Patron of the Orochi then decided to swing all those token/land creatures only at me even though he could have taken everyone out since no one player had enough blockers and all tapped out (but me). His creatures all ran right into an awaiting Ætherize! All the lands back to hand, all the tokens gone. He scooped since he was put so far back in mana/tempo.
The other moment was later on when Brion Stoutarm cast Insurrection to get a lot of creatures to again potentially swing for lethal on everyone else. Up til then, nothing significant happens from the Niv Mizzet player. At the beginning of combat of Brion Stoutarm, Niv Mizzet cast Blustersquall overloaded.
Brion was then killed before his next turn due to the failed/stopped Insurrection.
I have Conspiracy naming Dragon on the field along with Lazav, Dimir Mastermind as any creature (doubt the fact that he is cloning something or not matters here). If I use Lazav's ability to change him after Conspiracy came out, would he still be a Dragon?
In others words, which effect take precedence: Lazav, Dimir Mastermind's cloning ability changing his creature type(s) accordingly or Conspiracy forcing it to be/stay as the named creature type?
I ask since I'm putting Silumgar, the Drifting Death and Crux of Fate into the deck and trying to exploit the dragon matters aspect. I especially like the option of making all my guys Dragons, then destroying the other creatures for more Lazav triggers.
Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Planeswalker - Ugin
+3: Ugin, the Spirit Dragon deals 3 damage to target creature or player. If a creature dealt damage this way would die this turn, exile it instead.
-2: Turn target face-up permanent face-down or turn target face-down permanent face-up. (Face down permanents are 2/2 colorless creatures with no text, no name, no subtypes, no expansion symbol, and no mana cost)
-9: You get an emblem with "If an opponent would begin an extra turn, that player skips that turn instead." and "At the beginning of each end step, if it's not your turn, take an extra turn after this one."
5
I used the same CMC and loyalty activation numbers as Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker since Ugin is supposedly his equal or rival. I put Ghostfire with the Pillar of Flame creature-exile clause since this is Ugin himself doing the damage and not some random Jeskai mage trained in the sixth elemental force/fire as referenced in the Khans of Tarkir Planeswalker's Guide.
I figured with his connection to morph, why not let him directly morph/unmorph a permanent for "free" therefor allowing him to exile any permanent over 2 turns using the middle then top abilities or the same turn via The Chain Veil.
Lastly, since he is connected to time travel/manipulation due to Ugin's Nexus, I meshed together the extra turn hate ability from Stranglehold since he is helping you in the game and the extra turn granting ability from Lighthouse Chronologist.
I managed to kill each opponent in a 4 player pod with Jace Beleren one time. Admittedly, there were other cards that did the majority of the work, but Beleren was the one that officially caused the game loss event.
I shortcut it by just exiling the top card of opponents' libraries since I didn't need anything specific from their decks. I get Jace back to hand from Tamiyo emblem. I tutor Copy Enchantment from my library, have it enter as another Doubling Season.
I recast Architect of Thought, ultimate him for to exile top card of each opponents' libraries, get Jace, the Mind Sculptor from mine, PW rule getting Architect back to my hand via emblem, then ultimate JtMS, exiling opponent A's library and putting hand into library. I get JtMS back via emblem, cast him and ultimate him again to exile opponent A's "new" library. I cycle JtMS this way to exile all cards from each other opponents' library and hands.
Then, finally I cast Beleren, then plus him to make everyone draw a card from empty library and win from opponents drawing from empty library.
It was the most convoluted combo I accomplished from any of my 4 EDH decks, but what else would you expect from a 5-color Superfriends deck right. HAHAHA
thanks atlas_hugged for the rules reference. sorry for the rant, guess I was used to playing with such interactions in a certain way (as i alluded to in my prior posts) that I thought I had it down pat. I now understand I was wrong and moved on.
