True enough, they do require not only the 3 card combo, but enough time to get 3 counters on the Vial and run the risk of Karakaas getting blown up if they play it out early. We threaten Mangara on the board with Funeral Charm and Darkblast, lands on the board, and anything in the hand.
I guess this is one of the reasons for Sinkhole and Wasteland.
Dystopia also kills geist, stoneforge, elves and death and taxes if it sticks for a few turns.
If you combine this with the rest of the creature destroy and discard in the deck it will be very hard for those decks to make a comeback.
I think it will be worthwhile for me, then. Maverick is huge here, and Death & Taxes has players too. I'm still a bit concerned that D&T can Aether Vial Mangara and bounce it freely even under Dystopia, removing Dystopia.
EoT, I Darkblast Mom. She taps for protection. Then on my turn, Dredge Darkblast and finish her.
It's still a lot of work to kill a 1 drop, but hey, better than throwing 2 Swords to Plowshares at her. We still have the option of Dredging it again for whatever other little guys. Darkblast has so many wonderful uses, maybe I'll run 2 after all. Delver, flipped or not: Knight of the Reliquary after he attacks, if we have Bojuka Bog.
I play Pox, actually, not MB Discard: but I think I prefer Dystopia vs. a Leyline of Sanctity. It's either going to hit the Leyline: or perhaps Dryad Arbor, Mother of Runes, Thalia, whatever nonlands they happen to get on the field.
Maverick is a tough matchup anyway: it often powers out creatures fast enough to outpace the sacrificial frenzy. Their deck might actually play the Leyline. I guess Lands might play it too, and you can also hit their Fastbond or Exploration.
What I really like about Darkblast is that you know how you need 2 removal spells to kill Mother of Runes? Darkblastis two removal spells!
I'm going to run only a singleton though. I love seeing my opponent's face when he's proudly holding a pair of cards against Liliana, pleased that he'll get to keep the good one. Funeral Charm is lots of fun here.
My question: how much discard is enough discard, and how much is too much?
I run: 4 Hymns and 4 IoK in the 'dedicated discard' pile. Then there's 4 Smallpox, 4 Funeral Charm, 2 Pox, and 3 Lilianas in the 'discard+' pile. I have a singleton Rack, 'cause it's nice but I hate having 2. I am running neither Wasteland, nor Factories, nor Sinkholes. I am not attacking land at all at this point, but I get the impression that this would be powerful and I should be doing it.
There's probably a sweet spot between hand/land disruption, and that's what I'm looking for.
I thought about Phyrexian Arena too, but I didn't try it. It just seemed too slow. Perhaps if you're using the Mox Diamond and Crucible of Worlds build, which I think of as a separate branch of Pox with a superior long game.
I on the other hand run Dark Ritual, looking for that 1st turn Liliana or very aggressive 1st turn discard effects, and although he's out of fashion, I still play Tombstalker. He's getting to be more of a Sideboard Stalker, though. He handily trounces Burn.
Ritual into Phyrexian Arena won't turn into card advantage until turn 4, at which point I've sunk 3 life into it as well. It just seems like I'd hear a sigh of relief from the other side of the table if I dropped that.
I'd say Pox has some card advantage tools though. Cast Smallpox as your last card with no creatures on the board: you get a card from hand and 1 of their creatures too. Lands are a wash. That's +1. Hymn to Tourach is a clear +1, except against Dredge of course! Pox with opponent on 4 lands and 4 cards, you're on 3 lands and 3 cards, that's +1 even with no creatures on the field. If you can get a creature too, +2. The OP described the tricks with the Center of the Sea we can use.
Then there's virtual card advantage too, right, for blanking some of the opponent's answers. Swords to Plowshares is of no avail against Liliana and a Rack. If we're in topdeck mode and they're pulling land... Swords... creature... another land... those cards mean just about nothing.
I definitely +1 the Darkblast plan. I'm a recent convert.
Experience has slowly been teaching me the same thing you're saying. Of course they'll dump whatever cards they have to Time Spiral, but we have more counter magic than most other decks, so when we dump our protection, we should come out on top. I only recently added Time Spiral, so I'm not quite used to thinking about it yet. With Snap/Faeries it's about protecting the Cunning Wish or whatever piece they stab at when one seems to be low on cards.
My close friend plays Dredge, so I am familiar with this matchup. Thankfully he hasn't the motivation the put down the cash for Diamonds, and still runs the old Imp/Nomads list, but I still generally lose. I've stolen a few games with a Wished Trap, one by Snapping a gigantic Grave Troll, and one by Slaughter Pacting an Iona.
