I think even with Keyrune (which I think I'm going to start trying the 1 of, but I feel like this deck could utilize two very well) you only run 2 rakdos return.
As a former U/W/R player I can say. Spamming the board with creatures is not how you deal with control. Heck, control is made for that. You play a single threat, force me to deal with it in an awkward way (say, forcing me to verdict a single blood baron) and punish me for doing so (rakdos return works, or obzedat, or a haste dragon). I often lose if didn't find the right answer to your complicated threat.
Thoughtseize and sin collector are great tools against control, since they take away the tools to respond to certain threats. WBR also has access to slaughter games, or pithing needle, which both shut down the wincons of the control decks right now. I'm honestly more worried about WBR viability against mono-red or G/R mid than against control.
A mono red player made a play that seemed very intelligent last night that follows this philosophy. It's turn 3, the mono read player has some 2 drop and a firedrinker. Against U/W Control he pretty much goes, "okay, instead of dropping a creature here, I'm going to do this intelligently." Pumps up the satyr, swings in, gets his damage, passes turn. Next turn the U/W supremes, the mono red player now has an extra creature card because he recognizes this. You don't need to overextend, and for WBR midrange, the idea of extending is maddening.
"Hello U/W/X, here is blood baron, I'm sure you'll be fine against me right? Oh, while we're at it, I'm going to slaughter games in game 2 against Rev, the card that keeps you reloading. If I find a needle, aetherling is leaving town as well, or maybe your Jace." I don't even know HOW U/W/X can beat that right now. I just don't.
Our matchup against U/W/X is really good BECAUSE of the creature packages we have at our disposal. We can punish turn 4 Jace very well with a slew of creatures, removal, and spells. We play a variety of creatures that aren't good, but are a pain in the dick to deal with.
For this reason I have been contemplating very long and hard at a 4th blood baron. Once this thing sticks it is an allstar against BOTH aggro and control. When I first saw him, I assumed he was legendary because very rarely I saw lists with 4, but really, what exactly are we waiting for? What makes a fourth blood baron so taboo?
Also, with a control matchup where we have a minimal amount of threats that we HAVE to deal with, why haven't we started taking a closer look at Anger Mainboard? There's no shame in playing 4x Anger of the Gods mainboard, hell if you compare it to Slagstorm it happened ALL the time.
I think our deck can treat the meta like this, "we have to tool kits to completely hose aggro as well as provide reasonable disruption for control, once we move to game 2 we can really start grinding down on the matchup by fine-tuning the deck and removing 2-3 dead cards as well as sideboarding in 4-5 much more finely tuned cards for the matchup."
I think Dega is EASILY in the best spot, unlike U/W/X we can timely land creatures to clamp down on aggro, and for a midrange deck we certainly contain a hell of a lot of hand disruption and can pretty much dictate how control has to play, which feels like a rare gift.
What you don't realize is since that dude joined the Thread a few days ago, he has slung personal jabs at me and has trolled me along the way.
I finally sling back and now it's I can't take constructive criticism?
I think not, my deck has evolved based on GOOD/Thoughtful/Thought Provoking criticism, there's a difference between Trolling and Constructive Criticism.
And FYI, yes I may have thrown that deck together in 10 minutes, but I've been developing this deck for more then a few months and been on this Thread for weeks now.
I know what cards are good and what cards aren't, it wouldn't take long to throw together a variation to beat a SINGLE deck.
Yes I know we don't design a deck to beat just the Mirror, I put that deck together and asked a bunch of questions while adding some food for thought and opened up a discussion.
Magma Jet:
There are so many good Midrange decks out there at this point, JET just won't cut it. It's SCRY 2 is almost worth rolling with it anyways, but it just isn't putting in enough work as I would like. Sure it'll hit some of the Weeny Creatures early, but isn't doing me enough late, so I went with more value spells that will cause an Immediate impact.
Concern: This will make the deck less smooth for my liking, might force me to rely on Top Decks more in any given matchup, but with 3 Read the Bones + 7 SCRY Lands + Connections, I think it'll still give me a nice mix.
Removal Package:
So with no Jets, I looked at all the early first 2 to 3 turns Removal. There really isn't much that I like right now.
Doom Blade - There's lots of Black creatures that will be in this Format that are going to be Format Staples in my opinion. Sure I could run say 2 and side them out, but I would rather not. With a lot of those problem creatures being 4 Toughness, I'd say it maybe wiser instead of running Doom Blades, run extra Mortars.
