Flipped through the stream, didn't appear that it showed up on camera at all. From the little that they mentioned about the list
- Runs Utopia Sprawl, Garruk Wildspeaker, Primeval Titan, and Craterhoof Behemoth
- Splashes red for Blood Moon (!) and Bonfire of the Damned
Just on the topic of Polukranos, I run him MB in my version and he's been surprisingly good in a bunch of matchups. He's great vs Affinity since most of their dudes are X/1 or X/2, but I also used him with great success against Hatebears and Pod (taking out their mana dorks)
Yeah I think polo is fine as 1-2. He passes the bolt test vs traditional Jund also. I currently have him as a 1x and he holds the ground really well while adding 2 devotion. Have you updated your list gnuhouse? I'm still following your original mono green wave archetype with mixed success.
Haven't updated too much. Just going off the top of my head
I'm thinking of dropping the Boseiju for the time being as I find that blue based control is not played too heavily in my meta. We're more Jund/Pod, which this deck just beats up on.
And, on the foil update, I managed to get a little bit closer this weekend with 4 Nykthos, a Primal Command and Genesis Wave, and 2 Urza's Legacy Plow Unders! Now I'm missing:
3 Primal Command
2 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wistful Selkie
2 Spellskite
1 Ghost Quarter
Nylea looks very tasty. Easy to get the devotion, indestructible is relevent. Beats for 6.
Polukranos looks ok but I'm not sure you can do enough with him. Worth testing.
Thrun is just a boss anyway. No complaints as to his effectiveness.
Thragtusk was an early choice for me but I quickly dropped it. It's definitely powerful but not sure it has the effect we need. I may be proven wrong though.
The others I don't think are necessarily worth the slot.
I'll see if I can pick up singleton copies of the others. Fake paypal money, ho!
Just on the topic of Polukranos, I run him MB in my version and he's been surprisingly good in a bunch of matchups. He's great vs Affinity since most of their dudes are X/1 or X/2, but I also used him with great success against Hatebears and Pod (taking out their mana dorks)
Lands - 22 is a little high, but not unacceptable. You might want an additional Stomping Ground for redundancy in the event one gets Tectonic Edged/Ghost Quartered. Inkmoth is not something I like in these builds, but if you're running only Forests then you might be able to get away with it.
Creatures - No Craterhoof?
Rest - 4 of each Primal Command and Genesis Wave may be a little much.
Personally, I'm still not sold on Sarkhan and want someone to post results with him in their deck. Further, you only have one dedicated red source of mana in your deck, so you're relying on your Utopia Sprawls to provide red mana in the event that you can't find your Stomping Ground and Sarkhan in your hand.
Sideboard - Too narrow. Diversify your threats. There's lots of suggestions here on the board so look for some inspiration
One card I haven't seen in any decklists is Satyr Wayfinder. I think it's underrated, since it helps you dig for Nykthos, the very card that this archetype is named after. Consolation prize if you don't reveal a Nykthos: you get a Forest, and/or some cards in your graveyard to return with Witness.
I think Mwonvuli Beast Tracker might be playable, if you're not using Witness. Take out Witness for Tracker, Primal Command for Acidic Slime, and Craterhoof Behemoth for Woodfall Primus (Behemoth doesn't actually have trample, btw). However Wayfinder would go down in value slightly since you no longer have Witness.
On Satyr Wayfinder - Wouldn't touch the card. For starters, there's enough competition at the two drop slot. Secondly, it provides a single devotion, so it doesn't even pay for itself with Nykthos. Thirdly, yes, you can get cards back with Eternal Witness, but I would think that recurring your Primal Command is your number one action.
On Mwonvuli Beast Tracker - In your build you can grab a grand total of one card; Primeval Titan. Adding Woodfall Primus and Acidic Slime only give you two additional targets, and the cards that you are suggesting taking out (Witness, Primal Command, and Craterhoof) are superior to the replacements in almost every single way. Heck, Primal Command puts ANY creature in your hand, while Tracker puts one of a subset of creatures on the top of your library.
Just chiming in on the Burning-Tree Emissary (BTE) discussion, since I've played a lot with the guy (girl?).
Let's talk about the basics, and that's the interaction between BTE and Nykthos. Much like Strangleroot Geist and Wistful Selkie, BTE pays for itself in that you can play it, then gain it's casting cost when you activate Nykthos. However, unlike Wistful Selkie and Strangleroot Geist, you get the free Nykthos activation out of casting BTE, making him more than just a free creature.
In the discussion I've seen, the two devotion is getting dismissed when it shouldn't. Remember the game plan is to get out a Genesis Wave, Primal Command, and/or Chord of Calling quickly to get ahead on the board. Replace BTE with Tarmogoyf or Elvish Visionary and you fall one devotion short. Replace it with Courser or another three drop, and you're a turn slow.
