Man, that Forge of Heroes looks amazing. Think about the blink engine working and Adeliz entering (casting or blinking). Fatality. I will have this one in my brew (and maybe an Expedition Map to fetch it), period.
But this will be quite bad against decks that has some amount of removal. Stop Adeliz a few times and most of whats left wont be a problem - except for 3 (2 of which has prowess) everything got 1 or 2 powers. Thats not stompy!
I stand corrected, adeliz is really fragile here. Suggestions?
Crimson Wisps and Expedite are there for any creatures you top deck after t3. The deck aims to kill at t4 or possibly t5, though a t3 kill is possible (Kiln Fiend). If you have Kiln Fiend or Cyclops, chances are you won't even bother with playing Adeliz.
Agreed.
I decided against the tap duals as I don't really need more fixing and I want speed. Wilds, expanse and barrens (and merchant scroll) all provide shuffling effects for Brainstorm.
Agreed, taplands here are meh.
However, with lots of land, you risk mana flooding if you fizzle on your fundamental turn - from all those cantrip effects you used to pump your team. I think the solution is to play wizards like Sage of Epityr and Omenspeaker, while also running the red and blue lands that cycle for R and U respectively and at least 17 land.
I agree on 17 lands tops and maybe more cantrips (I added Impulse), maybe adding the UR Panorama also among them (4 fetches helps to filter basics from your draws and replaces a basic instead of a good spell replaced by a slow wizard)... but the rest dilutes the aggro aspect of the deck. Needs playtesting.
I need to post my EDH here. Will do when my cards arrive.
My take on TL (urdjur beat me to it but there is a lot of intersection).
Only 3-cost spell is Adeliz, fast (main cmc = 1.53) and lots of cantrips, evasions and burns.
Some spells were put to protect our pump engine. Hypergeometric calculator says we have 65% of chance of drawing one up to turn 5 on play. Also lands were select in a way there 92% of chance of having a red source by turn 3 on play. As a classic stompy player I think it can beat opponent fast enough...
You're looking at probabilities, and you can calculate them using a hypergeometric distribution calculator
I know the math but I am lazy Actually I have 19 green sources if I count Ingot, Map and Wellspring to achieve it (99,19,9,1 = 86.6%).
And of course, you can't count green ramp/fix as a green source, since you need green to cast it (but you can certainly count it as a W or R source)
If we ignore conditional probability (and we shouldn't but then again, I'm lazy), one turn later, considering 5 ramp spells (R&S is too expensive) and Traumatic Visions the first splash color should be (98,19,10,1 = 89.7%). One turn later, for the 2nd splash color we should have (97,18,11,1 = 90.9%). All numbers are slightly greater when we are on play because the sample size increases by 1.
Sorry if I miscalculated anything. I know this approach is heavily biased because this way I'd ditch a Map when I could fetch a Bog or something but that's feasible to accomplish this - if I didn't screw too much on the math.
I think the updated primer is really nice, that said I do not see why the packages must be the same size. Some of the discussion seems to imply that they should NOT be the same size and while it might help simplify the initial description, that seems a bad reason to make the deck weaker.
I agree with that. The packages should be 'core packages'. Anything else is a flex number of flex slots
The Krosan Tusker/Reap and Sow is an example of this. The semantics are important here for us to determine what one thinks it's vital to be in core and each package.
However, since the combo is core, it's hard to recommend a combo requiring 2 out of 3 double duals when you could easily be running more.
Sorry, I meant UBG lifegain duals and all 4 U double duals. I run these.
I'm a firm believer that the deck wants 20 green sources that are available by turn 3.
(...) That means we have a good chance of having at least one of either R or W mana in a dual or dedicated source, so we don't need to waste gold sources or green ramp on both our off colors.
We need 1 green source in our first 9 cards, which is equivalent to 11 green sources in our 99-card deck. Mine has 16 counting all lands (12 if I don't count the 4 fetches) so I think I'm OK on this.
