Even unflipped, the +1 from the Gang is really nice, turning the Outlaw into a 3/2 first-striker and the Terror into a 4/3 double-striker. Flipped, the Wildblood Pack makes the Outlaw a 5/2 first-striker and the Terror into a 6/3 double-striker.
The problem is getting them flipped reliably and keeping them flipped, especially in a deck that likes casting multiple spells each turn.
Played with the Outlaw today, and I didn't find it very good.
I played round 3 versus zombies, and the first strike did hold off quite a bit.
During the 4 rounds, it flipped once, and that was due to me passing. (Played 2 of them in the deck)
I think that in 9/10 times, it's a 2/2 first strike for 3. That is not that bad to be honest, but Stromkirk Captain is probably better then, as Falkenrath Aristocrat and Stromkirk Noble are heavily played.
For the Instigator, you have to compare it to our 4 drops, Hellrider and Aristocrat. Hellrider having haste, being bigger and dealing damage through blocks to finish games makes him better than Instigator Gang, probably not better than Wilblood Pack. But assuming it being on the flipside is a rare occasion, and the fact that your opponent can flip it back, prepare combatwise for the flip and get removal for it, makes it bad. Aristocrat is fast and deadly and don't require overextension, so in many cases even better than Hellrider, and should thus be better than Gang aswell.
Gang is a card for decks swarming and winning in numbers. Allthough Hellrider is aswell, the haste and reach (damagewise) is a major factor to why we play it
Cool. Thanks for the feedback. I will try what you suggested and see what works. I've been trying to find room for a fog and druid's deliverance. I would love to tutor for Clinging Mists, Druid's Deliverance and Fog. Stall for 3 turns, ha!
If stalling is your game, you could tutor for Cyclonic Rift, as that can be used in their combat phase, and set them back more than a turn. In terms of damage that is.
Think many people will argue this is bad, but you obviously want to play it, so go ahead.
Here are my suggestions for improvements:
Fog Bank as an exceptionally good blocker, and a defender for Axebane Guardian?
Manor Gargoyle could be an alternative to hellion crucible, as you stated you had some mana issues, this seems easier. Pretty resilient early game, counts as a defender fo Axebane, and gains evasion on the final strike. Bad against Detention Spheres, Terminus and the similiar.
Traveler's Amulet and Caravan Vigil does 2 things. Mana fix, and mana thinning, for 2 mana. I would rather have something speeding you up, such as farseek, Chromatic Lantern and Gilded Lotus. These 3 would help you all the way up to the massive amounts of mana you're gonna need.
For a fog, I would choose Fog instead of clinging mists, as clinging mists is too much mana.
If you haven't read it already, I would like to point to the awesome analysis done in the primer:
I actually like the card a lot. It is very good in legacy burn. Some of us ran it to a lot of success in a standard burn deck very recently (you can view the discussion through the link above).
Some things to know about the 'punisher' cards (so called because they punish you when your opponent gets to choose):
- your opponent gets to choose in what mode the card operates. Obvious, but this bears repeating.
- the worth of the card is not in either mode. Obviously, a 4/3 for R or 4 damage for R are both excellent. But you won't get the better half when you want it. Making the card playable means having a deck that can make the most of the worse-half. For example, in legacy, you're going to usually get the 4 damage for R - turns out that is perfectly fine in a deck of 20 lightning bolts. In standard, where the burn quality is much lower, the card disadvantage of throwing away a card is a much more real concern - damage to the opponent isnt really good unless it kills them - because if it doesnt, you're just down a card for nothing.
- importantly, it is a bad topdeck. Unlike an actual burn spell, you cannot draw it to kill an opponent when you need to. It also isnt a blocker off the top when you need it. This is surprisingly relevant in standard.
- standard really requires a creature to be a repetitive source of damage. This is even more important now that there is increased lifegain in the format. If your plan is to kill your opponent with 7-8 burn spells and they gain 5 life, you're in a lot of trouble. If your plan is to beat them to death with creatures, gaining life isnt always a big deal.
