In deckbuilding, yes - I choose to pursue "fair" strategies and don't include any infinite combos, generally speaking. But I try to make those decks as optimal as possible, granted that their ceiling is going to be below that of a tuned combo deck.
In gameplay, no - I feel like showing someone pity because you have the power to is almost worse than just caving their face in (in game, of course), and it kind of invalidates the result of the game.
I like this idea. I've been coming back to the idea of building deck with Elecutors in it for a while now. I like win conditions that you have to protect for (quite) a while and if you can you win and if you don't you... don't.
I'm surprised at the names that you don't see being mentioned this time around, at least yet: Damia and Oloro in control; Kaalia in aggro; Mimeoplasm in combo. I suppose that a lot of those initial commander product legends might've been flavor of the month, at least to a degree... or perhaps they've just been outclassed by newer releases.
So, this is another of my attempts at making a draw-go deck that works. At present, I'm trying to do two things: (1) find the right balance of card draw, removal, and counterspells; and (2) select the best card draw, removal, and counterspell effects. There's really a lot of options in Esper colors.
So, I'm trying to weigh pros and cons of individual cards and arrive at a good balance of effects overall. It's a fun process, and any thoughts or suggestions are appreciated.
This is a statement I've seen bandied about here and there over the years - that the draw-go archetype just doesn't work in multiplayer EDH. I would say that, as a whole, draw-go is my favorite style of play (think old-school RWU control in Modern that would just counter everything and then start Snapcaster Mage + Lightning Helixing your face and smashing you with Celestial Colonnades), so I've generally tried to buck this conception.
So, from those who say it doesn't work, why doesn't it? From those who say it does, why does it? Can it be extrapolated to a discussion of whether proactive strategies are just better in multiplayer EDH than reactive strategies?
I vote Leovold, Emissary of Trest. He's in all the goodstuff colors. He makes all your opponents glad that everyone else can't gain more card advantage then them. You can even through some wheel effects in there because nothing says I'm Cool With You like allowing your opponents to refill their hands if they are terrible. You'll be like their new best friend with a fair commander as Leovold.
Like the title says. Need a new deck, I want it to be fair, no crazy infinite combos and probably something creature based. Probably goodstuff, maybe themed, can't pick one. Any suggestions?
If they dont scoop from Leovold + Puzzlebox. Remember puzzlebox lets you dig deep into the deck for kill cards, so any rack/(you)draw pain will finish them. Nekusar isnt going to help, or any red cards mentioned but Psychosis Crawler will finish them.
Crawler is definitely a nice, grindy solution. Always forget about it outside of infinite use in Azami or whatever other blue infinite mana deck...
But, are there some combos that even at casual tables are so mana-intensive or otherwise "janky" as to be deemed acceptable? Something like Vela the Night-Clad + kicked Rite of Replication. RoR on Reaper King also works.
What are some other "janky" combos that come to mind that the majority of EDH players might not be super mad to lose to?
1) Best multiplayer COMBO commander: Sidisi, Undead Vizier
2) Best multiplayer CONTROL commander: Grand Arbiter Augustin IV
3) Best multiplayer AGGRO commander: Prossh, Skyraider of Kher
4) MOST FUN commander to play in multiplayer: Phelddagrif
5) MOST FUN commander to play AGAINST in multiplayer: vial smasher the fierce
6) Best 1v1 commander (Traditional)idk
7) Best 1v1 commander (Duel / French)idk
8) Best Pauper commander idk
9) Best Tiny Leaders commander: idk
10) Best 2HG Commander: Purphoros
What's Sidisi usually tutoring for? Basalt Monolith + Rings of Brighthearth + Exsanguinate? I must be missing something really key, or I just overestimate U - I just have a hard time imagining a deck without counterspell backup powering it's combo through a table full of counterspells waiting for it.
That's not false. I was hoping for little more... elegant solution Other than the painful slowness of beating people to death with utility critters, it also technically gives them more time/turns to come up with some way to break out of a lock.