In addition to that, for any red or white color I have 4 fetches, a double dual, 2 basics, and Darksteel Ingot, which gives me 8 sources of splash colors, or 8/99 = .9696/12 ~ 1/12 = 1 source by turn 5 on the play. So with this config I am able to reach green with gold lands and without fetches by turn 3 and 1 splash color by turn 5 with fetches and without gold lands. So I need to ramp 1 splash color. In mid-to-late game I need as many UB sources as I can have so I can tweak my lifegain/double duals if/when I see I mana screw on this config, which I didn't realized yet.
Costly Plunder came in again as a uncounterable and response-proof sac outlet, safer than Perilous Research, which comes out of the deck as of now.
I think it's best in the Trinkets mana base, and if you don't run Research, you should probably have BEB/Hydroblast over your second copy of REB/Pyro as a tutor target for Merchant Scroll.
This is the only drawback of having Costly Plunder, but we still have 3 (instead of 4) tutors to have it. IMO it's a good price for being uncounterable and response-proof. At least twice my opponent had Swords to Plowshares or Counterspell to screw my wipe, and these cards are useless with CP. Of course, one could counter it so I don't buy 2 cards
Scour From Existence hits everything, but it's a lot of mana. Wrecking Ball has good utility and can trigger CoA. Reap and Sow has good utility and optional card advantage. You can make arguments for which one is best depending on your other mix of cards, but my point is that unless you have at least one of these cards you will not have a way to interact with troublesome lands.
This is one of the very few Achille's Heels of this deck. This and GY hate are bad for us. But you can always exile Sun Titan or do the Spore Frog soft lock meanwhile so you can defend yourself using other cards in your example.
That's not how I play the deck most of the time. In multiplayer, I typically go for an early CoA drop, attack where it's politically safe and instant sac outlet if I'm attacked seriously back. After the first explosion, I go for Flicker or Capsize and drop as much land as I can. Then I either win with flicker combo or go into looping CoA.
In 1v1 games with people that have commanders that cost 6+ mana or take a long while to get going, I sometimes rely exclusively on Capsize as soon as I have 6+ mana on board. Usually after a CoA explosion that takes out ramp artifacts first.
Multiplayer: Me too but obviously the combo is almost as primary as the wipe machine.
1v1: I realy almost exclusively on wiping once faster than the opponent establishes a position and then combo or capsize or beats.
With the primer updated, are we to a point where we want to start having single card / strategy discussions?
Trickery over Deprive is a good idea. Exiling spells is so strong in this format.
Yeah, and again, anything that slows us down on lands is a nonbo given we run 35 lands. The only concession I can make here is Gush because come on, it costs 0 to cast!
Well, we have 2 tiny differences between the brews (Distortion Strike/Trinket Mage vs Snap/Information Dealer). Great success!
I like Staggershock more on paper. Will test.
Will test Trinket Mage also.
I agree with Rolling Thunder. It is clunky but it's excellent when you can cast it.
- I have the combo package, but as of now I use Mycosynth Wellspring, Disturbed Burial, and Vedalken AEthermage instead of Farhaven Elf (depends on green, more expensive, more prone to spot removal, but works with Displace), Urborg Uprising (I prefer the buyback option, more straightforward as you said), and Mnemonic Wall (more clunky but I can filter the deck and look for Sidisi's Faithful as well, actually I think it should be core because of these search possibilities and reuse of it just like any transmute creature card).
- I have the Far Wanderings mana base but using Reap and Sow instead of Krosan Tusker (tutoring utility lands or double ones to combo with the Faerie is more priority than ramping because I already have some spells to do it).
I will edit my previous deck post in a few days. Distant Melody is out, Vedalken Dismisser is in again, you convinced me on this (but not Sphinx's Disciple - 26 wizards if you count the tutor one).
