So I was thinking about a bant list as I totally love bant and I looked into it and to be honest the more I think about him the more of a house Rhox War Monk seems like he would be in pauper. His lifegain is huge the body of a 3/4 in pauper kills a lot of stuff. I wanted to run it a little as an exault style of list and some control as well. I even have some FNM copies of him laying about so I can pimp the list up with those.
Well... that list was a lot harder for me to make. I started out really creature heavy and decided that I wanted to cut them back to just utility, and ramp mainly for my other creatures.
I am focusing on sort of a voltron strategy with my war monk. I am running equipment, exault / pump creatures, auras for evasion / pump and I just sort of plan on beating some lifegaining face in with him.
I tried to keep some good control to the list yet though. There are far too many all in style of pauper decks that just crumble to the first Arrest that comes along.
Ya I would love to see your list. I considered them for a bit but thought they might be overcosted for a commander.
As for Resounding Silence... I dont know it is alright... I like its versatility as I can use it as a 4 mana kill spell or later on I can get a bigger value out of it.
I was pleased by its work last time I was able to use it.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Thanks for posting your list it gave me some good ideas. Obviously as your commander is designed for operating differently you have more strictly beater type of creatures in your list. I will probably opt to keep them out to keep my card draw and utility high utilizing him as my primary wincon.
Some changes going forward, direct transfers between cards first followed by some just sort of general changes:
Flayer Husk -> Strider Harness I dont really need the random body that the husk provides. I still have Bonesplitter as an option for the Trinket Mage package so I dont really need the Husk as between the two I just dont see needing the defense as much as wanting +2/+0. Changing it to the Harness picks me up haste for the same equip cost. It costs more to drop it in and is not a trinket mage target however I dont think that is as big of a deal.
Resounding Silence -> Second Thoughts generally speaking when I need to kill something the difference between killing one and two targets isnt huge. Generally speaking there is one big monster coming down the pipe and I like the fact that it draws a card for only one more mana. I sort of go back and forth on this one however I think I will try Second Thoughts for now. I like Resounding Silence's ability to escalate and be difficult to be countered however this is multiplayer pauper EDH. I don't see a whole lot of counter heavy decks.
Train of Thought -> Rush of Knowledge Train of Thought is a pain in the ass due to the blue commitment. I have a good number of permanents in here that I think swapping it for Rush of Knowledge is fine. I should probably draw a minimum of 3 cards off of it I think in here.
CUTS:
1 Muddle the Mixture I figure just drawing more cards is plenty good enough. I dont have much vital targets at 2 mana anyways. If it was more of a Negate on its countering I would like it more but instant / sorcery is a bit narrow.
1 Moment's Peace sort of a stall tactic but usually I would rather just have a ramp / draw spell. I figure if I can keep drawing cards and moving along I dont need this sort of stuff. Due to the lifegain on my commander I think I will only have to worry about really big swarm style of tokens and perhaps flying commanders. Hopefully I draw some removal / lockout to just lock that stuff down or kill them first.
1 Frontline Sage he was sort of supposed to be multipurpose in pumping my commander and looting for me however I think I am better off with some of the draw / the new equipment I am adding instead.
1 Elven Cache I went with a ramp spell instead. This is prone to graveyard hate and at 4 mana to cast I felt it was a bit clunky. I don't like Regrowth in regular EDH much so I don't know what I was really thinking here...
1 Arcane Denial sort of a singleton counter is hard to utilize. I figured I would cut it as the only time I think it is really needed in pauper is against buyback spells but I haven't even had that big of an issue with them as you can often try to just push past them or remove their target in response.
ADDS:
1 Shelter really sort of an amazing multipurpose card. I can use it to swing in past blockers or I can use it to shrug off auras from opponents. This is a great tech way of shrugging an Arrest or busting off someone else's positive aura. I really like the built in card draw on it too so I don't feel too bad including it.
1 Divination simple, cheap, efficient good card draw / card advantage. It isn't the flashiest thing out there but it does it cheap which I like.
1 Flight of Fancy I actually didn't know about this one until I saw your list mamba. I need evasion for my commander and I am willing to pay one extra above Divination to strap flying onto my commander. Hopefully it doesnt backfire into a Doom Blade but unless I have some repeated issues with that I am willing to give it a shot. Looks promising.
1 Opaline Bracers I totally spaced that this is a +3/+3 buff in here. That should make for some great face smashing good times. It is a bit spendy however I think it is worth the sizable buff.
1 Rampant Growth more ramp. I was looking a bit low on mine. I might even need to consider 1-2 more but I figure I will just add this one for now. I dont have that much high end stuff but it helps to get there faster and for chaining multiple spells together in a turn.
Well that should be all of my changes for now... Hopefully all of them are for the best but I cant think of a time I have been disappointed by drawing more cards so that should be nice.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Ok I got a few 1v1 games in last night against one of my buddies. I love War Monk as a pauper commander he is an absolute house. I am a bit worried that I might have overdone it on the auras and enchants but for now I will leave them be until I get more testing in. Some changes that I am going for though:
CUTS:
- Crimson Acolyte when he is good he is great but unfortunately if I am not playing against red he is totally suck ass. If we would allow sideboards he would go in for sure but for now I dont think he is good enough to be in. If I were running a mono W deck I think he is good enough then probably but I was not excited when I drew him against mono W.
- Obsidian Acolyte same reason as above.
ADDS:
+ Blinding Mage tappers are monsters at shutting out opposing voltron decks. I got shut down by one of them for most of the game last night. The reason I am picking these two tappers is because they have 2 defense. We are seeing a lot more pinging creatures in our meta to deal with token decks and utility creatures in general. This selection gives them a bit more defense against these pesky guys.
