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  • posted a message on [[Official]] Legacy Ban List Discussion Thread (Read OP before Posting)
    I think it could be back within a year, which is about how far we'd have to wait for anything to get unbanned. Earthcraft is likely next, all of its conditions are met but one.

    a) it's extremely unlikely to impact the format at all
    b) Time Spiral, Land Tax, and Black Vise were already unbanned (all at least marginally more useful than this)
    c) card needs to be banned for bone to be cast

    Why would WOTC waste a bone when they don't have to? They'll wait until they print another silly card, like Treasure Cruise, and once it's banned we'll get tossed an unban: Earthcraft. I think it's a pretty solid spec, if nothing else.
    Posted in: Legacy (Type 1.5)
  • posted a message on [[Official]] Legacy Ban List Discussion Thread (Read OP before Posting)
    I'm not convinced that Mind Twist would be unsafe.

    There are a couple of decks that it could potentially be played in. What I often see discussed first is Pox, where the proposed play of Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Mind Twist for 4 is imagined. That's a fairly strong opening, but it gets 3-for-2ed by Force of Will and does little to a board that may well be occupied by a Delver of Secrets, Deathrite Shaman, or Sensei's Divining Top. It's played in a deck that doesn't topdeck well, and I don't think this potential line would push Pox very far up in the metagame. This is a shame, because I like Pox.

    The second circumstance in which Mind Twist is probably getting cast is in a Tezzerator deck, where a mana rock and two Sol lands can potentially push a 4 point Mind Twist on turn 2. I think that's a lot scarier because Tezz is scarier in the first place, and the format could use another viable pure control deck.

    Regardless of whether it's safe or not, it won't be unbanned for a considerable period of time. First Wizards has to print something that breaks the format. When they ban this card, they'll throw us a bone from the banned list. Mind Twist isn't first in line, Earthcraft is.
    Posted in: Legacy (Type 1.5)
  • posted a message on Burn
    Re: Village Messenger / Moonrise Intruder

    ... yeah, getting points out of this isn't as easy as Swiftspear. We'd occasionally have to not cast spells.
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • posted a message on Burn
    Quote from Nevelo »
    I had cut a Grim and put my Searing Blaze in the side for Swiftspear, since theoretically adding Spear was to make the combo matches better. I've switched back to 3 Blaze and the 3rd Lavamancer. I'm keeping Top though. It seemed to be worthwhile.


    Swiftspear isn't going to make your combo matchups better -- that's what Eidolon is for.


    Swiftspear first truly came into her own during the days of Dig Through Time, when Omnitell was tier 1. It was possible to race that deck, if they needed to sculpt, using Swiftspear.

    Nowadays I don't think she has the same utility, both Storm and Reanimator are way too fast.
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • posted a message on [Deck] Reanimator
    Yeah, I think perhaps mixing in some Golgari Charm will solve the problem to my satisfaction. There's also Pernicious Deed, but that looks too slow. I haven't tested it.
    Posted in: Combo
  • posted a message on [Deck] Reanimator
    Abrupt Decay might be less of a good card than it was a little while ago, what with these Eldrazi decks packing Leyline of the Void and representing a resurgence of that card. There are ways to kill it in green, of course. Nature's Claim comes to mind. Decay's whole attraction is its universality, though, so I don't know if this is where I want to be.
    Posted in: Combo
  • posted a message on [[Official]] What [deck] should I play/buy/get into thread
    That's very sound advice. I'd merely add the caveat that if the "deck you like" is a blue deck, one usually winds up with more flexibility in adjusting it a little further down the line.

    There's also the issue of format shifts and changes over time. Buying into the top deck right now is no guarantee that it will remain the top deck for the next five years. RUG Delver has been in and out of tier 1 since 2011. Miracles has probably been the most reliably tier 1 deck in that time period. I'd say this is the safest bet for anyone looking for a high caliber entry to the format that's likely to stick around for awhile.
    Posted in: Legacy (Type 1.5)
  • posted a message on [[Official]] What [deck] should I play/buy/get into thread
    Quote from FawkesZD »
    I've been eyeballing Legacy for a while and EMA is finally making me bite the bullet. I'm torn between a few different decks right now and not sure which way to go. Any input would be appreciated.

    -LED Dredge. The deck looks super fun to play! Watching videos of this deck just feels like what I want to do in Magic. But I do want something competitively viable in most metas and it looks so easy to hate out. And to add on to that, the price of LEDs just shot up. I know it's prolly still cheaper than most legacy decks, but it's hard for me to spend that much on a single card. It's easier for me to wrap my head around a deck with 12 $50 cards than it is 4 $150 cards. Any chance LED could start coming back down?