Thanks for all the replies thus far. I'll try to respond to each individually as I'm able. Just to help the discussion, though, the deck I had in mind when pondering this question was Leovold, Emissary of Trest, where it's relatively easy to lock people pretty hard with Leovold + a wheel, and then a Teferi's Puzzle Box or Anvil of Bogardan or the like. I guess the question is how you win other than scoops. And I think the question does apply to discard commanders in general, although some like Nath or Nekusar serve as the deck's win con as well.
I would personally cut the Spirit and add a Filth in there. The evasion is often sorely needed in my experience and the Spirit is often largely irrelevant. Looks pretty stock though.
I'll keep that in mind.
Regarding "stock"-ness... yeah. It's pretty close to Reid Duke's list, with splashes of Shawn Riggins' and Relico Fererro's ideas thrown in. I pretty much just got my guidance from the new primer in the Legacy forum and went from there. Hopefully playtesting will help me figure out how to personalize it for myself.
In gameplay, no - I feel like showing someone pity because you have the power to is almost worse than just caving their face in (in game, of course), and it kind of invalidates the result of the game.
I like this idea. I've been coming back to the idea of building deck with Elecutors in it for a while now. I like win conditions that you have to protect for (quite) a while and if you can you win and if you don't you... don't.
At present, I have 5 cards that do nothing but draw cards - Skeletal Scrying, Sphinx's Revelation, Succumb to Temptation, Jace's Ingenuity, and Moonlight Bargain - and a few others that cantrip or situationally draw - Cryptic Command, Dismiss, and Mystic Confluence). Several of those are really powerful and draw a lot of cards, and 2 of them are flexible and can either be a little bump or a huge refill. Still, I'm not sure if this is enough.
I have 9 pieces of targeted removal - Path to Exile, Swords to Plowshares, Anguished Unmaking, Fate Forgotten (probably one of the weakest and potentially on the chopping block), Hero's Downfall, Mortify, Return to Dust, Utter End, and Grip of Desolation (also in question). I Silumgar's Command will probably also usually be used to hit a planeswalker. And I have 4 board wipes - Cyclonic Rift, Toxic Deluge, Consume the Meek, and Fated Retribution. Instant-speed board wipes aren't as rawly powerful as their sorcery-speed counterparts, but their flexibility might make up for that, and each one has a unique use.
And I have 14 counterspells - Swan Song, Disallow, Void Shatter, Cryptic Command, Dismiss, Insidious Will, Mindbreak Trap, Rewind, Summary Dismissal, Desertion, Mystic Confluence, Silumgar's Command, Spelljack, and Time Stop. I guess Commandeer probably counts as another. One problem here is choosing the highest-quality cards. I tried to go with cards that can be used in different modes depending on the game's demands, and spells that do something besides just counter - cantrip, untap, exile, steal, etc. Still, Mana Drain probably deserves a place (is that the most ridiculous thing to say - "probably"?), and maybe Force of Will and Pact of Negation, as well. There's a lot of other good counterspells to consider, too.
So, I'm trying to weigh pros and cons of individual cards and arrive at a good balance of effects overall. It's a fun process, and any thoughts or suggestions are appreciated.
Deck stats. Avg. CMC = 3.19. 49% blue, 27% black, 23% white.
