You just need to be able to draw more cards than the rest of the decks. It's only a matter of time before they print draw spells stronger than Glimmer, but weaker than Dig Through Time. Azcanta is more suited to prison-style gameplay, but it's a perfect example of how they're starting to trend towards stronger draw engines.
For what it's worth Gabriel Nassif and Guillaume Matignon were saying on Nassif's stream that MrCafouillette is NOT Wafo, but a friend of his named Erwan Maisonueve.
Quote from Guillaume Mantignon »
Basic idea comes from Waffles yes, but the poor implementation is all Erwan's. Imean Nihil Spellbombs MD, Wafo wouldn't do that
Granted, the last GP list from Wafo was basically the same as the MrCafouillette lists.
I strongly disagree. Fatal Push is amazing. Card is even seeing Vintage play and I play it in Legacy. Runed Halo is a not really a very good substitute as it's not able to be snapped back. Esper has always run 5-6 spot removal spells. Death's Shadow, Eldrazi, Elves, Affinity and Merfolk are still a huge menace. Yes have the sweepers, but against Death's Shadow and Eldrazi when they rip your hand apart or Elves, Affinity, or Merfolk if you don't get rid of their key cards (i.e. Lords, Arcbounds, Inkmoths) and you are just going to Supreme Verdict on 4, you might be dead before you can. Or even worse, You go to Supreme Verdict and they Collected or Chord a grab Selfish Spirit.
Perhaps you only have been playing this deck for a short time, but the original versions only had 4 spot removal spells. When Spell Snare became defunct people started looking for alternatives, and eventually Fatal Push came out and became a new Standard.
The thing about those swarm decks you named is that you basically have to Verdict to win the game. Path and Fatal Push are just speed bumps; they buy you time to find the sweeper that you need. If you run additional cantrips in the Spell Snare slots, you set yourself up to dig 2-3 cards deeper when you draw Serum Visions or Opt. This is why I said that Humans specifically is the deck that call for Push, since they can easily stop your Verdict with Meddling Mage and Freebooter (sp?). Think of it this way: if you Push a random Grizzly Bear from one of these decks on turn 2 and cast Verdict on 4, your Push was basically gaining 4-6 life. You could arguably maindeck Timely Reinforcements before Push in a lot of matchups.
At any rate, the main reason I cut them for Runed Halo was because Halo is far better against Death's Shadow and Eldrazi. And all of the combo matchups we actually have a problem with. Of course now, no one knows what they're doing in Modern and people are playing all sorts of nonsense. The same logic for maindeck Halo may not apply anymore.
I see a lot of lists main decking some copies of Fatal Push. Has it always been worth it?
I cut them all together a while back and ran 2 Runed Halo in their place. Humans is about the only reason I think you need more than 4 spot removal spells.
I certainly agree that typical builds of this deck are not the place to play opt.
My experience with search has actually been that it's nuts. Like, I've lost less than 5% of matches where I got it flipped and it wasn't immediately ghost quartered or something, and in my book if it fixes 1-3 draws then turns into an extra basic it more than pulled its weight. I certainly found it to be better in postboard games--things are naturally slower most of the time, and the cards you find are higher-impact. One thing I have noticed--if you have any other mana sink available, I'd rather use it before azcanta unless I'm digging for a particular spell. The exception being a blue mirror in which you don't want to commit actual cards to the stack obviously.
I don't tens to think of company matchups as bad, just not favorable (if only slightly). What I hate about company decks is that they get so much of their strength from all these dorky green card advantage spells, yet they get to bring in all sorts of crap like rhonas and pharika in games 2/3 and there isn't a ton we can do.
I really really really want containment priest in modern for so many reasons.
100% agree on Search. I only recently was able to start playing again, but the card's been great, so far. The card is only good in a grindy matchup, but somehow Modern turned into a slogfest overnight. I haven't really ran into issues with it being killed (except by Blood Moon), and it seems almost impossible to lose lategame once it flips.
In regards to the Collected Company matchup, my solution to actually make it favorable was Night of Souls' Betrayal. Blanks Lingering Souls, anything in a Collected Company deck, Affinity, etc. I definitely got a Game 1 rage quit on MODO 2 days ago by a Mardu Pyromancer/Souls deck. Normally the drawback is that you want 14 B sources, but in this case you would have as much if you were running Field of Ruin. Not sure why you haven't made the switch, but I urge you to try it. I think Ghost Quarter might be strictly worse at this point.
