So I've been putzing around gatherer lately. Why don't people run Vendetta or Ashes to Ashes? The downside can be brutal, but if you're pushing black aggro they seem pretty solid. Am I crazy for considering them?
If the Genesis cut showed you anything, it's that green is a hell of a lot tighter than it looks.
Don't I know it. I think green might actually be the tightest section in the cube. I would never have guessed that when I first started constructing it.
And with that, here are the final (for now) changes, reflected in the cube contents list. Thanks to everybody.
I don't think it's worth running if you don't include Woodfall Primus and Hornet Queen, both of which are absent in your cube. I also think you need to support reanimator as an archetype, just so you can reliably get those creatures into play in case no one drafts Natural Order.
He's a good topdeck, but my suspicion is that it's certainly not something you want to drop on curve (i.e. on turns 1-3), when you should be casting better permanents/spells rather than durdling away on firebreathing.
Neither am I, frankly, but like you and everyone else have said, if you want green aggro to be viable, you need to really push it. Here are the 4+ CC creatures that I run:
I'm more excited to ramp into each one of those creatures than I am to ramp into Genesis. I understand that Genesis is objectively a better card than Pouncing Jaguar, but it's the most cuttable of the others, except maaaaaaaybe Phantom Centaur.
Obviously your cube list is what I modeled mine on, and the more I think about it the more I think you're on target w/r/t the morphs. I think I'm going to do this:
Meadowgrain and Edict are easy cuts. Bribery isn't, but it's the weakest of blue's creature-theft spells, and I don't think the color needs to devote 10% of its space to that effect. Because of its echo costs, Vandals doesn't live to see as many turns as a more versatile artifact-removal creature like Hearth Kami. Vigilante can attack enchantments, Shaman can't, and Shaman is getting the axe because Uktabi Orangutan always makes me laugh when I look at it. Because I run Seal of Primordium, I'm less worried about losing an artifact removal card in the color than I otherwise would be (I'm running only 1 fewer than you were in your 360 list).
I like River Boa more than the Skinshifter. I don't have to put mana into the Boa to have it be a reasonable attacker, and it has evasion in half the matchups. Regeneration is pretty sweet too. I'd keep Genesis and the Boa, and go without the Slasher or Skinshifter.
In a vaccum I like Boa more than Skinshifter, too (especially because I loved to play 10-land stompy way back when). But I think that Skinshifter will prove to be slightly better in green aggro, as well as being an excellent blocker for a minimal investment in midrange/control. In any event I'm going to keep a very close eye on this.
If you have to bring in Edric at 360, the SSS is an okay cut. But I personally prefer it, especially if you're running Natural Order.
I think if I need to add another target for Natural Order, I'll end up squeezing in Pelakka Wurm, since at least you can hard cast it in a Rock or GW deck.
Genesis is the creature I'm least excited to ramp into; it's versatile and crushes in the control/midrange mirror, but I think it's the narrowest of the green 5-drops I run. I don't think I'll miss it.
River Boa hasn't overwhelmed or underwhelmed in its stay, it's just...whelmed. Like Skinshifter, it can go in green aggro or play a defensive position. But I want to try out Skinshifter and see if its 4 power plays better in aggro decks.
Something had to make room for Edric, and SSS is the least interesting of the 4 Simic cards. If I find that Natural Order needs another target to make it run smoother, I probably won't add this back in, but instead find a way for Pelakka Wurm.
Lodestone Golem was the worst of the aggro 4-drops. Scroll Rack isn't as good when you're not running the full miracle set. Besides, multicolor control decks need more checks and balances. Consider Ankh the check and Vise the balance.
Slayers' Stronghold made me, like wtwlf, realize how great Charge is. I think it might even be a 360 staple. I don't need 3 Red XCC spells, and Earthquake is the most fungible. Goblin Patrol is boring, but gives red another 2-power 1-drop.
These are changes I'm going to test for a few weeks. I want another free counterspell, Cryptic Command does double duty, and two extra value creatures are great for any blue deck.
Thanks, cube forum, for all your insight. You're the best!
How does red profit from having something that it can discard cards to?
When you put it that way, I guess it's pretty myopic to assume that every non-white color needs a good discard outlet. I think you just saved me 10 bucks. Thanks
Chandra Nalaar can kill up to 3 small creatures or one dragon / angel which are cards that red has a very hard time getting off the table and still survives to make your opponent spend resources to kill her or stays in play as a pinger.
Once your opponent gets a 4+ mana creature in the yard, Exhume becomes a lot less valuable. Sure your guy might be bigger, but your opponent was able to impact the board with other creatures earlier instead of trying to find all the pieces and get the fatty into your graveyard.