+ Master Decoy same as above.
Going forward I need to watch the amount of buffs I have and if they are all needed. I also wouldn't mind adding a little more control to the list so there is a chance I might drop one or two of the buff enchants for more control. We will see I suppose. I need to get some multiplayer games in before I decide much more though. The Acolytes just sort of stood out as needing to be cut so I am going forward with that first.
Ok, I had some problems with people blowing up my War Monk as I was trying to attach auras onto him... I think I am going to dumb down my auras some as it really wasnt working well. I did make it to like 24 lands in play and I payed 17 mana for the last cast of him. Still I was thinking of doing something sort of like this:
ADDS: Frontline Sage gives me a nice exault bonus as well as giving me some filtering power.
Waveskimmer Aven another exault bonus as well as a flying blocker. 2/4 is a solid creature for the skies.
The third card I am sort of rolling about a bit. I was thinking of a few different things, possibly some sort of elf tribal assistance, possibly another control spell. I wouldn't mind some mana dump if I can find another valuable option. I was also considering more looting abilities such as Merfolk Looter to filter off some of the later game lands.
I'm a friend of Miffed Moogle; he has got me involved in Pauper EDH and he says he has colaborated with you to tweak some of his decks for the format.
Firstly, the format sounds and looks great; Kudos if you came up with it.
I was designing a bant list myself as my first deck; colours seemed strong and the enchantments were fantastic. Here are some suggestions for yours:
1. Armadillo Cloak - Broken @ common, works with your lifelink strat with Rhox war monk
2. Treetop Bracers - Good evasion effect and handy to make some damage stick
3. Hobble - Not the best removal, but effective card draw.
4. Journey to Nowhere - 2 mana creature removal in white - rare.
5. Nacatl War Pride - Great Finisher
6. Suture Priest - Easy life and dmg.
7. Advanced Hoverguard/Aven fleetwing/Glimmering Angel - Decent flyers with a shroud effect.
8. Temporal Spring - Undercosted and effective, so undercosted it's cropping up in legacy decks as a mini Time walk.
All I have at the moment. Your list looks great, I like the feel of it. I'm going to post up my own Grixis Affinity List i've been working on, I'd love your thoughts on that.
1. Armadillo Cloak I originally forgot that this gives trample as well as the +2/+2. I will have to think about it but I have been having a lot of problems with the auras of late because I keep getting my commander blown up every time I try to strap them onto him.
2. Treetop Bracers the auras havent been working of late and I am trying to cut back on them. I dont feel like this is better than what I have been using so probably not.
3. Hobble I considered it early on but I am one of the few who uses an agro type of commander. Most everyone else is running utility commanders who dont swing in. It can help stop some of the big beaters but it hasnt been too much of an issue so far. We will see in the future though.
4. Journey to Nowhere I like things that lock creatures in play so I can use them on their commanders. Arrest style that lock them from being used are primarily what I use. This is an option though for more removal.
5. Nacatl War Pride he is an uncommon but I think he would make for an interesting commander. He would work well at murdering token decks for sure.
6. Suture Priest decent utility creature but I already have most of my lifegain worked out by my commander. It does work to leach life off of opponents a bit but honestly I do a lot of my killing through the 21 commander damage. I would rather a utility creature over this.
7. Advanced Hoverguard / Aven fleetwing / Glimmering Angel Generally speaking I dont run these sort of small flying hexproof guys because they just dont do much. If I were to add extra beaters in an attempt to do more damage to opponents it would likely be big fatty ones like Ulamog's Crusher and Rootbreaker Wurm. I will look into adding a few extra wincon options though as I have had some issues focusing soley on my commander from time to time.
8. Temporal Spring you know.... I might just run this one. I have been considering doing some tucking effects and this would probably be the first add to do those. I might add it in.
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Some other things, I have noticed I have too much land / ramp and not enough ways to use it up. I think I will do a little bit of trimming it back as I am just drawing lands and ramp wayyyyy late into the game.
CUTS:
-1 Island I have been drawing way too much land. I dont want to jump down too far too fast so I will start by cutting a single land.
- Rampant Growth I have been getting too much land and ramp and I am not huge on this ramp spell. It gets me the land I need but that is about all I can say about it.
ADDS:
+ Train of Thought I need mana dumps and this is a great mana dump. It can also be a smaller scale draw 2 or 3 cards if need be. + Temporal Spring sort of a removal / tucking option. I will give it a shot and see how it goes.
For now I am sort of back to contemplating what I want to do with the auras again. I will keep the 2 big ones that I had been considering cutting earlier for more testing. I swapped the Asha's Favor out for Frontline Sage though. I will keep an eye on them.
EDIT: hummm I thought Temporal Spring was an instant... I might have to go back on that one already... I think I will try Banishment Decree or Repel for what I was trying to do... I think I will go ahead and swap it for Banishment Decree. I think that Temporal Spring is really cool for 1v1 as you can bounce a land to the top of their library which is brutal but for multiplayer I need instant speed options.
EDIT 2: I cut a Plains instead of an Island as I realized that card draw was more important for this deck than the removal. Man I am really fumbling these changes up this morning.
Divination -> Theft of Dreams Hopefully this gives me a bigger draw effect. I should almost always be able to get at least 2-3 cards from something like this.
Skyshroud Claim -> Merfolk Looter I just need a little more filter. I will see if this works at all for me but I dont know...
I have been considering pulling out just a few lands as well... it seems like I keep getting swamped by them. It might just be too much ramp though as well. I will have to do more playtesting. It has been a while since I played this list.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I would recommend Gideon's Lawkeeper over Blinding Mage. Comes down on turn 1.