Things I think they might not be optimal in this deck and possible replacements: Information Dealer - the weakest ability, 1/1 body, and needs the wizard untapped, and is as situational as Distant Melody exactly for the same reason. maybe the Trinket Mage package (+2 artifact lands) is a good replacement, help fixing colors and has a 2/2 body for 1 more mana. Searing Blaze - RR isn't easy in this Ur config unless in mid/late game, thinking on Gitaxian Probe. Rolling Thunder - 'win more' card, when going infinite your wizards have infinite power. Unless you are facing a turbofog this could be a Robe of Mirrors or Whispersilk Cloak - I prefer the first.
This way I'd have 25-26 wizards, 30 instants/sorceries, 35 lands, and 9-8 other cards.
Thoughts?
- Opal Palace, Ash Barrens, Path of Ancestry all the way.
- Replace Scrivener with Vedalken AEthermage. You will keep having 3 creatures searching instants and sorceries.
- Spore Frog looks meh compared to other fogs because it's not reusable and can be killed in your end step and you don't have access to reanimate (only Reclaim and Pulse of Murasa helps, maybe the latter justifies the frog).
- Explore looks subpar on paper when you talk ramp (oh but it has sinergy with your commander, never mind). Maybe Search for Tomorrow is a better option than some other.
- Traumatic Visions is cool too, can be a counter on late game.
- Secrets of the Golden City > Compulsive Research.
- If you go infinite, you might add Brain Freeze as a wincon. Tutorable with Muddle the Mixture. Merchant Scroll?
- Drift of Phantasms is relevant for you to fetch a blink engine or Capsize. Did I say Merchant Scroll?
- Is Elven Cache more than an OK option?
Agreed.
Agreed, taplands here are meh.
I agree on 17 lands tops and maybe more cantrips (I added Impulse), maybe adding the UR Panorama also among them (4 fetches helps to filter basics from your draws and replaces a basic instead of a good spell replaced by a slow wizard)... but the rest dilutes the aggro aspect of the deck. Needs playtesting.
I need to post my EDH here. Will do when my cards arrive.
Only 3-cost spell is Adeliz, fast (main cmc = 1.53) and lots of cantrips, evasions and burns.
Some spells were put to protect our pump engine. Hypergeometric calculator says we have 65% of chance of drawing one up to turn 5 on play. Also lands were select in a way there 92% of chance of having a red source by turn 3 on play. As a classic stompy player I think it can beat opponent fast enough...
1 Adeliz, the Cinder Wind
Wizards (13)
1 Delver of Secrets
1 Drifter Il-Dal
1 Ghitu Lavarunner
1 Wingcrafter
1 Augur of Bolas
1 Escape Artist
1 Goblin Electromancer
1 Hisoka's Guard
1 Pathmaker Initiate
1 Sanguinary Mage
1 Spellweaver Eternal
1 Stonybrook Bannaret
1 Thalakos Seer
1 Gitaxian Probe
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Preordain
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Chain Lightning
1 Firebolt
1 Flame Slash
1 Lava Spike
1 Rift Bolt
1 Shadow Rift
1 Defy Gravity
1 Artful Dodge
1 Impulse
1 Think Twice
1 Clout of the Dominus
1 Alexi's Cloak
1 Muddle the Mixture
1 Diplomatic Immunity
Lands (17)
1 Command Tower
1 Path of Ancestry
1 Ash Barrens
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Swiftwater Cliffs
1 Izzet Guildgate
1 Highland Lake
6 Island
3 Mountain
If we ignore conditional probability (and we shouldn't but then again, I'm lazy), one turn later, considering 5 ramp spells (R&S is too expensive) and Traumatic Visions the first splash color should be (98,19,10,1 = 89.7%). One turn later, for the 2nd splash color we should have (97,18,11,1 = 90.9%). All numbers are slightly greater when we are on play because the sample size increases by 1.
Sorry if I miscalculated anything. I know this approach is heavily biased because this way I'd ditch a Map when I could fetch a Bog or something but that's feasible to accomplish this - if I didn't screw too much on the math.
