Hello everyone I have not been as a I've a member of the group as I should have but I am definitely an active player of the deck. I originally started plying when I dcider to return to the modern scene about 2 years ago. I experimented with the BG version then I moved and added blue for the explosiveness that heron crab and the other discard outlets offer the deck. That deck lasted me for over a year but after playing alot (more Tha. I probably should have) I realized the gigantic flaw with the deck, I wasn't losing to graveyard hate as much as I was straight up losing to disruption. For example how often would a turn one bird or crab or even a turn 2 troll get blown up and you look at your hand and go.... well that set me back 3 turns. My conclusion is that i decided to put the deck back together so it would be much more resilient. I believe I have achieved ed that and th e list I'm about to post is the list I will keep you posted on after my Tuesday night modern events and gp Boston this upcoming weekend. (Warning it has been.a while since I mad deck tags and I am also doing this from my phone. If I screw up I will fix it tomorrow after the modern event)
The Rock is an old deck that was made back in the Urza block, and I have seen some appearances recently, notably in modern worlds. Rock is typically a green/black deck that is more or less aggro-control. Normally it uses mana dorks to accelerate in to 4-5 cmc drops that win games. It uses removal, discard and other tools to generate card advantage.
There are no really good dorks post rotation atm. Arbor Elf would have been a good choice with shock lands, but they are rotating out. Deathrite Shaman is ok, but unless you are facing mill, or do a decent amount of discard, generally is a poor mana dork in standard.
As for Sanguine Bond I thought about making a bond-blood combo deck, but there are far to slow and fragile. It would fail against aggro and control has ways of bouncing/countering/removing. Against Midrange it could be ok, but I see many more control and aggro decks out there.
My original design for the deck was a post-rotation lifegain deck that used Sanguine Bond as a finisher, however I found that it generally didn't do well enough. So I morphed it into a rock deck. I kept 2x Sanguine Bond because I love the flavor of the card and it can just wreck people. However, it rarely won me games, but did destabilize things. I decided to keep 1 because it pairs so very well with Obzedat, Ghost Counsil and later in the game Fiendslayer Paladin with a few counters on it becomes and absolute beast and paired with Sanguine Bond pushes him over the top.
I realize what the rock is. matter of fact I am an avid player of its standard counterpart at the moment. The problem I see with what you are building is that the rock in standard is very much a black based control deck using card advantage like mutilate and sign in blood to put you ahead of your opponent.
Without a reliable board sweep in junk I do not see a viable "rock" strategy in the mana-base you suggest.
ALSO: I know what cards to look for in my hand in games 2 and 3 against a known opponent. But I'd love some advice on what to look for game 1 against an unknown opponent. At least 1 creature, at least 2 removal, and at least 2 land?
Yeah opening hands are weird.
I would suggest a three land hand, just because missing a land drop is pretty bad in any controley deck, and it has hurt me in the past. Missing my 3rd land drop with a geralf's messenger in hand is just painful.
but general rule of thumb 2 removal 3 land and at least 1 creature.
The last card can be whatever, it would be best if it was a walker or another creature, but a third removal spell is fine as well
Has anyone faced Voice of Resurgence yet? What is the best way to handle it? I haven't seen it yet, but I think the best thing to do is to leave it alone and focus on playing bigger stuff, or wiping the board and dealing with it afterwards. It is only a 2/2 to start off, so it really isn't going to pressure you by itself. I am going to start testing against the new Junk Aristocrats and Naya decks that feature this guy, as I think we are going to be seeing a ton of those decks coming up.
I think our deck is well positioned against it, but it is such a scary card--has anyone faced the new Junk Aristocrats? How was the match up?
Unfortunately the Voice of resurgence is not a card you play around, rather it tells you how to play (there is a reason it is really good). From my playtesting tho i have found that the best way to deal with it is to kill it asap. It limits your mobility as a semi control player alot and if you can just board wipe after it comes out you are in pretty good shape. Luckily we are not playing blue because all those instant speed can-trips make voice a nightmare for them.