I would except that my group plays sort of a decent concentration of pinging creatures. One toughness utility guys tend to get picked off a lot faster from these pingers. Due to that I moved to playing the 1/2 options even though they are a little slower. I generally find that I don't really need the one faster mana though.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I am a bit behind on updating my pauper lists for AVR's changes so I suppose I will do a set review for this list as well:
Abundant Growth mass mana fix and it cantrips... seems solid especially with how little pinpoint LD is run in pauper.
Amass the Components it seems like a decent draw card. I could see myself using it...
Elgaud Shieldmate pure pauper gold. Any deck that relies on its commander is going to be packing this and I am glad I am in the right colors to do so. It cant be targeted either and it gives hexproof so I can still drop buffs on both of them.
Ghostly Flicker sort of a bit like a ghostway but I like the fact that I can flicker artifacts as well to protect them... could be solid.
Gryff Vanguard a decent cantrip creature that can actually do some damage / trade in combat seems great to me.
Havengul Skaab it gives me a nice bounce option which can get my commander out of enchantment based lockdown or set up an ETB guy to trigger again for me. I sort of like it.
Well... I dont see much else worth mentioning for this list. As for changes...
Banishment Decree -> Elgaud Shieldmate the Decree didnt work that often and to be honest I didnt see as many of my opponents that I could even use this on that made if feel that great...
Elvish Visionary -> Gryff Vanguard as much as I like the Visionary I dont feel like he does much for the deck. The new flyer on the other hand can do a bit of dmg on its own and trade with other cards. I feel like the visionary is a road bump for attackers and thats about it. Hopefully this will be a good swap.
Citanul Woodreaders -> Havengul Skaab the woodreaders are sort of bad card draw that cant be easily flickered for more cards and costs a ton of mana to use. The Skaab on the otherhand is a decent fighting force that can get me out of some lockdown auras and abuse ETB creatures.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I have put in like 3-4 games lately with my War Monk and had a few changes I wanted to make of which some were just due to some new card options and some were with changes I wanted to make. I almost beat someone using my pauper deck against their non pauper deck.
CUTS: Merfolk Looter I am simply replacing it with Frontline Sage improved looter in the fact that he buffs my commander. Having him cost a mana to loot and costing one more with worse stats sucks but whatev. Farhaven Elf I just havent been impressed by him in here. To be totally honest I dont find the need to ramp much in pauper. I don't have big mana sinks in here and not much for big mana stuff. Krosan Tusker he has been sort of meh so far. The land drops are ok but I just havent been all that impressed overall. Second Thoughts I replaced this somewhat with Provoke and Prey Upon. It wasn't half bad but often I need to take out blockers or utility creatures. It doesn't work on non attacking creatures or shroud / hexproof creatures. Evolution Charm I dont care much for it as a ramp effect so that leaves it as sort of just a creature recover or some sort of bad utility. Train of Thought It is good but I rarely liked to tap out for it. I decided that Insight often digs as deep for much cheaper and at instant speed if I like. Sure I dont get the entire hand buff but for the cheaper mana and instant speed I sort of like the swap. Asha's Favor it is a good buff but I have been trying to reduce the amount of cards I loose when someone answers my commander. Theft of Dreams the big downside here is that it is totally dependant on my opponents. Overall I came down to the fact that Keep Watch is mostly just a better version of this. I can cast Keep Watch off my own stuff and I can tutor into it easier. I get to draw cards before creatures die in combat as well making me think that it is probably the better of the two. Blinding Mage I like him but in the end I felt like replacing him with some sort of combination of Mind Games or the blue tutors was a better replacement for the deck. I still have a tapping creature and now I have a tap instant and 2 additional tutors that can in some way tutor into the other tapper effects. Desert I have been feeling a little flooded on my mana of late and colorless land can be an issue. I wanted to cut back a land and a colorless one with very small utility seems like a good axe from a 3 color color intensive commander like this.
ADDS: Frontline Sage Loot effect and a buff. He has a few uses and can be useful to ditch excess lands later on. Archaeomancer I like how versatile he is for his recover effect. With the addition of Ghostly Flicker he can also be used as sort of a value engine as well. Prey Upon Good utility removal effect. I am sort of surprised I didnt think of it earlier. War Monk is more powerful from the get go than most utility and other commanders. This gives me a nice removal effect especially if I pick up some protection effect or whatever. Mind Games a nice reusable control effect. I often find that I have more lands than I need later in the game. This gives me a good difficult to deal with control outlet. Impulse fast deep dig that is cheap. Generally I just need somewhat of a deep dig rather than drawing all 4 of the topcards. Muddle the Mixture another tutor. I am increasing my toolbox for it a bit as well currently. I realized that for my token defense I am mostly at Echoing Truth for my answer so having a tutor for that is nice. I can also go grab Merchant Scroll which can grab something else. As a side note, this counters most of the buyback spells out there which is nice too. Merchant Scroll another tutor toolbox. I can grab Muddle the Mixture at the worst so I like having both here to fix into whatever I need. Provoke a fun removal effect. I like how I can use this in someone else's turn to force a block that isn't good for them. Ghostly Flicker I have some decent ETB effects in here and with one of the spell recovery creatures I can turn this into sort of a sweet engine. Sure it is a bit getto but still it is nice to have a few engine setups in here. Preordain a fast dig / draw effect. Being cheap means I can quickly do it and move on to the next effect.
I like the idea with RWM as a Pauper general! I have a few comments though.
Questionable inclusions:
Coiling Oracle: There's nothing wrong with this card, however you mentioned 1 toughness being problematic in your area. Also you're not running Elvish Visionary and you've cut Farhaven Elf, so why would you play this card and not the others? More a question of internal logic in card selection than actual card quality.
