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  • posted a message on Surge - Modern Dice Factory
    Quote from Ratwohl »
    But in a situation with five atrifacts, shouldn't you be ahead on mana anyway?


    That's pretty much been the conclusion in the Legacy scene since the card was spoiled. Actual Tolarian Academy? Busto. Academy that costs 4 mana to play and flips when you already have stuff going on? Not super great. The power of the flip cards outside of standard is directly tied to how much mana they cost to get down in the first place, and what effects they have for that cost. Flipping needs to be a value-add, not the reason for playing it.
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
  • posted a message on Surge - Modern Dice Factory
    Quote from Heskatet »
    I also think you aren't aware of what a resolved Wildfire or Death Cloud do to the enemy


    I played Budde's Dragon in Standard; I have a Saga playset signed by him. I've played Destructive Flow in Extended and Legacy. I played Eminent Domain in Standard. I've been playing a terrible version of that deck in Modern since the format's inception. I have a pretty good idea what that card can do to the enemy, and I don't think the best use of the mana generation engine presented here is casting that card. YMMV, but I'm pretty much done with this discussion until consistent results demonstrate otherwise.

    Quote from redbaron4850 »

    The other card I think you don't see the power of is Whir of Invention compared to Fabricate. Fabricate is nice, and has an easy casting cost. That is the only thing that is better about it than Whir. Whir is instant speed, puts it onto the battlefield, and has improvise. Improvise doesn't help much unless your ramp is disrupted, but it can mean the difference between casting the card and not sometimes.


    WB Baron! And now I argue with you :p

    My complaints about Whir largely come down to UUU being difficult to generate outside of a live Cornucopia. If you've got tons of mana, you are usually going off already.

    Quote from Ratwohl »
    An example for this: One has to deal with Stony Silence somehow and derayling the efficieny of the combo with enchantment removal that you still need to have in the case of Stony Silence is not the way to go. (This is an old MtG discussion, going even back to the Dojo days.)


    I participated in those Dojo discussions Smile I think you will be fine with the Transformation board, but my problem - in Eternal formats specifically - is that the diversity of a given room is so high that effective, versatile SB slots are generally preferable to single-case cards. Vintage players would *love* not to have to play Graveyard hate, but if enough of a room skimps on it, Dredge becomes the 'best deck.' REB is often the best card to bring in, but only because it is so effective against blue strategies as a whole. Stony Silence is great against janky artifact decks across the board... Wink So you are left balancing deck (or strategy) specific cards (Leyline, Artifact/Enchantment hate) against cards that are better for you against the field, or in this case, a Transforming board that preemptively negates a common SB strategy against you.

    Quote from Ratwohl »
    Serum Visions is an okay card. It costs only one mana, which is important for the critical phase, and sets up the draws on turn one
    ...
    Glimmervoid makes going into multi-color really easy. But it comes with the cost of not being able to say "Serum Visions, go." on turn 1. It just can force your opening to play really awkwardly... Spire of Industry has the same issue.


    I have to agree with redbaron here. You're not playing efficient Rainbow lands because of the cost of playing an "okay" card turn 1, assuming you don't have any of your free artifact spells to go along with it? I mean, I understand your logic, but I feel like you are making a compromise on your mana efficiency because of corner-case Turn 1 plays.
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
  • posted a message on Surge - Modern Dice Factory
    Quote from Earthbound21 »
    You shouldn't need Reversal at all with 8 Paradox Engines.


    I just saw this part re-reading the discussion. Are you claiming that being able to being able to cast Fabricate for an Engine is just like having another 4 Engines in the context of this deck? Because you are either spending 8 mana at sorcery speed, or you're breaking it up over 2 turns making it susceptible to traditional disruption. Unless you are also playing Tron, I'm not entirely sure how you are getting 8 free mana T3/T4 without using Reversal.



    I play Dredge occasionally in Vintage and Legacy. I've been on both sides of Blood Moon and CotV:1 in Legacy. I'm *extremely* familiar with playing a deck that effectively loses on the spot to a popular sideboard card. I run as many Enchantment kill cards in my SB as they can run Stony's because I recognize that it exists, but they have to draw it, play it, and win before I can deal with it.

