One thing you should consider with these mill decks is that you don't want to be dedicate cards to mill and damage at the same time. Mill is already low impact as it is, but then you're also trying to take down 20 life at the same time which is like giving them another 20 life. It's like playing infect creatures and normal creatures in the same deck. I think if you're going to mill, you should go balls deep. Forget all these cute creatures, let's go for the 60 card win.
I have a couple questions about the deck if you don't mind.
First, can you explain the appeal of Think Twice? You pay 2 to draw a card, then 3 to draw one more. The paying 2 to draw a card seems counterproductive to me, cause if you just ran a different card, you will have drawn that card in Think Twice's place anyway, but without spending mana. Is the flashback for 3 that huge?
Do you run Snapcater's to have a surprise blocker/flash in Azorius Charm to take care of two otherwise unattended creatures? Also, do you have any decklist for your current deck?
Are there any cards in Gatecrash so far that you have thought about subbing in? If so, what would you take out?
1. Think twice is the best draw spell blue has, not even close. Thought Scour you're only milling them for 2 and drawing 1. think twice you get to draw 2 cards with basically no sacrifice. You know what you can play at instant speed for 3 mana? Everything instant this deck. You can Cancel their big dude if they have a good hand, if not, you're digging in your deck for 2 cards, and then another 2 cards next turn. That's 4 cards in 2 turns AND you can still stop what they are doing if you need AND late game if you think twice into an entreat the angels on their turn, you can still cast it on their turn for mircale which is sweet. That's BIG. Every single card in this deck is helpful to you at any given moment. Think Twice is so much better than it seems. Trust me.
2. Snapcaster are completely unecessary. You would have to be taking out a card... thats what removal is for. Want to stop a creature... thats azourious charm... you could flash in for blocks... you have sorin and lingering souls for that. Oh you want to give a card flashback? Think twice and Feeling of dread already have it, and if you want to pay 8 to flashback terminus and not even get your snapcaster on the field so you are overpaying for a removal spell that will in turn hurt you. Your main win con is mill and snapcaster wont help that. Flashback a sphinxs revelation you say? um... have fun discarding 5 cards because when you cast that before for 6 you got a few card draws off think twice already. Plus it would take up a slot that from something important and as you can see... doesn't synergize with the deck very well.
Thanks for your input! I agree with your either going creatures or control, not really both. I am not sure which focus I would want to do since I am not sure which will perform better. I was leaning towards creatures since I like the Consuming Aberration and whatnot, but I can see why control would be really good as well.
For the straight control/mill, do you find yourself able to actually hold them off while you mill them to death? Or do you have alternate wincons? What turn on average do you make it to, whether you win or lose?
Heck yea. You can basically destroy everything except another control deck. Sometimes thundermaws get you, but it's rare.
With 26 lands you basically get a land every single turn. The first few turns i like to think twice at the end of their turn to gain some card advantage. Also Feeling of Dread is basically 2 turns of value in 1 card in early turns and it taps down hellkites and hellrider before they can do a damage giving you a turn to retaliate which is all you really need.Basically if you can stay out of burnspell range you can always make a comeback. if you're at 5+ life on turn 6. You don't even need to worry.
So on turn 4 im usually always supreme verdicting their board or miracling a terminus, leaving them with 3-4 cards in hand, while i have 6 due to the flashing back of think twice getting a lot of card advantage. On the draw i have 7 cards and i usually drop a Sorin to make a lifelink guy or a Tamiyo to tapdown a land (that actually is such a feel-bad for them if they want to play a hellkite or another good 5 drop). Then im usually getting some lingering souls tokens so i have an appropriate amount of blockers in case of random things.
Usually by turn 7 i have get sphinx revelation for 4 basically getting back my whole hand while they are playing off the draw which is basically just giving you extra turns to get your Jace out.
on turn 8+ and you topdeck an Entreat... 4/5 times they scoop upon seeing that insane game winner.