Timberwatch Elf: This just seems to bad a pump effect for RWM. Guardians of Akrasa is probably too bad as well.
Horizon Spellbomb: This is one mana more for the same effect that Krosan Tusker provided, which you cut. And it's not a big beatstick when you need one either.
Sprout Swarm: I think this card is just too weak for its cost. YMMV.
Cards to consider: Wildheart Invoker: This is probably the best pump effect in Pauper. Untamed Might: I think you need good reason not to run this with a voltron general with lifelink. Wirewood Herald: Finds the Invoker and other elves you run. You actually want people to ping it Fierce Empath: If you swap Horizon Spellbomb for Krosan Tusker (I think it's just a better card) and run Havengul Skaab already, I'd include this and Maul Splicer. I run this in my UG Pauper deck and it's been a beating with Empath setting it all up by itself. I know it's not part of the voltron idea, but it's a more efficient token generator than Sprout Swarm at least.
Cards I found interesting:
Prey Upon: This is really solid removal that I had forgotton about. I rely on deathtouch and Viridian Longbow to kill dudes in my pauper deck, but I'm thinking it will fit right in. It would probably have to replace either Snake Form or Lignify though, and I'm not sure it beats the utility of those when it comes to handling dudes with nasty key words (I like to be able to play outside of Pauper with my deck and so feel the need to include answers to stuff like indestructible dudes). If you could only play this or Snake Form, which one would you choose?
Keep Watch: Instant speed card draw that could actually be good. Why haven't I seen this more in pauper EDH lists? How does it measure up compared to your other draw spells?
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I like the idea with RWM as a Pauper general! I have a few comments though.
Questionable inclusions:
Coiling Oracle: There's nothing wrong with this card, however you mentioned 1 toughness being problematic in your area. Also you're not running Elvish Visionary and you've cut Farhaven Elf, so why would you play this card and not the others? More a question of internal logic in card selection than actual card quality.
Timberwatch Elf: This just seems to bad a pump effect for RWM. Guardians of Akrasa is probably too bad as well.
Horizon Spellbomb: This is one mana more for the same effect that Krosan Tusker provided, which you cut. And it's not a big beatstick when you need one either.
Sprout Swarm: I think this card is just too weak for its cost. YMMV.
Cards to consider: Wildheart Invoker: This is probably the best pump effect in Pauper. Untamed Might: I think you need good reason not to run this with a voltron general with lifelink. Wirewood Herald: Finds the Invoker and other elves you run. You actually want people to ping it Fierce Empath: If you swap Horizon Spellbomb for Krosan Tusker (I think it's just a better card) and run Havengul Skaab already, I'd include this and Maul Splicer. I run this in my UG Pauper deck and it's been a beating with Empath setting it all up by itself. I know it's not part of the voltron idea, but it's a more efficient token generator than Sprout Swarm at least.
Cards I found interesting:
Prey Upon: This is really solid removal that I had forgotton about. I rely on deathtouch and Viridian Longbow to kill dudes in my pauper deck, but I'm thinking it will fit right in. It would probably have to replace either Snake Form or Lignify though, and I'm not sure it beats the utility of those when it comes to handling dudes with nasty key words (I like to be able to play outside of Pauper with my deck and so feel the need to include answers to stuff like indestructible dudes). If you could only play this or Snake Form, which one would you choose?
Keep Watch: Instant speed card draw that could actually be good. Why haven't I seen this more in pauper EDH lists? How does it measure up compared to your other draw spells?
Coiling Oracle Overall out of all of the draw one type of creatures I find this guy to be an upgrade over Elvish Visionary who was actually a card I wanted to make it in here in these last changes. Generally I find the oracle to be an upgrade though due to the possibility to ramp. Generally speaking I don't care if I show the card I draw here.
Timberwatch Elf I like that I can pump any target creature when I want with him. I agree though his buff does seem to be getting smaller as my elf package gets smaller. I had been sort of hanging onto him but it might be time to cut him. The Wildheart Invoker is an interesting call and I might give it a call in place of him.
Horizon Spellbomb I actually had not noticed that it costs less to draw with. However the big thing it has going for it is that it can fix my manabase when I don't have the green mana yet. On turn 2 I can pop it off and fix my landbase so that on turn 3 I hit my war monk into play. I think it is more versatile for what I need. It is good to notice though that the tusker is cheaper to use but for actual early game fixing it is good to have.
Guardians of Akrasa a 0/4 is actually very useful to dissuade opposing creatures. The fact that it is a buff for my commander and a low priority target is useful. Artifact / enchantment removal can be a real killer if that is where all of the buffs are located at. I have found that he tends not to be killed / destroyed outside of sweeper kill effects. Plus I run some decent utility effects like Wildsize that could be used on him to kill an opposing creature.
Sprout Swarm I am sort of in agreement here. It isnt really that big of a deal but I have some issues with opposing token decks so it had been a bit of my answer to opposing token decks.
Your suggestions:
Wildheart Invoker that is a nice effect... I might just replace the Timberwatch Elf with this guy because that is a really sick buff with a nice alternate wincon as well.
Untamed Might I like it but the lack of evasion on it worries me a bit. I have a lot of buffs that try to give power buffs that stick but the fact that this doesn't give any sustained power or evasion at least worries me a bit. It has some good potential but I might have to think it over yet.
Wirewood Herald I sort of feel like I need more targets for it to be included. Although, Wildheart Invoker is a sick target for him I sort of wonder if that is enough. The only other target currently would be the Coiling Oracle as I am swapping the invoker in for the Timberwatch Elf.
Fierce Empath I sort of feel like I need more targets for it to be included. I currently have one target for him and don't currently intend for more additions of targets.
