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  • posted a message on Rise of the Gatewatch
    Not for long...
    Well, obviously. IIRC Freyalise and Windgrace are the only ones that survived Apocalypse. Everyone else either dies on Phyrexia or dies when Yawgmoth himself invades Dominaria. Except for Tevesh Szat who... got turned into a bomb? That can't be right, right? Old MtG lore sure was wacky.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Rise of the Gatewatch
    Quote from Leaf »
    Ah yes, the first planeswalker team, I remember the Gatewatch when they were called "The Eight Titans" during the war for Dominaria against the Phyrexian invasion. /sarcasm
    Pretty sure there were 9 titans.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on [POLL] Planeswalkers as playable generals
    The difference is you were suggesting Cryo was playing the game wrong - based on my experience, I'm fairly certain he isn't, and the point is in this situation it's not for you to say one way or another. Knowingly slamming a ton of proliferate, counter spam and degeneracy into a deck to crush your casual meta with and expecting them to be cool with it is a whole different kettle of fish, and I think you know it.

    At any rate, I'm done with this discussion if this is the level of rhetoric we've hit. If you want to bring it up a couple levels and speak to people like equals let us all know.
    So let me just break this down real quick to make sure I'm understanding you correctly. Cryo, before the game has even started, decides he doesn't like Player A's general and is going to spend the whole game targeting Player A even if it is detrimental to his own chances of winning. Acceptable behavior! On the other hand, Player Z sits down with his full combo Animar deck against 3 opponents playing out-of-the box precons and beats them all handedly. Problematic behavior! Well gosh, I sure am glad you told me the proper way to ruin a game. It would have been mighty embarrassing if I did it the wrong way. I guess the secret is to only ruin it for one person at a time. You know, the gentlemanly way! It gives it that personal touch.

    If you don't want me to respond to you like you're a child, don't say stupid *****. Apparently that's difficult for some people, though...
    The Immortal Sun? Could we see a ban
    ...Oh for ****'s sake.

    Okay, hit me with the warning.
    Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
  • posted a message on [POLL] Planeswalkers as playable generals
    80-90% of people don't have a great concept of accurately assessing threats, so what Cryo describes here is far from new and unexpected.
    Oh, are we just going to start making up numbers now?

