my list is a lil janky because not only am i sort of a newbie, but i dont own all the cradles or NO's that i'd like too. i do still have some opinions on some cards in the list though that i'd like to share. here is my take:
first off, i want to say that deathrite shaman is amazing. when the going gets tough he gets going. he can actually shut some decks down. he is an alternate win con in the occasion odd game. and on top of it all he can still just be a llanowar for you. he is the best elf and i'm glad i've finally realized this.
second, i wanted to say that instead of going full on "stream line" with my list, i've found that having silver bullets in the main to be seemingly more successful. nettle in my mind was naturally first to go, because his power level didn't seem to match that of the others. reclamation hits alot of pesky targets and ooze can help fight the yard abusers, as well as help in grindy matchups. packmaster is a great plan-b when alot of elves are getting murdered.
regal force has won me games where craterhoof would not have. green sunning for a regal on turn 3 for 7 cards ends up being GG when you have at least one mana floating. i choose to go 1 regal and 1 hoof for my fatties.
and about sideboarding. i really am into testing a 4 color elf list right now. red and white. for more silver bullet targets. my thought is that with the combinations of deathrites, birchlores, and fetchlands we dont really have to worry about mana fixing.
also still hesitant to try shaman of the pack. not sure why.
It's a bit arrogant to drop into a thread and call all other posters dumb for not seeing the real thing...
I call it like I see it. And I never called anyone dumb. I think CoCo isn't good in elves. I just wanted to fire up some discussion. After my questions are answered, I'll leave.
How do you deal with the Grindier decks like Grixis or Jund?
nykthos, heritage druid, and archdruid along with 8+ mana dorks is how we deal. my feeling is why would we run all that if we didn't expect to have some mana to spend? its not hard to cast a chord to grab an ezuri or archdruid endphase when we are desperate. and yes, if they kill all our creatures with multiple removal spells we will have problems.. but we are explosive. its not cut and dry. they have to play the removal at the right time, and they need enough of it. that is also why we run lead and regal. they fill our hand back up. they give us steam. I mean.. You could run Coco along with Lead, but thats just like having 4 *****ty leads in your deck. Chord is more conditional to cast, i agree, but not much more. and it's rewards are worth the risks. it gives us the ability to win matchs when CoCo would otherwise just be meh.
i find the goal is to make a BIG play as soon as possible. casting regal when craterhoof wont work to give us cards for next turn, or casting terastodon to nuke our opponents lands so we dont lose next turn to a combo/sweeper. these are how i think elves should be winning games.
good points my friend. im gonna play a bunch of matches tonight and will share my results vs the higher tier lists i face.
The true strength of Chord is to tutor for fatties. With a good hand, Chord can tutor out Craterhoof Behemoth on turn 3-4 to win us the game. That is power. Not to mention the other creatures (silver bullets) we have access too. I feel CoCo has actually distracted alot of modern elf mages to forget about the power of the "fattie". CoCo lists are too worried about stream-lining your curve and forget that we are elves.. We should be casting BOMBS. Not some sort of incremental advantage by endphasing a CoCo into a couple of weenies. It's power really is pale in comparison to Chords. I didn't post my list yet because I'm still play testing vs all the top tier lists. Here it is anyways:
I have not picked up my elves since Collected Company was printed. Recently I caught the itch and I've done some theory crafting. My conclusions:
Collected Company is no good for us. First off, we cannot take Chord of Calling out. It's too powerful. Chord gives us the ability to win on turn 3 or 4. Next, it comes down to Lead vs CoCo. Lead is cheaper and gives us more card advantage. Lead is flexible allowing us to dig for a wider variety of creatures. CoCo is limiting, and only puts weenies into play. The best way I found to use CoCo was to stuff my deck with Lords and even still I would find myself paying 4 mana for 2 one-drops or something just as pathetic. Lead is an overall more efficient and effective card for us.