Yeah, Nezumi and Chandra both remain, and Exhume is on the outside looking in.
With Hornet Queen in your green section, SSS seems like a replaceable card, since it is great against spot removal, can kill anything in combat, can't be blocked effectively and also gives you 6 power of flying creatures for 7.
I think I'm one of the few people on this board that consider Natural Order cubable, or at least powerful and fun enough to warrant inclusion as long as you have at least 3 principal targets for it. If I removed SSS, that leaves only two: Hornet Queen and Woodfall Primus. We all feel the effect is powerful enough to justify removing two of the fringe-y green cards to include it and Hornet Queen, but I'm not sure it's justifiable without SSS. Do you think it would be? Keep in mind that removing Natural Order, for now, is not an option for our playgroup.
In any event, if I don't find a way to squeeze in Edric, I may just take out Green aggro altogether. I'm only running 6 cards in the archetype:
I was hoping the inclusion of Edric, along with Pouncing Jaguar and Skinshifter, would help prop up the archetype, which struggles even as a secondary option in any aggro deck. Of course, Edric would also require an uptick in Blue tempo cards (which I described in my proposed update), and THAT would justify my keeping Geist of Saint Traft in the cube. Geist is a card that almost never sees play simply because Blue is so control-oriented.
Sure, BR reanimator likes using Firestorm, but "regular" red decks can't get too much value out of the card. I would rather use it's black equivalent Sickening Dreams, since that way red doesn't lose a card for an effect that it doesn't want.
My thinking on Firestorm was that it provides red with another needed discard outlet (beyond Faithless Looting and Wheel of Fortune), as well as functioning reasonably in a non-reanimator deck.
Chandra Nalaar can kill basically any creature, comes with very high toughness and is not hard to ultimate. I don't see why it should get removed at all.
Yeah, you're probably right. My thinking was that the +2 doesn't really affect the board state as much as it should, and the -X often just leads to poor Chandra making a hasty exit to the graveyard, which basically makes it a 5cc Terminate. And with Bonfire of the Damned, the ultimate isn't as unique and exciting as it once was. But the versatility is really important, so it'll stay in.
The consensus seems to be that the loner cards are bad, Soulbond is pretty strong + there is a good token support as well. Still everybody seems to be convinced about the power of the edict effects. I would rather cut Diabolic Edict than Doom Blade.
Re: Exhume This doesn't make too much sense to me.
What I was trying to say is that in the mid-late game, when Nezumi doesn't really stand a chance of flipping due to filled graveyards, Exhume will almost always net you a better creature than a 2/1 for 2. Of course, it will also give your opponent something good as well. In any event, wtwlf convinced me that Nezumi is a better fit for the cube, as it both enables and combats regeneration shenanigans.
There's basically no card that makes me want to play green more than Garruk 3.
I know that's the overarching feeling on these boards. Can you explain it a little bit more to me? We've always seen as it as extremely underwhelming. It's green removal, sure, but you can't use it without moxen until turn 3, and you're only going to be able to get a 1 or 2 toughness creature out of the deal if you want to keep him around. Is the flipside that exciting? I don't think a 1/1 deathtouch is great shakes. The tutor is awesome, admittedly, but the ultimate is milquetoast. Basically it seems like it's too much effort to make it flip, and not enough reward. It just screams "durdle" to me. I respect the hell out of you and wtwlf both to know that I'm probably missing something here, but I'm not seeing it.
Additionally, the cuts of Capsize, Preordain, Garruk Relentless, Chandra Nalaar, Nezumi Graverobber and Trygon Predator I'd probably reverse or find other cuts. So overall, I'm not really a fan of the update at all, other than cutting Devastation Tide and Revenge of the Hunted.
Well gee, thanks for the constructive criticism. In any event, I find some of your objections confusing, as you removed Capsize from your 360 list before your expansion to 450, and in the Edric SCD you basically said that the Simic section was a pick'em between the big 4. You also had Preordain out of your 360 list for a very long time, deciding (rightly, imo) that it wasn't as good as Ponder.
Why do you think Graverobber is better than Exhume? Because it can carry equipment? The drawback of Exhume is too great?
Okay folks, after playing the cube pretty extensively this weekend, I'm considering quite a few changes, and I would really appreciate your feedback on them. I'm trying to re-orient the cube to be focused a little bit less on midrange and control.
First thing you'll notice is that the morph creatures and mediocre miracles are out. Both Devastation Tide and Revenge of the Hunted could be incredible, but they very seldom fit snugly in decks that used them. The morph creatures are going out not because they weren't good (they are), but more for aesthetic reasons--I think the mechanic is a little too goofy, and often difficult for new players to deal with. They'll probably be back, but for now they remain in the on-deck binder.