Your Other Questions: Prey Upon I would probably run Snakeform instead of it however a 3/4 cheap commander really does set us aside so I think this is a really solid kill spell for the deck. I am really looking forward to seeing how it plays though as I haven't gotten any games with it in yet.
Keep Watch: it is really solid because they dont need to be attacking you. The more token style swarm decks you see the better it gets. Overall though it can totally suck but even if it does you can still usually get at least 2-3 draw off your own stuff even in a bad situation. In a token deck or against tokens / swarm it gets even better.
EDIT: Sorry I have a few updates I need to tag in here.
DECK CHANGES:
Cultivate -> Darksteel Ingot Cultivate / Kodama's Reach were mostly still in this deck to fix my colors in case I got screwed. However they require green to use them so I figured swapping them out for some colorless fixing might be solid. I don't tend to need tons of mana in this deck except when I am chaining several cards together but I would rather fix more consistently than ramp more.
Strider Harness -> Horned Helm swapping haste for trample. It is important to have evasion and as much as I love haste in EDH, pauper just isnt as fast to finish and I would rather smash through tokens and utility than have haste now and then.
Timberwatch Elf -> Wildheart Invoker a much bigger finisher as well as being a good solid threat on his own. I had seen someone use him before but for some reason never really thought about running him. I look forward to seeing how he pans out.
Sprout Swarm -> Krosan Vorine I had the swarm card to try to combat tokens however I just added a lot of new tutors to go grab my token bounce card so I think I might be able to cut this finally. I have wanted to test out this guy due to his cool provoke ability. With equipment / enchantments / and some nice pump / protect effects in this deck he could make for a nice addition as some removal.
I know its quite a thread necro, but do you still run this list, and if so, do you have any updates from RtR block, M14 and Theros?
I am looking to get into Pauper, and Bant is right up my alley.
--Evil
Its actually surprising that I caught your post as I dont normally come through here but noticed that a Rhox list got bumped and just thought it could be mine lol.
As to if I still play it, I do not. It worked incredibly well when I did play it though. The people in my meta gave up on pauper though after we played it for a few months. I really liked it but for some reason it just didn't stick as a whole.
As for updates.... I can outline some things that I might consider but I dont want to run through my list and actually make changes to it offhand.
Ethereal Armor it could be a very sizeable buff. It does sort of pull you into a heavier enchantment based build though.
Last Thoughts it could provide some decent card draw especially if you put on hexproof / shroud as well to cover and just run for a while.
Celestial Flare Hexproof and Shroud can be a huge issue especially against opposing Voltron commanders. This could be a nice pickup if you have issues with that sort of thing.
Hunt the Weak Its removal, its pump, and its lifegain (due to commander having lifelink). Its not cheap, and its not fast. But it does a lot. The more shroud you run though the worse it is.
Those are primarily the cards I saw that would possibly be worth consideration.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
It's too bad that it didn't keep going in your area. I wish Wizards would just let us make Pauper EDH a thing on MTGO
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So I was thinking about a bant list as I totally love bant and I looked into it and to be honest the more I think about him the more of a house Rhox War Monk seems like he would be in pauper. His lifegain is huge the body of a 3/4 in pauper kills a lot of stuff. I wanted to run it a little as an exault style of list and some control as well. I even have some FNM copies of him laying about so I can pimp the list up with those.
1 Rhox War Monk
CREATURE (20)
1 Coiling Oracle
1 Master Decoy
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Drift of Phantasms
1 Frontline Sage
1 Guardians of Akrasa
1 Sea Gate Oracle
1 Thornwind Faeries
1 Timberwatch Elf
1 Trinket Mage
1 Archaeomancer
1 Elgaud Shieldmate
1 Stinging Barrier
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Gryff Vanguard
1 Mnemonic Wall
1 Mulldrifter
1 Totem-Guide Hartebeest
1 Havengul Skaab
ARTIFACT (9)
1 Bonesplitter
1 Horizon Spellbomb
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Viridian Longbow
1 Kitesail
1 Prophetic Prism
1 Vulshok Morningstar
1 Strider Harness
1 Opaline Bracers
1 Rancor
1 Favor of the Overbeing
1 Night Soil
1 Arrest
1 Broken Fall
1 Fanatical Devotion
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Rhystic Study
1 Shield of the Oversoul
1 Shielding Plax
1 Faith's Fetters
1 Flight of Fancy
INSTANT (14)
1 Mind Games
1 Echoing Truth
1 Impulse
1 Momentary Blink
1 Muddle the Mixture
1 Provoke
1 Shelter
1 Sprout Swarm
1 Capsize
1 Dismantling Blow
1 Ghostly Flicker
1 Keep Watch
1 Snakeform
1 Wildsize
1 Preordain
1 Prey Upon
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Compulsive Research
1 Cultivate
1 Kodama's Reach
1 Deep Analysis
1 Foresee
1 Rush of Knowledge
LAND (35)
1 Azorius Chancery
1 Bant Panorama
1 Command Tower
1 Esper Panorama
1 Evolving Wilds
10 Forest
7 Island
1 Khalni Garden
1 Naya Panorama
6 Plains
1 Rupture Spire
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Selesnya Sanctuary
1 Simic Growth Chamber
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Yavimaya Elder
1 Farseek
1 Arachnus Web
Well... that list was a lot harder for me to make. I started out really creature heavy and decided that I wanted to cut them back to just utility, and ramp mainly for my other creatures.
I am focusing on sort of a voltron strategy with my war monk. I am running equipment, exault / pump creatures, auras for evasion / pump and I just sort of plan on beating some lifegaining face in with him.