Seems like it relies kind of heavily on opponents scooping after getting ultimatum-ed once or twice.
In paper, I feel like I'd want something else, atleast the 4th tarpit, etc.
The cruel lists I've played in the past usually played bolts/tasigurs in some numbers, as well.
Is nihil spellbomb a worthy metacall online right now?
Grixis shadow seems totally beatable without it, and dredge is pretty unpopular right now to my knowledge.
Maybe I'll try playing cruel again one of these days, as it might benefit from search/opt enough to be real.
I've been trying Remand recently, and was considering putting a 1-of Shadow of Doubt maindeck; I hadn't considered Spellbomb.
I think MTGO is random as hell right now, with Death's Shadow and Eldrazi dying down. Out of the last 20 or so games I recorded, there's been 1 Death's Shadow but 6 Thalia decks of different flavors. That's on top of 4 Blood Moon decks, so I'd say that the format is heavy on prison archetypes that don't give a damn about Spellbomb. By the time the GP comes around it could all have changed, and it's probably not happening the same on paper, anyway.
Right - I mean the scenario here was I said too much draw is bad vs aggressive decks and gave the example of t2 tt into t3 charm; I meant draw mode but someone assumed discard mode and that ypu could actually be gaining 6-7 effective life with a t3 charm discard vs burn.
That would be early game and vs a deck that plays to the board, so more often than not a t3 mind rot vs burn is going to strip 1-2 dead cards while you continue eating guide/swift/eidolon damage as you cantrip.
I would hope nobody thinks chaining cantrips early on is a good thing vs aggressive decks, but esp not vs burn where so much dmg will come in the form of spells later on. Fighting lava spikes and skulcracks with cryptic commands is horrific enough without spotting them 6 free damage off their dudes in the first 3 turns because you were cantripping instead of casting paths or knots to stem the bleeding.
Using Burn, which will always be one of the worst matchups for any Control deck, as an example is a bit pointless. Burn doesn't really "play to the board", and strategically it has more in common with Storm than an aggro deck. Killing the 1-drops is crucial, but the game is won and lost by the density of spells they manage to play.
But yeah, the matchup is horrible. I used to find that post-board games where I drew Vendilion Clique felt favorable, but I recently cut the card form my list and without pressure, leyline, etc., you're basically stuck hoping they draw like garbage. I don't know that any sideboard configuration is going to swing it enough to make up for the 20/80 game 1 percentage, which is why I don't bother much with sideboard hate.
Re esper charm vs burn you will actually get a land and a searing blaze more often than not on turn 3.
And that in a nutshell is what I struggle with when it comes to mind rotting. Our deck strands removal in their hand that they then pitch to charn. Savvy opponents will also sandbag lands to discard if they can afford to.
I think I Mind Rot less often than most; if your opponent is playing a deck that has removal in the first place they're probably trying to win with creatures and I would normally just draw 2. Maybe a better way to put it is: an opponent playing to the board normally means you want to draw into Verdict and Path. Combo decks tend to have more valuable cards left in their hand which is where Mind Rot can become a blowout. Blue decks are a mixed bag depending on whether they're trading cards aggressively and you're hitting land drops, but in general you draw early and Mind Rot later.
Against decks playing creatures, I normally only Mind Rot if:
1) My hand is stacked with card draw
2) I'm about to cast Verdict and want them to untap with no hand
or
3) The game's won and I want to end it with Colonnade, but I know they're holding Pushes or Paths
Esper charm on t3 against burn will potentially gain you 6-8 life, if you choose discard mode.
@Cipher - I’m convinced you either play in a mostly-casual LGS setting or get groundpounded by spikes in half your rounds while playing scrubs the remainder. You just present the most trivial points to the thread. Cody articulated a way to power through the monotonous decision chains in MUs like Jund or Control.
Honestly, Control mirrors shouldn’t be that hard. You have Esper charm, nuke their hand until you’re able to resolve a bomb. /thread
Edit: I want to apologize in advance here, this was brash and really uncalled for. I don’t always think about the game from the perspective of someone not as entrenched in the game theory as myself. Leaving original comment for sake of transparency.