    -Legacy Eldrazi! I loved the look of MUD when I first saw it and the Eldrazi menace looks just as enticing. It's easy for me to get the Eldrazi creatures for it with all the practice I'm doing for GP DC and I feel like Eye of Ugin will drop in price in April. City of Traitors is on the reserve list, but I did manage to order some on TCGPlayer before the price started to rise. (Whether or not they'll ship is another issue). My main concerns here are 1) I don't know if the viability of the deck is proven, 2) I know bans don't happen as often in Legacy, but could this somehow warrant one in the future?, and 3) If 1 and 2 are clear, then it's just finding a tuned list. A lot of the shell is already agreed upon, but even then I see people splashing Green, White, and/or, Blue.

    - Death & Taxes. I already have a good number of the cards for this, but none of the super expensive ones. No Karakas/Port/Wastelands are in my current inventory. But the Vials and most of the creatures are. I also have a Jitte and since I'll be attending a couple GP's this year, I'd feel real nice having a promo playset of Mystic to go with my single GP Batterskull. My concerns here are 1) Is this a good deck for a newbie to legacy? It seems like it's a mostly reactive deck, and while that's not necessarily a problem, it means you have to know the meta just as much (if not moreso) than your own deck., 2) I know none of the cards are on the reserve list, and that's huge, but if Karakas and/or Port aren't reprinted, then I'm unsure if I could afford this and I have a feeling it's not very viable without those.

    Side question about D&T: Would a White/Black variant have any merit? I also have bobs and a playset of Marsh Flats. Is there anything to make with that here or nah?

    -Any other decks that I should look into? As you can see from my second two decks, I love mana denial plans and forcing my opponents to play fair while I smash through with stuff. Avoiding Dual Lands is also a big deal for me, though some still seem in the realm of affordability.

    I'm okay waiting to see what happens with EMA, but I feel prices are only going to keep rising and it's hard to decide which deck to invest in. I'm about to get around $600 out of my trade binder that I'm okay recycling into a legacy deck. Do I buy some singles and then try to snag a box of EMA? (Though, I'll still prolly try for a box of that. I just know it's gonna be fun to draft)

    Quote from FawkesZD »
    I've been eyeballing Legacy for a while and EMA is finally making me bite the bullet. I'm torn between a few different decks right now and not sure which way to go. Any input would be appreciated.

    -LED Dredge. The deck looks super fun to play! Watching videos of this deck just feels like what I want to do in Magic. But I do want something competitively viable in most metas and it looks so easy to hate out. And to add on to that, the price of LEDs just shot up. I know it's prolly still cheaper than most legacy decks, but it's hard for me to spend that much on a single card. It's easier for me to wrap my head around a deck with 12 $50 cards than it is 4 $150 cards. Any chance LED could start coming back down?

    -Legacy Eldrazi! I loved the look of MUD when I first saw it and the Eldrazi menace looks just as enticing. It's easy for me to get the Eldrazi creatures for it with all the practice I'm doing for GP DC and I feel like Eye of Ugin will drop in price in April. City of Traitors is on the reserve list, but I did manage to order some on TCGPlayer before the price started to rise. (Whether or not they'll ship is another issue). My main concerns here are 1) I don't know if the viability of the deck is proven, 2) I know bans don't happen as often in Legacy, but could this somehow warrant one in the future?, and 3) If 1 and 2 are clear, then it's just finding a tuned list. A lot of the shell is already agreed upon, but even then I see people splashing Green, White, and/or, Blue.

    - Death & Taxes. I already have a good number of the cards for this, but none of the super expensive ones. No Karakas/Port/Wastelands are in my current inventory. But the Vials and most of the creatures are. I also have a Jitte and since I'll be attending a couple GP's this year, I'd feel real nice having a promo playset of Mystic to go with my single GP Batterskull. My concerns here are 1) Is this a good deck for a newbie to legacy? It seems like it's a mostly reactive deck, and while that's not necessarily a problem, it means you have to know the meta just as much (if not moreso) than your own deck., 2) I know none of the cards are on the reserve list, and that's huge, but if Karakas and/or Port aren't reprinted, then I'm unsure if I could afford this and I have a feeling it's not very viable without those.

    Side question about D&T: Would a White/Black variant have any merit? I also have bobs and a playset of Marsh Flats. Is there anything to make with that here or nah?

    -Any other decks that I should look into? As you can see from my second two decks, I love mana denial plans and forcing my opponents to play fair while I smash through with stuff. Avoiding Dual Lands is also a big deal for me, though some still seem in the realm of affordability.