I tried to keep some good control to the list yet though. There are far too many all in style of pauper decks that just crumble to the first Arrest that comes along.
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As for Resounding Silence... I dont know it is alright... I like its versatility as I can use it as a 4 mana kill spell or later on I can get a bigger value out of it.
I was pleased by its work last time I was able to use it.
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[Modern] Allies
Some changes going forward, direct transfers between cards first followed by some just sort of general changes:
Flayer Husk -> Strider Harness I dont really need the random body that the husk provides. I still have Bonesplitter as an option for the Trinket Mage package so I dont really need the Husk as between the two I just dont see needing the defense as much as wanting +2/+0. Changing it to the Harness picks me up haste for the same equip cost. It costs more to drop it in and is not a trinket mage target however I dont think that is as big of a deal.
Resounding Silence -> Second Thoughts generally speaking when I need to kill something the difference between killing one and two targets isnt huge. Generally speaking there is one big monster coming down the pipe and I like the fact that it draws a card for only one more mana. I sort of go back and forth on this one however I think I will try Second Thoughts for now. I like Resounding Silence's ability to escalate and be difficult to be countered however this is multiplayer pauper EDH. I don't see a whole lot of counter heavy decks.
Train of Thought -> Rush of Knowledge Train of Thought is a pain in the ass due to the blue commitment. I have a good number of permanents in here that I think swapping it for Rush of Knowledge is fine. I should probably draw a minimum of 3 cards off of it I think in here.
CUTS:
1 Muddle the Mixture I figure just drawing more cards is plenty good enough. I dont have much vital targets at 2 mana anyways. If it was more of a Negate on its countering I would like it more but instant / sorcery is a bit narrow.
1 Moment's Peace sort of a stall tactic but usually I would rather just have a ramp / draw spell. I figure if I can keep drawing cards and moving along I dont need this sort of stuff. Due to the lifegain on my commander I think I will only have to worry about really big swarm style of tokens and perhaps flying commanders. Hopefully I draw some removal / lockout to just lock that stuff down or kill them first.
1 Frontline Sage he was sort of supposed to be multipurpose in pumping my commander and looting for me however I think I am better off with some of the draw / the new equipment I am adding instead.
1 Elven Cache I went with a ramp spell instead. This is prone to graveyard hate and at 4 mana to cast I felt it was a bit clunky. I don't like Regrowth in regular EDH much so I don't know what I was really thinking here...
1 Arcane Denial sort of a singleton counter is hard to utilize. I figured I would cut it as the only time I think it is really needed in pauper is against buyback spells but I haven't even had that big of an issue with them as you can often try to just push past them or remove their target in response.
ADDS:
1 Shelter really sort of an amazing multipurpose card. I can use it to swing in past blockers or I can use it to shrug off auras from opponents. This is a great tech way of shrugging an Arrest or busting off someone else's positive aura. I really like the built in card draw on it too so I don't feel too bad including it.
1 Divination simple, cheap, efficient good card draw / card advantage. It isn't the flashiest thing out there but it does it cheap which I like.
1 Flight of Fancy I actually didn't know about this one until I saw your list mamba. I need evasion for my commander and I am willing to pay one extra above Divination to strap flying onto my commander. Hopefully it doesnt backfire into a Doom Blade but unless I have some repeated issues with that I am willing to give it a shot. Looks promising.
1 Opaline Bracers I totally spaced that this is a +3/+3 buff in here. That should make for some great face smashing good times. It is a bit spendy however I think it is worth the sizable buff.
1 Rampant Growth more ramp. I was looking a bit low on mine. I might even need to consider 1-2 more but I figure I will just add this one for now. I dont have that much high end stuff but it helps to get there faster and for chaining multiple spells together in a turn.
Well that should be all of my changes for now... Hopefully all of them are for the best but I cant think of a time I have been disappointed by drawing more cards so that should be nice.
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CUTS:
- Crimson Acolyte when he is good he is great but unfortunately if I am not playing against red he is totally suck ass. If we would allow sideboards he would go in for sure but for now I dont think he is good enough to be in. If I were running a mono W deck I think he is good enough then probably but I was not excited when I drew him against mono W.
- Obsidian Acolyte same reason as above.
ADDS:
+ Blinding Mage tappers are monsters at shutting out opposing voltron decks. I got shut down by one of them for most of the game last night. The reason I am picking these two tappers is because they have 2 defense. We are seeing a lot more pinging creatures in our meta to deal with token decks and utility creatures in general. This selection gives them a bit more defense against these pesky guys.
+ Master Decoy same as above.
Going forward I need to watch the amount of buffs I have and if they are all needed. I also wouldn't mind adding a little more control to the list so there is a chance I might drop one or two of the buff enchants for more control. We will see I suppose. I need to get some multiplayer games in before I decide much more though. The Acolytes just sort of stood out as needing to be cut so I am going forward with that first.
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Some additional changes coming down the pipe:
CUTS:
Asha's Favor
Favor of the Overbeing
Shield of the Oversoul
ADDS:
Frontline Sage gives me a nice exault bonus as well as giving me some filtering power.
Waveskimmer Aven another exault bonus as well as a flying blocker. 2/4 is a solid creature for the skies.
The third card I am sort of rolling about a bit. I was thinking of a few different things, possibly some sort of elf tribal assistance, possibly another control spell. I wouldn't mind some mana dump if I can find another valuable option. I was also considering more looting abilities such as Merfolk Looter to filter off some of the later game lands.
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I'm a friend of Miffed Moogle; he has got me involved in Pauper EDH and he says he has colaborated with you to tweak some of his decks for the format.
Firstly, the format sounds and looks great; Kudos if you came up with it.