I'll just let it go and not think about it. I don't even play with the vivid lands and doubling season in the same EDH deck anyway, just the weirdness of it just got to me more then i thought it would.
this is what I'm frustrated with: Triskelion and the lands that enter with counters essentially have the same sentence "this enters the battlefield with x counters" which the ruling on Doubling Season explicitly covers as being able to interact with. So, if in some hypothetical way, I can put a Triskelion into play via a special action (if one exists, i don't know it), then it too would then be ignored or not seen by Doubling Season? This sounds more then unintuitive. They use the same template of enter the battlefield replacement effects, but say one is not an effect even though we used the same template/wording! WTH
well then if the vivid lands are an exception then so would all other cards with that wording imo like Triskelion in the rulings i quoted. I say this because Triskelion has a similar enter the battlefield replacement effect like the lands and is explicitly said to be affected by doubling season in that ruling.
so to me, there is still a difference with the special action/EtB replacement effect of the vivid lands. Special action to me is just to refer to something happening that doesn't use the stack like land drop for turn, morph, mana abilities, the act of declaring attacks/blockers, and act of assigning/dealing combat damage, etc.
enter the battlefield replacement effects just edits how a permanent enters the battlefield and is still an effect. I.E. lands entering tapped, clone effects, Iona's color naming effect, etc.
side note: so am I to understand that since it is a special action entirely to have a land enter tapped with counters on it like these lands and not an effect, then playing one for turn won't trigger Amulet of Vigor?
In my mind, if a card said "if an effect would have you name a color, then you name two colors instead" then I would play Iona with 2 colors being restricted. same with lands in my mind. Perfect example is Vesuva. Special action to play it for turn, etb replacement effect to clone a land, chose vivid land, then etb replacement effect putting counters on permanent, thus doubled by doubling season.
This feels to me like the question i hear at LGS from new players about the + loyalty costs of PW not being doubled when doubling season it out. I tell them that those are cost and not effects, since MTG is very specific on the wordings of things. Like how the controller of Consecrated Sphinx won't draw 2 cards off of an opponent's Dark Confidant's effect since it isn't a draw effect due to it not using the word "draw;" proliferate, clone effects, Council's Judgment, Deflecting Palm don't target since it uses "choose"/"vote" instead of "target" etc. Then why would a special action inherently include etb replacement effects and not be separate entities when it comes to these lands/doubling season when they use different wordings?
Especially when there is an actual Gatherer ruling explicitly saying it affects cards (notice it does not say "nonland cards") worded like those lands as if that would be regardless of any special action.
the direct quote below is in the rulings for Doubling Season found in Gatherer/Oracle and MTGSalvation card rulings page that actually proves it DOES indeed work with the Vivid Lands' counters. Also, while it is considered a special action to play a land, that is not was puts the counters on the land. The process that gives these lands their counters is considered an enter the battlefield replacement EFFECT, thus is affected by Doubling Season.
"10/1/2005 Doubling Season affects cards that "enter the battlefield with" a certain number of counters. Triskelion, for example, would enter the battlefield with six +1/+1 counters on it rather than three."
If no one has any cards in hand and graveyard at the time I resolve Jace, the Living Guildpact's ultimate, does everyone still shuffle their library before I draw my seven cards?
I'm considering putting in Dack Fayden, but the only thing I have that can use the ultimate is Gridlock, so would it still be worth it to include?
Dack's Duplicate is also another one I'm considering, clone biggest threat with haste is great. Also, clone my Academy Rector to get another enchantment tutor effect when killed.
Patron of the Orochi then decided to swing all those token/land creatures only at me even though he could have taken everyone out since no one player had enough blockers and all tapped out (but me). His creatures all ran right into an awaiting Ætherize! All the lands back to hand, all the tokens gone. He scooped since he was put so far back in mana/tempo.
The other moment was later on when Brion Stoutarm cast Insurrection to get a lot of creatures to again potentially swing for lethal on everyone else. Up til then, nothing significant happens from the Niv Mizzet player. At the beginning of combat of Brion Stoutarm, Niv Mizzet cast Blustersquall overloaded.