Granted, BTE doesn't allow you to cast cards like Strangleroot Geist or Wistful Selkie, but you can cast Eternal Witness, Garruk, Primal Command, Genesis Wave, Primeval Titan, and Craterhoof Behemoth on the same turn as you cast BTE. The interaction with Craterhoof is important, since casting BTE then Craterhoof adds +1/+1 to all your attacking creatures. Sometimes this is the difference between winning and losing (I've had this happen before on more than one occasion).
I also think people look at the whole BTE/Nykthos interaction and look at the big plays, but there are smaller plays that it enables. I'll give you one that came up for me this week. I have an opening hand of Forest, Nykthos, Arbor Elf, Wistful Selkie, BTE, Primal Command, and something else. Typically a Forest/Nykthos hand is bad, but this is actually very playable with the right opponent.
T1 - Forest, Arbor Elf
T2 - Nykthos, tap Forest, tap Arbor Elf, tap Forest, play BTE, activate Nykthos, cast Wistful Selkie
T3 - Begin Primal Command loop
T3 can also be Garruk into something big, or Primeval Titan. It can make mediocre draws into good draws in the right scenario, which other suggested cards can't do.
I don't think that BTE is the right card for every deck, but in Wave versions he's as key a card as you can get.
While chord puts the creature directly onto the battlefield,you potentially pay more to do so. My current thinking is paying 1 more is acceptable because then it becomes an instant speed green sun's zenith, anything more and it becomes less efficient. Pact while risky if your subsequent creature is countered, because you loose 4 mana next turn, will always be efficiently costed (<GSZ).
I'm interested to hear what more experienced pilots think is the better tutor for each version (mono green wave and g/w midrange version). I'm still leaning towards pact.
Oh what I wouldn't do for Green Sun's Zenith. Ah the halcyon days of casting Green Sun's Zenith for Primeval Titan in Standard *sniff*
Sorry, got a little misty eyed there
So I used to run Pact as a one of in the deck and liked it. However, it was situation dependent and sometimes it was just a dead card in my hand. I liked the fact that I could use it in my upkeep or draw step, grab whatever I needed to win that turn (Craterhoof most of the time, but sometimes Primeval Titan, and even Burning-Tree Emissary!), and then win. Obviously, it has the "shortcoming" of only being able to fetch green creatures, so you can't go and grab things like Spellskite, and it doesn't put the creature directly into play. However, it's pretty acceptable, albeit fairly situational.
Honestly, I'd never run Chord in my Wave version, so the choice between the two is pretty simple. If I'm playing a tutor card, I'm tutoring for something that will help me win the game on the spot, not for a toolbox card (yes, I know that I'm not tutoring for a win con with Primal Command, but tutoring for EWit is a different form of win con in a sense). That being said, Chord is far inferior to Pact.
If I'm going to Pact, I'm likely going to Pact on my upkeep or draw step, avoiding the upkeep cost of Pact. As such, whatever I tutor for is going to cost me whatever its CMC is to put it into play. Given that I tutor for Craterhoof 90% of the time, I'll win on the spot when he's cast. I'll tutor for Titan (with Garruk on the table, I can utilize Wolf Run) or BTE (needed for Devotion and Nykthos activation), and even SRG (devotion + haste makes it play nice with Behemoth), but 90% of the time I would Pact for Craterhoof.
Chord obviously has the advantage of putting the creature directly into play. So, to tutor for something like Titan, or even Wistful Selkie, at the end of your opponent's turn is fairly powerful. You can also pull off combat tricks, which is nice and sneaky. But I see a few disadvantages of it in the Wave version. Assume that you use Chord in the same manner as you do Pact; to win on the spot. If I hard cast Chord, I'm spending three more mana, so the cost is a little more restrictive. Maybe not an issue, given the ton of mana we can potentially generate, but a consideration. If you use Convoke, you're tapping creatures that you could potentially attack with if you tutor for a Craterhoof. You also can't tutor for Craterhoof at EOT, since you lose the ETB triggers.
Yes, I know, I can search for more than Craterhoof, however in the GWave version, I want to win quickly in G1, and then play to the opponent's deck in G2 and G3. If I'm playing Chord or Pact, Pact allows me to achieve my goal much quicker and efficiently in G1 than Chord.
So I added Polukranos, a land, an Eternal Witness. Out came a second Craterhoof, and two Courser of Kruphix. Polukranos was added to deal with Affinity, Pod and other random stuff. Witness is just good value. The land (Forest or Stomping Ground...take your pick) just makes the mana a little more consistent.
The second Craterhoof was overkill. The two Coursers were underwhelming during my play in previous weeks, so they got dropped.
