I'ma have to put a vote in for Gaddock Teeg. His unique and powerful ability has made him one of my favorite commanders. If you're planing in a more casual meta, he shuts down a good portion of decks all by himself, and with the backup of a deck full of hatebears and their ilk (Sony Silence = MVP), you can really put the hurt on all decks. The most interesting part to figure out is how to win around the limitations your deck puts in place. Creature beats and a variety of creature and/or enchantment-based combos are both viable options.
If anything, Cultivator's Caravan should be the only relatively obvious vehicle include in the list. A cantripping three drop rock is nothing to scoff at. It's played pretty well in my list draft so far. I'm not running any other vehicles at this time, to put into context that the Caravan is quite nice
Agreed. It's versatility is great. I think Smuggler's Copter is on par. Looting away lands late-game in favor of more gas is a nice effect for white.
Haven't gotten to play with it yet but Restoration Specialist looks like it'd fit in beautifully here as part of your recursion package. Gets back two spells, then it itself is pulled out by several of your other abilities. Not sure exactly what I'd cut though.
Interesting card - wasn't on my radar. I'll keep it in mind as I tighten things up!
Couple of more draw tech Stone Haven Outfitter Avarice Amulet if equipped creature is your general than never gets passed along. A better/worse staff of nin.
Most of the vehicles are pretty underwhelming, drop the junk, keep the couple good ones. Ie kiran bad, flagship good
On the note of drawing, Terrain generator would do some work here and i know its top heavy but Emeria Shepherd will do wonders for you.
Emeria Shepherd reminds me of another card that I've been considering - Angel of Glory's Rise. I think Shepherd is probably the better card overall (ability to get any nonland permanent), but given that pretty much all of the utility creatures in this deck are Humans, Angel of Glory's Rise could potentially provide a ton of value.
EDIT: I've also thought about going totally sans-Vehicles. Or maybe just Smuggler's Copter and maybeCultivator's Caravan. Then just upping the equipment count, as out of all three types (Aura, Equipment, Vehicle), white has the most support for Equipment, and they're generally the best value (not getting 2-for-1'd like Auras do).
So, this is my first take/rough draft on Sram, Senior Edificer. I'm pretty excited to have a pretty consistent draw engine for mono-W now available in the command zone. I wanted to try to take advantage of this draw power without going overboard on jamming Auras, Equipment, and Vehicles (the latter I'm particularly unsure about, as I haven't had a chance to really play with any of the new Vehicle cards to actually get a feel for their value). Instead, I tried to work with the synergies that white has with these card types (the relatively new Sigarda's Aid is a real all-star). I'm happy to explain my reasoning for any particular card choices, and I hope to put up a card explanations section here as I'm able. And I'd love to hear any suggestions that you may have, as well.
P.S. - If anyone can remind me how to float text, so that I can put the deck lists next to each other, I'd greatly appreciate it.
Changes
1/26/17:
-1 Heart of Kiran / +1 Stone Haven Outfitter: Of the three types of cards that Sram triggers off of, Vehicles are pretty clearly the worst. Cutting one of the worst of those in favor of another card that synergizes with the best type - Equipment.
It's always interesting to me that these types of threads seem to invariably get a little bit of "absolutely not" and a little bit of "absolutely yes" responses.
I guess it depends a lot on what kind of meta you play in. In this case, it seems like Sanctum Prelate might not be great in the most absolute "Tier S" of metas where everyone is trying to combo the table out on turn 4, might be pretty good in pretty competitive metas with well-tuned decks with "good stuff" in them (signets, cyclonic rift, charms, etc.), and might not be great in less competitive metas where the CMC range is going to be from 0-15.
As always, I suppose playtesting is the only real answer I think I should start putting a poll on these, though.
#worth in hatebear-ish decks that can reliably tutor, recur, and otherwise abuse creatures? Generally, effects that are "narrow" like this aren't great in EDH, what with the wide range of CMCs being played. If you know that a wrath would hurt you the most in the near future, though, naming 4CMC seems good, etc. Thoughts?
I found reading all the entries in these installments both a little humorous and somewhat thought-provoking. Definitely looking forward to future posts.