    Also:
    Besides, it's his deck, his game, he can play it how he wants without having to worry about your assessment of whether he is doing it right.
    But I've seen enough gross builds to know there's a ton of casual players out there who will throw whatever grossness they want in a deck 'for lolz' with nary a thought to how their meta will respond, and giving them free reign on abusing walkers seems like opening a floodgate for degeneracy and unfun games.
    So which is it? Am I allowed to play however I want because it's my deck and not have to care about anyone else, or does that seem like opening a floodgate for degeneracy and unfun games?
    Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
  • posted a message on [POLL] Planeswalkers as playable generals
    Quote from cryogen »
    I don't know how you play games, but I'm not going to sit around and wait for an opponent to get an emblem that makes all their stuff indestructible, or all their creatures kill an opponent on combat damage, or restart the game, or counter my first spell every turn. If that means I have bad threat assessment, then guilty as charged. But I take offence to that accusation. I also didn't say that I would kill that player first, just that I would do my best to make sure their general didn't stick (which sometimes but not always means eliminating them first).
    But you also say things like:
    Quote from cryogen »
    I really dislike Commander games where there is one player who is a giant threat before the game begins and the other players have to keep constant pressure on that one person.
    Quote from cryogen »
    Maybe they aren't playing some Teir 1 deck, but I won't know because I'm sure as **** not going to let them ultimate. And Riku is just sitting quietly waiting for me to run out of gas.
    If all your doing is stopping them from ultimating, why would players feel like they're unfairly being targeted, or that one person is such a massive threat the game is Archenemy before it starts? There's nothing wrong with disrupting your opponents' game plans, whether that means Swordsing their general or attacking their Planeswalker. There is a problem, however, if you don't know when to stop and reevaluate who is the threat. And from the way you describe your outlook on some of these generals, it certainly sounds like you'd rather just run them into the ground.
    Quote from cryogen »
    I also take offense to the idea that I'm biased against a strategy or Walker. I have built stax decks, degenerate combo decks, derpy turn dudes sideways decks, storm decks, etc. I'm not arguing this position or the planeswalkers I listed because I dislike them, I'm doing so because I am thinking about players as a whole.
    Thanks, mom, but we're generally pretty good at figuring out what we like and don't like all on our own. We don't particularly need you to baby us for our own good. We can figure out how to play Elspeth in a fun and responsible manner, just like we did with Animar and Kaalia and Edgar.
    Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
  • posted a message on [POLL] Planeswalkers as playable generals
    Quote from cryogen »
    Yep, we're done here. We can continue this when you dont have to resort to trying to attacking my character.
    You can take it that way if you want, but you did just say you would zero in on someone because their general without waiting to see what kind of deck it was and make sure they die first, even if it is to your own detriment. Maybe before telling me I'm incapable of separating personal desire from the health of the format you should take a look at your own biases. It's not an attack on your character to point out when you're allowing prejudice against certain strategies to influence your decisions.
    Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
  • posted a message on [POLL] Planeswalkers as playable generals
    Quote from cryogen »
    You're missing the point. If we are having an otherwise balanced game where each player gets to demonstrate that they are the threat, then it is more likely that each player will end the game feeling like they contributed. But when a player reveals something like Prossh, or Nekusar, or Krenko, the other players know they are racing a clock and must keep constant pressure on that one player. For me, planeswalkers like the ones I listed occupy that same threat level space. Maybe they aren't playing some Teir 1 deck, but I won't know because I'm sure as **** not going to let them ultimate. And Riku is just sitting quietly waiting for me to run out of gas. The social contract doesn't fix these games, because it's not as easy as saying "hey bruh, that Tazri deck is really good but all I have is my tribal thrull deck maybe you can change it up"
    You're right, I guess I am missing the point because all I'm getting from this is that you have an irrational hatred of certain generals and that you've decided to include 30 or so PWs on that list, and that hatred causes you to ignore proper threat evaluation.
    Quote from cryogen »
    That's fine if it's what you want. I'm not afraid of s stax deck either. But it seems like you're not able to separate your desires from what is good for the overall health of the format.
    Funny, I was thinking the same thing about you. You obviously don't like stax so anything that kind of resembles it is ban worthy for you, or at least on a very short leash.
    Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
  • posted a message on [POLL] Planeswalkers as playable generals
    Quote from cryogen »
    Honestly my biggest issue isn't a power level thing, it's a fun issue. I really dislike Commander games where there is one player who is a giant threat before the game begins and the other players have to keep constant pressure on that one person. Because what usually happens is that Player 2 gets to sit back and watch Players 3 and 4 expend all their resources and then out of nowhere up and win the game. Player 1 is disappointed because they got ganged up on with nothing to show for it, and I feel cheated because I wasn't even able to have the option of making proper threat assessment, and instead had to blindly attack Elzpeth stax which quite possibly was just tribal soldiers but I never let them find out.

    This is the format where we get to build around one card that is the face of our deck, and you guys are fighting for a change where literally the solution is to just not let them play their general. That just doesn't sit right with me.

    Edit: they don't preemptively ban cards which is why Griselbrand was allowed to run free. This is effectively unbending cards, which they do very cautiously. Also, holy ***** dude, you think introducing more stax decks to the format is a good thing?
    To be fair that mostly sounds like a player problem in that ya'll are playing decks of such mismatched power level that you feel the need to make it Archenemy before a single card is played. Social contract that *****, bro.