Just as a quick note, I don't run any fetchlands. This is more a cost consideration than anything; I sold my collection around this time last year and I refuse to reinvest in fetches at their inflated prices. If I WAS to run fetches, I'd drop a Stomping Ground and three Forests, and replace them with 4 Misty Rainforest/Verdant Catacomb. If I was to run this outside of my LGS, I'd definitely borrow fetches, and if you have them I would advocate that you run them in your build. Fetches make an early Eternal Witness much more valuable; I've often cast a turn 3 Witness for devotion and felt bad when there was nothing to bring back.
Anyways, on to the report
26 players in total
Round 1 - Grixis Delver
Pretty standard, play Delver on turn 1, pray for a flip, then beat down and protect. My opponent played very deliberately, so this was a very long round
G1 - Can't remember too much here, but he Remanded a Garruk, which got recast, I Genesis Waved for 7 into 6 lands and a Strangleroot Geist, and won with Garruk's Ultimate
In - 1 Primal Command, 2 Plow Under, 1 Boseiju, 1 Scavenging Ooze
Out - 3 Genesis Wave, 1 Polukranos, 1 Stomping Ground
G2 - I got him into a Primal Command loop, each time hitting his Creeping Tar Pit and grabbing an Eternal Witness. What neither of us realized is that he could have animated his Tar Pit to fizzle the Primal Command until I did I a third time. Anyways, by that time he was too far behind, I had cast a Primeval Titan, and that was game
1-0 (2-0)
Round 2 - The Rock
G1 - The nice thing about Modern is that a number of decks do quite a bit of damage to themselves with Shocklands and fetches. Despite losing some devotion enablers, I managed to ramp into Craterhoof and run over him with him at 10 life
In - 1 Primal Command, 2 Plow Under, 1 Scavenging Ooze, 1 Dismember
G2 - I can't get any velocity, he drops 2 Goyfs, and I scoop
G3 - I get him into a Primal Loop quickly, drop Primetime, and that's all she wrote. He did make a play error in not Tectonic Edging my Nykthos and allowing me to untap it with Garruk. That allowed me to Command AND Witness in the same turn.
2-0 (3-1)
Round 3 - Kiki-Pod
I played this guy a few weeks back and ran over him. Overall, Pod is a good matchup
G1 - He was able to get out a quick Pod and go up the chain before I could get anything moving
In - 2 Damping Matrix, 1 Dismember
Out - 2 Strangleroot Geist, 1 Burning-Tree Emissary
G2 - Turn 3 Damping Matrix just hosed him
G3 - I had to mull to 5, and I tried to get a Primal Loop going. He had Glen Endra on the table with Pod, meaning next turn he would Pod into Zealous Conscripts, untap Pod, and Pod into Kiki-Jiki for the win. I went for Primal Command on a land + search for creature, he sacrificed Glen Endra to counter, and I thought I was good. He then proceeds to cast Resto on his turn, blinks Glen Endra, and Pods off
2-1 (4-3)
Round 4 - RB Burn
I got paired up since there were 3 3-0s. There was no good way for us to split so we played it out.
G1 - He has no idea what he's facing. He nukes my dorks and Geists until I hit 5 mana and start to loop, but for 7 life and a Witness. He scoops
In - 1 Primal Command, 1 Scavenging Ooze
Out - 2 Burning-Tree Emissary
G2 - Still not knowing what he is playing against, he mulls to five. He uses Molten Rain on my Nykthoses, but I rip one and Witness another back to my hand. I Primal Command his land, with him stuck on one land for several turns, and he just scoops.
3-1 (6-3), good enough for second place
Some notes:
I only cast one Genesis Wave tonight, and it whiffed big time. If I had it in hand, the Waves weren't optimal either in size or play. For example, I could have Waved for 5 vs Burn, but chose to gain life and find a Witness. All in all, I think I saw Genesis Wave a grand total of 4 times the whole night
Ditto goes for a lot of my sideboard cards. Boseiju made an appearance, and I drew Primal Commands, but never a Plow Under
For the record, my local metagame is a lot of BGx decks, blue based decks, and Pod. Affinity usually shows up a couple of times, there was a Zoo deck there last night, and then odds and ends
I would love to hear more about how others use primal command. Against thoughtseize decks or control decks I use it all the time to get eternal witness and other commands/ waves back into my deck. I have yet had to shuffle their deck away, and usually use it to time walk them and grab a guy from my deck.
I think the primary use for Primal Command is fetch a creature + bounce a non-creature permanent. Personally, I've fetched pretty much every creature in my deck except for Arbor Elf, with Eternal Witness as my primary target.