    Basing the construction and execution of your main deck on the existence of a potential SB card from your opponent is shaving potential advantage out of fear. I feel that the combo-centric builds of the deck are both more reliable against the makeup of the field and more explosive in general. You could easily build UR storm to be less reliant on creatures that die to Lightning bolt, yet that doesn't seem to be a terribly popular option.


    I personally have very little interest in trying to resolve a Death Cloud or Wildfire using the core engine of the deck, because I would much rather satisfy a State-Based Effect that wins me the game the turn I go off, rather than build some appreciable advantage and say 'Go.'
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
  • posted a message on Surge - Modern Dice Factory
    Quote from Ratwohl »

    <Sane Discussion>


    Based on your understanding of the function of Thoughtcast (seriously people, we aren't Qumulox Affinity here...) I look forward to further discussion. I like the idea of Crane as a chump, a lot. And yeah, Atlas is obscenely strong, as are most symmetrical effects.

    I still like Ballista for wins based on generating non-deterministic cycles of mana - looping BSZ requires the Engine, while I can Fireball people with a few Dramatic Reversal or Voltaic Key steps.

    Looking forward to trying something new though. Lantern is strong, but it's way less fun than this thing.

    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
  • posted a message on Surge - Modern Dice Factory
    Quote from Earthbound21 »
    I feel like a lot of these decks are unfocused. You have the best cantrip in stirrings and best card draw in thoughtcast available to you. Why not go hard on comboing them.

    ...

    The deck at its core is High Tide or Heartbeat.


    I am certainly inclined to agree with you - see my list above. IME, all-in on Paradox Engine is rough, which is why I run the Reversals/Scepters. Between that and the keys, I can reasonably expect to go off without an Engine some games. The Reservoir is there largely as a main-deck answer to burn and hyper aggro strategies that also represents a wincon in ~25% of games. Most of the time you're just Stroking them or casting a Walking Fireball.

    I just don't like Thoughtcast. I rarely have problems drawing cards between the Bells, Atlases, Stirrings, and Zenith, and the repeatable effects represent the same level of card advantage the turn before you go off (EoT, Untap, Do it again.)


    But I digress, I've been playing Lantern more than anything lately, because it's better in a room filled with a bunch of stupid Titanshift decks. And I'm questioning if a format that hinges on whether the Tron players natural it or not is going to be much fun moving forward....
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
  • posted a message on Surge - Modern Dice Factory
    Quote from megatog201 »
    This has probably been asked, but any consideration for Colition relic as a few of to compliment the fast Mana y'all make?
    Reason I'm asking is let's say you can play it early. Add a counter then proliferate to jump you up 2 mana. Also in games where you have node but no chalice or copia you could put the extra counters on it to make Mana for whir.


    -The most popular card to proliferate is Gambit, and it comes online way after Relic mana would be useful.

    -The counters on Relic are only useful once, and you have to start your main phase with them on it.
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
  • posted a message on Surge - Modern Dice Factory
    Quote from DomiO »
    Hi Guys,

    im currently testing this list on XMage.

    <Deck>

    What do you guys think about it? Any suggestions?


    - You don't really have a good way to draw cards once your engine is going. Hedron Archive is a one-shot (have you tried Courier's Capsule, it's just more efficient?), and Magnifying Glass is *very* conditional. Planar Portal is nice, but you have to already be doing things before it's any good. Honestly, you should try at least some Otherworld Atlass or some Temple Bells to see how you feel about it. You're going to be activating them most often on your opponent's end step, so the only thing you are really worried about giving them most games is straight permission.

    - Tezzeret's Gambit seems fun, but it's really inefficient. The proliferate only benefits you if one of your engines is already online, otherwise it's draw 2 for 4. Thirst for Knowledge was strictly better in testing for me, and I don't run either in my list anymore, because...

    - Ancient Stirrings may be one of the most powerful cards in Modern today. It's going to be better than Serum Visions in most cases, since it looks deeper and you have control over the card you are getting now, as opposed to setting up later.