When we were playing vexing devil, it was alongside Shrine of Burning Rage, Incinerate, Searing Spear and Thunderbolt. That is a much more high quality burn package than is available right now. Vexing Devil fits more comfortably into that deck because you can realistically just kill someone with spells. We can't do that now, so we need creatures to do a lot of work. 4 damage for R seems like a lot, but when you realise that Cackler does that in two turns and can then trade for something, or Stromkirk Noble can just take over a game by itself, it isnt that impressive - and the additional play (and opportunity to outplay) your opponent with actual burn spells or creatures cannot be underestimated.
Vexing Devil gets unfairly dismissed. It is not nearly as bad as a lot of its detractors claim on the forums. For the most part, theyre bad players or relying on word of mouth or relying on the fact that similar punisher cards have been bad in the past. But Vexing Devil has the most pushed modes of any punisher card so far. It isnt always going to be good in standard, but if a card sees play in legacy, it is a powerful card. Many cards that are important in legacy never saw that much play in standard. It happens sometimes - a card just needs to be part of a shell that needs more parts than Standard can provide. That is basically the case here.
In summary:
- there isnt enough high quality burn spells to make a burn deck viable in standard
- as a result the most common mode of Vexing Devil - take 4 damage - is actively bad
- there is a lot of lifegain in standard
- we need creatures that can deal consistent damage. Vexing Devil will usually be a one-time 4 damage. This isnt enough of a return anymore.
- red has other very aggressive 1-drops that are often going to do 4 damage.
- Vexing Devil is still awesome in eternal formats.
Kudos to Zemanjaski, or who it was that wrote it.
So he shouldn't fit in a regular RDW shell, but if you try a burn based one, he will most likely fit.
Problem is, such deck is not yet powerful enough, or so it was stated in the discussion above. I don't have many personal experiences with it.
Suggestions for such a deck: Bump in the Night, Guttersnipe, Thunderbolt and the usual burn package.
Also, America is RUW due to the colors being represented in the flag.
I do find it funny though that Red blue and white are common on flags. If I recall correctly they symbolize freedom in some way.
Of the top of my head, I know that France, Norway, Great Britain and Australia use them
Make our 8/8 doublestriker 11/11. Then double it twice, so its a 44/44 doublestriker, dealing 88 damage to the regenerating Lotleth Troll.
Wait, forgot we're in magical christmas land, so we'll flashback the vengeance, and make it a 176/176 doublestriker, and really stick it to that stupid troll. Also, trample is for noobs.
I've been running Nevermore over Pithing Needle in the SB (I'm running Bant btw). No real downsides other than it costs more to cast, and you can essentially name any card that would be bad for you at that point in the match. Thoughts?
Pithing Needle has the advantage of having an effect after the walker has landed.
Due to that you can keep it in hand and play it the turn after they're planeswalker lands, and you won't have to guess whether it's a Tamiyo or a Jace, same with Garruk, Garruk and Vraska, who are good friends.
I prefer damage and Orings (Got 2 SB) to deal with planeswalkers.
For me, it's mostly about the community, which I think is a great one, for the most part.
There are those extremists, like: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrorO6AMmRc
They claim the show is made for them, and take the "Love and tolerance" thing waaay to far.
Bronies also have their own "memes" I guess, like 20% cooler, Silly Pony, Scootaloo being a chicken and so on.
What would be the optimal play here, and what differences does your opponents boardstate and deck make?
Should the Paladin be played out and bonded with the Smiter for early pressure, or should we play the angel hoping to lure out some removal, then continue with Silverheart next turn followed by Paladin for a 8/8 Doublestriker?
There are many combinations here, which one would you choose?
You do realize harvest pyre only hits creatures, right?