I have, however, used the other two modes; versus Burn and Affinity I've used the life gain mode, and I've used the shuffle mode versus control, putting a land on top and shuffling it away. I typically do this if I don't have to search for an Eternal Witness or there are too many targets to bounce.
worldspine wurm is certainly a bit slower than behemoth, but craterhoof dies to a single removal spell and then next turn gets gobbled up by ooze. Worldspine takes 4 single removal spells to get rid of it, and if they are tapped out gets shuffled back into your library. It is certainly some kitchen table tech (HA!), but I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand based on its casting cost or speed, as it makes up for it in other areas. Are they good enough? Don't know, but I am certainly going to keep testing it.
Thing with Craterhoof is it has such a massive impact to the board the moment it hits the battlefield. Sure, it can eat a Dismember/Path/whatever when it ETB, but by that time it's too late. Wurm, on the other hand, doesn't have an impact on the board when it ETB, and a Path lets your opponent get around the dies trigger.
4 BTE - worked well, managed to turn 3 kill with garruk 2 times, pressure UWR so they had to tap out and then primal locked them. Didnt have turn 2 Titan/Command draw yet.
OMG! Burning-Tree Emissary?! No wonder it's cold up here...hell has frozen over!
Folks, in case you haven't heard, we're on the watch list for demotion from the Established forum. The deck just isn't putting up the results required in order fort he deck to stay here and if it stays that way by the next B&R announcement, we go back to the Deck Ideas forum.
So this is the call to arms. If you play MTGO, play the hell out of the deck. Play in as many Dailies and Premier events as your wallet and time allows. If you have PTQs to play in, or if you can go to an SCG event on a Sunday, rock the deck. Most importantly, post your results here! Tell us your deck list, what your matchups were, how you side boarded, funny stories, whatever! Just post your results.
For those of us who don't grind the big events but still play the deck, help each their out. Comment on card choices, side boarding options, match up advice, whatever. Just do what you can to keep this thread in this forum. I was part of this thread before it got promoted and I want to keep it here, if not take it up to the Proven forum. We move up, not down!
It did take a lot of games in the Titan deck it was in a couple years ago; so there is precedence. I'm not saying it can't work. I was just asking the questions about the mana base, etc. Of course my mana base is far more restrictive (in terms of utility lands) than some others due to Arbor Elf, Utopia Sprawl, and Nissa Worldwaker all requiring Forests; so I'm a little more worried about this than some of the other builds. I'd be interested to hear more about it.
I believe I talk about Inkmoth in the primer but if not, here goes.
Typical manabase runs like this
4 Nykthos
4-6 Fetches
1-2 Utility Lands (Kessig Wolf Run, Cavern of Souls, Boseiju)
2-4 Stomping Ground
6-8 Forest
You run 20-21 lands, and the number of Forests that you run is key; Arbor Elf only untaps Forests and Utopia Sprawl only enchants Forests. You really don't want to enchant a Stomping Ground because of cards like Tectonic Edge, so Forests are absolutely key. So each non-Forest land you add reduces the number of Forests you run, and therefore inhibiting your ability to function optimally.
I played the hell out of Valakut and Wolf Run Ramp in ZEN-SOM and SOM-INN Standard, respectively. Wolf Run Ramp ran a lot more lands and was less dependent on specific lands, like Forests and Nykthos. It was pretty much a no brainer; play Titan, fetch KWR and Inkmoth, win next turn. What you played leading up to Titan was fairly irrelevant, whereas it's really important in this deck.
So I played last night at our local Thursday Modern night. I think we were pushing 30 which, considering at least 15 regulars were on their way to GP "Boston", was pretty good.
So I decided to take a departure from the build I've been running for a while and decided to play Michael Jacob's version from his article. Out went the Geists, a Craterhoof, a Primal Command, and a Wistful Selkie, in went 2 Abundant Growths, 2 Birds of Paradise, a Joraga Treespeaker, an Eternal Witness, and an extra land.
My notes aren't great so I'm going off of memory here.
R1 - Mono Green Devotion
Yep, I played the mirror match.
G1 - He didn't get much going with a bunch of Elvish Visionaries coming into play. I built up my board with Arbor Elves, Wistful Selkies, and a Garruk. I won with Garruk's utimate and a Kessig Wolf Run.
G2 - I think I mulled to 5, couldn't get going fast enough and he won with Garruk, Elves, and Elvish Archdruid (I think). I did get to Genesis Wave for six, but had an absolutely horrible Wave, hitting Wave and Command, 2 lands, a Sprawl, and something else.
G3 - I managed to keep him off of mana with Primal Command and Ghost Quarter, looping them with Witness. I then Titan'd for Kessig and Nykthos and that was all she wrote
The list that this guy was running was very similar to CurdBros' list, with Coiling Oracle, Archruid, and Elves, running Chord of Calling AND Genesis Wave.