I have never played Reanimator. It seems to be a deck with little appeal in Beijing. There's not that much combo generally, just me and one other person. And I saw him pushing Reset with Merchant Scroll, Preordain, and Ponder (facepalm).
I am going to miss those MD Snap cards. Maverick and Death/Taxes always seem to have a hate bear for me, even game 1.
Thank you for the advice love_blanket, that certainly does look like a tight list. I'll keep it in mind as I continue to build the deck. I began with a pretty extreme budget build a few months ago, and have been working it up steadily since then.
Actually this has been very helpful. Starting out with weaker cards, one has to play a tight game to get any respect and a chance of winning. One acquires certain skills, like going off with some measure of confidence on turn 3, or going off without Time Spiral in the deck, not just in hand!
About the Remand issue, well, I thought it might end this way. It does indeed stink as a counter in the most important situations, protecting my combo or countering a nasty early threat. Why, just last night on the play my opponent missed a turn 2 land drop and passed. I was looking at Remand and Merchant Scroll. He knew I was playing Remand. Of course I used the Scroll, find my second Tide. He stuck Thalia, ticked his Vial to 2, and Stoneforged for the Sword of Fire and Ice.
I didn't have bounce in hand, so he managed to equip next turn and started swinging as I make land drops. At 5 life, an EoT Cunning Wish finds my Slaughter Pact and I combo. That Pact has saved me many times.
I suspect he intentionally missed his land drop so he could resolve Thalia through Remand. Then again, he had the Vial already.
But yeah, Remand certainly isn't a very good counter. It has reasonable surprise value. I'll keep it around for now, I think. Largely because the weekly card budget just went into Misty Rainforest.
As for Gigadrowse, your point about just getting another counter is well received. I guess there aren't likely to be many situations where the Pact wouldn't be just as good. I guess the local RUG Delver traumatized me by holding double FoW, Brainstorm, and a Stifle against me recently. He had 4 Islands, I had a Defense Grid up. The Drowse would have been better, limiting him to 1 counterspell and no Stifle. As it was, after two High Tide he hard cast one FoW, chucked for the other, and still had a Stifle for me. I lost.
Pretty narrow situation, but it reminded me that Defense Grid doesn't really play well with High Tide in a counter war. I felt kind of dumb having them both online. Then again, I see all these tremendous players using them, so I'm not sure what to think. Probably I'll struggle with the ridiculous Gigadrowse before coming back to Defense Grids in the end.
One more question, why do I so often see a pair of Surgical Extractions in SB? Am I supposed to side one in against Dredge, etc?
EDIT: I'm an idiot, the enemy isn't the opponent's untapped Islands: it's the opponent's fresh grip of countermagic after Time Spiral resolves. Hence the Defense Grids.
It seems there's a plan, especially for those w/o Candles (like me), to MD 3 Remand and even a Brain Freeze to try and lower the Storm count necessary for a mill victory.
Another question I have is about Defense Grid. This is intended to shut off interference on my combo turn. Yet I find that if my opponent has untapped Islands for blue, i.e. he's packing Force of Will and company, it's not doing much since he's also benefiting from my High Tide.
Of course it would be nice to Turnabout his lands on EoT step, but I often need that Turnabout myself. As I said: no Candles.
Now please don't laugh too hard at this one, but back in the day we used to Gigadrowse lands (and maybe, say, that Delver as well) during an opponent's upkeep. It seems to me that this wishable and tutorable answer might be a bit better, since it might also pin a creature and get us to the next turn. Or we could take the damage, wait for the land drop, and tap it down then.
Could also shield us against Hymn to Tourach, on upkeep, unless a Ritual powers it out. I guess this isn't much defense, but Defense Grid does little against discard (except Funeral Charm).
Am I missing something or should I sleeve up Gigadrowse?
In my opinion, more Fiend Hunters: all the way to 4, cutting Dismember and Oblivion Ring. These I would place in the sideboard. I also do not think 4 Elite Inquisitor is worthwhile: 2 Leonin Relic-Warder seems to me a reasonable drop, with so much equipment appearing on the other side of the board. I think 2 Elite Inquisitor (I don't like keeping it) and 2 Relic-Warder.
When it comes to the blue splash: I do splash it for Moorland Haunt, using Glacial Fortress. Not using Geist of Saint Traft is partly a budget decision, as I don't fancy spending that much on a non-Legacy card, and partly because one one starts with the Geist, one really wants Mana Leak, and then Snapcaster, Vapor Snag, all that stuff... and the Mentor of the Meek engine is going to get cut, the deck winds up Aggro/Control and not a really pure Aggro any longer.
