod) make it serviceable. As an aura it will at least give +2 with a chance to go bigger, but I see the real value in the devotion count. Even after a board sweep I will have at least 2 devotion, 4 with spear, 3 with heliod. It is likely, if I have Heliod down, I can swing for 8 right after a board clearing effect.
If splashing red I think that stormbreath dragon could be interesting.
4 soldier of the pantheon
2 daring skyjek
4 precinct captain
4 brimaz, king of oreskos
4 eidolon of countless battles
1 ephara, god of the polis
2 heliod, god of the sun
4 blood baron of vizkopa
4 detention sphere
2 spear of heliod
3 sphinx's revelation
Mana base 25
3 nyx
4 hallowed fountain
2 temple of enlightenment
3 godless shrine
1 temple of silence
3 watery grave
2 temple of deceit
5 plains
2 islands
So I did a little research and found this really cool article with easy to use charts: http://bopmtg.net/blog/mana-base-probabilities
http://bopmtg.net/misc/mana-tables
It was a big eye opener how off my mana base was and how much I needed to change my deck. According to the charts (at a 10% fail rate) if I wanted to hit double white by turn two 90% of the time I need at least 15 white sources of mana. If I wanted to hit single green by turn two I need 10 green sources. If I want to hit double red by turn 6 I need 12 sources.
Just wow! Adding that lone copy of fleecemane lion and upping the green count to five cards means I have to increase my green count to 12 to keep the same 10% fail rate. So obviously I took it out. Because there was no way I could include two more green sources. I also discovered that 4 Nyx meant I would have to up my land count to 26 in order to have the an acceptable amount of colored sources. So now my mana base looks like this:
3 Mountain
5 Plains
4 Stomping Ground
4 Temple Garden
2 Temple of Plenty
4 Temple of Triumph
I have the necessary 15 white, 10 green, but fall slightly short of the 12 red—only one off. As for my deck I got rid of the 5th green card in Fleecemane and stuck to 2 double red sources by getting rid of Aurelia.
My list is very similar to yours. Consider or test out Eidolon of Countless Battles. This card obviously works well with Precinct Captain, Brimaz, King of Oreskos and Heliod, God of the Sun.
But slightly less obvious is its interaction with Heliod's devotion counters (as an aura) with respect to your opponent sweeping the board. Consider that if they sweep the board while ECB as an aura you are still at 3 devotion. Dropping anything with 2 devotion and your opponent will likely take 8 right after sweeping. This is relatively easy to do if you know it is coming. Also think Pantheon --> Precinct Captain --> Brimaz --> ECD as an aura. Spot removal won't save them here. Looking at your list the 4 spot seems a little thin. ECB can be a decent 3 drop situationally but an a really good 4.
4 Soldier of the Pantheon
4 Precinct Captain
4 Voice of Resurgence
1 Fleecemain Lion
3 Boros Reckoner
3 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
4 Eidolon of countless Battles
2 Heliod, God of the Sun
2 Stormbreath Dragon
1 Aurelia, the Warleader
3 Spear of Heliod
2 Gideon, Champion of Justice
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
This is the list I want to try, but I need a little help with creating a mana base for this deck. If The mana can be consistent I have high hopes for the deck. There are 5 cards that have a single green and 3 cards that have a double red.
- I want to run 4 nyx if possible. Could go down to 3 if needed.
- 24 or 25 lands?
- How did you come up with the mana base? I want to learn the basics of building mana. Is it trial and error where do I start? I usually just go by instinct but wondering if there is a more scientific way of going about it. This is where I am at the moment but I'm certain it can be improved.
1 Forest
1 Mountain
7 Plains
2 Stomping Ground
4 Temple Garden
1 Temple of Plenty
4 Temple of Triumph
I agree with this line of thought. It is a strange deck. It can be fast and aggressive but not as fast as a dedicated agro deck. It can pump out high end creatures like a mid-range deck but at a slightly higher cost. It can play control but in a in such a different play style than traditional sweep and draw control builds.
One could argue that this makes it a mediocre deck, "decent at everything, master of nothing". Maybe , but it can also make for a deck with a lot of outs and strategies.
Uh...what are you talking about
Why is a mid-range deck more viable than agro? I think that it is too early to tell which way will work better