R2 - UWR
G1 was a close one and it came down, again, to a poor Genesis Wave. G2 wasn't even close
R3 - UWR (again)
This time it was the Delver version. G1 he flipped 2 Delvers quickly while I stumbled on mana. G2, I was able to build board presence and won with Garruk's ultimate. G3, he flipped an early Delver that I couldn't remove in time.
R4 - GB Rock
While UWR is a bad matchup, this is supposed to be a good one; typically I beat up on Pod and Jund-esque decks. He also lost to my R1 opponent in his previous round, so I was feeling good.
G1 was closer than it should have been, given I hit no Waves or Commands. G2, I kept a really sketchy hand that had a HUGE upside. I had Forest, Ghost Quarter, Treespeaker, Titan, Titan, Garruk, something. If the Treespeaker lives, it's a great hand. Otherwise, it blows. So, turn 2, I level the Treespeaker, he Dismembers it, and that was pretty much all she wrote.
I now remember why I don't like Treespeaker, as he acts as a Time Walk for my opponent most of the time. I think I was able to use him once, but the rest of the time he really blew.
Abundant Growth was okay, but didn't impress. I think I would have preferred the extra Selkie, purely for the devotion, and the extra Primal Command.
Birds didn't come up enough for me to comment on.
I did feel the loss of the Geists, especially against UWR. It's resiliency in the face of bolts, Electrolyze, etc., is really useful. It's also a great card against Rock decks.
Anyways, I haven't decided what to do next week. I'm leaning towards the build I'm more comfortable with, but I might be adventurous and try something different.
- Runs Utopia Sprawl, Garruk Wildspeaker, Primeval Titan, and Craterhoof Behemoth
- Splashes red for Blood Moon (!) and Bonfire of the Damned
Haven't updated too much. Just going off the top of my head
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Strangleroot Geist
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Wistful Selkie
4 Eternal Witness
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Polukranos, World Eater
3 Primal Command
3 Primeval Titan
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
3 Genesis Wave
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
3 Stomping Ground
1 Kessig Wolf Run
13 Forest
2 Spellskite
2 Plow Under
1 Primal Command
1 Dismember
2 Damping Matrix
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 ????? (Can't remember at the moment)
I'm thinking of dropping the Boseiju for the time being as I find that blue based control is not played too heavily in my meta. We're more Jund/Pod, which this deck just beats up on.
And, on the foil update, I managed to get a little bit closer this weekend with 4 Nykthos, a Primal Command and Genesis Wave, and 2 Urza's Legacy Plow Unders! Now I'm missing:
3 Primal Command
2 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wistful Selkie
2 Spellskite
1 Ghost Quarter
Just on the topic of Polukranos, I run him MB in my version and he's been surprisingly good in a bunch of matchups. He's great vs Affinity since most of their dudes are X/1 or X/2, but I also used him with great success against Hatebears and Pod (taking out their mana dorks)
How did you do? Can we get a list of your matchups?
Sorry folks, been a crazy week so I'm catching up
List looks fairly stock.
Lands - 22 is a little high, but not unacceptable. You might want an additional Stomping Ground for redundancy in the event one gets Tectonic Edged/Ghost Quartered. Inkmoth is not something I like in these builds, but if you're running only Forests then you might be able to get away with it.
Creatures - No Craterhoof?
Rest - 4 of each Primal Command and Genesis Wave may be a little much.
Personally, I'm still not sold on Sarkhan and want someone to post results with him in their deck. Further, you only have one dedicated red source of mana in your deck, so you're relying on your Utopia Sprawls to provide red mana in the event that you can't find your Stomping Ground and Sarkhan in your hand.
Sideboard - Too narrow. Diversify your threats. There's lots of suggestions here on the board so look for some inspiration
On Satyr Wayfinder - Wouldn't touch the card. For starters, there's enough competition at the two drop slot. Secondly, it provides a single devotion, so it doesn't even pay for itself with Nykthos. Thirdly, yes, you can get cards back with Eternal Witness, but I would think that recurring your Primal Command is your number one action.
On Mwonvuli Beast Tracker - In your build you can grab a grand total of one card; Primeval Titan. Adding Woodfall Primus and Acidic Slime only give you two additional targets, and the cards that you are suggesting taking out (Witness, Primal Command, and Craterhoof) are superior to the replacements in almost every single way. Heck, Primal Command puts ANY creature in your hand, while Tracker puts one of a subset of creatures on the top of your library.
Let's talk about the basics, and that's the interaction between BTE and Nykthos. Much like Strangleroot Geist and Wistful Selkie, BTE pays for itself in that you can play it, then gain it's casting cost when you activate Nykthos. However, unlike Wistful Selkie and Strangleroot Geist, you get the free Nykthos activation out of casting BTE, making him more than just a free creature.