    I'm okay waiting to see what happens with EMA, but I feel prices are only going to keep rising and it's hard to decide which deck to invest in. I'm about to get around $600 out of my trade binder that I'm okay recycling into a legacy deck. Do I buy some singles and then try to snag a box of EMA? (Though, I'll still prolly try for a box of that. I just know it's gonna be fun to draft)



    Dredge is quite viable in all its forms. Both Manaless Dredge and LED-Dredge (which runs Tireless Tribe and a somewhat different configuration without Faithless Looting) are very good decks. Manaless might be the better of these two, but it's as vulnerable to hate as a deck can be. If you think you want to play Dredge, and it's a fun deck in my opinion, there really isn't a need to go all-in and buy LEDs ASAP. If it were me, I'd play without LED, wait for the price to dip a little, and pick up a playset once I found a good deal.

    DnT with black isn't DnT anymore, since it doesn't run Port on a two-color manabase. Fortunately, it is a separate deck, Deadguy Ale. This is a fun and very viable first fair deck entry into the format. I spent a lot of time playing it myself back in the day.

    As for something out of Eldrazi getting banned, it's much too early to say, but I seriously doubt this will happen in Legacy.
    Posted in: Legacy (Type 1.5)
  • posted a message on [Deck] Reanimator
    Quote from Sir Bill »
    Keranos is just plain old good against white decks, for it cannot be swords or containment priest'ed. As far as splashing green goes, I find it worse then straight UB ( budget limitations is not an issue for me either ). I find that just about everything can be handled with needle, echoing truth, and a show and tell package.


    Well, I'll be happy to represent the diversity of opinion on this question, in my view the green splash for Abrupt Decay smooths out a lot of matchups, most especially Miracles. It keeps the deck running according to the usual gameplan, and doesn't get stuck with Entomb/Reanimate/Exhume plus Show and Tell in hand. As antihate, it's good for what ails you almost every time. I'm a huge fan of the green, but to each their own.

    Regarding Flusterstorm, that's a rather good idea and it might be worthwhile to switch out Spell Pierce for it, at least in a green splash Reanimator since I'm bringing in Abrupt Decay against the hate cards. Then again, it doesn't hurt to remain flexible in those slots. Flusterstorm has more value as a defensive counter than offensive. I don't think we need that much defense. Possibly, with the advent of Invasive Surgery, we will.
    Posted in: Combo
  • posted a message on [Primer] Collected Company Elves
    I'm throwing my hat in with the Elves, this deck is loads of fun and very strong. I actually had the sensation of wanting to play Modern more than Legacy for the first time ever because of this. Here's the list I'm starting out with: it's slightly budget in the sense that I haven't added Cavern of Souls yet. As yesterday's testing revealed, these are essential not only for various counterspells (which aren't that prevalent in Modern anyway), but also to fuel my favorite sideboard card: Warping Wail.



    Obviously, I'm new to the deck and still tuning it up, so any advice would be appreciated. The only thing I'm not interested in doing is adding Chords to the deck, which in my view changes the deck away from blunt instrument card advantage via Leads into a subtle, precision instrument with toolbox elements.

    I cut Elvish Visionary almost immediately despite being very fond of this elf in Legacy. Here, we don't have Wirewood Symbiote, so there's no replay value and no invincible blocker, just a vanilla 1/1 elf and a random card. Maybe in a Chord build he would be great, but I don't see the need for him in a Lead build.

    Leylines are in there as an anti-Burn card, as this deck is super prevalent in my area, and because I read somewhere that Eldrazi don't like to see this on the table. I can imagine bringing it in also against discard-heavy decks. While I'm not very sure about this sideboard card, the idea is to protect the 3 and 4 mana business spells. I wouldn't want to be sitting there with a board full of mana dorks and lose that to a Thoughtseize.
    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • posted a message on [[Official]] What [deck] should I play/buy/get into thread
    Re: how often Miracles fetches for a dual land before 3-4 basics are on the field, I'd say that's about 25% of the time. The sequence normally goes like this.

    T1: Island (fetched or not), Top, pass turn.
    "Oh, he's playing Storm/Burn/whatever deck that doesn't run Wasteland, I need both colors and a Counterbalance ASAP."
    T2: Tundra, Counterbalance.

    Consequently, the deck is miles better with just one Tundra to enable that sort of sequence. Each Tundra after the first has diminishing returns, and there's really no need for the fourth one at all. Shocklands actually aren't that bad in Miracles. It's not like a Delver deck where you'll have to Daze with them sometimes.
    Posted in: Legacy (Type 1.5)
  • posted a message on Drawbacks of 2 vs 1 Color Manabase
    There are four main levels of land destruction going on in Legacy. As a mono-colored deck, one is immune to three of them, and really vulnerable only to the fourth.

    The first is the basic Wasteland attack. This is the most ubiquitous form of land destruction, and the mono deck is immune to it. A deck with two colors is largely immune to this as well, since you can fetch basic lands for most of your needs. Even when a dual is wasted, this rarely puts one off of a color. It's rare, and lucky, to waste UR Delver off of red, for example, whereas cutting RUG Delver off of either green or red by focusing the wastelands on that particular color is much more feasible. Many decks run Wasteland, with even Shardless BUG running 2 of them to take out key utility lands.