I'm sitting here mulling over the placement of Dack Fayden at #1 overall, though, and just wondering how much value you can reasonably expect to get out of him vs. some others. Yes, stealing a Gilded Lotus is a pretty big tempo loss for one opponent and gain for you, but how many uses are you realistically going to be able to get of his -2 ability? I would guess 1, on average, though I could be wrong; 1.5 if being generous. His +1 ability is kinda "meh." I'm still just inclined to believe that Tezzeret the Seeker is stronger on the basis that: (1) playing your own cards (i.e. tutoring them to the battlefield) is a more consistently good strategy than hoping to steal one of your opponents' cards; (2) tutoring an artifact into play is an extremely rare (and valuable, given the power level of artifacts) ability; and (3) his +1 ability can reliably give you more tempo than Dack's -2 (untapping Worn Powerstone and Gilded Lotus is a pretty big game).
I tend to gravitate toward building/playing decks that are relatively reactive in nature. I like to be able to answer opponents' threats and generally frustrate their plans until the time seems right to make my own push for victory.
However, as I've been revisiting Azusa, Lost but Seeking, I've been debating the merit of devoting card slots to removal. The question I've been asking myself is - How many cards could I realistically see my opponents playing that I actually care about answering? Are they going to be faster than me? If they're trying to combo out on turn 4, then they will and there's not a lot I can do to interact with that anyways. If they're playing any type of "fair" strategy, then they're not likely to be faster than me or play more relevant threats than me, in which case having removal in my deck only dilutes its own consistency and effectiveness in carrying out my own proactive strategy.
How many cards would totally hose me? Humility? Sort of Torpor Orb, but not totally. Glacial Chasm, again only sort of. Maybe you guys could help me think of more cards that would totally hose the "ramp super fast and drop super-difficult-to-answer threats super early" strategy, thereby validating the inclusion of removal spells. Or maybe you'll go the other way and list decks that you've played that function best with very little/no removal, instead just being really proactive. I just always see pseudo-insults slung around on these boards that decks that don't run removal are bad, and that's always colored my thinking.
I'm bumping my old list up, as Azusa, Lost but Seeking is a commander I'm still interested in tweaking, and a lot of thought (both mine, and more importantly others') has been compiled in this thread.
- Cavern of Souls is a card that's a no-brainer here. I suppose taking a Forest out is a simple enough solution.
- Sol Ring and Mana Crypt are two cards that I've always been on the fence about here. They're great turn 1, and not so great at any other point in the game. But isn't that how they are in most decks anyways? You take the potential downside of drawing them late for the immense upside of the explosive start they can give you? With the M14 rules change negatively effecting cumulative "additional land" drops, it feels all the more important to be able to get Azusa down on turn 2 instead of turn 3, when your opponents are less likely to be able to immediately disrupt her.
- Surrak, the Hunt Caller seems excellent here. Question is, what to cut? I've been debating the value of removal in Azusa, whether in the form of creatures such as Steel Hellkite and Duplicant, which are at least tutorable and therefore available somewhat on demand, or in the form of other spells such as Beast Within, Oblivion Stone, or All is Dust this is a deck that really wants to be proactive, as opposed to reactive, so how many slots (if any) do we really want to devote to removal?
- Titania, Protector of Argoth also seems like she absolutely has to come in. She can nab one of our utility lands (which are incredibly important to this deck) back from the graveyard, and create an army pretty quickly in a deck like this that hits more land drops than any other. She serves kind of the same function as Rampaging Baloths, so the question is whether to cut the Baloths to make room for her, or find something else to cut to run her alongside the Baloths.
- Conduit of Ruin seems fantastic in this deck. He can fetch up a big threat, and makes casting our big threats even easier. Again, what to cut to make room?
- What to do about all the legendary Eldrazi now available (Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, Kozilek, the Great Distortion, Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger, Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre, and Emrakul, the Promised End). As crazy as it sounds to say, Emmy feels too low-impact. Taking over 1 players turn is underwhelming, and while trample gets him in to beat face pretty well, beating face is of less value than annihilating the board. I think it's safe to say that Kozilek 1.0 is enough better here that he just beats out 2.0, and I don't think 2.0 is worth running in addition. When it comes to the two Ulamogs, though, I'm less sure. I love the annihilator on 1.0, but the cast ability on 2.0 is amazing. So maybe run Kozilek 1.0 and Ulamogs 1.0 and 2.0?
- I really wonder about the merit of Genesis Wave without a haste outlet for everything. I don't love the universal effect of Concordant Crossroads, which would leave us with Akroma's Memorial as our only real option. It's not tutorable (unless we put in Planar Portal), but you might hit it in the Gwave. Worth?