If I recall, you first came onto this thread and started a flame war, so I won't take your comment too seriously.
Honestly, Control mirrors shouldn’t be that hard. You have Esper charm, nuke their hand until you’re able to resolve a bomb. /thread
Yes, thank you for your insightful, non-trivial commentary.
@Cipher - I’m convinced you either play in a mostly-casual LGS setting or get groundpounded by spikes in half your rounds while playing scrubs the remainder.
No, I only play online and in large paper tournaments when they come to my area. Both are going to be more competitive than whatever FNM you're playing in.
In complete agreement on virtually every point here, Cody. I've been playing Control and Midrange decks for almost 10 years now, and I've been playing them with my best friend/partner the entire time - for most of the last 18 months, he's been on Modern Jund and I was on Esper.
Every decision you make has the chance to be impactful because of the overall power level of Modern. Feeling when something is bait, when something is a last-ditch effort, or when something is immensely crucial - that comes from knowing both your deck and the opponent's deck intimately.
When you have played Uxx control for long enough, you know how to approach the grindy games. You know how to approach the aggro games. You know how to approach the combo games.
Just like Amalek says in the primer, knowing when to choose Mind Rot for Esper Charm is a huge part of mastering this deck - and it's one decision that can't be overvalued, because Mind Rot will singlehandedly win you some games while being completely irrelevant in others. Especially against a competent opponent who will save his most powerful spells for after you've depleted your resources battling his low-cost threats.
You should know what spells you can't afford to let resolve, what creatures can hit you a few times before you get worried, when it's safe to tap all the way out for Rev/Zenith and when you should leave up UU for Logic Knot - if you've played this deck for more than a handful of matches, you should just KNOW how you play against the top tiers and only adjust your gameplay when new data is presented.
Y'all are really laying a beating on Mr. Strawman...poor guy.
My response was to the guy talking about Control mirrors. I said game 1 of Control mirrors in Modern where someone doesn't scoop game 1 have a tendency to go to time, so a sideboard mill package is ill-advised. But if you really feel the need to go on about how you don't think when you play against Jund decks, by all means...
That's the fundamental problem with a curve counterspell deck. It works 50% of the time and that's why it can feel like you're 50/50 against most decks. Torrential Gearhulk decks in Standard are the same way. Spell Snare used to be great against everything except Tron, which is why it was a 4-of, and it helped keep the dream alive.
The problem is spell-based decks and dead removal, since we already have Supreme Verdict to wipe out the positional advantage we lose early to creature decks.
Every last black deck in modern starts with 4 discard spells main, we're a black deck... should we play discard spells?
Just because we share a base color with these decks does not mean we share a game plan.
My point was just that you end up insulating yourself from scrutiny and therefore growth when you tell yourself that your deck's special. It may very well be, and Serum Visions may be a poor choice, but I wouldn't use a vague notion of having a different gameplan to justify it. With 2 Azcanta, 1 Jace, and 1 Revelation, I'd argue that UW Control has as much card draw potential as the original list at this point. No reason to write off the innovations that you see elsewhere in the format's Control decks.
On a different note,
I see this pop up every now and then, that people sometimes struggle with closing out games in time/finishing in the ~50 minutes. Obviously sometimes your opponent will just play agonizingly slowly and there isn't anything you can do about that, but in the other games this applies.
This originally came about for improving at real-time games (and not turned based games), but I feel this does apply when time is a concern in magic.
When you're playing a game, you should aim to make decisions quickly. Keep track of the decisions you make, and get a feeling on the outcomes.
After the game (and really, any time outside of a game), think about how to decisions you're making are impacting the outcome of your games. Think about the decision points in the games that you really struggled with, or where your initial reaction was wrong.
Next time you play a game, try to implement those changes in theory, and re-evaluate.
Assuming we're talking specifically about Control mirrors, I don't personally do that. I limit the amount of time I spend tanking if the matchup is a slow one, but I would never want to become the type of player that doesn't identify all of the different lines. I can see using instinct to decide between 2 similar EV plays, but I'm always going to evaluate changes in mana and what my next 2-3 turns could look like. I also think it's important to distinguish between evaluation (identifying the lines) and decision making.
