Please enlighten me as to how turn 3 bargain kills are very good out of SI when SI is already pushing a turn 1 win rate of 65% and almost a surefire turn 2 kill. If you're spending 6 mana on bargain, why not play belcher and activate for one mana more FTW? Because belcher rarely fizzles out.
Like I said before I played it at the latest in turn 3. It is no strictly SI-list but a SI-similar-list. It got also the ability to kill turn 1... I also said it wasn't something that was tuned or fine tuned at all like SI is for many Years! But I just "built" a decklist which is without doubt able to kill turn 1-3 easyly without working at it for years... so I can't give you a win percentage for each turn! but I think if you drop YB on turn 1 the win percentage might be at 90% or above because I never fizzled when Yawgmoth's Bargain hit the field...
Maybe you just don't want to see what potential this card has and you may be too adapted to decklists that are present in these days ... because it also must not be included in a storm deck at all, in a W/B control based deck, it would also be a nice inclusion I think... there are even more possibilities which I also don't see, but with so much awesome legacy player's getting something like YB back I'm sure there would be decks which were good enough to beat every deck currently played. (even if this is only my opinion but I believe it would be like this)
Don't even mention playing bargain in spanish inquisition. You resolve a D4 and bargain suddenly becomes infinitely worse. You resolve 2 D4's? Bargain is 6 mana to draw 3 cards, which is incredibly fair and just bad in a deck as volatile as spanish inquisition. 6 mana isn't easy to obtain either unless you're already winning generally.
That's just not true. I think your stuck to the decklists currently played by SI or ANT...
I tried to build a deck that fits Yawgmoth's Bargain in a Spanish Inquisition similar shell and it worked quite nice. I mean I casted YB in 8 out of 10 games in 3rd turn latest. And there are so much ways of putting it in on turn one. Well I agree if you play a D4 before landing YB thats right, but if you get YB first its just win. If you get it out first turn ( which is ridiculously often possible) you're at 20 life drawing 16 cards. You got to four and still can cast 2 D4 to get 8 cards for 3 life... (means you draw 24 cards at the cost of 12 B-Mana and 19 life). If you just chain D4's it means you can only draw 16 for 12B-Mana and 19 life. Advantage YB. I admit that 6 B-Mana are harder to get instead of 3 for a D4, but YB is a constant thread. I mean for example I have a sample Hand with: Ornithopter, Culling the Weak, Swamp, Dark RitualYawgmoth's Bargain, Tendrils of Agony, Night's Whisper. Land-->Orni-->Culling-->Dark Ritual--> Bargain--> draw cards to get Mox Diamond or Chrome Mox play them-->more rituals--> Tendrils for lethal. Or if Tendril's don't happen to be lethal at this time just play it anyways and draw even more cards...
Ad Nauseum won't do that!
And that was nothing really well planned only a short brainstorming of what might be possible.
Decklist was something like that: (As I said nothing really tuned just a thought)
Well now as I look at it I see there could also be LED and Infernal Tutor package.
Again this is no fine tuned deck at all I just built something that could play Bargain without problems...
I think I'd like to see Frantic Search unbanned too, but it's only because I play Spiral tide... well it would be nuts to have the option on Frantic Search and I think that is the reason why it is still banned. I mean you make an hilarious amount of mana and sculpt your hand with it at CMC 3 which is really ridicoulous in this deck. I think this a main reason why FS is still banned and will stay in this status.
And also Memory Jar is no option to be unbanned... I mean Kuldotha Forgemaster combo would get a sick advantage of it ( but perhaps I'm wrong and it would just be a winmore card).
Like I said before there are plenty of cards on the list which don't seem to be that hard on its own but in the right decks they do some crazy stuff and are banned for those reasons.
I think the deck isn't dominating because people just simply aren't playing it for whatever reason, if competent players pick the deck up there is a definite possibility that Omni-Clash becomes a more dominating force. The deck is definitely a lot more scary than you give it credit for and I would not be surprised if this is the deck that finally gets S&T banned.
@ Feaor
Well if this deck is THAT good what is the reason it isn't played by everybody?? I mean there are some things you maybe don't consider in your posts: You also have an opponent to play against. I think yeah 8 counterspells sound good but 4 of them are Force of Will 4 others are Daze or Spell Pierce. FoW has to pitch another card to be cast Daze and Spell Pierce are no hardcounterspells. And looking at some Hand disruption decks i think these 8 counterpells aren't always enough to protect the main pieces of the deck. Enter the Infinite still needs to resolve and Omniscience makes it cost no mana but not uncounterable. So having it in hand and playing it still doesn't mean to resolve it. In a post before I made a Goldfish hand which is able to go off turn 1 IF you are on the play, and if you have all these cards in hand. But thats not the way it works everytime!
I also like Young Pyromancer and wouldn't it be nice to have something with battlecry in there to push the elementals, like Signal Pest? or is that a waste of slots?
A word of advice: Don't advocate cheating in tournaments. End of story.
Well then I think I have to quote myself which is kind of awkward, but anywas...
I'm not saying you should do that or that it is fair[...]I said it could be done not that it is a fairplay tactic or anything else!