Are there any other cards that have been released in the past 4.5 years that are exceptional for this deck? I know that covers a lot of sets, but maybe people have something that comes right to mind. In any case, the list as it stands had a lot of research and peoples' opinions put into it, and I'd like to keep going forward with it. Thanks!
EDIT:
- World Breaker is another very interesting new creature possibility for this deck. Better than Acidic Slime? Possibly.
Don't know if OP ever still checks in, but I was wondering why the spell ramp is all of the 2CMC variety (Nature's Lore, Into the North, Three Visits). Does this deck just really want to get to 4 mana ASAP?
Just curious - partly as a hypthetical, partly as a brewing idea. What 1 card would you choose (let's say you had all 5 colors to work with) if you only wanted to dedicate 1 card slot to being a "win condition" in your deck? Helix Pinnacle? Memnarch? Karn Liberated? Curious as to your suggestions!
Breaking the symmetry of cards like that is one of the most fun and interesting things to do in Commander, for me. Break Horn with Azusa. Break 'geddon with mana rocks. Break board clears by playing almost creatureless. Break Wheels by ramping harder or curving lower. Cards that make me think about them even before gameplay in deck construction are awesome. Love 'em love 'em love 'em.
Huh. Dunno why I'd never thought of it that way. I have no problem loading up on mana rocks then dropping a 'Geddon (extra style points for Ravages of War). When I glump Horn of Greed into the "breaking the symmetry" category, it's much more tolerable.
I would personally cut the Spirit and add a Filth in there. The evasion is often sorely needed in my experience and the Spirit is often largely irrelevant. Looks pretty stock though.
I'll keep that in mind.
Regarding "stock"-ness... yeah. It's pretty close to Reid Duke's list, with splashes of Shawn Riggins' and Relico Fererro's ideas thrown in. I pretty much just got my guidance from the new primer in the Legacy forum and went from there. Hopefully playtesting will help me figure out how to personalize it for myself.
Agreed. It's versatility is great. I think Smuggler's Copter is on par. Looting away lands late-game in favor of more gas is a nice effect for white.
Interesting card - wasn't on my radar. I'll keep it in mind as I tighten things up!
I had Stone Haven Outfitter in my very, very first draft of this deck. Initially, I took it out for something else, just due to it's reactive (as opposed to proactive nature like Sram, Senior Edificer, Kor Spiritdancer, and Puresteel Paladin), however I imagine it could do a lot of work. Maybe I'll slide Heart of Kiran out and Outfiter back in.
Emeria Shepherd reminds me of another card that I've been considering - Angel of Glory's Rise. I think Shepherd is probably the better card overall (ability to get any nonland permanent), but given that pretty much all of the utility creatures in this deck are Humans, Angel of Glory's Rise could potentially provide a ton of value.
EDIT: I've also thought about going totally sans-Vehicles. Or maybe just Smuggler's Copter and maybe Cultivator's Caravan. Then just upping the equipment count, as out of all three types (Aura, Equipment, Vehicle), white has the most support for Equipment, and they're generally the best value (not getting 2-for-1'd like Auras do).
P.S. - If anyone can remind me how to float text, so that I can put the deck lists next to each other, I'd greatly appreciate it.
Deck stats. Avg. CMC = 2.82.