I do like the idea of abusing past in flames, but maybe in a more token oriented deck. More tokens by sorceries, battlehymn, hellriders and devils play.
Played with the Outlaw today, and I didn't find it very good.
I played round 3 versus zombies, and the first strike did hold off quite a bit.
During the 4 rounds, it flipped once, and that was due to me passing. (Played 2 of them in the deck)
I think that in 9/10 times, it's a 2/2 first strike for 3. That is not that bad to be honest, but Stromkirk Captain is probably better then, as Falkenrath Aristocrat and Stromkirk Noble are heavily played.
For the Instigator, you have to compare it to our 4 drops, Hellrider and Aristocrat. Hellrider having haste, being bigger and dealing damage through blocks to finish games makes him better than Instigator Gang, probably not better than Wilblood Pack. But assuming it being on the flipside is a rare occasion, and the fact that your opponent can flip it back, prepare combatwise for the flip and get removal for it, makes it bad. Aristocrat is fast and deadly and don't require overextension, so in many cases even better than Hellrider, and should thus be better than Gang aswell.
Gang is a card for decks swarming and winning in numbers. Allthough Hellrider is aswell, the haste and reach (damagewise) is a major factor to why we play it
If stalling is your game, you could tutor for Cyclonic Rift, as that can be used in their combat phase, and set them back more than a turn. In terms of damage that is.
Here are my suggestions for improvements:
Fog Bank as an exceptionally good blocker, and a defender for Axebane Guardian?
Manor Gargoyle could be an alternative to hellion crucible, as you stated you had some mana issues, this seems easier. Pretty resilient early game, counts as a defender fo Axebane, and gains evasion on the final strike. Bad against Detention Spheres, Terminus and the similiar.
Traveler's Amulet and Caravan Vigil does 2 things. Mana fix, and mana thinning, for 2 mana. I would rather have something speeding you up, such as farseek, Chromatic Lantern and Gilded Lotus. These 3 would help you all the way up to the massive amounts of mana you're gonna need.
For a fog, I would choose Fog instead of clinging mists, as clinging mists is too much mana.
For a name, maybe Fireminds Tribute?
Good luck with the deck
I actually like the card a lot. It is very good in legacy burn. Some of us ran it to a lot of success in a standard burn deck very recently (you can view the discussion through the link above).
Some things to know about the 'punisher' cards (so called because they punish you when your opponent gets to choose):
- your opponent gets to choose in what mode the card operates. Obvious, but this bears repeating.
- the worth of the card is not in either mode. Obviously, a 4/3 for R or 4 damage for R are both excellent. But you won't get the better half when you want it. Making the card playable means having a deck that can make the most of the worse-half. For example, in legacy, you're going to usually get the 4 damage for R - turns out that is perfectly fine in a deck of 20 lightning bolts. In standard, where the burn quality is much lower, the card disadvantage of throwing away a card is a much more real concern - damage to the opponent isnt really good unless it kills them - because if it doesnt, you're just down a card for nothing.
- importantly, it is a bad topdeck. Unlike an actual burn spell, you cannot draw it to kill an opponent when you need to. It also isnt a blocker off the top when you need it. This is surprisingly relevant in standard.
- standard really requires a creature to be a repetitive source of damage. This is even more important now that there is increased lifegain in the format. If your plan is to kill your opponent with 7-8 burn spells and they gain 5 life, you're in a lot of trouble. If your plan is to beat them to death with creatures, gaining life isnt always a big deal.
When we were playing vexing devil, it was alongside Shrine of Burning Rage, Incinerate, Searing Spear and Thunderbolt. That is a much more high quality burn package than is available right now. Vexing Devil fits more comfortably into that deck because you can realistically just kill someone with spells. We can't do that now, so we need creatures to do a lot of work. 4 damage for R seems like a lot, but when you realise that Cackler does that in two turns and can then trade for something, or Stromkirk Noble can just take over a game by itself, it isnt that impressive - and the additional play (and opportunity to outplay) your opponent with actual burn spells or creatures cannot be underestimated.