Means I don't want to suggest anybody to cheat in any game! I just wanted to show a possibility...
I share Alleyway Jack's opinion with Omniscience. It is powerfull but far away from overpowered. I mean let's make a possible goldfish hand for Omnitell: Ancient Tomb, Lotus Petal, Show and Tell, Omniscience, Brainstorm, Force of Will, anything.
Sick but possible hand.
So you begin with sol land--> petal--> SnT I try to counter with FoW you answer with FoW. SnT resolves you put in Omniscience I put Ensnaring Bridge on the table for example. You play Emi and i'm not a bit nervous... I mean this is maybe the sickest hand you can get in Omnitell and is not that possible often and I have still some reactions which save me time to get rid of the threats you play... Well ok I admit i was just thinking of what is possible not to say that this will happen in any match, but it is possible
Thats the fact in legacy you have so much answers to anything that nothing is dominating the whole tournament scene at the moment.
That's the reason why I think there is no reason to bann SnT.
Well I am happy with the current state of the banned list of legacy.
Well even if we look at the cards which don't enable sick combos like Hermit Druid, Mind's Desire or something like that: Mental Misstep is ****ing up the whole format hitting so much cards! or Gush is like "oh **** you wasteland I protect my duals and get 2 cards extra =D" I mean these cards are no stand alone cards, but they would have a massive impact on the whole game and that is the point why they need to stay/be banned... And Show and Tell doesn't do that --> no banning
I'm not saying you should do that or that it is fair and i said you will get a warning... I read a tournament decision where this was ruled and the player got a warning... also you can't just claim that the player wanted to cheat intentionally....I said it could be done not that it is a fairplay tactic or anything else! And I don't want to suggest anybody to do this in tournament, I just said there is the possibility for doing this not more! But besides that there are some more things to do against SNT like discarding or counter it. even ensnaring bridge is preventing you from an attack of emrakul or progenitus. And SNT like said before needs the second card to get the job done, which also needs to be in his hand, so I don't think it's a card that needs a banning.
I think SNT is not that overpowered to be banned. You can for example cheat play against SNT... just show an illegal card for example like a Planeswalker. When he shows his Emrakul, the Aeon's Torn game will be returned to the point where you showed an illegal card, then just show Oblivion Ring or Gilded Drake or something and there is no problem... except the warning maybe ^^
There's also a 5th High tide in the sideboard. I think you just don't have to do anything against Spiral tide... just wait for them comboing playing brainfreeze if the have enough storm count, in response play brainfreeze yourself followed by a BSZ for 1: GG
I think combo decks like Spanish Inquisition, Belcher or ANT may also get around the lock but for this you have still enough discard disruption I guess. Beating face with tokens carrying jitte or batterskull seems nice enough to me =)
I like the Idea of the deck because I love Contamination... but whats your plan against The Gate or Pox? They are just not impressed by your lock, are there any other options? Don't get me wrong I like the deck but thats just a thought when you try to get this deck to competitive/established...
Greetings Heskatet
Well I forrgot the second part of Grafdigger's Cage well that sucks a lot so it isn't an option at all!
Ok I see I may not need the disruption but I need something for protection, so what can I do? Well 4-5 slots with Pyroblast effects are definitely in. But what do I do against Hand disruption? In some cases it doesn't bother me because I have Past in Flames, but I have trouble if he discards all my Rituals... what can I do? maybe Library of Leng ?
Like I said before I played it at the latest in turn 3. It is no strictly SI-list but a SI-similar-list. It got also the ability to kill turn 1... I also said it wasn't something that was tuned or fine tuned at all like SI is for many Years! But I just "built" a decklist which is without doubt able to kill turn 1-3 easyly without working at it for years... so I can't give you a win percentage for each turn! but I think if you drop YB on turn 1 the win percentage might be at 90% or above because I never fizzled when Yawgmoth's Bargain hit the field...
Maybe you just don't want to see what potential this card has and you may be too adapted to decklists that are present in these days ... because it also must not be included in a storm deck at all, in a W/B control based deck, it would also be a nice inclusion I think... there are even more possibilities which I also don't see, but with so much awesome legacy player's getting something like YB back I'm sure there would be decks which were good enough to beat every deck currently played. (even if this is only my opinion but I believe it would be like this)
Greetings Heskatet
That's just not true. I think your stuck to the decklists currently played by SI or ANT...
I tried to build a deck that fits Yawgmoth's Bargain in a Spanish Inquisition similar shell and it worked quite nice. I mean I casted YB in 8 out of 10 games in 3rd turn latest. And there are so much ways of putting it in on turn one. Well I agree if you play a D4 before landing YB thats right, but if you get YB first its just win. If you get it out first turn ( which is ridiculously often possible) you're at 20 life drawing 16 cards. You got to four and still can cast 2 D4 to get 8 cards for 3 life... (means you draw 24 cards at the cost of 12 B-Mana and 19 life). If you just chain D4's it means you can only draw 16 for 12B-Mana and 19 life. Advantage YB. I admit that 6 B-Mana are harder to get instead of 3 for a D4, but YB is a constant thread. I mean for example I have a sample Hand with: Ornithopter, Culling the Weak, Swamp, Dark Ritual Yawgmoth's Bargain, Tendrils of Agony, Night's Whisper. Land-->Orni-->Culling-->Dark Ritual--> Bargain--> draw cards to get Mox Diamond or Chrome Mox play them-->more rituals--> Tendrils for lethal. Or if Tendril's don't happen to be lethal at this time just play it anyways and draw even more cards...