I agree with that. The packages should be 'core packages'. Anything else is a flex number of flex slots
The Krosan Tusker/Reap and Sow is an example of this. The semantics are important here for us to determine what one thinks it's vital to be in core and each package.
We need 1 green source in our first 9 cards, which is equivalent to 11 green sources in our 99-card deck. Mine has 16 counting all lands (12 if I don't count the 4 fetches) so I think I'm OK on this.
In addition to that, for any red or white color I have 4 fetches, a double dual, 2 basics, and Darksteel Ingot, which gives me 8 sources of splash colors, or 8/99 = .9696/12 ~ 1/12 = 1 source by turn 5 on the play. So with this config I am able to reach green with gold lands and without fetches by turn 3 and 1 splash color by turn 5 with fetches and without gold lands. So I need to ramp 1 splash color. In mid-to-late game I need as many UB sources as I can have so I can tweak my lifegain/double duals if/when I see I mana screw on this config, which I didn't realized yet.
This is the only drawback of having Costly Plunder, but we still have 3 (instead of 4) tutors to have it. IMO it's a good price for being uncounterable and response-proof. At least twice my opponent had Swords to Plowshares or Counterspell to screw my wipe, and these cards are useless with CP. Of course, one could counter it so I don't buy 2 cards
This is one of the very few Achille's Heels of this deck. This and GY hate are bad for us. But you can always exile Sun Titan or do the Spore Frog soft lock meanwhile so you can defend yourself using other cards in your example.
Multiplayer: Me too but obviously the combo is almost as primary as the wipe machine.
1v1: I realy almost exclusively on wiping once faster than the opponent establishes a position and then combo or capsize or beats.
Count me in
Yeah, and again, anything that slows us down on lands is a nonbo given we run 35 lands. The only concession I can make here is Gush because come on, it costs 0 to cast!
Well, we have 2 tiny differences between the brews (Distortion Strike/Trinket Mage vs Snap/Information Dealer). Great success!
Will test Trinket Mage also.
I agree with Rolling Thunder. It is clunky but it's excellent when you can cast it.
Other cards to consider: Distortion Strike (instead of Snap maybe), and Faerie Trickery (instead of Deprive).
So, according to this new taxonomy I am combo/far wanderings.
Some points from my experience:
- I have 67/73 of your core. But I disagree with some lands (only the UBG lifegain and double duals are core IMO), so I originally had your 73 minus Brainstorm, Preordain (had to let these two go because I was leaning to refer combo pieces than cantrips, rethinking now), Secrets of the Golden City, Opal Palace (totally forgot to put these!!), Golgari Rot Farm, Blossoming Sands, and Rugged Highlands (*). I'd add Dismal Backwater to my core. I will add the 3 first ones replacing most probably Scour from Existence, Primal Growth, and Costly Plunder (***). Still debating to add cantrips and ditching 2 sac outlets but I need to draw/dig as well... The (*) lands are replaced by the already existent Dismal Backwater and (not core but hey) Grixis Panorama and Esper Panorama. Opal Palace will replace an Island (***).
- I have the combo package, but as of now I use Mycosynth Wellspring, Disturbed Burial, and Vedalken AEthermage instead of Farhaven Elf (depends on green, more expensive, more prone to spot removal, but works with Displace), Urborg Uprising (I prefer the buyback option, more straightforward as you said), and Mnemonic Wall (more clunky but I can filter the deck and look for Sidisi's Faithful as well, actually I think it should be core because of these search possibilities and reuse of it just like any transmute creature card).
- I have the Far Wanderings mana base but using Reap and Sow instead of Krosan Tusker (tutoring utility lands or double ones to combo with the Faerie is more priority than ramping because I already have some spells to do it).
The 8 remaining slots are 2 sac outlets (Pyroblast and Wretched Gryff), 2 control (Spore Frog and Unmake), 2 ramp (Crop Rotation and Traumatic Visions), 1 draw/dig (Foresee) and 1 land (Island).