Vexing Devil gets unfairly dismissed. It is not nearly as bad as a lot of its detractors claim on the forums. For the most part, theyre bad players or relying on word of mouth or relying on the fact that similar punisher cards have been bad in the past. But Vexing Devil has the most pushed modes of any punisher card so far. It isnt always going to be good in standard, but if a card sees play in legacy, it is a powerful card. Many cards that are important in legacy never saw that much play in standard. It happens sometimes - a card just needs to be part of a shell that needs more parts than Standard can provide. That is basically the case here.
In summary:
- there isnt enough high quality burn spells to make a burn deck viable in standard
- as a result the most common mode of Vexing Devil - take 4 damage - is actively bad
- there is a lot of lifegain in standard
- we need creatures that can deal consistent damage. Vexing Devil will usually be a one-time 4 damage. This isnt enough of a return anymore.
- red has other very aggressive 1-drops that are often going to do 4 damage.
- Vexing Devil is still awesome in eternal formats.
So he shouldn't fit in a regular RDW shell, but if you try a burn based one, he will most likely fit.
Problem is, such deck is not yet powerful enough, or so it was stated in the discussion above. I don't have many personal experiences with it.
Suggestions for such a deck: Bump in the Night, Guttersnipe, Thunderbolt and the usual burn package.
I do find it funny though that Red blue and white are common on flags. If I recall correctly they symbolize freedom in some way.
Of the top of my head, I know that France, Norway, Great Britain and Australia use them
Jace the Weenieslayer
Fact or Fiction Jace
Windy Jace (look art)
Silverblade Paladin
Wolfir Silverheart
Fetch:
Rush of Blood
Increasing Vengeance
Giant Growth
Make our 8/8 doublestriker 11/11. Then double it twice, so its a 44/44 doublestriker, dealing 88 damage to the regenerating Lotleth Troll.
Wait, forgot we're in magical christmas land, so we'll flashback the vengeance, and make it a 176/176 doublestriker, and really stick it to that stupid troll. Also, trample is for noobs.
Pithing Needle has the advantage of having an effect after the walker has landed.
Due to that you can keep it in hand and play it the turn after they're planeswalker lands, and you won't have to guess whether it's a Tamiyo or a Jace, same with Garruk, Garruk and Vraska, who are good friends.
I prefer damage and Orings (Got 2 SB) to deal with planeswalkers.
Myself, being one, I enjoy the show, and much of the fanwork done.
There's music:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPfMb50dsOk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPjVCIX5Fvs
There's humor:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ay_1IZGxMaA (Long vid is looong)
There's also fanfiction, and lots of other stuff.
For me, it's mostly about the community, which I think is a great one, for the most part.
There are those extremists, like:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrorO6AMmRc
They claim the show is made for them, and take the "Love and tolerance" thing waaay to far.
Bronies also have their own "memes" I guess, like 20% cooler, Silly Pony, Scootaloo being a chicken and so on.
Turn 3 you have this on hand:
Silverblade Paladin, Sublime Archangel, Wolfir Silverheart, Forest and Rogue's Passage
What would be the optimal play here, and what differences does your opponents boardstate and deck make?
Should the Paladin be played out and bonded with the Smiter for early pressure, or should we play the angel hoping to lure out some removal, then continue with Silverheart next turn followed by Paladin for a 8/8 Doublestriker?
There are many combinations here, which one would you choose?
Fencing Ace
Silverblade Paladin
Rhox Faithmender
I think a UB build would work well. Nighthawk and Invisible Stalker as carriers, then mill, cantrips, draw and a control package.
I do like the idea of abusing past in flames, but maybe in a more token oriented deck. More tokens by sorceries, battlehymn, hellriders and devils play.
Ohh sorry, I meant the september ones, but I see now they're finished. I must've missed the poll :/