Brion was then killed before his next turn due to the failed/stopped Insurrection.
An well-timed Orbs of Warding Niv Mizzet couldn't answer for a long time followed by 3 Sphinx's Tutelages (Copy Enchantment + Clever Impersonator) and various draw enablers (Rhystic Study, couple large Blue Sun's Zeniths, etc) quickly milled the rest of Niv Mizeet's deck for the win.
In others words, which effect take precedence: Lazav, Dimir Mastermind's cloning ability changing his creature type(s) accordingly or Conspiracy forcing it to be/stay as the named creature type?
I ask since I'm putting Silumgar, the Drifting Death and Crux of Fate into the deck and trying to exploit the dragon matters aspect. I especially like the option of making all my guys Dragons, then destroying the other creatures for more Lazav triggers.
Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Planeswalker - Ugin
+3: Ugin, the Spirit Dragon deals 3 damage to target creature or player. If a creature dealt damage this way would die this turn, exile it instead.
-2: Turn target face-up permanent face-down or turn target face-down permanent face-up. (Face down permanents are 2/2 colorless creatures with no text, no name, no subtypes, no expansion symbol, and no mana cost)
-9: You get an emblem with "If an opponent would begin an extra turn, that player skips that turn instead." and "At the beginning of each end step, if it's not your turn, take an extra turn after this one."
5
I used the same CMC and loyalty activation numbers as Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker since Ugin is supposedly his equal or rival. I put Ghostfire with the Pillar of Flame creature-exile clause since this is Ugin himself doing the damage and not some random Jeskai mage trained in the sixth elemental force/fire as referenced in the Khans of Tarkir Planeswalker's Guide.
I figured with his connection to morph, why not let him directly morph/unmorph a permanent for "free" therefor allowing him to exile any permanent over 2 turns using the middle then top abilities or the same turn via The Chain Veil.
Lastly, since he is connected to time travel/manipulation due to Ugin's Nexus, I meshed together the extra turn hate ability from Stranglehold since he is helping you in the game and the extra turn granting ability from Lighthouse Chronologist.
These other cards just happen to be: (in order of how they were played) Academy Rector, sacrificed Rector to High Market to get Omniscience; cast Doubling Season, cast Tamiyo, the Moon Sage and use her ultimate to get emblem, cast Jace, Architect of Thought and ultimate.
I shortcut it by just exiling the top card of opponents' libraries since I didn't need anything specific from their decks. I get Jace back to hand from Tamiyo emblem. I tutor Copy Enchantment from my library, have it enter as another Doubling Season.
I recast Architect of Thought, ultimate him for to exile top card of each opponents' libraries, get Jace, the Mind Sculptor from mine, PW rule getting Architect back to my hand via emblem, then ultimate JtMS, exiling opponent A's library and putting hand into library. I get JtMS back via emblem, cast him and ultimate him again to exile opponent A's "new" library. I cycle JtMS this way to exile all cards from each other opponents' library and hands.
Then, finally I cast Beleren, then plus him to make everyone draw a card from empty library and win from opponents drawing from empty library.
It was the most convoluted combo I accomplished from any of my 4 EDH decks, but what else would you expect from a 5-color Superfriends deck right. HAHAHA
so to me, there is still a difference with the special action/EtB replacement effect of the vivid lands. Special action to me is just to refer to something happening that doesn't use the stack like land drop for turn, morph, mana abilities, the act of declaring attacks/blockers, and act of assigning/dealing combat damage, etc.
enter the battlefield replacement effects just edits how a permanent enters the battlefield and is still an effect. I.E. lands entering tapped, clone effects, Iona's color naming effect, etc.
side note: so am I to understand that since it is a special action entirely to have a land enter tapped with counters on it like these lands and not an effect, then playing one for turn won't trigger Amulet of Vigor?