What are people's thoughts on Golgari Charm? I have 3 in my sideboard and I side them in in many match ups--the card is amazing.
Against aggro--side out 3 cremates. You can kill multiple creatures--Boros Elite, Mayor of Avabruck, Champion of the Parish and Experiment One (when on the play), Lighting Mauler, mana dorks, Blood Artist, you get the point. In the aggro match up its basically just try to survive to turn 4 (Mutilate) or 5 (Thragtusk) and the charm has helped me get there numerous times. Just preventing 3 or 4 damage from a horde of attackers has let me stabilize when I would have otherwise been dead.
The card is nuts against Lingering Souls--if you don't have a Mutilate the souls tokens are a pain to get rid of. You don't want to waste spot removal, but for 2 mana you can get rid of all those pesky spirits.
The destroy enchantment can be useful against Jund if they have Deadbridge Chant, can blow up Oblivion Rings, Detention Spheres, and Assemble the Legion and is an obvious inclusion against Bant Hexproof.
Oh, and you can regenerate all creatures you control. Which can save a Desecration Demon (the only threat without built in protection) or can save your whole team against a Bonfire, or Supreme Verdict.
It is a great utility card in the sideboard that can come in against aggro decks (replacing the 3 Cremates or Sign in Bloods), control decks with sweepers (replacing spot removal/abrupt decays) or midrange (replacing victim of night/abrupt decay/cremate , depending on match up).
Anyone else been using this card?
It is funny that this got mentioned I really like the card too and i have debating its effectiveness in the SB It is really strong vs multiple decks and its obviously in our colors. I have been thinking of replacing the curse of deaths hold with it just because it does a lot of what that card does three turns earlier and still offers enchantment destruction and regen for the rare combat situation.
I will try it tomorrow at fnm in the SB and see how it does
In regards to your list, I like where it's going as a Jund control deck, but you're moving away from a rock shell. I think the Rock for standard needs the disciple engine to maintain the massive card advantage the deck has. Getting a disciple for 6-7 on turn 5 is so good. There is no other deck that can do that in standard right now. Bant can do that on turns 7-8 with a far seek or two. But in that matchup we already have better threats and better answers to their threats.
I don't think we're afraid of Voice either. Unless its in multiples, we can just sweep and drop Demon and close the game out from there.
I agree completely, and i agree with your thoughts on DRS mostly. I feel like it does a lot of work in some matchups. For example against aggressive decks it is a dead card in many situations, and by dead i dont mean usless, i just mean she should be a removal spell. But in the control match-ups she is dirty. I defiantly don't think it fulfills a thragtusk slot but i does replace removal in some matchups becasue she is a card that control needs to get rid of but does not want to.
Explain to me how the ooze works in "The Rock" game plan? It will die to mutilate early game and takes up a piece of the curve that provides needed removal and card draw. maybe after full rotation it can replace something. At this point I think it's too hard to call yet.
I'm just more than thrilled to see this card in standard. However you need to realize that it actually fits our game plan more than it doesn't. It is an early drop that dies to mutilate i give you that, but what else does it take away from us? It will change our game plan if this becomes a relevant card post rotation (which i believe it will), but post rotation we lose mutilate anyways unless it gets a reprint. It provides an early threat that must be removed, can be pumped to fix dead bridge pulls, hate vs decks utilizing graveyards, and on top of that he gains you life to prolong those grindy matchups. ATM if we dis-consider the rest of m14 i dont know if he is an auto in but with the possible loss of mutilate and thragtusk he offers a way to continue the Rock as a viable standard deck.
Very strong aggressive mill list utilizing breaking, and the other cheap mill card to pump phantasms. Lost game 1 due to underestimating the deck, he dropped almost all of his hand to mill me around 25 and then snapcaster twice to mill for game. I had no time to stabilize and when i did it really didn't matter he just milled some more with 5/5 jace's phantasms on the board for defense. Game two i kept a more aggressive hand and sided out the deadbridge chant and won easily. Game 3 was interesting he had me down to 11 cards in my library with his suite and drownard but then i got a liliana ulti off and I took away his win condition.