1 Oloro, Ageless Ascetic
//Creature (2)
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
//Instant (42)
1 Darkness
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Path to Exile
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Suffer the Past
1 Swan Song
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Anguished Unmaking
1 Disallow
1 Fate Forgotten
1 Hero's Downfall
1 Mortify
1 Sphinx's Revelation
1 Succumb to Temptation
1 Sudden Spoiling
1 Void Shatter
1 Comeuppance
1 Cryptic Command
1 Dismiss
1 Insidious Will
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Reins of Power
1 Return to Dust
1 Rewind
1 Summary Dismissal
1 Utter End
1 Consume the Meek
1 Desertion
1 Jace's Ingenuity
1 Moonlight Bargain
1 Mystic Confluence
1 Silumgar's Command
1 Gather Specimens
1 Grip of Desolation
1 Spelljack
1 Time Stop
1 Commandeer
1 Fated Retribution
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Toxic Deluge
//Artifact (13)
1 Mana Crypt
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol Ring
1 Azorius Signet
1 Dimir Signet
1 Orzhov Signet
1 Talisman of Dominance
1 Talisman of Progress
1 Torpor Orb
1 Coalition Relic
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Paradox Engine
//Enchantment (4)
1 Suppression Field
1 Rest in Peace
1 Aura of Silence
1 Humility
//Land (36)
1 Academy Ruins
1 Arid Mesa
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Command Tower
1 Drowned Catacomb
1 Fetid Heath
1 Flooded Strand
1 Glacial Fortress
1 Godless Shrine
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Island
1 Isolated Chapel
1 Kor Haven
1 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Mystic Gate
3 Plains
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Scrubland
1 Strip Mine
1 Sunken Ruins
3 Swamp
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wasteland
1 Watery Grave
1 Windswept Heath
1 Pact of Negation
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Brainstorm
1 Epiphany at the Drownyard
1 Flusterstorm
1 Orim's Chant
1 Silence
1 Spell Pierce
1 Spoils of Blood
1 Tainted Strike
1 Tithe
1 Counterspell
1 Disdainful Stroke
1 Disenchant
1 Go for the Throat
1 Hallowed Moonlight
1 Imp's Mischief
1 Malicious Affliction
1 Mana Drain
1 Mana Leak
1 Negate
1 Radiant Purge
1 Shadow of Doubt
1 Trickbind
1 Unexpectedly Absent
1 Victim of Night
1 Dismember
1 Dissipate
1 Dissolve
1 Faerie Trickery
1 Render Silent
1 Stroke of Genius
1 To the Slaughter
1 Unmake
1 Face or Fiction
1 Last Word
1 Mystical Teaching
1 Plagiarize
1 Evacuation
1 Force of Will
1 Hatred
1 Swift Silence
1 Misdirection
1 Murderous Cut
1 Perilous Predicament
1 Dragonlord's Prerogative
1 Opportunity
1 Overwhelming Intellect
1 Æthersnatch
1 Dig Through Time
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Propaganda
1 Rhystic Study
So, from those who say it doesn't work, why doesn't it? From those who say it does, why does it? Can it be extrapolated to a discussion of whether proactive strategies are just better in multiplayer EDH than reactive strategies?
The sarcasm is strong with this one
When I think of going creature goodstuff, I think of going Doran, the Siege Tower with Stoneforge Mystic, SoFaF and SoFaI, Eternal Witness, Solemn Simulacrum, Grave Titan, Sun Titan etc. ~25-30 creatures. Maybe Birthing Pod for value. All the good Abzan disruption (Nature's Claim, Swords to Plowshares, Anguished Unmaking, Mortify, Utter EndPutrefy, Maelstrom Pulse, Vindicate, etc.). Pretty solid for a fair deck.
Ermahgerd... I need to do this...
Crawler is definitely a nice, grindy solution. Always forget about it outside of infinite use in Azami or whatever other blue infinite mana deck...
But, are there some combos that even at casual tables are so mana-intensive or otherwise "janky" as to be deemed acceptable? Something like Vela the Night-Clad + kicked Rite of Replication. RoR on Reaper King also works.
What are some other "janky" combos that come to mind that the majority of EDH players might not be super mad to lose to?
What's Sidisi usually tutoring for? Basalt Monolith + Rings of Brighthearth + Exsanguinate? I must be missing something really key, or I just overestimate U - I just have a hard time imagining a deck without counterspell backup powering it's combo through a table full of counterspells waiting for it.
EDIT: or Helm of Obedience + Leyline of the Void? or Mike + Trike?
That's not false. I was hoping for little more... elegant solution Other than the painful slowness of beating people to death with utility critters, it also technically gives them more time/turns to come up with some way to break out of a lock.
Oh man, I hadn't paid attention to it's price in a few years - last I recall it was somewhere in the $80-120 range.