In the discussion I've seen, the two devotion is getting dismissed when it shouldn't. Remember the game plan is to get out a Genesis Wave, Primal Command, and/or Chord of Calling quickly to get ahead on the board. Replace BTE with Tarmogoyf or Elvish Visionary and you fall one devotion short. Replace it with Courser or another three drop, and you're a turn slow.
Granted, BTE doesn't allow you to cast cards like Strangleroot Geist or Wistful Selkie, but you can cast Eternal Witness, Garruk, Primal Command, Genesis Wave, Primeval Titan, and Craterhoof Behemoth on the same turn as you cast BTE. The interaction with Craterhoof is important, since casting BTE then Craterhoof adds +1/+1 to all your attacking creatures. Sometimes this is the difference between winning and losing (I've had this happen before on more than one occasion).
I also think people look at the whole BTE/Nykthos interaction and look at the big plays, but there are smaller plays that it enables. I'll give you one that came up for me this week. I have an opening hand of Forest, Nykthos, Arbor Elf, Wistful Selkie, BTE, Primal Command, and something else. Typically a Forest/Nykthos hand is bad, but this is actually very playable with the right opponent.
T1 - Forest, Arbor Elf
T2 - Nykthos, tap Forest, tap Arbor Elf, tap Forest, play BTE, activate Nykthos, cast Wistful Selkie
T3 - Begin Primal Command loop
T3 can also be Garruk into something big, or Primeval Titan. It can make mediocre draws into good draws in the right scenario, which other suggested cards can't do.
I don't think that BTE is the right card for every deck, but in Wave versions he's as key a card as you can get.
Oh what I wouldn't do for Green Sun's Zenith. Ah the halcyon days of casting Green Sun's Zenith for Primeval Titan in Standard *sniff*
Sorry, got a little misty eyed there
So I used to run Pact as a one of in the deck and liked it. However, it was situation dependent and sometimes it was just a dead card in my hand. I liked the fact that I could use it in my upkeep or draw step, grab whatever I needed to win that turn (Craterhoof most of the time, but sometimes Primeval Titan, and even Burning-Tree Emissary!), and then win. Obviously, it has the "shortcoming" of only being able to fetch green creatures, so you can't go and grab things like Spellskite, and it doesn't put the creature directly into play. However, it's pretty acceptable, albeit fairly situational.
Honestly, I'd never run Chord in my Wave version, so the choice between the two is pretty simple. If I'm playing a tutor card, I'm tutoring for something that will help me win the game on the spot, not for a toolbox card (yes, I know that I'm not tutoring for a win con with Primal Command, but tutoring for EWit is a different form of win con in a sense). That being said, Chord is far inferior to Pact.
If I'm going to Pact, I'm likely going to Pact on my upkeep or draw step, avoiding the upkeep cost of Pact. As such, whatever I tutor for is going to cost me whatever its CMC is to put it into play. Given that I tutor for Craterhoof 90% of the time, I'll win on the spot when he's cast. I'll tutor for Titan (with Garruk on the table, I can utilize Wolf Run) or BTE (needed for Devotion and Nykthos activation), and even SRG (devotion + haste makes it play nice with Behemoth), but 90% of the time I would Pact for Craterhoof.
Chord obviously has the advantage of putting the creature directly into play. So, to tutor for something like Titan, or even Wistful Selkie, at the end of your opponent's turn is fairly powerful. You can also pull off combat tricks, which is nice and sneaky. But I see a few disadvantages of it in the Wave version. Assume that you use Chord in the same manner as you do Pact; to win on the spot. If I hard cast Chord, I'm spending three more mana, so the cost is a little more restrictive. Maybe not an issue, given the ton of mana we can potentially generate, but a consideration. If you use Convoke, you're tapping creatures that you could potentially attack with if you tutor for a Craterhoof. You also can't tutor for Craterhoof at EOT, since you lose the ETB triggers.
Yes, I know, I can search for more than Craterhoof, however in the GWave version, I want to win quickly in G1, and then play to the opponent's deck in G2 and G3. If I'm playing Chord or Pact, Pact allows me to achieve my goal much quicker and efficiently in G1 than Chord.
Last week I ran Michael Jacob's list from a few months back, but tonight I ran good ol' faithful with a few tweaks.
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Strangleroot Geist
4 Eternal Witness
4 Wistful Selkie
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Polukranos, World Eater
3 Primeval Titan
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
3 Genesis Wave
3 Primal Command
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
3 Stomping Ground
1 Kessig Wolf Run
13 Forest
2 Plow Under
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Creeping Corrosion
1 Nature's Claim
2 Damping Matrix
1 Dismember
2 Spellskite
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Primal Command
So I added Polukranos, a land, an Eternal Witness. Out came a second Craterhoof, and two Courser of Kruphix. Polukranos was added to deal with Affinity, Pod and other random stuff. Witness is just good value. The land (Forest or Stomping Ground...take your pick) just makes the mana a little more consistent.