Shaman of the Pack slows down the goal of the deck. Elves true strength isn't tempo, it's momentum. All or nothing. So, making our opponent lose some life isn't worth much to us. Plus, he is a 3-drop that you don't want to play early? A terrible turn 2 play off a dork rendering him very non-versatile.
Land count at 18/19?? Why is nobody dipping down to 16-17 land? I've been testing at 16 all week and am having success (with minimum mulligans). I will most likely end up at 17. 18-19 lands seems too much.
Terastadon is my new pet. When Craterhoof doesn't work, kill their lands So devastating, this has been winning me games.
The OP has titled Elvish Visionary a "core" part of this deck. I see most elf lists (that place in tournys) run 3-4 elvish visionary, but lately lists have been cutting into them to open up slots for other cards (like shaman of the pack and daryns elite).
..my question is.. actually how important is elvish visionary? in my opinion it shouldn't be listed as a part of the "core", simply because what the visionary does is not necessary for our strategy.
back in the day.. when modern elves would run cloudstone curio, visionary would have been considered a "core" part of that list, because the draw-a-card ETB ability was a part of the combo. but now, since we are more of an aggro list, i just dont feel visionary is as "core" as we think. any thoughts??
also.. comments on darwyns elite? like, is he better for us than visionary?
tajuru preserver ??
much love.
4 memnite
4 ornithopter
4 signal pest
4 goblin bushwhacker
4 reckless bushwhacker
4 kuldotha rebirth
4 lightning bolt
4 goblin grenade
4 mishra's bauble
4 mox opal
4 simian spirit guide
12 mountain
4 heritage druid
4 quirion ranger
4 wirewood symbiote
2 birchlore rangers
4 elvish visionary
4 priest of titania
4 elvish archdruid
1 scavenging ooze
1 reclamation sage
1 wren's run packmaster
1 regal force
1 craterhoof behemoth
4 glimpse of nature
4 green sun's zenith
1 natural order
2 forest
1 stomping ground
1 savannah
2 bayou
2 misty rainforest
3 wooded foothills
2 windswept heath
2 verdant catacombs
1 gaea's cradle
1 thalia, guardian of thraben
1 ruric thar, the unbowed
1 melira, sylvok outcast
1 bane of progress
1 sylvan library
3 cabal therapy
3 abrupt decay
3 pithing needle
first off, i want to say that deathrite shaman is amazing. when the going gets tough he gets going. he can actually shut some decks down. he is an alternate win con in the occasion odd game. and on top of it all he can still just be a llanowar for you. he is the best elf and i'm glad i've finally realized this.
second, i wanted to say that instead of going full on "stream line" with my list, i've found that having silver bullets in the main to be seemingly more successful. nettle in my mind was naturally first to go, because his power level didn't seem to match that of the others. reclamation hits alot of pesky targets and ooze can help fight the yard abusers, as well as help in grindy matchups. packmaster is a great plan-b when alot of elves are getting murdered.
regal force has won me games where craterhoof would not have. green sunning for a regal on turn 3 for 7 cards ends up being GG when you have at least one mana floating. i choose to go 1 regal and 1 hoof for my fatties.
and about sideboarding. i really am into testing a 4 color elf list right now. red and white. for more silver bullet targets. my thought is that with the combinations of deathrites, birchlores, and fetchlands we dont really have to worry about mana fixing.
also still hesitant to try shaman of the pack. not sure why.
thats all for now.
3 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4 Fulminator Mage
4 Mana Tithe
4 Blackmail
4 Terminate
4 Boom//Bust
2 Shadow of Doubt
4 Stone Rain
2 Damnation
4 Ajani Vengeant
3 Blood Crypt
1 Godless Shrine
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Lavaclaw Reaches
4 Marsh Flats
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Mountain
2 Swamp
I call it like I see it. And I never called anyone dumb. I think CoCo isn't good in elves. I just wanted to fire up some discussion. After my questions are answered, I'll leave.