Moorland Haunt I feel quite strongly about, however- it is flatly necessary in a format with Day of Judgement, we're running Honor of the Pure anyway, and it helps a lot after the Mentor-fueled horde of weenies gets swept away.
I guess my point is that, main deck and going mostly white- run as much Mentor of the Meek as possible, and make every card a cheap, must-counter (or must-kill) creature.
My sideboard advice: Timely Reinforcements. I have had loads of fun pretending to 'fall behind' in a race vs. Tempered Steel, only to unleash Timely Reinforcements. One game I pulled it off twice, and ended at 12 life. It might help with the Fateful Hour ability on Gather the Townsfolk, too: I imagine 'losing' the race to 5 life, then tapping 5 for both cards. Also, things to take out opposing equipment, like Sword of War and Peace: that will all but kill the deck.
I guess this is one of the reasons for Sinkhole and Wasteland.
I think it will be worthwhile for me, then. Maverick is huge here, and Death & Taxes has players too. I'm still a bit concerned that D&T can Aether Vial Mangara and bounce it freely even under Dystopia, removing Dystopia.
It's still a lot of work to kill a 1 drop, but hey, better than throwing 2 Swords to Plowshares at her. We still have the option of Dredging it again for whatever other little guys. Darkblast has so many wonderful uses, maybe I'll run 2 after all. Delver, flipped or not: Knight of the Reliquary after he attacks, if we have Bojuka Bog.
Does anyone sideboard Dystopia?
Maverick is a tough matchup anyway: it often powers out creatures fast enough to outpace the sacrificial frenzy. Their deck might actually play the Leyline. I guess Lands might play it too, and you can also hit their Fastbond or Exploration.
I'm going to run only a singleton though. I love seeing my opponent's face when he's proudly holding a pair of cards against Liliana, pleased that he'll get to keep the good one. Funeral Charm is lots of fun here.
My question: how much discard is enough discard, and how much is too much?
I run: 4 Hymns and 4 IoK in the 'dedicated discard' pile. Then there's 4 Smallpox, 4 Funeral Charm, 2 Pox, and 3 Lilianas in the 'discard+' pile. I have a singleton Rack, 'cause it's nice but I hate having 2. I am running neither Wasteland, nor Factories, nor Sinkholes. I am not attacking land at all at this point, but I get the impression that this would be powerful and I should be doing it.
There's probably a sweet spot between hand/land disruption, and that's what I'm looking for.
I on the other hand run Dark Ritual, looking for that 1st turn Liliana or very aggressive 1st turn discard effects, and although he's out of fashion, I still play Tombstalker. He's getting to be more of a Sideboard Stalker, though. He handily trounces Burn.
Ritual into Phyrexian Arena won't turn into card advantage until turn 4, at which point I've sunk 3 life into it as well. It just seems like I'd hear a sigh of relief from the other side of the table if I dropped that.
I'd say Pox has some card advantage tools though. Cast Smallpox as your last card with no creatures on the board: you get a card from hand and 1 of their creatures too. Lands are a wash. That's +1. Hymn to Tourach is a clear +1, except against Dredge of course! Pox with opponent on 4 lands and 4 cards, you're on 3 lands and 3 cards, that's +1 even with no creatures on the field. If you can get a creature too, +2. The OP described the tricks with the Center of the Sea we can use.
Then there's virtual card advantage too, right, for blanking some of the opponent's answers. Swords to Plowshares is of no avail against Liliana and a Rack. If we're in topdeck mode and they're pulling land... Swords... creature... another land... those cards mean just about nothing.
I definitely +1 the Darkblast plan. I'm a recent convert.
My close friend plays Dredge, so I am familiar with this matchup. Thankfully he hasn't the motivation the put down the cash for Diamonds, and still runs the old Imp/Nomads list, but I still generally lose. I've stolen a few games with a Wished Trap, one by Snapping a gigantic Grave Troll, and one by Slaughter Pacting an Iona.
I've come to swear by that lonely Slaughter Pact.
I have never played Reanimator. It seems to be a deck with little appeal in Beijing. There's not that much combo generally, just me and one other person. And I saw him pushing Reset with Merchant Scroll, Preordain, and Ponder (facepalm).
I am going to miss those MD Snap cards. Maverick and Death/Taxes always seem to have a hate bear for me, even game 1.