The second Craterhoof was overkill. The two Coursers were underwhelming during my play in previous weeks, so they got dropped.
Just as a quick note, I don't run any fetchlands. This is more a cost consideration than anything; I sold my collection around this time last year and I refuse to reinvest in fetches at their inflated prices. If I WAS to run fetches, I'd drop a Stomping Ground and three Forests, and replace them with 4 Misty Rainforest/Verdant Catacomb. If I was to run this outside of my LGS, I'd definitely borrow fetches, and if you have them I would advocate that you run them in your build. Fetches make an early Eternal Witness much more valuable; I've often cast a turn 3 Witness for devotion and felt bad when there was nothing to bring back.
Anyways, on to the report
26 players in total
Round 1 - Grixis Delver
Pretty standard, play Delver on turn 1, pray for a flip, then beat down and protect. My opponent played very deliberately, so this was a very long round
G1 - Can't remember too much here, but he Remanded a Garruk, which got recast, I Genesis Waved for 7 into 6 lands and a Strangleroot Geist, and won with Garruk's Ultimate
In - 1 Primal Command, 2 Plow Under, 1 Boseiju, 1 Scavenging Ooze
Out - 3 Genesis Wave, 1 Polukranos, 1 Stomping Ground
G2 - I got him into a Primal Command loop, each time hitting his Creeping Tar Pit and grabbing an Eternal Witness. What neither of us realized is that he could have animated his Tar Pit to fizzle the Primal Command until I did I a third time. Anyways, by that time he was too far behind, I had cast a Primeval Titan, and that was game
1-0 (2-0)
Round 2 - The Rock
G1 - The nice thing about Modern is that a number of decks do quite a bit of damage to themselves with Shocklands and fetches. Despite losing some devotion enablers, I managed to ramp into Craterhoof and run over him with him at 10 life
In - 1 Primal Command, 2 Plow Under, 1 Scavenging Ooze, 1 Dismember
G2 - I can't get any velocity, he drops 2 Goyfs, and I scoop
G3 - I get him into a Primal Loop quickly, drop Primetime, and that's all she wrote. He did make a play error in not Tectonic Edging my Nykthos and allowing me to untap it with Garruk. That allowed me to Command AND Witness in the same turn.
2-0 (3-1)
Round 3 - Kiki-Pod
I played this guy a few weeks back and ran over him. Overall, Pod is a good matchup
G1 - He was able to get out a quick Pod and go up the chain before I could get anything moving
In - 2 Damping Matrix, 1 Dismember
Out - 2 Strangleroot Geist, 1 Burning-Tree Emissary
G2 - Turn 3 Damping Matrix just hosed him
G3 - I had to mull to 5, and I tried to get a Primal Loop going. He had Glen Endra on the table with Pod, meaning next turn he would Pod into Zealous Conscripts, untap Pod, and Pod into Kiki-Jiki for the win. I went for Primal Command on a land + search for creature, he sacrificed Glen Endra to counter, and I thought I was good. He then proceeds to cast Resto on his turn, blinks Glen Endra, and Pods off
2-1 (4-3)
Round 4 - RB Burn
I got paired up since there were 3 3-0s. There was no good way for us to split so we played it out.
G1 - He has no idea what he's facing. He nukes my dorks and Geists until I hit 5 mana and start to loop, but for 7 life and a Witness. He scoops
In - 1 Primal Command, 1 Scavenging Ooze
Out - 2 Burning-Tree Emissary
G2 - Still not knowing what he is playing against, he mulls to five. He uses Molten Rain on my Nykthoses, but I rip one and Witness another back to my hand. I Primal Command his land, with him stuck on one land for several turns, and he just scoops.
3-1 (6-3), good enough for second place
Some notes:
I only cast one Genesis Wave tonight, and it whiffed big time. If I had it in hand, the Waves weren't optimal either in size or play. For example, I could have Waved for 5 vs Burn, but chose to gain life and find a Witness. All in all, I think I saw Genesis Wave a grand total of 4 times the whole night
Ditto goes for a lot of my sideboard cards. Boseiju made an appearance, and I drew Primal Commands, but never a Plow Under
For the record, my local metagame is a lot of BGx decks, blue based decks, and Pod. Affinity usually shows up a couple of times, there was a Zoo deck there last night, and then odds and ends
I think the primary use for Primal Command is fetch a creature + bounce a non-creature permanent. Personally, I've fetched pretty much every creature in my deck except for Arbor Elf, with Eternal Witness as my primary target.
I have, however, used the other two modes; versus Burn and Affinity I've used the life gain mode, and I've used the shuffle mode versus control, putting a land on top and shuffling it away. I typically do this if I don't have to search for an Eternal Witness or there are too many targets to bounce.