    - You're going to flood out on Blue Sun's Zeniths. The card costs 4 to draw 1. I love it for the reasons you listed, but I only run 2 between the main and the board. I like Whir of Invention, but again, it still costs UUU at all times, so it's harder to cast if you have a lot of colorless sources.

    Quote from DomiO »
    I have the most problems with discard.


    That's fair, Discard is one of the 'normal' methods of interaction in Modern that affects us - Paths and Bolts and Slips don't do much. I run 3 Leyline of Sanctitys in the board alongside 2 Padeem, Consul of Innovations. Also, the Stirrings are a great way to protect against discard as well, because they are more likely to be able to replace what gets taken than Gambit or Visions.

    FYI, I *much* prefer the combo-oriented build to the Midrange/Wildfire/Sultai/Whatever that seems to be more popular for discussion, as you are less likely to run into random midrange creatures you can't do anything about (oh hey there Tasigur!) and you aren't reliant on Death's Shadows blanking on your Bridges. But YMMV, as most of the people in this thread are more concerned with doing Cool Things than winning more games than they lose. Wink





    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
  • posted a message on Surge - Modern Dice Factory
    Quote from blba »

    well, this is not only very polemical but also pretty thoughtlessly: in which world can u compare Covetous dragon ( i guess thats the card u a reffering)with cards like walking ballista,etc? i dont see it sry. And obvsly is the card wildfire against some amount of match ups not that great: i wrote sthg about it, but u also may not have seen it respectively just didnt care


    Coveteous Dragon was the original win condition for the Artifact-accelerated Wildfire deck when the card was first printed. Kai won Worlds in '99 with it. Your deck is trying to accelerate out a Wildfire using Artifact Mana, and winning with a creature that is unlikely to die because of it.


    I'm not trying to suggest that your ideas are bad, or that your deck is bad. I'm asking if winning with a synergy-card like Wildfire is that much better than just winning without it.
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
  • posted a message on Surge - Modern Dice Factory
    Quote from blba »
    it's simply the best 1 mana filter in modern. But after playing games after games i started to recognize a real problem everyone should notice: u can only find colorless spells


    Maybe don't play so many colored spells then?

    There are few people on the planet more disposed to try to jam Wildfire at every available opportunity - I still try to make Modern Annex Wildfire work, it really doesn't, I am sad... I just keep looking at these lists with stuff like Wildfire and Gearhulk, and I'm wondering why you are diluting what is effectively a very efficient linear combo deck with random 5 and 6 drops.

    Traditionally successful Wildfire lists leverage Artifact acceleration to break the symmetry of Wildfire, enabling it to come down faster and to be easier to recover from yourself. The 'problem' with this in Modern is that the Artifact acceleration is both relatively 'fair' - no Grim Monoliths-into-Thran Dynamos here! - and awfully slow. In effect, what you are trying to do is to use the underlying Dice-Factory engine to power out a relatively mediocre Midrange plan - Subpar Covetous and Wildfire - when you could just win the game on the spot with the same amount of effort and different cards.

    Modern is increasingly a format about having the most explosive gameplan and executing through the least amount of effective disruption. Affinity and Storm do not care about your Turn 4 Wildfire. Eldrazi Tron is ecstatic that you are blowing up the world and leaving behind Reality Smashers. Look at Regional results from large areas like Atlanta, or Chicago; CoCo and Humans are the fairest decks you can expect to play against, everything else just runs hot and fast.

    Quote from deaddrift »
    So I haven't read the thread, but don't you just get shut down by Stony, or by EE or Ratchet Bomb?


    Yes. The attractive part of the deck (for me) is that you are effectively Affinity but you don't have to interact with the Combat Step. Stony Silence is a beating, you have to SB for it. Honestly, EE and Bomb are less of one for me, because they are MUCH less prevalent in SBs across modern. But it's really no different to something like Tormods Crypt to any reanimation strategy, or Aethersworn Cannonist to Storm.