I was designing a bant list myself as my first deck; colours seemed strong and the enchantments were fantastic. Here are some suggestions for yours:
1. Armadillo Cloak - Broken @ common, works with your lifelink strat with Rhox war monk
2. Treetop Bracers - Good evasion effect and handy to make some damage stick
3. Hobble - Not the best removal, but effective card draw.
4. Journey to Nowhere - 2 mana creature removal in white - rare.
5. Nacatl War Pride - Great Finisher
6. Suture Priest - Easy life and dmg.
7. Advanced Hoverguard/Aven fleetwing/Glimmering Angel - Decent flyers with a shroud effect.
8. Temporal Spring - Undercosted and effective, so undercosted it's cropping up in legacy decks as a mini Time walk.
All I have at the moment. Your list looks great, I like the feel of it. I'm going to post up my own Grixis Affinity List i've been working on, I'd love your thoughts on that.
Cheers
2. Treetop Bracers the auras havent been working of late and I am trying to cut back on them. I dont feel like this is better than what I have been using so probably not.
3. Hobble I considered it early on but I am one of the few who uses an agro type of commander. Most everyone else is running utility commanders who dont swing in. It can help stop some of the big beaters but it hasnt been too much of an issue so far. We will see in the future though.
4. Journey to Nowhere I like things that lock creatures in play so I can use them on their commanders. Arrest style that lock them from being used are primarily what I use. This is an option though for more removal.
5. Nacatl War Pride he is an uncommon but I think he would make for an interesting commander. He would work well at murdering token decks for sure.
6. Suture Priest decent utility creature but I already have most of my lifegain worked out by my commander. It does work to leach life off of opponents a bit but honestly I do a lot of my killing through the 21 commander damage. I would rather a utility creature over this.
7. Advanced Hoverguard / Aven fleetwing / Glimmering Angel Generally speaking I dont run these sort of small flying hexproof guys because they just dont do much. If I were to add extra beaters in an attempt to do more damage to opponents it would likely be big fatty ones like Ulamog's Crusher and Rootbreaker Wurm. I will look into adding a few extra wincon options though as I have had some issues focusing soley on my commander from time to time.
8. Temporal Spring you know.... I might just run this one. I have been considering doing some tucking effects and this would probably be the first add to do those. I might add it in.
-----------------------------------------
Some other things, I have noticed I have too much land / ramp and not enough ways to use it up. I think I will do a little bit of trimming it back as I am just drawing lands and ramp wayyyyy late into the game.
CUTS:
-1 Island I have been drawing way too much land. I dont want to jump down too far too fast so I will start by cutting a single land.
- Rampant Growth I have been getting too much land and ramp and I am not huge on this ramp spell. It gets me the land I need but that is about all I can say about it.
ADDS:
+ Train of Thought I need mana dumps and this is a great mana dump. It can also be a smaller scale draw 2 or 3 cards if need be.
+ Temporal Spring sort of a removal / tucking option. I will give it a shot and see how it goes.For now I am sort of back to contemplating what I want to do with the auras again. I will keep the 2 big ones that I had been considering cutting earlier for more testing. I swapped the Asha's Favor out for Frontline Sage though. I will keep an eye on them.
EDIT: hummm I thought Temporal Spring was an instant... I might have to go back on that one already... I think I will try Banishment Decree or Repel for what I was trying to do... I think I will go ahead and swap it for Banishment Decree. I think that Temporal Spring is really cool for 1v1 as you can bounce a land to the top of their library which is brutal but for multiplayer I need instant speed options.
EDIT 2: I cut a Plains instead of an Island as I realized that card draw was more important for this deck than the removal. Man I am really fumbling these changes up this morning.
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Divination -> Theft of Dreams Hopefully this gives me a bigger draw effect. I should almost always be able to get at least 2-3 cards from something like this.
Skyshroud Claim -> Merfolk Looter I just need a little more filter. I will see if this works at all for me but I dont know...
I have been considering pulling out just a few lands as well... it seems like I keep getting swamped by them. It might just be too much ramp though as well. I will have to do more playtesting. It has been a while since I played this list.
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I would except that my group plays sort of a decent concentration of pinging creatures. One toughness utility guys tend to get picked off a lot faster from these pingers. Due to that I moved to playing the 1/2 options even though they are a little slower. I generally find that I don't really need the one faster mana though.
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Abundant Growth mass mana fix and it cantrips... seems solid especially with how little pinpoint LD is run in pauper.
Amass the Components it seems like a decent draw card. I could see myself using it...
Elgaud Shieldmate pure pauper gold. Any deck that relies on its commander is going to be packing this and I am glad I am in the right colors to do so. It cant be targeted either and it gives hexproof so I can still drop buffs on both of them.
Ghostly Flicker sort of a bit like a ghostway but I like the fact that I can flicker artifacts as well to protect them... could be solid.
Gryff Vanguard a decent cantrip creature that can actually do some damage / trade in combat seems great to me.
Havengul Skaab it gives me a nice bounce option which can get my commander out of enchantment based lockdown or set up an ETB guy to trigger again for me. I sort of like it.
Well... I dont see much else worth mentioning for this list. As for changes...
Banishment Decree -> Elgaud Shieldmate the Decree didnt work that often and to be honest I didnt see as many of my opponents that I could even use this on that made if feel that great...
Elvish Visionary -> Gryff Vanguard as much as I like the Visionary I dont feel like he does much for the deck. The new flyer on the other hand can do a bit of dmg on its own and trade with other cards. I feel like the visionary is a road bump for attackers and thats about it. Hopefully this will be a good swap.
Citanul Woodreaders -> Havengul Skaab the woodreaders are sort of bad card draw that cant be easily flickered for more cards and costs a ton of mana to use. The Skaab on the otherhand is a decent fighting force that can get me out of some lockdown auras and abuse ETB creatures.