Thing with Craterhoof is it has such a massive impact to the board the moment it hits the battlefield. Sure, it can eat a Dismember/Path/whatever when it ETB, but by that time it's too late. Wurm, on the other hand, doesn't have an impact on the board when it ETB, and a Path lets your opponent get around the dies trigger.
OMG! Burning-Tree Emissary?! No wonder it's cold up here...hell has frozen over!
*just teasin*
So this is the call to arms. If you play MTGO, play the hell out of the deck. Play in as many Dailies and Premier events as your wallet and time allows. If you have PTQs to play in, or if you can go to an SCG event on a Sunday, rock the deck. Most importantly, post your results here! Tell us your deck list, what your matchups were, how you side boarded, funny stories, whatever! Just post your results.
For those of us who don't grind the big events but still play the deck, help each their out. Comment on card choices, side boarding options, match up advice, whatever. Just do what you can to keep this thread in this forum. I was part of this thread before it got promoted and I want to keep it here, if not take it up to the Proven forum. We move up, not down!
I believe I talk about Inkmoth in the primer but if not, here goes.
Typical manabase runs like this
4 Nykthos
4-6 Fetches
1-2 Utility Lands (Kessig Wolf Run, Cavern of Souls, Boseiju)
2-4 Stomping Ground
6-8 Forest
You run 20-21 lands, and the number of Forests that you run is key; Arbor Elf only untaps Forests and Utopia Sprawl only enchants Forests. You really don't want to enchant a Stomping Ground because of cards like Tectonic Edge, so Forests are absolutely key. So each non-Forest land you add reduces the number of Forests you run, and therefore inhibiting your ability to function optimally.
I played the hell out of Valakut and Wolf Run Ramp in ZEN-SOM and SOM-INN Standard, respectively. Wolf Run Ramp ran a lot more lands and was less dependent on specific lands, like Forests and Nykthos. It was pretty much a no brainer; play Titan, fetch KWR and Inkmoth, win next turn. What you played leading up to Titan was fairly irrelevant, whereas it's really important in this deck.
So I decided to take a departure from the build I've been running for a while and decided to play Michael Jacob's version from his article. Out went the Geists, a Craterhoof, a Primal Command, and a Wistful Selkie, in went 2 Abundant Growths, 2 Birds of Paradise, a Joraga Treespeaker, an Eternal Witness, and an extra land.
My notes aren't great so I'm going off of memory here.
R1 - Mono Green Devotion
Yep, I played the mirror match.
G1 - He didn't get much going with a bunch of Elvish Visionaries coming into play. I built up my board with Arbor Elves, Wistful Selkies, and a Garruk. I won with Garruk's utimate and a Kessig Wolf Run.
G2 - I think I mulled to 5, couldn't get going fast enough and he won with Garruk, Elves, and Elvish Archdruid (I think). I did get to Genesis Wave for six, but had an absolutely horrible Wave, hitting Wave and Command, 2 lands, a Sprawl, and something else.
G3 - I managed to keep him off of mana with Primal Command and Ghost Quarter, looping them with Witness. I then Titan'd for Kessig and Nykthos and that was all she wrote
The list that this guy was running was very similar to CurdBros' list, with Coiling Oracle, Archruid, and Elves, running Chord of Calling AND Genesis Wave.
R2 - UWR
G1 was a close one and it came down, again, to a poor Genesis Wave. G2 wasn't even close
R3 - UWR (again)
This time it was the Delver version. G1 he flipped 2 Delvers quickly while I stumbled on mana. G2, I was able to build board presence and won with Garruk's ultimate. G3, he flipped an early Delver that I couldn't remove in time.
R4 - GB Rock
While UWR is a bad matchup, this is supposed to be a good one; typically I beat up on Pod and Jund-esque decks. He also lost to my R1 opponent in his previous round, so I was feeling good.
G1 was closer than it should have been, given I hit no Waves or Commands. G2, I kept a really sketchy hand that had a HUGE upside. I had Forest, Ghost Quarter, Treespeaker, Titan, Titan, Garruk, something. If the Treespeaker lives, it's a great hand. Otherwise, it blows. So, turn 2, I level the Treespeaker, he Dismembers it, and that was pretty much all she wrote.
I now remember why I don't like Treespeaker, as he acts as a Time Walk for my opponent most of the time. I think I was able to use him once, but the rest of the time he really blew.
Abundant Growth was okay, but didn't impress. I think I would have preferred the extra Selkie, purely for the devotion, and the extra Primal Command.
Birds didn't come up enough for me to comment on.
I did feel the loss of the Geists, especially against UWR. It's resiliency in the face of bolts, Electrolyze, etc., is really useful. It's also a great card against Rock decks.
Anyways, I haven't decided what to do next week. I'm leaning towards the build I'm more comfortable with, but I might be adventurous and try something different.