Ad Nauseum won't do that!
And that was nothing really well planned only a short brainstorming of what might be possible.
Decklist was something like that: (As I said nothing really tuned just a thought)
4x Mox Diamond
3x Mox Opal
4x Dark Ritual
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Culling the Weak
4x Ornithopter
4x Shield Sphere
4x Yawgmoth's Bargain
3x Diabolic Intent
3x Night's whisper
4x Tendril's of Agony
4x Infernal Contract
11x Swamp
Well now as I look at it I see there could also be LED and Infernal Tutor package.
Again this is no fine tuned deck at all I just built something that could play Bargain without problems...
But I think all people are of the opinion of Lord Rewind that we are solely discuss WHY it is banned and not why it should be unbanned...
Although it is a special use in an quite untested deck I think mostly those cards aren't really playable in legacy...
Greetings Heskatet
And also Memory Jar is no option to be unbanned... I mean Kuldotha Forgemaster combo would get a sick advantage of it ( but perhaps I'm wrong and it would just be a winmore card).
Like I said before there are plenty of cards on the list which don't seem to be that hard on its own but in the right decks they do some crazy stuff and are banned for those reasons.
Yawgmoth's Bargain also needs to stay banned! I mean you can build so much nonsense around it and it would still work. Ad Nauseum seems quite weak against YB. and also if you just make a B/W build with it and add Words of Worship it's hilarious with all the other cards you can get in B/W ( Vindicate, Thoughtseize, Hymn to Tourach, Swords to Plowshares etc.)
@ Feaor
Well if this deck is THAT good what is the reason it isn't played by everybody?? I mean there are some things you maybe don't consider in your posts: You also have an opponent to play against. I think yeah 8 counterspells sound good but 4 of them are Force of Will 4 others are Daze or Spell Pierce. FoW has to pitch another card to be cast Daze and Spell Pierce are no hardcounterspells. And looking at some Hand disruption decks i think these 8 counterpells aren't always enough to protect the main pieces of the deck. Enter the Infinite still needs to resolve and Omniscience makes it cost no mana but not uncounterable. So having it in hand and playing it still doesn't mean to resolve it. In a post before I made a Goldfish hand which is able to go off turn 1 IF you are on the play, and if you have all these cards in hand. But thats not the way it works everytime!
Greetings Heskatet
Well then I think I have to quote myself which is kind of awkward, but anywas...
Means I don't want to suggest anybody to cheat in any game! I just wanted to show a possibility...
I share Alleyway Jack's opinion with Omniscience. It is powerfull but far away from overpowered. I mean let's make a possible goldfish hand for Omnitell: Ancient Tomb, Lotus Petal, Show and Tell, Omniscience, Brainstorm, Force of Will, anything.
Sick but possible hand.
So you begin with sol land--> petal--> SnT I try to counter with FoW you answer with FoW. SnT resolves you put in Omniscience I put Ensnaring Bridge on the table for example. You play Emi and i'm not a bit nervous... I mean this is maybe the sickest hand you can get in Omnitell and is not that possible often and I have still some reactions which save me time to get rid of the threats you play... Well ok I admit i was just thinking of what is possible not to say that this will happen in any match, but it is possible
Thats the fact in legacy you have so much answers to anything that nothing is dominating the whole tournament scene at the moment.
That's the reason why I think there is no reason to bann SnT.
Just some thoughts of me
Greetings Heskatet
Well I am happy with the current state of the banned list of legacy.
Well even if we look at the cards which don't enable sick combos like Hermit Druid, Mind's Desire or something like that: Mental Misstep is ****ing up the whole format hitting so much cards! or Gush is like "oh **** you wasteland I protect my duals and get 2 cards extra =D" I mean these cards are no stand alone cards, but they would have a massive impact on the whole game and that is the point why they need to stay/be banned... And Show and Tell doesn't do that --> no banning
Only My opinion =)
I think SNT is not that overpowered to be banned. You can for example cheat play against SNT... just show an illegal card for example like a Planeswalker. When he shows his Emrakul, the Aeon's Torn game will be returned to the point where you showed an illegal card, then just show Oblivion Ring or Gilded Drake or something and there is no problem... except the warning maybe ^^
Greetings Heskatet
Greetings Heskatet
Then with a Plains in deck to even hardcast Gaddock Teeg , Wild Nacatl would have a right to be played.
Greetings Heskatet
Ok I see I may not need the disruption but I need something for protection, so what can I do? Well 4-5 slots with Pyroblast effects are definitely in. But what do I do against Hand disruption? In some cases it doesn't bother me because I have Past in Flames, but I have trouble if he discards all my Rituals... what can I do? maybe Library of Leng ?