Mizzium Mortars - Baron is going to be a problem, so I do agree with people who are mainboarding Mizzium Mortars. I thought my initial list would be ok to bring Mortars from the side, but Baron is a lot more heavier at my shop then I expected. So it comes into the main.
Chained to the Rocks - I really don't like it, I've heard the debates, and I think those who are going with it have great valid points. I believe as the Format becomes less and less new, and we start to see what the Format will look like as decks rise and fall, I think Chained to the Rocks isn't going to be as good as say it maybe right NOW.
Anger of the Gods - I went all 4 in my Mainboard with the idea that I can Chump with Reckoners, I can do some Dreadbore Action, maybe Seize a early threat before it drops, and other low costing stuff and easily get me to Turn 3. Where I can then Wipe the board, prepare things for Turn 5 Lifegain. If we're getting to Turn 3 VS Aggro decks with more then half our life, our chances of winning increase big time. If you can clear the board on Turn 3 or 4, then drop your fatty they can't deal with and start gaining life, that's all the matchup really is. It's an easy 4 Slot Side Out VS Control decks.
Hero's Downfall - I know the BB debate, I think there's valid points. However; again because Midrange Decks are so good, there's such amazing creatures sitting at around 4 and 5 CMC and it only gets better on up, Downfall Mid/Late game works, you'll have BB at that point. I wanted more effects to DESTROY Creatures/Walkers out right, none of this ping them here, ping them there and pray. D.E.A.D
Thoughtseize @3 VS @4 -
I went back to 3 Thoughtseize simply because I also run the 2 Sin Collectors. I thought 5 Targeted Discard effects to pull certain cards should be fine. Thoughtseize pulls anything, while Sin Collector nabs removal to clear the way for my Midrange Beats. As much as I really want 4 Thoughtseize, I've been a big advocate for 4 Thoughtseize, the Aggro decks are just going to be very efficient, maybe not quite as fast as the previous format, but they are going to be very efficient. I don't want to have Thoughtseize mucking up my hands and Top Decks to much after the first 2 Turns.
Sideboard:
Erebos, God of the Dead - I really like this card a lot... Even if I NEVER use the Draw/Pain portion of his abilities. I love the card strictly/specifically because it makes it so our Opponents can't gain life. There are some amazing creatures out there that gain life that are tough to deal with, and do I really need to talk about Whip? If you're playing black it seems, you're playing Whip. Forget about the DRAW ability, for 4 Mana, I get an Indestructable Enchantment that says my Opponents can not can life. #SignMeUp
BONUS: If I'm not drawing my Read the Bones or I don't have my Connections going, then sure, I can use the Draw. But the idea that with all the Read the Bones, Shock Lands, Connections and Erebos I'm losing massive amounts of life, NO. I'm making sure the deck doesn't have to rely on Read the Bones, or Connections. Half the time 1 Read the Bones is enough in a given game... We get to our Midrange then Connections does all the work while we gain massive amounts of life back. Then at that point it's a Value Read the Bones as losing the life makes no bit of difference. I'm not the only one that plays this deck, so those of you playing this deck outta know that through smart play you can work around the life loss and make it to not be impactful.
Lifebane Zombie - I went all in with Lifebane here, because I know that GW Aggro will be a thing. If there was say a GB deck, where Lifebane isn't as effective cuz they run Black, then no. Or a WR Aggro where they don't run a lot of White creatures... But GW Aggro, Lifebane hits ALL of their possible creatures. I believe GW Aggro will be a top 5 deck easy, and so I went all in with my Lifebanes. VS That kind of deck, Lifebane will put in some SERIOUS work. VS Mirror or GB, I may bring in 2 Lifebanes, not the full package. But VS Mono White, VS GW Aggro, Mono Green, Lifebane could put in some serious work.
Obzedat - Honestly, I only put him in here to shore up the Mirror a bit more. Thing is, Mirror matches they're most likely thinking/doing the same thing as us. I think the Mirror is going to be a hella fun challenge and a battle of wills!
Duress - I opted for Duress instead of more Sin Collectors or the 4th Thoughtseize simply because I didn't want the 4th Thoughtseize for damage purposes, and Sin Collector has it's limitations. Duress merely comes in VS Control and Permission Control, it hits over half their deck.
Mizzium Mortars - More to help shore up the BWR matchup, Mortars kills half our creatures easy. Also VS BW, or Esper, any decks with opposing Barons/Stormbreaths. Mortars is key!
Slaughter Games - I don't know how much I need this, but it seems like a no brainer to me. I'm taking constant peeks at my Opponents hand, Slaughter Games can and will be a catch all card to neutralize any threat.