    Planeswalkers were never banned, they've simply never been legal. It's not like the RC tried them all out and decided they were too problematic. It would be like saying I was banned from the Pro Tour despite never actually being at the Pro Tour. And yes, I think introducing new generals would be swell. I've never seen a mono-white stax deck. I'm not going to hide in a corner and cry just because someone says they're playing stax.
    Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
  • posted a message on [POLL] Planeswalkers as playable generals
    Quote from cryogen »
    Oh I fully admit to being generous and overly cautious. Because what is the alternative? "O ***** u guise we dun goofed because we didn't consider the worst case scenario now we have to undo the rule change." The RC doesn't make rules changes lightly, especially when they would have a large effect on the format. So why should we approach this with a narrow mind as well and just consider how we would be affected by the change or our own opinion.
    The alternative is to allow PW generals and then keep an eye out for any especially problematic ones. Specifically I think Tamiyo, Field Researcher could end up being a bit much. Even Griselbrand was allowed to prove how broken he was before getting banned.
    Quote from Pokken »
    I'm not sure, I think you're [Impossible] falling prey to the same assumption a lot of folks are, which is that PWs in the command zone == a superfriends deck. Could just as easily be a PW in the command zone enabling a stax, combo or even hard control strategy in ways we can't predict.
    I mention it only because people have an unhealthy obsession with judging PWs by their ultimates, and Superfriends is probably where you'll see the most ultimates go off. With Atraxa, we've all been there, done that, got the tee-shirt. As for enabling other strategies... you say that like it's a bad thing? Someone earlier in the thread mentioned Elspeth, Knight-Errant as a stax commander and I thought it was a pretty cool idea. I've never seen mono-white stax before. What exactly is the problem? Isn't enabling new strategies kind of the point of opening up the format to more generals?
    Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
  • posted a message on [POLL] Planeswalkers as playable generals
    Quote from cryogen »
    This is your speculation, just like my stance was mine. Is including a bunch of auras in a Uril deck building a combo deck, or did I just include a bunch of support cards to achieve my overall goal? For that matter, how differently does Uril play in the 99 versus in the Command Zone?
    Voltron is definitely more combo than anything else. Putting a bunch of mediocre cards (auras, in this case) in your deck that only have synergy with your commander is pretty much a combo. If we go back to Teferi, Timebender + Contagion Engine are there any other counter synergies in the deck, or did you put Engine in for the sole purpose of proliferating Teferi?

    If you really want to, you can build a significant number of generals in extremely abusive ways. Just take a look at any top tier generals, in fact. Is that what we think the average player is going to do if they are allowed to use PWs as generals? Yeah, Narset, Enlightened Master can be built with mono-Time Warps. Or you can build a sweet enchantment deck. Since when did we start banning generals because someone might build them as competitively as possible? The banned generals are banned because they can easily and completely remove your ability to play the game, and they can do it very reliably and very quickly. And there's also Rofflecoptor. PWs simply don't meet that criteria when they take multiple turns or a significant amount of extra support cards to maybe sort of win the game when they ultimate?
    Quote from Pokken »
    My Atraxa deck is literal garbage (see the link, it is seriously trash) and it's ultimatted walkers in 2 / 3 of its games and had Gideon Jura at double digit loyalty in one.
    Honestly this feels like evidence for my argument. If Atraxa, Praetors' Voice didn't cause any PWs to get banned, it seems unlikely being able to play them as your general would. She's simply the best option for Superfriends and it's not even particularly close. If someone just wants to abuse PWs, they'll build an Atraxa deck.
    Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
  • posted a message on [POLL] Planeswalkers as playable generals
    Because it's much easier to ultimate a planeswalker that you can cast whenever you want than it is to do it with one you had to draw into within 99 cards.
    You have more opportunity to, it's not actually any easier.
    Quote from cryogen »
    Me personally? A few times. But that's because I don't run a lot of them now, and when I do run them, i don't build an entire deck around a single card in my 99. Now if I WERE to build a deck around a planeswalker, particularly if I wanted to ultimate it, then I would include more ways to achieve that. Let's say Teferi. In mono blue I've got a few proliferate cards to race my counters, as well as artifacts like Contagion Engine and Rings. There are also plenty of Evacuation effects as well. Now, I don't find this very interesting to jump through hoops in order for a Time Warp, but perhaps for some of the other blue options, especially when adding white opens up my options to wraths and creature finishers.

    YMMV, of course.
    That's the point. You've warped your entire deck to achieve a single goal. You've built a combo deck, except the combo is take a single extra turn. And even then, protecting a PW just a single loop around a table is difficult, especially if it looks like your entire deck is geared around said PW. Your opponents aren't going to just sit back and let it happen. Actually getting to a PW ultimate is significantly more difficult than in looks in a multiplayer game.