Round 2: Lotleth jund (2/0)
New deck utilizing lotleth and all his cheap buddies like vexing devil. I won easily. He was not to happy with me cremating targets like vexing devil and Mutilating his board often.
Round 3: homebrew grixis (0/2)
Game 1 he just eliminated all my threats and got a really early Tamyo ulti off i tried to grind but then realized how pointless grinding was when he had infinite card advantage. Game 2 was more realistic. Got equal threats, I cremated some sapcaster targets and popped his tamiyo with vraska. Played chant and the grind fest began. Problem was he resolved aetherling with almost 9 mana open and 3 blockers. I just could not compete even though i was resloving a thragtusk or desecration deamon with chant quite freakquently. All i can say is me and my opponent were having a great time and deadbridge chant is really scary for opponents i guess I am just Glad i didnt have to pick a random every turn.
Round 4: Jund (2/1)
Lets just say I lost game 1 and won game 2
Now game 3 was the grind fest of the century he resolved a turn 6 sire of insanity right after i resolved my deadbridge chant and had me on a 2 turn clock with wolfrun on the board. Top decked a mutilate with 5 swamps after my dead bridge chant trigger to wipe his threats. He topdecked a bonfire for a bunch and i was at 5 he was at 18 i got a demon and sign in blood next turn and let the grindfest continue. Game went to time but i was able to pull out a win last second with relentless tokens.
I'm not quite sure why he has difficulty with control either ... Played right this deck should go toe to toe with it and grind out control. You make a good point with the early creature drops.. Il ha e to test that. But for your question about geralfs and nighthawk I understand the dilemma but if you think about it that second body Gerald gives you is all the difference being able to trade even with a thragtusk or surviving your own mutilate board wipe gives you much more versatility in a deck were that is what we are all about.
Did some building today in preparation for next FNM and realized that my garruk relentless were not included any where in the deck... threw a few in and liked the interactions it gave the deck.
Any reasons they were not included in the other versions you posted of your decks?
Hey Ben Delat, could you post or add your sideboard choices for the matches if you remember im assuming duress vs control and appetite for brains vs Jund and other midrange but when did you side in the extra disciple of bolas,and the reasoning behind some of them
4 vengeviNE
4 Gravecrawler
4 bloodghast
4 lotleth troll
4 tarmogoyf
1 tymaret, the murder king
1 golgari thug
4 birds of paradise
3 stinkweed imps
3 abrupt decay
2 lightning bolt
2 lightning axe
4 faithless looting
Land
4 blood crypt
4 verdant catacombs
1 swamp
2 forest
1 stomping ground
4 overgrown tomb
I'll be back to finish, phone is too frustrating
I realize what the rock is. matter of fact I am an avid player of its standard counterpart at the moment. The problem I see with what you are building is that the rock in standard is very much a black based control deck using card advantage like mutilate and sign in blood to put you ahead of your opponent.
Without a reliable board sweep in junk I do not see a viable "rock" strategy in the mana-base you suggest.
because thats what t looks like.... if your trying to play sanguine bond do that and run 4 and 4 vizcopa guildmage along with exquisite blood
i feel to make this deck strong a decision ahs to be made... do you go midrange or control?
Yeah opening hands are weird.
I would suggest a three land hand, just because missing a land drop is pretty bad in any controley deck, and it has hurt me in the past. Missing my 3rd land drop with a geralf's messenger in hand is just painful.
but general rule of thumb 2 removal 3 land and at least 1 creature.
The last card can be whatever, it would be best if it was a walker or another creature, but a third removal spell is fine as well
Unfortunately the Voice of resurgence is not a card you play around, rather it tells you how to play (there is a reason it is really good). From my playtesting tho i have found that the best way to deal with it is to kill it asap. It limits your mobility as a semi control player alot and if you can just board wipe after it comes out you are in pretty good shape. Luckily we are not playing blue because all those instant speed can-trips make voice a nightmare for them.