nykthos, heritage druid, and archdruid along with 8+ mana dorks is how we deal. my feeling is why would we run all that if we didn't expect to have some mana to spend? its not hard to cast a chord to grab an ezuri or archdruid endphase when we are desperate. and yes, if they kill all our creatures with multiple removal spells we will have problems.. but we are explosive. its not cut and dry. they have to play the removal at the right time, and they need enough of it. that is also why we run lead and regal. they fill our hand back up. they give us steam. I mean.. You could run Coco along with Lead, but thats just like having 4 *****ty leads in your deck. Chord is more conditional to cast, i agree, but not much more. and it's rewards are worth the risks. it gives us the ability to win matchs when CoCo would otherwise just be meh.
i find the goal is to make a BIG play as soon as possible. casting regal when craterhoof wont work to give us cards for next turn, or casting terastodon to nuke our opponents lands so we dont lose next turn to a combo/sweeper. these are how i think elves should be winning games.
good points my friend. im gonna play a bunch of matches tonight and will share my results vs the higher tier lists i face.
I'm not going off assumptions.
The true strength of Chord is to tutor for fatties. With a good hand, Chord can tutor out Craterhoof Behemoth on turn 3-4 to win us the game. That is power. Not to mention the other creatures (silver bullets) we have access too. I feel CoCo has actually distracted alot of modern elf mages to forget about the power of the "fattie". CoCo lists are too worried about stream-lining your curve and forget that we are elves.. We should be casting BOMBS. Not some sort of incremental advantage by endphasing a CoCo into a couple of weenies. It's power really is pale in comparison to Chords. I didn't post my list yet because I'm still play testing vs all the top tier lists. Here it is anyways:
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Pendlehaven
2 Cavern of Souls
8 Forest
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Arbor Elf
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Heritage Druid
4 Joraga Warcaller
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Elvish Archdruid
2 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
4 Lead the Stampede
4 Chord of Calling
Collected Company is no good for us. First off, we cannot take Chord of Calling out. It's too powerful. Chord gives us the ability to win on turn 3 or 4. Next, it comes down to Lead vs CoCo. Lead is cheaper and gives us more card advantage. Lead is flexible allowing us to dig for a wider variety of creatures. CoCo is limiting, and only puts weenies into play. The best way I found to use CoCo was to stuff my deck with Lords and even still I would find myself paying 4 mana for 2 one-drops or something just as pathetic. Lead is an overall more efficient and effective card for us.
Shaman of the Pack slows down the goal of the deck. Elves true strength isn't tempo, it's momentum. All or nothing. So, making our opponent lose some life isn't worth much to us. Plus, he is a 3-drop that you don't want to play early? A terrible turn 2 play off a dork rendering him very non-versatile.
Land count at 18/19?? Why is nobody dipping down to 16-17 land? I've been testing at 16 all week and am having success (with minimum mulligans). I will most likely end up at 17. 18-19 lands seems too much.
Terastadon is my new pet. When Craterhoof doesn't work, kill their lands So devastating, this has been winning me games.
That's all for now.
The OP has titled Elvish Visionary a "core" part of this deck. I see most elf lists (that place in tournys) run 3-4 elvish visionary, but lately lists have been cutting into them to open up slots for other cards (like shaman of the pack and daryns elite).
..my question is.. actually how important is elvish visionary? in my opinion it shouldn't be listed as a part of the "core", simply because what the visionary does is not necessary for our strategy.
back in the day.. when modern elves would run cloudstone curio, visionary would have been considered a "core" part of that list, because the draw-a-card ETB ability was a part of the combo. but now, since we are more of an aggro list, i just dont feel visionary is as "core" as we think. any thoughts??
also.. comments on darwyns elite? like, is he better for us than visionary?
my style is much more aggressive i guess. maybe i'm not jeskai control, but i didn't know which thread to start on - i'm new to this color combo.
as for visions and probe. it may not be popular, but they work. so i like using them. they smooth everything out so much.
grim lavamancer may work well in my list also. i dunnos.
thanks, much love.