Speed-playing the Control mirror from turn 1 is probably effective, especially if the other guy feels pressured to keep pace with you. A friend of mine played Todd Anderson in a UB Drownyard mirror a few years back and basically let the guy walk all over him. He felt Todd was main-phase Drownyarding and asking him to play faster just to discourage him from doing anything on his end step. It's an extreme example, but you may be doing it to others at some level without realizing it.
I'm still playing 26. I think for the original build of the deck, 26 is still correct. Some people have moved on from that, and their land counts have changed, but 26 is only antiquated if the original 30-ish is antiquated, which may be arguable, but is certainly not fact.
No, this isn't the type of game where anything is a "fact". Every last blue deck in Modern starts with 4 1-mana cantrips, so there's not even a comparison to make. And blue decks have actually made a comeback in Modern.
Hey all, I've been reading a lot of the posts from this thread and have always wanted to play a pure control deck in modern, I was hoping I could get some feedback on the first draft i've made of esper Draw-Go https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/841718
some things to address:
I'm not playing celestial colonnade or any other man lands because I wanted to try shaving out almost all win cons to make the deck run as smoothly as possible. (including lands)
I have no idea how good Search for Azcanta is, I just feel with this build the game is going to go extremely long and it can flip reasonably effectively
I'm playing white sun's zenith for the same reason as Azcanta, in a longer game I think it is better than secure the wastes
The nephalia drownyard in the side is my silver bullet for my meta game which is heavily control.
Any help is greatly appreciated.
Playing no Colonnades whatsoever might make sense if you're seriously expecting to play mono control mirrors most tournaments, but that seems a bit hard to believe.
Drownyard is no good if the Control mirrors you're facing are UW control. They're going to just hit it with Field of Ruin, especially if you've got no Colonnades. If you're playing on paper, I'd hate to have a sideboard plan of milling them out games 2 & 3, since losing game 1 would basically mean forfeiting the match. Online this isn't an issue, but finishing 3 games has always been a challenge for me on paper. Normally it involves someone scooping game 1 when they know need to close 2 games quickly. If your metagame is all Control I would consider maindecking a trump card. Maybe Elixir of Immortality or Perpetual Timepiece. Hell, if you have so many Control Mirrors that your doing crazy sh*t like cutting Colonnades, you might even maindeck a Psychic Spiral and just troll everybody. Jace, Memory Adept is almost as troll, but a bit more relevant in other matchups.
Why do you have 3 Relics? In general that's a terrible card to bring in just for value's sake. If graveyard hate completely shuts down a deck, you want RIP; if it's just an incremental value card then it probably doesn't belong in a sideboard. Surgical is also another option if the target is something like Storm or Dredge, though Dredge is better solved by Settle the Wreckage and Storm by Rule of Law.
Also, I'm sure someone else will chime in on this, but less than 4 Esper Charms is blasphemous. I'd suggest Think Twice a the cut before Esper Charm. Search flipping Think Twice isn't something to write home about, especially if casting that Think Twice is going to put you another turn of flipping Search, thereby trading 3 mana for a random card now, instead of 3 mana for an Impulse later.
Granted, the last GP list from Wafo was basically the same as the MrCafouillette lists.
The thing about those swarm decks you named is that you basically have to Verdict to win the game. Path and Fatal Push are just speed bumps; they buy you time to find the sweeper that you need. If you run additional cantrips in the Spell Snare slots, you set yourself up to dig 2-3 cards deeper when you draw Serum Visions or Opt. This is why I said that Humans specifically is the deck that call for Push, since they can easily stop your Verdict with Meddling Mage and Freebooter (sp?). Think of it this way: if you Push a random Grizzly Bear from one of these decks on turn 2 and cast Verdict on 4, your Push was basically gaining 4-6 life. You could arguably maindeck Timely Reinforcements before Push in a lot of matchups.
At any rate, the main reason I cut them for Runed Halo was because Halo is far better against Death's Shadow and Eldrazi. And all of the combo matchups we actually have a problem with. Of course now, no one knows what they're doing in Modern and people are playing all sorts of nonsense. The same logic for maindeck Halo may not apply anymore.