Wear/Tear - For Weapons (Whip/Hammer/Spear), other Equipment, Burning Earth, and other problematic ENCH/ARTs.
Honorable Mention: Contaminated Ground - I toyed with this card before Rotation, and it put in work VS 3 Color Decks like Esper Sphinx's Revelation/Supreme Verdict. Where the mana bases are extremely greedy on COLOR, Ground did some interesting things and made for some very interesting color scew situations. Is it right for our deck? Probalby not, but I wanted to mention it, it did me well in my BW Aggro Blitz deck.
...there are many other Honorable Mentions, but I can't think of them all right now.
I'll let y'all catch up with this post and find new ways to dog me.
I still almost want to see another Scry the bones over the underworld connection, ALMOST. How's lifebane zombie rolling for you in that board? I don't know if you saw my list I posted last night, it's a silly mess, but I still had fun (which is a rare occurrence if you've watched other people play magic, you could swear they're at their second or third job.)
Slaughter games is actually really f'king good in the Mirror, you can start taking away a lot of key cards and fast! Also, so down with 4x Anger main. Just cut the bull----, kill their threats and force them to play your game, when the meta settles move it to 3 for something else.
Right now my main concern/internal battle with this deck is "Is desecration demon really that bad for the curve?" Turn 3 Reckoner, turn 4 dese, turn 5 obze, come at me, please, please do it.
1 - The mainboard Whip, I'm not convinced.
2 - The deck needs to play more small ball, have you seen what happens when your opponent drops a high-priest of pennance?
3 - My creature base is obviously greedy as ****, please don't follow it, if you are find a slot for Elspeth in there, as well.
4 - We need a creature that is somewhat like precinct captain, the type of threat that is cheap enough to drop early, but something our opponent has to deal with. Maybe we don't need it, but I'd like it a lot more than just holding cards for 30 turns while our opponent does the same. Is our "good stuff" that much better than everyone else's "good stuff" that we can afford to do this up until turn 4,5, maybe 6?
Just some food for thought, any critique is welcome.
Hey thanks, it has def gone through a lot of changes.
Even the first list I posted here was quite of few versions from the list I started a few months before Theros spoiled.
I been planning this deck for a Post Rotation deck for a long time.
As for the Obzedat issue - You know whats funny, somehow we must be on the same wavelength or something.
While at the DR. Office today, waiting; when I have free time I like to pull up my list and analyze it and solitaire it and go over it with a fine toothed comb.
I'm always thinking about my decks for the most part, even at home I have my decks fanned out so when I walk by them I glance at them looking for holes.
So it's funny, I came to this realization as well today.
Mainboard the idea would be to just Thoughtseize him and Stormbreath also can block him down easy.
Beyond that, it'll be shenanigans of Blocking and maybe doing a Jet or something.
In the side I have since added 2 Hero's Downfall for some extra added Beefy Creature removal, and specifically one of those creatures I had in mind was Obzedat.
You hit the nail right on the head though...
Obzedat quite honestly can be played around, he's not that insane to deal with in a deck with very very good creatures ourselves.
But I do want an out other then creature shenanigans.
I think I forgot about this because my list I brought here had Mainboarded Hero's Downfall, then I switched to Dreadbores and forgot about that threat.
I've seen a lot of BWR lists leave him out, so I think it'll be ok Seizing him or having Stormbreath deal with him in the main, then bringing in extra hate from the side if I know they run it.
Kamahl, I don't know what your talent level is... when I first came to the thread and identified you as the starter of the Primer, I paid attention to your insight and posts.
I thought you brought a lot of insight to most of your replies, which built trust.
Then you posted your Article, seriously although I didn't agree with few of the things in there, you explained them in such away that it still provided an insane amount of logic to a deck I have put a lot of time and effort into as well.
This told me, Talent level must be through the roof, trust this guy.
So I greatly appreciate the time you're putting in, the time it took for you to do that article, greatly appreciated. It brought a lot to our development even if we agree/disagree with some of the premise. You opened our minds...
To anyone that wouldn't of received it well, they shouldn't be here and be aloud to post.
You weren't once saying this was how it had to be, or this was THE LIST, you presented us with options, insight, and an initial list, a great foundation.
Who would not appreciate that? Only idiots... LOL
Absolutely love your newest list! (Surprise, no Wild Guesses... haha *sarcasm)
The oddity here, I'm not the first to comment or notice is Trading Post.
Very interesting... Not my cup of tea, but... BUT I really like the idea a lot.
I for one have always hated Trading Post decks, and never been a fan of the Post in general.
However; it really could do us some good as you said, dumping resources that we don't need to trade them in for resources we do need.