Actually this has been very helpful. Starting out with weaker cards, one has to play a tight game to get any respect and a chance of winning. One acquires certain skills, like going off with some measure of confidence on turn 3, or going off without Time Spiral in the deck, not just in hand!
About the Remand issue, well, I thought it might end this way. It does indeed stink as a counter in the most important situations, protecting my combo or countering a nasty early threat. Why, just last night on the play my opponent missed a turn 2 land drop and passed. I was looking at Remand and Merchant Scroll. He knew I was playing Remand. Of course I used the Scroll, find my second Tide. He stuck Thalia, ticked his Vial to 2, and Stoneforged for the Sword of Fire and Ice.
I didn't have bounce in hand, so he managed to equip next turn and started swinging as I make land drops. At 5 life, an EoT Cunning Wish finds my Slaughter Pact and I combo. That Pact has saved me many times.
I suspect he intentionally missed his land drop so he could resolve Thalia through Remand. Then again, he had the Vial already.
But yeah, Remand certainly isn't a very good counter. It has reasonable surprise value. I'll keep it around for now, I think. Largely because the weekly card budget just went into Misty Rainforest.
As for Gigadrowse, your point about just getting another counter is well received. I guess there aren't likely to be many situations where the Pact wouldn't be just as good. I guess the local RUG Delver traumatized me by holding double FoW, Brainstorm, and a Stifle against me recently. He had 4 Islands, I had a Defense Grid up. The Drowse would have been better, limiting him to 1 counterspell and no Stifle. As it was, after two High Tide he hard cast one FoW, chucked for the other, and still had a Stifle for me. I lost.
Pretty narrow situation, but it reminded me that Defense Grid doesn't really play well with High Tide in a counter war. I felt kind of dumb having them both online. Then again, I see all these tremendous players using them, so I'm not sure what to think. Probably I'll struggle with the ridiculous Gigadrowse before coming back to Defense Grids in the end.
One more question, why do I so often see a pair of Surgical Extractions in SB? Am I supposed to side one in against Dredge, etc?
EDIT: I'm an idiot, the enemy isn't the opponent's untapped Islands: it's the opponent's fresh grip of countermagic after Time Spiral resolves. Hence the Defense Grids.
Another question I have is about Defense Grid. This is intended to shut off interference on my combo turn. Yet I find that if my opponent has untapped Islands for blue, i.e. he's packing Force of Will and company, it's not doing much since he's also benefiting from my High Tide.
Of course it would be nice to Turnabout his lands on EoT step, but I often need that Turnabout myself. As I said: no Candles.
Now please don't laugh too hard at this one, but back in the day we used to Gigadrowse lands (and maybe, say, that Delver as well) during an opponent's upkeep. It seems to me that this wishable and tutorable answer might be a bit better, since it might also pin a creature and get us to the next turn. Or we could take the damage, wait for the land drop, and tap it down then.
Could also shield us against Hymn to Tourach, on upkeep, unless a Ritual powers it out. I guess this isn't much defense, but Defense Grid does little against discard (except Funeral Charm).
Am I missing something or should I sleeve up Gigadrowse?
I also like Elite Vanguard, Mentor of the Meek, the Accorder Paladin, and the Grand Abolisher. A quick Grand Abolisher can win almost on his own against the blue players.
I have not incorporated Gather the Townsfolk into my deck yet.
When it comes to the blue splash: I do splash it for Moorland Haunt, using Glacial Fortress. Not using Geist of Saint Traft is partly a budget decision, as I don't fancy spending that much on a non-Legacy card, and partly because one one starts with the Geist, one really wants Mana Leak, and then Snapcaster, Vapor Snag, all that stuff... and the Mentor of the Meek engine is going to get cut, the deck winds up Aggro/Control and not a really pure Aggro any longer.
Moorland Haunt I feel quite strongly about, however- it is flatly necessary in a format with Day of Judgement, we're running Honor of the Pure anyway, and it helps a lot after the Mentor-fueled horde of weenies gets swept away.
I guess my point is that, main deck and going mostly white- run as much Mentor of the Meek as possible, and make every card a cheap, must-counter (or must-kill) creature.
My sideboard advice: Timely Reinforcements. I have had loads of fun pretending to 'fall behind' in a race vs. Tempered Steel, only to unleash Timely Reinforcements. One game I pulled it off twice, and ended at 12 life. It might help with the Fateful Hour ability on Gather the Townsfolk, too: I imagine 'losing' the race to 5 life, then tapping 5 for both cards. Also, things to take out opposing equipment, like Sword of War and Peace: that will all but kill the deck.