By Function
1 Sram, Senior Edificer
//Draw Engines (4)
1 Kor Spiritdancer
1 Puresteel Paladin
1 Stone Haven Outfitter
1 Mentor of the Meek
//Auras (8)
1 Ethereal Armor
1 Hyena Umbra
1 Daybreak Coronet
1 Spirit Mantle
1 Asha's Favor
1 Battle Mastery
1 Gift of Immortality
1 Angelic Destiny
//Equipment (8)
1 Skullclamp (+ draw)
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Swiftfoot Boots
1 Loxodon Warhammer
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Fire and Ice (+ draw/removal)
1 Sword of Light and Shadow (+ recursion)
1 Sword of Vengeance
//Vehicles (6)
1 Consulate Dreadnought
1 Cultivator's Caravan (+ ramp)
1 Smuggler's Copter
1 Bomat Bazaar Barge
1 Fleetwheel Cruiser
1 Skysovereign, Consul Flagship (+ removal)
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Nahiri, the Lithomancer
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion (+ removal)
//Ramp (6)
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Knight of the White Orchid
1 Mind Stone
1 Solemn Simulacrum
//Tutors (8)
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Steelshaper's Gift
1 Open the Armory
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Idyllic Tutor
1 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Ranger of Eos
1 Thalia's Lancers
//Recursion (6)
1 Buried Ruin
1 Emeria, the Sky Ruin
1 Karmic Guide
1 Reveillark
1 Sun Titan
1 Bruna, the Fading Light
//Removal (6)
1 Strip Mine
1 Wasteland
1 Path to Exile
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Fate Forgotten
1 Return to Dust
1 Kytheon, Hero of Akros
1 Serra Ascendant
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Silverblade Paladin
1 Gisela, the Broken Blade
1 Odric, Lunarch Marshal
1 Angelic Overseer
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
//Utility (7)
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 High Market
1 Kor Haven
1 Winding Canyons
1 Mother of Runes
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sigarda's Aid
1 Sram's Expertise
//Fetches (4)
1 Arid Mesa
1 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath
//Mana (23)
23 Plains
By Type
1 Sram, Senior Edificer
//Creature (23)
1 Kytheon, Hero of Akros
1 Mother of Runes
1 Serra Ascendant
1 Knight of the White Orchid
1 Kor Spiritdancer
1 Puresteel Paladin
1 Stone Haven Outfitter
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Mentor of the Meek
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Silverblade Paladin
1 Gisela, the Broken Blade
1 Odric, Lunarch Marshal
1 Ranger of Eos
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Angelic Overseer
1 Karmic Guide
1 Reveillark
1 Thalia's Lancers
1 Sun Titan
1 Bruna, the Fading Light
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
//Instant (6)
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Path to Exile
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Fate Forgotten
1 Return to Dust
1 Steelshaper's Gift
1 Open the Armory
1 Idyllic Tutor
1 Sram's Expertise
//Artifact (19)
1 Mana Crypt
1 Consulate Dreadnought
1 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Skullclamp
1 Sol Ring
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Mind Stone
1 Swiftfoot Boots
1 Cultivator's Caravan
1 Loxodon Warhammer
1 Smuggler's Copter
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Vengeance
1 Bomat Bazaar Barge
1 Fleetwheel Cruiser
1 Skysovereign, Consul Flagship
//Enchantment (10)
1 Ethereal Armor
1 Hyena Umbra
1 Land Tax
1 Sigarda's Aid
1 Daybreak Coronet
1 Spirit Mantle
1 Asha's Favor
1 Battle Mastery
1 Gift of Immortality
1 Angelic Destiny
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Nahiri, the Lithomancer
1 Elspeth, Sun’s Champion
//Land (36)
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Arid Mesa
1 Buried Ruin
1 Emeria, the Sky Ruin
1 Flooded Strand
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 High Market
1 Kor Haven
1 Marsh Flats
23 Plains
1 Strip Mine
1 Wasteland
1 Winding Canyons
1 Windswept Heath
Changes
1/26/17:
-1 Heart of Kiran / +1 Stone Haven Outfitter: Of the three types of cards that Sram triggers off of, Vehicles are pretty clearly the worst. Cutting one of the worst of those in favor of another card that synergizes with the best type - Equipment.
I guess it depends a lot on what kind of meta you play in. In this case, it seems like Sanctum Prelate might not be great in the most absolute "Tier S" of metas where everyone is trying to combo the table out on turn 4, might be pretty good in pretty competitive metas with well-tuned decks with "good stuff" in them (signets, cyclonic rift, charms, etc.), and might not be great in less competitive metas where the CMC range is going to be from 0-15.
As always, I suppose playtesting is the only real answer I think I should start putting a poll on these, though.
#worth in hatebear-ish decks that can reliably tutor, recur, and otherwise abuse creatures? Generally, effects that are "narrow" like this aren't great in EDH, what with the wide range of CMCs being played. If you know that a wrath would hurt you the most in the near future, though, naming 4CMC seems good, etc. Thoughts?
I'm sitting here mulling over the placement of Dack Fayden at #1 overall, though, and just wondering how much value you can reasonably expect to get out of him vs. some others. Yes, stealing a Gilded Lotus is a pretty big tempo loss for one opponent and gain for you, but how many uses are you realistically going to be able to get of his -2 ability? I would guess 1, on average, though I could be wrong; 1.5 if being generous. His +1 ability is kinda "meh." I'm still just inclined to believe that Tezzeret the Seeker is stronger on the basis that: (1) playing your own cards (i.e. tutoring them to the battlefield) is a more consistently good strategy than hoping to steal one of your opponents' cards; (2) tutoring an artifact into play is an extremely rare (and valuable, given the power level of artifacts) ability; and (3) his +1 ability can reliably give you more tempo than Dack's -2 (untapping Worn Powerstone and Gilded Lotus is a pretty big game).