Just 1 Trading Post doesn't make this a Trading Post deck, and I can see totally the applications for it.
I will give this a try...
How are you liking it?
Dude seriously, looks great!
Just like someone said about mine, they appreciated the process and how my deck has evolved.
I could say the same to you sir! Nice job!
Good luck!
Zero complaints about your deck, the Initiative is the only card but because you're running Swallower/Reckoner, I totally get it. We've gone down that road, I understand.
Me too!
I'll post my exact list shortly but if the format is as slow as I think it is, it might be time to play some Hero's Downfall to kill some of these creatures.
Another issue I had tonight was a goddamn blood baron, we can't just sit back and say "we'll take care of it before it's played." Although, major oversite removing my mortars to my board in the matchup. Tonight was a bit weird, I have been sick a majority of the week so I just put a bunch of cards together and went for it. I only played one round and pretty much let the guy roll me over (Judge, yeah, round 1 2-0 drop! wasn't going to do that.)
Is my most recent list. It was a bit different, but I talked myself into Whip and Obzedat last night and then the single Trading Post, which is generally good for catching you up against aggro off the additional lifegain.
Trading post is really good at converting resources. Extra lands and Thoughtseize just become something else when you do not need them. I am actually really happy with Trading Post as a 1 of.
No Magma Jet and 2 Aurelia seems so greedy with no main-deck anger and no main-deck whip to get a second go out of the same aurelia. Is that a meta decision? Even the muta vaults in 3 colors seems greedy to me, but I think I remember someone crunching the numbers on why it was safe, perhaps it was you kam.
I actually just tweeked the mana again... I'm at 7 CIPT lands, and didn't add the 3rd Swamp and still kept the same color pool.
I think this looks better then even the previous mana list I did.
Rotten I've really come to appreciate how your list has been evolving to something that "feels" right when I have been testing. My one big question though is how are you dealing with an opponent with Obzedat? Are you Slaughtering it out? What happens when they top deck it? Just race the ETB effect?
Wild Guess - Keep in mind, that was just an initial list. I don't even think Kamahl is running Guess, he was just showing there are potentially other options out there for draw.
As for Aurelia, I wasn't sold on her either, but wow... In testing, she just ENDs games.
I disagree with this idea that if you drop her, she'll just get killed and that we'll be lucky if she swings for 6. Keep in mind, a good chunk of this deck is hand disruption and designed to draw out the Removal and Clear their Hand well before she drops.
It's been testing insanely good! I cut my Aurelia count down to 1, but yea she can out right END a game out of nowhere, and I like what Kamahl said, she has the power to END a game that we had no right winning in the first place. She is that good...
I see, I'd like to get a peak at a list tuned to dealing with mostly aggro in the form of rdw/seles/naya and esper control. My guess is that Wild GUess doesn't make it in those cases.
I don't expect to see much of the mirror, but I expect a crap ton of Esper a crap ton of aggro, a little midrange and some UWR Control as well.
Not sold on Wild Guess (the card just seems awful) or Aurelia. Aurelia seems like she wants to tempo out, in the current state of removal she will just get killed and we'll be lucky if she swings for 6 with another creature on board.
Another black card that strongly hints at Evoke returning in Theros.
Just because it works well with a mechanic, I would hardly call that hinting. There's a white creature that talks about enchantment retrieval, that doesn't hint that an enchantment block is coming.
A mono red player made a play that seemed very intelligent last night that follows this philosophy. It's turn 3, the mono read player has some 2 drop and a firedrinker. Against U/W Control he pretty much goes, "okay, instead of dropping a creature here, I'm going to do this intelligently." Pumps up the satyr, swings in, gets his damage, passes turn. Next turn the U/W supremes, the mono red player now has an extra creature card because he recognizes this. You don't need to overextend, and for WBR midrange, the idea of extending is maddening.
"Hello U/W/X, here is blood baron, I'm sure you'll be fine against me right? Oh, while we're at it, I'm going to slaughter games in game 2 against Rev, the card that keeps you reloading. If I find a needle, aetherling is leaving town as well, or maybe your Jace." I don't even know HOW U/W/X can beat that right now. I just don't.
Our matchup against U/W/X is really good BECAUSE of the creature packages we have at our disposal. We can punish turn 4 Jace very well with a slew of creatures, removal, and spells. We play a variety of creatures that aren't good, but are a pain in the dick to deal with.
For this reason I have been contemplating very long and hard at a 4th blood baron. Once this thing sticks it is an allstar against BOTH aggro and control. When I first saw him, I assumed he was legendary because very rarely I saw lists with 4, but really, what exactly are we waiting for? What makes a fourth blood baron so taboo?