It's kind of en vogue to remove Capsize, and I can see why. Blue doesn't need another 6 CMC finisher, and Roil fits into the Blue tempo subtheme (while remaining great in the more traditional blue decks) I would like to encourage a little bit more. The same logic applies to Psi Blast and Daze, both extremely versatile blue cards.
Standstill has long been one of my favorite cards. It's great in U/x tempo, or after dropping an Upheaval. This will probably end up being a pet card that I'll remove after a few weeks, but I'm curious about the experiences others have had with it.
Another casualty of the de-morphing. Originally I was going to add Kor Sanctifiers, but I'm not sure white needs any more enchantment/artifact removal. I consider Seal of Cleansing to be superior to the Sanctifiers, as it also goes in pretty much every white deck, whereas Sanctifiers isn't really at home in white aggro. Knight is effective both in and against aggro, and allows control the lifegain that Angel provided previously.
Troll Ascetic is too good not to run, and silly me for not figuring that out earlier. Skinshifter is a decent-ish aggro card that can fit into a more midrange green deck in a pinch. Pouncing Jaguar is the best non-Rootwalla green 1-drop that I can run, since I don't really want to use a Portal card like Jungle Lion. Garruk 3.0 is clunky, and none of us really like playing with him.
Firestorm allows red to have another effective discard outlet, a necessity in my cube, since I push reanimator a little bit harder than other 360 lists. It can also be used to ravage the aggro player's board, even if it is a heavy investment.
I'm not sure a 360 cube needs 3 X spells, and Devil's Play is the worst of the 3 I run currently. Chandra has consistently underwhelmed. Am I missing something with her?
Nether Void is a killer aggro topper. Black has no shortage of targeted removal, and needed another discard outlet. Graverobber we've found to be too fragile/cute to actually go off even more than half the time (and more or less impossible if you drop it any turn after 5 or so). Exhume is pretty much never dead, even if the drawback is worse than the creature.
With the aggro push in both blue and green, Edric seems like an obvious include. I think the predator is probably the 3rd or 4th best simic card, but it's the worst fit in my cube, so out it goes.
Don't I know it. I think green might actually be the tightest section in the cube. I would never have guessed that when I first started constructing it.
And with that, here are the final (for now) changes, reflected in the cube contents list. Thanks to everybody.
Out -> In
Devastation Tide -> Cryptic Command
Capsize -> Aether Adept
Condescend -> Daze
Bribery -> Dungeon Geists
Diabolic Edict -> Nether Void
Hearth Kami -> Reckless Charge
Devil's Play -> Goblin Patrol
Revenge of the Hunted -> Wolfbitten Captive
Genesis -> Twinblade Slasher
Viridian Shaman -> Pouncing Jaguar
River Boa -> Skinshifter
Simic Sky Swallower -> Edric, Spymaster of Trest
Lodestone Golem -> Ankh of Mishra
Scroll Rack -> [CARD]Black Vise
[/CARD]
Balance, however, is simply bonkers.
Neither am I, frankly, but like you and everyone else have said, if you want green aggro to be viable, you need to really push it. Here are the 4+ CC creatures that I run:
I'm more excited to ramp into each one of those creatures than I am to ramp into Genesis. I understand that Genesis is objectively a better card than Pouncing Jaguar, but it's the most cuttable of the others, except maaaaaaaybe Phantom Centaur.
Obviously your cube list is what I modeled mine on, and the more I think about it the more I think you're on target w/r/t the morphs. I think I'm going to do this:
Knight of Meadowgrain -> Exalted Angel
Bribery -> Willbender
Diabolic Edict -> Bane of the Living
Keldon Vandals -> [CARD]Blistering Firecat
[/CARD]
Either Phantom Centaur or Viridian Shaman -> Nantuko Vigilante
Meadowgrain and Edict are easy cuts. Bribery isn't, but it's the weakest of blue's creature-theft spells, and I don't think the color needs to devote 10% of its space to that effect. Because of its echo costs, Vandals doesn't live to see as many turns as a more versatile artifact-removal creature like Hearth Kami. Vigilante can attack enchantments, Shaman can't, and Shaman is getting the axe because Uktabi Orangutan always makes me laugh when I look at it. Because I run Seal of Primordium, I'm less worried about losing an artifact removal card in the color than I otherwise would be (I'm running only 1 fewer than you were in your 360 list).