By this time they are down to <50 cards. so all you have to do is keep your jace alive for 4 turns which is cake if you have blockers.. and since you have 4 jace's if they kill one on your main phase or something wierd you can just wipe the board and play another making for a lot of facepalms on the other side of the board.
Basically against people who like 1 toughtness creatures you play curse and they just scoop. its a big help agaisnt invisible stalkers.
The only real problem is thragtusk tokens... but even then... wipe the board, and azourious charm the token. and since your planeswalkers basically have over 3 loyalty they can survive them a turn in which case. tamiyo can tap it down, sorin can give you a blocker and jace just keeps winning.
It seems inconsistent with only 1 win con being jace and entreat but its actually very good.
Quick tips:
1.At the end of their turn before you do anything always check graveyards for think twice flashbacks (i miss them all the time)
2. Always make sure you do all your planeswalker stuff every turn so you dont get cheated.
3a. Board wipe THEN make tokens
3b. Attack with lifelinkers and such, THEN board wipe.
4. Get ALL the value out of every card you have.
5. Tamiyo emblem is one of your best friends.
6. Dont be afraid to draw with azourious charm if you really need to.
I dont know too much about gatecrash but here's what i know for running esper mill lately.
You either go control, or creatures.
Terminus and Supreme Verdict does not go well with your phantasms snapcasters fogbanks, ETC.
if you have both then you dont have room for your wincons.
My personal favourite mill deck is a basically creatureless Esper Friends Control Mill Deck (Sounds complicated, but it's really not). "Basically Creatureless"= No creatures, but i run Sorin (For blocks and the lifelink is kinda nice) 3 lingering souls (For blockers until i get my board wipes out) and 1 Entreat the angels (For the always nice, late game, have 10 mana free, "oops i win!", feel like a BAMF, moments)
What works in basically any u/w/x build no matter what you decide to play
Detention sphere/Oblivion ring - Nice Planeswalker, NOT
Tamiyo- Nice Swagtusk you can't use
Think twice, Azourious Charm, Dissipate- Gives you tempo and card advantage at instant speed. They dont do anything amazing this turn, may as well draw a card with think twice, you plan of countering a spell but they doing do anything well just flash think twice back, they play stuff on their dudes like enchantments (rancor isnt a good example but it's really the only good enchantment in standard) GET it back in your hand and put your dude on top of your library making you lose tempo. Oh, you like your angel of serenity... Exiled! No cylcing cards from your graveyard for you.
Sphinx's revalation- Probably the best card you can have in a build but i would go MAXIMUM of 3. Because you don't want more than one of these early on.
If you go control, then you want a split 3-3 for Verdict and Terminus.
The thought scour + Charm combo is cool.... but that's what removal is for and you are getting 2 for 1'd if you do that and that is a huge no-no.
So Tell me which way you want to go, and i will try to assist accordingly.
(I can help more with Control creature-less mill...+ i think its more fun :D)
wow i didnt think my thread would get this popular.
There is also now an infinite mill combo to add to this, i saw this in another post a minute ago, here's the link. http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=481853
If without splash, the only thing i see worth running is skull-crack in the sideboard. No ground breaking cards for RDW in the mono red card category. If your seeking to splash for Burning Tree Emissary you might as well throw in cards like rancor and flint boar-hoof.
I'm not really looking to splash since it is hybrid mana. i can work with RG mana and use G for the generic in most cards like gorehouse.
I'm looking mainly at Burning tree emissary because he can either cast another guy, or play a nice searing spear or a mortars off of him, or pair with a lightning mauler. But im not sure what i could take out?
Help.
This started with the idea of making an Extort exploiting deck. But after some minor thought i figured it was a good deck in the slightest because 1 life for 1 mana isn't that big of a deal. I was contemplating naming this deck "Blink my Junk" but experience have shown me naming decks bad puns never ends well. It usually only works if you use a breakfast cereal. Anyway here it is!