However, as I've been revisiting Azusa, Lost but Seeking, I've been debating the merit of devoting card slots to removal. The question I've been asking myself is - How many cards could I realistically see my opponents playing that I actually care about answering? Are they going to be faster than me? If they're trying to combo out on turn 4, then they will and there's not a lot I can do to interact with that anyways. If they're playing any type of "fair" strategy, then they're not likely to be faster than me or play more relevant threats than me, in which case having removal in my deck only dilutes its own consistency and effectiveness in carrying out my own proactive strategy.
How many cards would totally hose me? Humility? Sort of Torpor Orb, but not totally. Glacial Chasm, again only sort of. Maybe you guys could help me think of more cards that would totally hose the "ramp super fast and drop super-difficult-to-answer threats super early" strategy, thereby validating the inclusion of removal spells. Or maybe you'll go the other way and list decks that you've played that function best with very little/no removal, instead just being really proactive. I just always see pseudo-insults slung around on these boards that decks that don't run removal are bad, and that's always colored my thinking.
- Cavern of Souls is a card that's a no-brainer here. I suppose taking a Forest out is a simple enough solution.
- Sol Ring and Mana Crypt are two cards that I've always been on the fence about here. They're great turn 1, and not so great at any other point in the game. But isn't that how they are in most decks anyways? You take the potential downside of drawing them late for the immense upside of the explosive start they can give you? With the M14 rules change negatively effecting cumulative "additional land" drops, it feels all the more important to be able to get Azusa down on turn 2 instead of turn 3, when your opponents are less likely to be able to immediately disrupt her.
- Surrak, the Hunt Caller seems excellent here. Question is, what to cut? I've been debating the value of removal in Azusa, whether in the form of creatures such as Steel Hellkite and Duplicant, which are at least tutorable and therefore available somewhat on demand, or in the form of other spells such as Beast Within, Oblivion Stone, or All is Dust this is a deck that really wants to be proactive, as opposed to reactive, so how many slots (if any) do we really want to devote to removal?
- Titania, Protector of Argoth also seems like she absolutely has to come in. She can nab one of our utility lands (which are incredibly important to this deck) back from the graveyard, and create an army pretty quickly in a deck like this that hits more land drops than any other. She serves kind of the same function as Rampaging Baloths, so the question is whether to cut the Baloths to make room for her, or find something else to cut to run her alongside the Baloths.
- Conduit of Ruin seems fantastic in this deck. He can fetch up a big threat, and makes casting our big threats even easier. Again, what to cut to make room?
- What to do about all the legendary Eldrazi now available (Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, Kozilek, the Great Distortion, Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger, Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre, and Emrakul, the Promised End). As crazy as it sounds to say, Emmy feels too low-impact. Taking over 1 players turn is underwhelming, and while trample gets him in to beat face pretty well, beating face is of less value than annihilating the board. I think it's safe to say that Kozilek 1.0 is enough better here that he just beats out 2.0, and I don't think 2.0 is worth running in addition. When it comes to the two Ulamogs, though, I'm less sure. I love the annihilator on 1.0, but the cast ability on 2.0 is amazing. So maybe run Kozilek 1.0 and Ulamogs 1.0 and 2.0?
- I really wonder about the merit of Genesis Wave without a haste outlet for everything. I don't love the universal effect of Concordant Crossroads, which would leave us with Akroma's Memorial as our only real option. It's not tutorable (unless we put in Planar Portal), but you might hit it in the Gwave. Worth?
Are there any other cards that have been released in the past 4.5 years that are exceptional for this deck? I know that covers a lot of sets, but maybe people have something that comes right to mind. In any case, the list as it stands had a lot of research and peoples' opinions put into it, and I'd like to keep going forward with it. Thanks!
EDIT:
- World Breaker is another very interesting new creature possibility for this deck. Better than Acidic Slime? Possibly.
I'm ashamed to have overlooked this. Looking at my off-the-cuff suggestions in the first post, you can probably see what colors my mind's been in
EDIT: Primal Surge / Genesis Wave? Mind's Desire?
Huh. Dunno why I'd never thought of it that way. I have no problem loading up on mana rocks then dropping a 'Geddon (extra style points for Ravages of War). When I glump Horn of Greed into the "breaking the symmetry" category, it's much more tolerable.