In my mind, if a card said "if an effect would have you name a color, then you name two colors instead" then I would play Iona with 2 colors being restricted. same with lands in my mind. Perfect example is Vesuva. Special action to play it for turn, etb replacement effect to clone a land, chose vivid land, then etb replacement effect putting counters on permanent, thus doubled by doubling season.
This feels to me like the question i hear at LGS from new players about the + loyalty costs of PW not being doubled when doubling season it out. I tell them that those are cost and not effects, since MTG is very specific on the wordings of things. Like how the controller of Consecrated Sphinx won't draw 2 cards off of an opponent's Dark Confidant's effect since it isn't a draw effect due to it not using the word "draw;" proliferate, clone effects, Council's Judgment, Deflecting Palm don't target since it uses "choose"/"vote" instead of "target" etc. Then why would a special action inherently include etb replacement effects and not be separate entities when it comes to these lands/doubling season when they use different wordings?
Especially when there is an actual Gatherer ruling explicitly saying it affects cards (notice it does not say "nonland cards") worded like those lands as if that would be regardless of any special action.
/rant
"10/1/2005 Doubling Season affects cards that "enter the battlefield with" a certain number of counters. Triskelion, for example, would enter the battlefield with six +1/+1 counters on it rather than three."
Dack's Duplicate is also another one I'm considering, clone biggest threat with haste is great. Also, clone my Academy Rector to get another enchantment tutor effect when killed.
Finally, I plan on getting that new Teferi, Temporal Archmage in Commander 2014
1x Progenitus
Land (36)
1x Bad River
1x Blood Crypt
1x Breeding Pool
1x Command Tower
1x Crystal Quarry
1x Flood Plain
2x Forest
1x Godless Shrine
1x Grasslands
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x High Market
2x Island
1x Krosan Verge
1x Mana Confluence
1x Maze of Ith
2x Mountain
1x Mountain Valley
1x Overgrown Tomb
2x Plains
1x Reflecting Pool
1x Reliquary Tower
1x Rocky Tar Pit
1x Sacred Foundry
1x Steam Vents
1x Stomping Ground
2x Swamp
1x Temple Garden
1x Vivid Creek
1x Vivid Grove
1x Vivid Marsh
1x Watery Grave
1x Cyclonic Rift
Planeswalker (29)
1x Ajani, Caller of the Pride
1x Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
1x Ajani Steadfast
1x Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1x Elspeth Tirel
1x Garruk, Apex Predator
1x Garruk, Primal Hunter
1x Garruk Wildspeaker
1x Gideon, Champion of Justice
1x Gideon Jura
1x Jace, Architect of Thought
1x Jace Beleren
1x Jace, the Living Guildpact
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Karn Liberated
1x Kiora, the Crashing Wave
1x Liliana of the Veil
1x Liliana Vess
1x Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
1x Ral Zarek
1x Sarkhan Vol
1x Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1x Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
1x Tezzeret the Seeker
1x Venser, the Sojourner
1x Vraska the Unseen
Creature (6)
1x Academy Rector
1x Heliod, God of the Sun
1x Keranos, God of Storms
1x Kruphix, God of Horizons
1x Thassa, God of the Sea
1x Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1x Amulet of Vigor
1x Astral Cornucopia
1x Chromatic Lantern
1x Contagion Engine
1x Rings of Brighthearth
1x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Sol Ring
1x Temple Bell
1x The Chain Veil
1x Torpor Orb
1x Witchbane Orb
Enchantment (9)
1x Copy Enchantment
1x Doubling Season
1x Inexorable Tide
1x Maelstrom Nexus
1x Mind Over Matter
1x Omniscience
1x Pernicious Deed
1x Prismatic Omen
1x Sphere of Safety
Sorcery (7)
1x Council's Judgment
1x Damnation
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Genesis Wave
1x Merciless Eviction
1x Tempt with Discovery
1x Terminus
1x Wrath of God