I am still calculating things to see if everything is fine but IMO it is
Thanks again!
(***) Edit:
Costly Plunder came in again as a uncounterable and response-proof sac outlet, safer than Perilous Research, which comes out of the deck as of now.
The (*) lands are replaced by the already existent Dismal Backwater and (not core but hey) Naya Panorama. Opal Palace will replace the Grixis Panorama.
Distant Melody is out, Vedalken Dismisser is in again, you convinced me on this (but not Sphinx's Disciple - 26 wizards if you count the tutor one).
Things I think they might not be optimal in this deck and possible replacements:
Information Dealer - the weakest ability, 1/1 body, and needs the wizard untapped, and is as situational as Distant Melody exactly for the same reason. maybe the Trinket Mage package (+2 artifact lands) is a good replacement, help fixing colors and has a 2/2 body for 1 more mana.
Searing Blaze - RR isn't easy in this Ur config unless in mid/late game, thinking on Gitaxian Probe.
Rolling Thunder - 'win more' card, when going infinite your wizards have infinite power. Unless you are facing a turbofog this could be a Robe of Mirrors or Whispersilk Cloak - I prefer the first.
This way I'd have 25-26 wizards, 30 instants/sorceries, 35 lands, and 9-8 other cards.
Thoughts?
1 Adeliz, the Cinder Wind
Wizards (25)
1 Wingcrafter
2 Augur of Bolas
2 Cephalid Scout
2 Goblin Electromancer
2 Passwall Adept
2 Pathmaker Initiate
2 Sanguinary Mage
2 Stonybrook Banneret
2 Thalakos Seer
2 Voidmage Apprentice
3 Aven Wind Mage
3 AEther Adept
3 Neurok Invisimancer
3 Sea Gate Oracle
3 Trinket Mage
3 Warden of Evos Isle
3 Wee Dragonauts
4 Archaeomancer
4 Separatist Voidmage
5 Academy Journeymage
5 Covert Operative
5 Salvager of Secrets
5 Izzet Chronarch
5 Wind Strider
6 Vedalken Dismisser
Other Spells (8)
1 Clout of the Dominus
1 Robe of Mirrors
2 Neurok Stealthsuit
2 Alexi's Cloak
2 Diplomatic Immunity
2 Vedalken AEthermage
3 Drift of Phantasms
5 Mulldrifter
1 Gitaxian Probe
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Preordain
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Chain Lightning
1 Firebolt
1 Flame Slash
1 Vapor Snag
1 Shadow Rift
1 Defy Gravity
1 Artful Dodge
1 Gigadrowse
1 Distortion Strike
2 Impulse
2 Merchant Scroll
2 Jilt
2 Shattering Pulse
2 Counterspell
2 Muddle the Mixture
3 Exclude
3 Staggershock
3 Faerie Trickery
3 Secrets of the Golden City
3 Capsize
3 Displace
3 Ghostly Flicker
4 Deep Analysis
5 Traumatic Visions
5 Gush
8 Treasure Cruise
1 Command Tower
1 Path of Ancestry
1 Opal Palace
1 Rupture Spire
1 Transguild Promenade
1 Gateway Plaza
1 Ash Barrens
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Grixis Panorama
1 Warped Landscape
1 Swiftwater Cliffs
1 Izzet Guildgate
1 Highland Lake
1 Halimar Depths
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Great Furnace
13 Island
5 Mountain
Is Shattering Pulse a thing? What do you think about Seething Anger?
Tutors are never enough in commander. You should run Drift of Phantasms, Fiery Fall, and Traumatic Visions, the two last ones being useful in late game.
Is 3 protection spells enough for you? What about Aboshan's Desire, Diplomatic Immunity, Mystic Veil, and Robe of Mirrors? Protective Bubble is better but expensive.
Manalith is meh compared to the other 2 rocks we can use.