I recommend removing Faithless looting and adding 4 Stromkirk noble and going down to 22 lands to add Burn at the steak. This deck fizzles quickly because on t3 you have no hand basically. and 1 board wipe basically screws you.
i'd love to use this, i think it will be hilarious to use, but then there is going to be 1 time where i have all 4 and then they get detention sphered and i will be like *FACEPALM*
This guy, he knows.
1. Think twice is the best draw spell blue has, not even close. Thought Scour you're only milling them for 2 and drawing 1. think twice you get to draw 2 cards with basically no sacrifice. You know what you can play at instant speed for 3 mana? Everything instant this deck. You can Cancel their big dude if they have a good hand, if not, you're digging in your deck for 2 cards, and then another 2 cards next turn. That's 4 cards in 2 turns AND you can still stop what they are doing if you need AND late game if you think twice into an entreat the angels on their turn, you can still cast it on their turn for mircale which is sweet. That's BIG. Every single card in this deck is helpful to you at any given moment. Think Twice is so much better than it seems. Trust me.
2. Snapcaster are completely unecessary. You would have to be taking out a card... thats what removal is for. Want to stop a creature... thats azourious charm... you could flash in for blocks... you have sorin and lingering souls for that. Oh you want to give a card flashback? Think twice and Feeling of dread already have it, and if you want to pay 8 to flashback terminus and not even get your snapcaster on the field so you are overpaying for a removal spell that will in turn hurt you. Your main win con is mill and snapcaster wont help that. Flashback a sphinxs revelation you say? um... have fun discarding 5 cards because when you cast that before for 6 you got a few card draws off think twice already. Plus it would take up a slot that from something important and as you can see... doesn't synergize with the deck very well.
3. Currently looking into it.
Heck yea. You can basically destroy everything except another control deck. Sometimes thundermaws get you, but it's rare.
With 26 lands you basically get a land every single turn. The first few turns i like to think twice at the end of their turn to gain some card advantage. Also Feeling of Dread is basically 2 turns of value in 1 card in early turns and it taps down hellkites and hellrider before they can do a damage giving you a turn to retaliate which is all you really need.Basically if you can stay out of burnspell range you can always make a comeback. if you're at 5+ life on turn 6. You don't even need to worry.
So on turn 4 im usually always supreme verdicting their board or miracling a terminus, leaving them with 3-4 cards in hand, while i have 6 due to the flashing back of think twice getting a lot of card advantage. On the draw i have 7 cards and i usually drop a Sorin to make a lifelink guy or a Tamiyo to tapdown a land (that actually is such a feel-bad for them if they want to play a hellkite or another good 5 drop). Then im usually getting some lingering souls tokens so i have an appropriate amount of blockers in case of random things.
Usually by turn 7 i have get sphinx revelation for 4 basically getting back my whole hand while they are playing off the draw which is basically just giving you extra turns to get your Jace out.
on turn 8+ and you topdeck an Entreat... 4/5 times they scoop upon seeing that insane game winner.
By this time they are down to <50 cards. so all you have to do is keep your jace alive for 4 turns which is cake if you have blockers.. and since you have 4 jace's if they kill one on your main phase or something wierd you can just wipe the board and play another making for a lot of facepalms on the other side of the board.
Basically against people who like 1 toughtness creatures you play curse and they just scoop. its a big help agaisnt invisible stalkers.
The only real problem is thragtusk tokens... but even then... wipe the board, and azourious charm the token. and since your planeswalkers basically have over 3 loyalty they can survive them a turn in which case. tamiyo can tap it down, sorin can give you a blocker and jace just keeps winning.
It seems inconsistent with only 1 win con being jace and entreat but its actually very good.
Quick tips:
1.At the end of their turn before you do anything always check graveyards for think twice flashbacks (i miss them all the time)
2. Always make sure you do all your planeswalker stuff every turn so you dont get cheated.
3a. Board wipe THEN make tokens
3b. Attack with lifelinkers and such, THEN board wipe.