In regards to the Collected Company matchup, my solution to actually make it favorable was Night of Souls' Betrayal. Blanks Lingering Souls, anything in a Collected Company deck, Affinity, etc. I definitely got a Game 1 rage quit on MODO 2 days ago by a Mardu Pyromancer/Souls deck. Normally the drawback is that you want 14 B sources, but in this case you would have as much if you were running Field of Ruin. Not sure why you haven't made the switch, but I urge you to try it. I think Ghost Quarter might be strictly worse at this point.
I've been trying Remand recently, and was considering putting a 1-of Shadow of Doubt maindeck; I hadn't considered Spellbomb.
I think MTGO is random as hell right now, with Death's Shadow and Eldrazi dying down. Out of the last 20 or so games I recorded, there's been 1 Death's Shadow but 6 Thalia decks of different flavors. That's on top of 4 Blood Moon decks, so I'd say that the format is heavy on prison archetypes that don't give a damn about Spellbomb. By the time the GP comes around it could all have changed, and it's probably not happening the same on paper, anyway.
But yeah, the matchup is horrible. I used to find that post-board games where I drew Vendilion Clique felt favorable, but I recently cut the card form my list and without pressure, leyline, etc., you're basically stuck hoping they draw like garbage. I don't know that any sideboard configuration is going to swing it enough to make up for the 20/80 game 1 percentage, which is why I don't bother much with sideboard hate.
Against decks playing creatures, I normally only Mind Rot if:
1) My hand is stacked with card draw
2) I'm about to cast Verdict and want them to untap with no hand
or
3) The game's won and I want to end it with Colonnade, but I know they're holding Pushes or Paths
Yes, thank you for your insightful, non-trivial commentary.
No, I only play online and in large paper tournaments when they come to my area. Both are going to be more competitive than whatever FNM you're playing in.
My response was to the guy talking about Control mirrors. I said game 1 of Control mirrors in Modern where someone doesn't scoop game 1 have a tendency to go to time, so a sideboard mill package is ill-advised. But if you really feel the need to go on about how you don't think when you play against Jund decks, by all means...
The problem is spell-based decks and dead removal, since we already have Supreme Verdict to wipe out the positional advantage we lose early to creature decks.
Assuming we're talking specifically about Control mirrors, I don't personally do that. I limit the amount of time I spend tanking if the matchup is a slow one, but I would never want to become the type of player that doesn't identify all of the different lines. I can see using instinct to decide between 2 similar EV plays, but I'm always going to evaluate changes in mana and what my next 2-3 turns could look like. I also think it's important to distinguish between evaluation (identifying the lines) and decision making.
Speed-playing the Control mirror from turn 1 is probably effective, especially if the other guy feels pressured to keep pace with you. A friend of mine played Todd Anderson in a UB Drownyard mirror a few years back and basically let the guy walk all over him. He felt Todd was main-phase Drownyarding and asking him to play faster just to discourage him from doing anything on his end step. It's an extreme example, but you may be doing it to others at some level without realizing it.
Drownyard is no good if the Control mirrors you're facing are UW control. They're going to just hit it with Field of Ruin, especially if you've got no Colonnades. If you're playing on paper, I'd hate to have a sideboard plan of milling them out games 2 & 3, since losing game 1 would basically mean forfeiting the match. Online this isn't an issue, but finishing 3 games has always been a challenge for me on paper. Normally it involves someone scooping game 1 when they know need to close 2 games quickly. If your metagame is all Control I would consider maindecking a trump card. Maybe Elixir of Immortality or Perpetual Timepiece. Hell, if you have so many Control Mirrors that your doing crazy sh*t like cutting Colonnades, you might even maindeck a Psychic Spiral and just troll everybody. Jace, Memory Adept is almost as troll, but a bit more relevant in other matchups.
Why do you have 3 Relics? In general that's a terrible card to bring in just for value's sake. If graveyard hate completely shuts down a deck, you want RIP; if it's just an incremental value card then it probably doesn't belong in a sideboard. Surgical is also another option if the target is something like Storm or Dredge, though Dredge is better solved by Settle the Wreckage and Storm by Rule of Law.
Also, I'm sure someone else will chime in on this, but less than 4 Esper Charms is blasphemous. I'd suggest Think Twice a the cut before Esper Charm. Search flipping Think Twice isn't something to write home about, especially if casting that Think Twice is going to put you another turn of flipping Search, thereby trading 3 mana for a random card now, instead of 3 mana for an Impulse later.