It is funny that this got mentioned I really like the card too and i have debating its effectiveness in the SB It is really strong vs multiple decks and its obviously in our colors. I have been thinking of replacing the curse of deaths hold with it just because it does a lot of what that card does three turns earlier and still offers enchantment destruction and regen for the rare combat situation.
I will try it tomorrow at fnm in the SB and see how it does
I agree completely, and i agree with your thoughts on DRS mostly. I feel like it does a lot of work in some matchups. For example against aggressive decks it is a dead card in many situations, and by dead i dont mean usless, i just mean she should be a removal spell. But in the control match-ups she is dirty. I defiantly don't think it fulfills a thragtusk slot but i does replace removal in some matchups becasue she is a card that control needs to get rid of but does not want to.
I'm just more than thrilled to see this card in standard. However you need to realize that it actually fits our game plan more than it doesn't. It is an early drop that dies to mutilate i give you that, but what else does it take away from us? It will change our game plan if this becomes a relevant card post rotation (which i believe it will), but post rotation we lose mutilate anyways unless it gets a reprint. It provides an early threat that must be removed, can be pumped to fix dead bridge pulls, hate vs decks utilizing graveyards, and on top of that he gains you life to prolong those grindy matchups. ATM if we dis-consider the rest of m14 i dont know if he is an auto in but with the possible loss of mutilate and thragtusk he offers a way to continue the Rock as a viable standard deck.
scavenging ooze
Could this change the way the "rock" gets played now that it is in standard?
4 Geralf's Messenger
1 Disciple of Bolas
4 Desecration Demon
4 Thragtusk
Instants:
3 Tragic Slip
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Victim of Night
2 Putrefy
3 Cremate
3 Sign in Blood
Enchantments:
2 Deadbridge Chant
Planeswalker:
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 garruk relentless
Land:
2 Golgari Guildgate
4 Woodland Cemetery
4 Overgrown Tomb
14 Swamp
1 Cremate
4 Duress
3 Appetite for Brains
1 Vraska the Unseen
1 Mutilate
1 Rot Farm Skeleton
1 abrupt decay
1 tribute to hunger
Round 1: Aggro Mill (2/1)
Very strong aggressive mill list utilizing breaking, and the other cheap mill card to pump phantasms. Lost game 1 due to underestimating the deck, he dropped almost all of his hand to mill me around 25 and then snapcaster twice to mill for game. I had no time to stabilize and when i did it really didn't matter he just milled some more with 5/5 jace's phantasms on the board for defense. Game two i kept a more aggressive hand and sided out the deadbridge chant and won easily. Game 3 was interesting he had me down to 11 cards in my library with his suite and drownard but then i got a liliana ulti off and I took away his win condition.
Round 2: Lotleth jund (2/0)
New deck utilizing lotleth and all his cheap buddies like vexing devil. I won easily. He was not to happy with me cremating targets like vexing devil and Mutilating his board often.
Round 3: homebrew grixis (0/2)
Game 1 he just eliminated all my threats and got a really early Tamyo ulti off i tried to grind but then realized how pointless grinding was when he had infinite card advantage. Game 2 was more realistic. Got equal threats, I cremated some sapcaster targets and popped his tamiyo with vraska. Played chant and the grind fest began. Problem was he resolved aetherling with almost 9 mana open and 3 blockers. I just could not compete even though i was resloving a thragtusk or desecration deamon with chant quite freakquently. All i can say is me and my opponent were having a great time and deadbridge chant is really scary for opponents i guess I am just Glad i didnt have to pick a random every turn.
Round 4: Jund (2/1)
Lets just say I lost game 1 and won game 2
Now game 3 was the grind fest of the century he resolved a turn 6 sire of insanity right after i resolved my deadbridge chant and had me on a 2 turn clock with wolfrun on the board. Top decked a mutilate with 5 swamps after my dead bridge chant trigger to wipe his threats. He topdecked a bonfire for a bunch and i was at 5 he was at 18 i got a demon and sign in blood next turn and let the grindfest continue. Game went to time but i was able to pull out a win last second with relentless tokens.
Any reasons they were not included in the other versions you posted of your decks?