Also, with a control matchup where we have a minimal amount of threats that we HAVE to deal with, why haven't we started taking a closer look at Anger Mainboard? There's no shame in playing 4x Anger of the Gods mainboard, hell if you compare it to Slagstorm it happened ALL the time.
I think our deck can treat the meta like this, "we have to tool kits to completely hose aggro as well as provide reasonable disruption for control, once we move to game 2 we can really start grinding down on the matchup by fine-tuning the deck and removing 2-3 dead cards as well as sideboarding in 4-5 much more finely tuned cards for the matchup."
I think Dega is EASILY in the best spot, unlike U/W/X we can timely land creatures to clamp down on aggro, and for a midrange deck we certainly contain a hell of a lot of hand disruption and can pretty much dictate how control has to play, which feels like a rare gift.
I still almost want to see another Scry the bones over the underworld connection, ALMOST. How's lifebane zombie rolling for you in that board? I don't know if you saw my list I posted last night, it's a silly mess, but I still had fun (which is a rare occurrence if you've watched other people play magic, you could swear they're at their second or third job.)
Slaughter games is actually really f'king good in the Mirror, you can start taking away a lot of key cards and fast! Also, so down with 4x Anger main. Just cut the bull----, kill their threats and force them to play your game, when the meta settles move it to 3 for something else.
Right now my main concern/internal battle with this deck is "Is desecration demon really that bad for the curve?" Turn 3 Reckoner, turn 4 dese, turn 5 obze, come at me, please, please do it.
4 Boros Reckoner
3 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
2 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Sin Collector
2 Aurelia the Warleader
2 Obzedat, Ghost Council
Enchantments (4)
3 Chained to the Rocks
1 Whip of Erebos
2 Mizzium Mortars
3 Thoughtseize
2 Read the Bones
4 Dreadbore
2 Rakdos's Return
3 Warleaders Helix
4 Blood Crypt
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Godless Shrine
3 Temple of Silence
3 Temple of Triumph
1 Rakdos Guildgate
2 Mountains
1 Swamp
1 Plains
2 Mutavault
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Doom Blade
1 Glare of Heresy
2 Slaughter Games
2 Duress
2 Dark Betrayal
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Wear // Tear
A few things I'd like to say:
1 - The mainboard Whip, I'm not convinced.
2 - The deck needs to play more small ball, have you seen what happens when your opponent drops a high-priest of pennance?
3 - My creature base is obviously greedy as ****, please don't follow it, if you are find a slot for Elspeth in there, as well.
4 - We need a creature that is somewhat like precinct captain, the type of threat that is cheap enough to drop early, but something our opponent has to deal with. Maybe we don't need it, but I'd like it a lot more than just holding cards for 30 turns while our opponent does the same. Is our "good stuff" that much better than everyone else's "good stuff" that we can afford to do this up until turn 4,5, maybe 6?
Just some food for thought, any critique is welcome.
I'll post my exact list shortly but if the format is as slow as I think it is, it might be time to play some Hero's Downfall to kill some of these creatures.
Another issue I had tonight was a goddamn blood baron, we can't just sit back and say "we'll take care of it before it's played." Although, major oversite removing my mortars to my board in the matchup. Tonight was a bit weird, I have been sick a majority of the week so I just put a bunch of cards together and went for it. I only played one round and pretty much let the guy roll me over (Judge, yeah, round 1 2-0 drop! wasn't going to do that.)
No Magma Jet and 2 Aurelia seems so greedy with no main-deck anger and no main-deck whip to get a second go out of the same aurelia. Is that a meta decision? Even the muta vaults in 3 colors seems greedy to me, but I think I remember someone crunching the numbers on why it was safe, perhaps it was you kam.
Rotten I've really come to appreciate how your list has been evolving to something that "feels" right when I have been testing. My one big question though is how are you dealing with an opponent with Obzedat? Are you Slaughtering it out? What happens when they top deck it? Just race the ETB effect?
I see, I'd like to get a peak at a list tuned to dealing with mostly aggro in the form of rdw/seles/naya and esper control. My guess is that Wild GUess doesn't make it in those cases.
I don't expect to see much of the mirror, but I expect a crap ton of Esper a crap ton of aggro, a little midrange and some UWR Control as well.
Thanks for picking that up. I'm an old man.
Just because it works well with a mechanic, I would hardly call that hinting. There's a white creature that talks about enchantment retrieval, that doesn't hint that an enchantment block is coming.