In a vaccum I like Boa more than Skinshifter, too (especially because I loved to play 10-land stompy way back when). But I think that Skinshifter will prove to be slightly better in green aggro, as well as being an excellent blocker for a minimal investment in midrange/control. In any event I'm going to keep a very close eye on this.
I think if I need to add another target for Natural Order, I'll end up squeezing in Pelakka Wurm, since at least you can hard cast it in a Rock or GW deck.
I know, I know! But don't you think 3 red XCC spells is overkill? How would you rank Devil's Play, Earthquake, and Bonfire of the Damned?
Out -> In
Green Aggro
Revenge of the Hunted -> Wolfbitten Captive
Genesis -> Twinblade Slasher
Nantuko Vigilante -> Pouncing Jaguar
River Boa -> Skinshifter
Genesis is the creature I'm least excited to ramp into; it's versatile and crushes in the control/midrange mirror, but I think it's the narrowest of the green 5-drops I run. I don't think I'll miss it.
River Boa hasn't overwhelmed or underwhelmed in its stay, it's just...whelmed. Like Skinshifter, it can go in green aggro or play a defensive position. But I want to try out Skinshifter and see if its 4 power plays better in aggro decks.
Simic Sky Swallower -> Edric, Spymaster of Trest
Something had to make room for Edric, and SSS is the least interesting of the 4 Simic cards. If I find that Natural Order needs another target to make it run smoother, I probably won't add this back in, but instead find a way for Pelakka Wurm.
Colorless Aggro
Lodestone Golem -> Ankh of Mishra
Scroll Rack -> Black Vise
Lodestone Golem was the worst of the aggro 4-drops. Scroll Rack isn't as good when you're not running the full miracle set. Besides, multicolor control decks need more checks and balances. Consider Ankh the check and Vise the balance.
Black Aggro
Bane of the Living -> Nether Void
Nether Void is boss.
Red
Blistering Firecat -> Reckless Charge
Earthquake -> Goblin Patrol
Slayers' Stronghold made me, like wtwlf, realize how great Charge is. I think it might even be a 360 staple. I don't need 3 Red XCC spells, and Earthquake is the most fungible. Goblin Patrol is boring, but gives red another 2-power 1-drop.
White
Exalted Angel -> Knight of Meadowgrain
Blue Tempo-ish
Devastation Tide -> Cryptic Command
Capsize -> Aether Adept
Condescend -> Daze
Willbender -> Dungeon Geists
These are changes I'm going to test for a few weeks. I want another free counterspell, Cryptic Command does double duty, and two extra value creatures are great for any blue deck.
Thanks, cube forum, for all your insight. You're the best!
When you put it that way, I guess it's pretty myopic to assume that every non-white color needs a good discard outlet. I think you just saved me 10 bucks. Thanks
Yeah, Nezumi and Chandra both remain, and Exhume is on the outside looking in.
I think I'm one of the few people on this board that consider Natural Order cubable, or at least powerful and fun enough to warrant inclusion as long as you have at least 3 principal targets for it. If I removed SSS, that leaves only two: Hornet Queen and Woodfall Primus. We all feel the effect is powerful enough to justify removing two of the fringe-y green cards to include it and Hornet Queen, but I'm not sure it's justifiable without SSS. Do you think it would be? Keep in mind that removing Natural Order, for now, is not an option for our playgroup.
In any event, if I don't find a way to squeeze in Edric, I may just take out Green aggro altogether. I'm only running 6 cards in the archetype:
I was hoping the inclusion of Edric, along with Pouncing Jaguar and Skinshifter, would help prop up the archetype, which struggles even as a secondary option in any aggro deck. Of course, Edric would also require an uptick in Blue tempo cards (which I described in my proposed update), and THAT would justify my keeping Geist of Saint Traft in the cube. Geist is a card that almost never sees play simply because Blue is so control-oriented.
That makes a lot of sense. Thanks!
Is it, though? The ability to dig 50% deeper into your 40 card deck is nothing to sneeze at.
My thinking on Firestorm was that it provides red with another needed discard outlet (beyond Faithless Looting and Wheel of Fortune), as well as functioning reasonably in a non-reanimator deck.
Yeah, you're probably right. My thinking was that the +2 doesn't really affect the board state as much as it should, and the -X often just leads to poor Chandra making a hasty exit to the graveyard, which basically makes it a 5cc Terminate. And with Bonfire of the Damned, the ultimate isn't as unique and exciting as it once was. But the versatility is really important, so it'll stay in.
I think that's actually a really interesting way of thinking about this. There are only 4 hexproof/shroud guys in the cube (Morphling, Simic Sky Swallower, Geist of St. Traft, and Thrun, the Last Troll). I think you're on to something here.