    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
  • posted a message on Surge - Modern Dice Factory
    Quote from Heskatet »

    Sun Droplet is a personal sideboard choice for Burn


    I <3 Sun Droplet, not just against straight Burn, but against a lot of small-red-dude based aggro match-ups. If they're hitting you with creatures that easily slide under Bridge, Sun Droplet is a huuuuuge slowdown for them, often buying you a turn or 2 on it's own.

    Quote from Mizral »
    I bring in Trinisphere against Storm which is everywhere right now when in using it proactively. I also like it against tempo-style blue decks such as Faeries.


    I find myself saying this more and more, but I'm sort of glad I don't have to deal with your Meta (yet.) Gifts Storm hasn't blown up around me yet, but I expect it's coming soon enough.

    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
  • posted a message on Surge - Modern Dice Factory
    Quote from Mizral »
    One last point - this deck is an insanely expensive modern deck. I happen to have the paper cards for it due to having a very old collection, but putting this together 'for fun' is almost impossible for most players.



    I understand your point, but keep in mind that the kind of player that's going to enjoy playing this deck is likely coming from a Legacy/Vintage background. I am enjoying it because it feels similar to High Tide, and if you can afford (Or have) Candlesticks, you are ecstatic that Opals are played in more than one Deck :p


    What matchups are you bringing in 3-Sphere against? How are you functioning or going off underneath it since the manabase is super slim until you get a colorless engine going?


    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
  • posted a message on Surge - Modern Dice Factory
    A friend stumbled across a similar list being discussed here a number weeks ago, and we liked it enough to actually try putting it through it's paces online and IRL. I'm a big fan of anything that lets me feel like I'm playing Legacy in Modern, and Mox Opal/Coretapper/0-CMC-Artifacts qualify. The basic list we've been working with follows:



    A few notes:

    - I don't feel like Scepter/Reversal is arbitrarily a bad thing. Reversal allows the deck to go off manually under less-than-optimal board states, and often times accelerating out something like an Ugin or a Emmy post-board is good 'nuff. And if you're playing Reversal, it's really hard not to take the free wins that Scepter gives you.

    - Agree that you often want to be winning the game the turn Engine hits the board, but there are an awful lot of games that you can set up a potential win on-board the following turn and pass, assuming you are not already dead-on-board. The format's fundamental turn feels very much determined by the combat step, and the lack of many significant hasty or combat tricks mean that you can reasonably plan your winning turn in advance.

    Also, this means it's not nearly as scary to give combat-oriented decks additional cards the turn before you plan to go off, especially in pre-boarded games where they are less likely to have clean answers to what you are trying to do.


    - It feels like a significant amount of power in the deck exists in the ability to generate multiple cards the turn you expect to go off, a la Meditate. There are combo decks that need to have all of the pieces in place before they try to go off - this really doesn't feel like one of them. You have reasonable percentages to draw what you need to move forward, especially with 3 Reversals in the list to run your engines manually again.
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
  • posted a message on June 13 banlist update - AETHERWORKS MARVEL BANNED
    Quote from Pokerkingdave »

    there were 7 banned during combo winter. in recent memory i agree with you.

    http://mtg.gamepedia.com/Timeline_of_DCI_bans_and_restrictions


    10, actually, by the time they got around to banning MOM. And they would have likely banned Bargain at the time, had there been more major events over the summer. Not to mention the 'Power level Errata' on the Free stuff.

    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Eternal Masters Confirmed
    Quote from Zombie Shakespeare »
    Even if this set has a larger print run than Modern Masters 2 it still won't effect prices as dramatically as the fakes being sold in bulk for cheap. I think this set is finally seeing the light of day as a result of the success of the Modern Masters sets and because of people inside/close to Wizards that enjoy the older formats.


    This guy gets it. There simply aren't going to be enough FoW's printed to affect the price by more than a few points. This set is short term bad news for speculators who might take a hit on more than 4 copies of a card, for everyone else, it's just gravy. It's a supplemental product, in the same vein as Conspiracy or MMA, that requires practically no development effort and results in a very in-demand retail sku that stores are free to price as they see fit.


    Also, people talking about Dual Land economics who never played with them as a special exemption to Extended rotation are amusing...
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
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