    The second main type of land hate in Legacy is Stifle. Mono decks generally present few targets for Stifle due to their lack of fetch lands, but note that some decks (like High Tide) that still run fetches are exceptions to this rule. 2-color decks, however, are not much better off than 3-color decks against this card.

    The third main type of land hate in Legacy is permanent-based. Certain cards, like Blood Moon, Price of Progress, and Back to Basics, very thoroughly and savagely hate on complex mana bases. (Although Price of Progress is not, of course, a permanent, it might as well be because it usually ends the game when it resolves!) In my opinion, it is a subtle and great feature of Legacy that there is no synergy at all between this type of mana denial and the others. Once again, we see the mono deck powering through these cards effortlessly, barring few more unusual cases like Winter Orb brought in from a Delver player's sideboard against a 2-color Nic Fit deck.

    The fourth type of mana denial, and the only one that mono decks are vulnerable to, is Rishadan Port, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, and Trinisphere effects. This style of mana denial is so universal that it catches everything in its dragnet, but on the other hand generally requires a massive commitment of a deck's resources. Putting 2 of one's own lands against 1 of the other player's (Rishadan Port), not using cantrips (Thalia), and not using 1-2 drop spells (Trinisphere) are all pretty extreme measures.

    If I were to sum it up, compared with a mono color deck, playing two colors in Legacy is considerably more taxing on one's mana resources. The near-universal Wasteland is no longer dead in the other player's hands, and Stifle suddenly does something to you. Death and Taxes, which didn't really care that you were mono in the first place, gets a bit tougher to beat. At least those horrid permanent-based hate cards don't hurt you.

    Going from 2 to 3 colors doesn't present much more difficulty. The only thing one needs to deal with in this case are those nasty hate permanents, in addition to getting Wasteland applied to one's base in inconvenient ways on occasion.
    Posted in: Legacy (Type 1.5)
  • posted a message on [[Official]] Legacy Ban List Discussion Thread (Read OP before Posting)
    Quote from Baba123 »
    So... we're safe?


    I think so, but that goes both for bannings and unbannings. They mostly throw out unbannings as a consolation prize when something gets banned. The thing to do when something silly is going on in the format, as during the Treasure Cruise / DTT era, is to pick up a playset of those likely-to-be-unbanned cards before the hype train quadruples their value. Not necessarily to speculate, but just to save on cards when the inevitable bone gets tossed. I mean, who would want to pay more than a dime for a Black Vise?
    Posted in: Legacy (Type 1.5)
  • posted a message on [[Official]] What [deck] should I play/buy/get into thread
    Quote from Ozuar »
    I made a post on the Modern board a while back about which deck I should play because I wanted to get into an eternal format. The more I look at modern decklists the less and less they appeal to me. Despite a moderate budget, Legacy is easily the next place for me to look. I'll say what I said over there. I like G. Specifically, I enjoy GR. In terms of cards, I don't have much worth noting besides playsets of Wooded Foothills and Siege Rhino... Which still aren't very noteworthy. Essentially, I'll be building from scratch. I like midrange style decks the most. I could be persuaded to like combo or aggro, depending if it has the right elements. I'm open to any and all suggestions.


    Red and green? Nothing says red and green like Goblin Charbelcher!*

    *This is not an endorsement of Goblin Charbelcher, one of the most despised decks in the game, and one that hasn't been respectably competitive since the summer of 2012.

    But seriously though, there are some good times to be had playing Goblins. They aren't as good as they once were, but the tribe is fun and a fully-equipped deck (complete with Ports, Vials, and Wastelands would be ready to transition into DnT with a couple of Karakas cards and a Stoneforge package).
    Posted in: Legacy (Type 1.5)
  • posted a message on [[Official]] What [deck] should I play/buy/get into thread
    That is correct. There are very effective versions of Pox that focus solely on hand and creature removal, using The Rack as the primary win condition. In these versions, however, Liliana plays a very important role, and running less than 4 is going to be far from optimal. In the LD versions of Pox she's still crucial, but not to the same extent.

    If you're just getting into the format and you want to do so via Pox, I suggest sticking with a discard-oriented deck in as budget-conscious a manner as you can. It's an interesting, unique, and instructive deck. Keep in mind that few players continue playing Pox for the long term, and by next year you'll probably be on to something different. While there are better and worse versions of the deck, they all share the same structural weakness: the very bonecrushing sorceries that Pox uses to enter a resource-starved late game make for abysmal topdecks. As a new player, it's easy to get the idea that just adding these high-quality, expensive cards like Wasteland, Sinkhole, and Tabernacle will make the deck tier 1, but that's not the case.
    Posted in: Legacy (Type 1.5)
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