    You listed JtMS as potentially problematic, but ask anyone that has ever run him in EDH and they'll tell you he is mediocre at best. I think your perception of PWs is significantly different from the reality of them in terms of EDH.
    Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
  • posted a message on [POLL] Planeswalkers as playable generals
    Just out of curiosity, how often have you all actually ultimated a PW in a multiplayer game of EDH? I've been playing EDH for what, almost a decade now I'd guess, and the number of times I can remember ultimating a PW is maybe a couple dozen times. So this idea that PWs with good ultimates (good, mind you, not even game ending ones) would need to be banned is crazy to me. Cryo listed Teferi, Timebender as a problematic card. I literally didn't even know it existed until right now. If you play a 6 mana card, protect it from 3 other players' creatures, and then wait 2 turns, I think you deserve an extra turn. Or you could just play Time Warp. I'm honestly confused how ya'll think so many PWs would suddenly become a problem if they could be generals despite nobody ever complaining about any of these cards in the 99.

    I will acknowledge there are a few that could be problematic. My list would probably be less than 5, however, not the 30+ or however many Cryo listed.
    Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
  • posted a message on [POLL] Planeswalkers as playable generals
    Quote from Pokken »
    I think structural rules changes have a higher bar to surpass than inclusion of cards.
    You say this, but what was the high bar reason that caused the removal of Banned as a Commander? As far as I'm aware, the primary driver behind that was... because it was awkward to maintain a second list of banned cards so it was better to just streamline it. Kind of like having a separate list of PWs that are playable vs. the ones that aren't.
    Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
  • posted a message on [POLL] Planeswalkers as playable generals
    Quote from JWK »
    How is that any more silly than some new player buying some Kaladesh or Amonkhet packs, getting a really cool Masterwork or Invocation card and finding out you can't play that card in Standard?

    Formats have rules. One of the rules of this format is that unless otherwise specified, commanders have to be legendary creatures. There are exceptions, but exceptions need not be generalized. The planeswalkers who can be generals don't negate the basic rules of the format any more than the existence of things like Relentless Rats negates the general singleton nature of the format.
    I mean, sort of, except if some of the Masterpieces had "You can play this card in Standard" written on them somewhere. PW's with the text "can be used as your commander" are a ridiculously inelegant solution to a problem that doesn't really need to exist. Do we honestly think WotC is going to stop printing PWs with the commander rider on them? I certainly don't. So the rule isn't actually stopping people from playing with PWs as their general, just from playing the ones that were printed before WotC decided to start putting the rider on. So what's the purpose? Each time they print a new EDH product with PWs as the face, it's going to get harder and harder to rationalize it away as "the rules are the rules and the rules say commanders are legendary creatures... except for this huge pile of exceptions." How many are we up to right now? 11 I think? And I have no doubt that number will rise over the coming years.
    Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
  • posted a message on [POLL] Planeswalkers as playable generals
    I'm not, those positions appear to be at odds with each other. If the concern is that PWs can act like an Aura Shards from the Command Zone, it stands to reason people would respond by dropping all but the most essential artifacts/enchantments. I see now you're making a distinction specifically for theme decks, but that's kind of just the risk you take when you run an artifact or enchantment based deck. Sometimes your Breya, Etherium Shaper decks runs right into a Vandalblast. It's just something you have to accept when you choose to run a deck like that, and try to build in some ways to recover. I don't see the argument that PWs are going to cause more problems than usual.

    In my opinion, the strongest argument for keeping PWs out of the Command Zone is simply the precedent. The rule is generals are legendary creatures, and there's no reason to change it. And I would have been on board with that a few years ago. But then WotC went and printed PW generals, and changed all PW's to legendary. The precedent line is a lot blurrier than it used to be, and it's increasingly hard to justify allowing some PWs but not others. Just imagine some new player opening a cool new PW like Teferi, Hero of Dominaria and trying to build an EDH deck around him because that player has seen others with PW generals, only to be told they can't. It's kind of silly.
    Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
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