4. Get ALL the value out of every card you have.
5. Tamiyo emblem is one of your best friends.
6. Dont be afraid to draw with azourious charm if you really need to.
4 Jace, Memory Adept
Oops I win-con:
1 Entreat the Angels
2 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
3 Lingering Souls
2 Feeling of Dread
3 Azorius Charm
Removal:
2 Detention Sphere
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Supreme Verdict
3 Terminus
4 Think Twice
Land:
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Isolated Chapel
2 Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Evolving Wilds
2 Nephalia Drownyard
1 Vault of the Archangel
2 Negate
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Jace, Architect of Thought
4 Fog Bank
3 Dissipate
2 Curse of Death's Hold
i knew i was forgetting a mana dork. thanks.
And Frontline medic protects all your dudes... maybe cut it down to 2?
You either go control, or creatures.
Terminus and Supreme Verdict does not go well with your phantasms snapcasters fogbanks, ETC.
if you have both then you dont have room for your wincons.
My personal favourite mill deck is a basically creatureless Esper Friends Control Mill Deck (Sounds complicated, but it's really not). "Basically Creatureless"= No creatures, but i run Sorin (For blocks and the lifelink is kinda nice) 3 lingering souls (For blockers until i get my board wipes out) and 1 Entreat the angels (For the always nice, late game, have 10 mana free, "oops i win!", feel like a BAMF, moments)
What works in basically any u/w/x build no matter what you decide to play
Detention sphere/Oblivion ring - Nice Planeswalker, NOT
Tamiyo- Nice Swagtusk you can't use
Think twice, Azourious Charm, Dissipate- Gives you tempo and card advantage at instant speed. They dont do anything amazing this turn, may as well draw a card with think twice, you plan of countering a spell but they doing do anything well just flash think twice back, they play stuff on their dudes like enchantments (rancor isnt a good example but it's really the only good enchantment in standard) GET it back in your hand and put your dude on top of your library making you lose tempo. Oh, you like your angel of serenity... Exiled! No cylcing cards from your graveyard for you.
Sphinx's revalation- Probably the best card you can have in a build but i would go MAXIMUM of 3. Because you don't want more than one of these early on.
If you go control, then you want a split 3-3 for Verdict and Terminus.
The thought scour + Charm combo is cool.... but that's what removal is for and you are getting 2 for 1'd if you do that and that is a huge no-no.
So Tell me which way you want to go, and i will try to assist accordingly.
(I can help more with Control creature-less mill...+ i think its more fun :D)
There is also now an infinite mill combo to add to this, i saw this in another post a minute ago, here's the link.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=481853
I'm not really looking to splash since it is hybrid mana. i can work with RG mana and use G for the generic in most cards like gorehouse.
4 Stromkirk Noble
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Stonewright
4 Ash Zealot
4 Gore-House Chainwalker
4 Hellrider
3 Lightning Mauler
2 Thundermaw Hellkite
2 Pillar of Flame
2 Flames of the Firebrand
22 Mountain
1 Hellion Crucible
3 Mizzium Mortars
2 Traitorous Blood
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Zealous Conscripts
1 Flames of the Firebrand
2 Brimstone Volley
3 Pyreheart Wolf
I'm looking mainly at Burning tree emissary because he can either cast another guy, or play a nice searing spear or a mortars off of him, or pair with a lightning mauler. But im not sure what i could take out?
Help.
2 Arbor elf
4 Avacyns Pilgrim
4 Lotleth Troll
4 Centaur Healer
2 Frontline Medic
4 Thragtusk
4 Restoration angel
2 Obzedot, Ghost Council
Instant/Sorcery (10):
4 Farseek
4 Lingering Souls
2 Cloudshift
4 Temple Garden
4 Isolated Chapel
4 Sunpetal Grove
4 Godless Shrine
4 Forest
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Vault of the Archangel
4 Absolutely
4 No
4 idea
2 Need
1 help
Out of curiosity, who would've gotten a chuckle from my bad pun?
EDIT: Cut 2 arbor elf and frontline medic and added 4 Avacyns Pilgrim
+2 Deathrite Shamen