What I was trying to say is that in the mid-late game, when Nezumi doesn't really stand a chance of flipping due to filled graveyards, Exhume will almost always net you a better creature than a 2/1 for 2. Of course, it will also give your opponent something good as well. In any event, wtwlf convinced me that Nezumi is a better fit for the cube, as it both enables and combats regeneration shenanigans.
What should?
I know that's the overarching feeling on these boards. Can you explain it a little bit more to me? We've always seen as it as extremely underwhelming. It's green removal, sure, but you can't use it without moxen until turn 3, and you're only going to be able to get a 1 or 2 toughness creature out of the deal if you want to keep him around. Is the flipside that exciting? I don't think a 1/1 deathtouch is great shakes. The tutor is awesome, admittedly, but the ultimate is milquetoast. Basically it seems like it's too much effort to make it flip, and not enough reward. It just screams "durdle" to me. I respect the hell out of you and wtwlf both to know that I'm probably missing something here, but I'm not seeing it.
That's cool. Like I said, they're on time-out, not death row.
Well gee, thanks for the constructive criticism. In any event, I find some of your objections confusing, as you removed Capsize from your 360 list before your expansion to 450, and in the Edric SCD you basically said that the Simic section was a pick'em between the big 4. You also had Preordain out of your 360 list for a very long time, deciding (rightly, imo) that it wasn't as good as Ponder.
Why do you think Graverobber is better than Exhume? Because it can carry equipment? The drawback of Exhume is too great?
Out --> In
Willbender --> Daze
Devastation Tide --> Psionic Blast
Capsize --> Into the Roil
Preordain --> Standstill
First thing you'll notice is that the morph creatures and mediocre miracles are out. Both Devastation Tide and Revenge of the Hunted could be incredible, but they very seldom fit snugly in decks that used them. The morph creatures are going out not because they weren't good (they are), but more for aesthetic reasons--I think the mechanic is a little too goofy, and often difficult for new players to deal with. They'll probably be back, but for now they remain in the on-deck binder.
It's kind of en vogue to remove Capsize, and I can see why. Blue doesn't need another 6 CMC finisher, and Roil fits into the Blue tempo subtheme (while remaining great in the more traditional blue decks) I would like to encourage a little bit more. The same logic applies to Psi Blast and Daze, both extremely versatile blue cards.
Standstill has long been one of my favorite cards. It's great in U/x tempo, or after dropping an Upheaval. This will probably end up being a pet card that I'll remove after a few weeks, but I'm curious about the experiences others have had with it.
Exalted Angel --> Knight of Meadowgrain
Another casualty of the de-morphing. Originally I was going to add Kor Sanctifiers, but I'm not sure white needs any more enchantment/artifact removal. I consider Seal of Cleansing to be superior to the Sanctifiers, as it also goes in pretty much every white deck, whereas Sanctifiers isn't really at home in white aggro. Knight is effective both in and against aggro, and allows control the lifegain that Angel provided previously.
Revenge of the Hunted --> Troll Ascetic
Nantuko Vigilante --> Skinshifter
Garruk Relentless --> Pouncing Jaguar
Troll Ascetic is too good not to run, and silly me for not figuring that out earlier. Skinshifter is a decent-ish aggro card that can fit into a more midrange green deck in a pinch. Pouncing Jaguar is the best non-Rootwalla green 1-drop that I can run, since I don't really want to use a Portal card like Jungle Lion. Garruk 3.0 is clunky, and none of us really like playing with him.
Blistering Firecat --> Firestorm
Devil's Play --> Smash to Smithereens
Chandra Nalaar --> Zealous Conscripts
Firestorm allows red to have another effective discard outlet, a necessity in my cube, since I push reanimator a little bit harder than other 360 lists. It can also be used to ravage the aggro player's board, even if it is a heavy investment.
I'm not sure a 360 cube needs 3 X spells, and Devil's Play is the worst of the 3 I run currently. Chandra has consistently underwhelmed. Am I missing something with her?
Bane of the Living --> Nether Void
Doom Blade --> Putrid Imp
Nezumi Graverobber --> Exhume
Nether Void is a killer aggro topper. Black has no shortage of targeted removal, and needed another discard outlet. Graverobber we've found to be too fragile/cute to actually go off even more than half the time (and more or less impossible if you drop it any turn after 5 or so). Exhume is pretty much never dead, even if the drawback is worse than the creature.
Trygon Predator --> Edric, Spymaster of Trest
With the aggro push in both blue and green, Edric seems like an obvious include. I think the predator is probably the 3rd or 4th best simic card, but it's the worst fit in my cube, so out it goes.
Thoughts, hive mind?