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CUTS:
Merfolk Looter I am simply replacing it with Frontline Sage improved looter in the fact that he buffs my commander. Having him cost a mana to loot and costing one more with worse stats sucks but whatev.
Farhaven Elf I just havent been impressed by him in here. To be totally honest I dont find the need to ramp much in pauper. I don't have big mana sinks in here and not much for big mana stuff.
Krosan Tusker he has been sort of meh so far. The land drops are ok but I just havent been all that impressed overall.
Second Thoughts I replaced this somewhat with Provoke and Prey Upon. It wasn't half bad but often I need to take out blockers or utility creatures. It doesn't work on non attacking creatures or shroud / hexproof creatures.
Evolution Charm I dont care much for it as a ramp effect so that leaves it as sort of just a creature recover or some sort of bad utility.
Train of Thought It is good but I rarely liked to tap out for it. I decided that Insight often digs as deep for much cheaper and at instant speed if I like. Sure I dont get the entire hand buff but for the cheaper mana and instant speed I sort of like the swap.
Asha's Favor it is a good buff but I have been trying to reduce the amount of cards I loose when someone answers my commander.
Theft of Dreams the big downside here is that it is totally dependant on my opponents. Overall I came down to the fact that Keep Watch is mostly just a better version of this. I can cast Keep Watch off my own stuff and I can tutor into it easier. I get to draw cards before creatures die in combat as well making me think that it is probably the better of the two.
Blinding Mage I like him but in the end I felt like replacing him with some sort of combination of Mind Games or the blue tutors was a better replacement for the deck. I still have a tapping creature and now I have a tap instant and 2 additional tutors that can in some way tutor into the other tapper effects.
Desert I have been feeling a little flooded on my mana of late and colorless land can be an issue. I wanted to cut back a land and a colorless one with very small utility seems like a good axe from a 3 color color intensive commander like this.
ADDS:
Frontline Sage Loot effect and a buff. He has a few uses and can be useful to ditch excess lands later on.
Archaeomancer I like how versatile he is for his recover effect. With the addition of Ghostly Flicker he can also be used as sort of a value engine as well.
Prey Upon Good utility removal effect. I am sort of surprised I didnt think of it earlier. War Monk is more powerful from the get go than most utility and other commanders. This gives me a nice removal effect especially if I pick up some protection effect or whatever.
Mind Games a nice reusable control effect. I often find that I have more lands than I need later in the game. This gives me a good difficult to deal with control outlet.
Impulse fast deep dig that is cheap. Generally I just need somewhat of a deep dig rather than drawing all 4 of the topcards.
Muddle the Mixture another tutor. I am increasing my toolbox for it a bit as well currently. I realized that for my token defense I am mostly at Echoing Truth for my answer so having a tutor for that is nice. I can also go grab Merchant Scroll which can grab something else. As a side note, this counters most of the buyback spells out there which is nice too.
Merchant Scroll another tutor toolbox. I can grab Muddle the Mixture at the worst so I like having both here to fix into whatever I need.
Provoke a fun removal effect. I like how I can use this in someone else's turn to force a block that isn't good for them.
Ghostly Flicker I have some decent ETB effects in here and with one of the spell recovery creatures I can turn this into sort of a sweet engine. Sure it is a bit getto but still it is nice to have a few engine setups in here.
Preordain a fast dig / draw effect. Being cheap means I can quickly do it and move on to the next effect.
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Questionable inclusions:
Coiling Oracle: There's nothing wrong with this card, however you mentioned 1 toughness being problematic in your area. Also you're not running Elvish Visionary and you've cut Farhaven Elf, so why would you play this card and not the others? More a question of internal logic in card selection than actual card quality.
Timberwatch Elf: This just seems to bad a pump effect for RWM. Guardians of Akrasa is probably too bad as well.
Horizon Spellbomb: This is one mana more for the same effect that Krosan Tusker provided, which you cut. And it's not a big beatstick when you need one either.
Sprout Swarm: I think this card is just too weak for its cost. YMMV.
Cards to consider:
Wildheart Invoker: This is probably the best pump effect in Pauper.
Untamed Might: I think you need good reason not to run this with a voltron general with lifelink.
Wirewood Herald: Finds the Invoker and other elves you run. You actually want people to ping it
Fierce Empath: If you swap Horizon Spellbomb for Krosan Tusker (I think it's just a better card) and run Havengul Skaab already, I'd include this and Maul Splicer. I run this in my UG Pauper deck and it's been a beating with Empath setting it all up by itself. I know it's not part of the voltron idea, but it's a more efficient token generator than Sprout Swarm at least.
Cards I found interesting:
Prey Upon: This is really solid removal that I had forgotton about. I rely on deathtouch and Viridian Longbow to kill dudes in my pauper deck, but I'm thinking it will fit right in. It would probably have to replace either Snake Form or Lignify though, and I'm not sure it beats the utility of those when it comes to handling dudes with nasty key words (I like to be able to play outside of Pauper with my deck and so feel the need to include answers to stuff like indestructible dudes). If you could only play this or Snake Form, which one would you choose?
Keep Watch: Instant speed card draw that could actually be good. Why haven't I seen this more in pauper EDH lists? How does it measure up compared to your other draw spells?
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Coiling Oracle Overall out of all of the draw one type of creatures I find this guy to be an upgrade over Elvish Visionary who was actually a card I wanted to make it in here in these last changes. Generally I find the oracle to be an upgrade though due to the possibility to ramp. Generally speaking I don't care if I show the card I draw here.
Timberwatch Elf I like that I can pump any target creature when I want with him. I agree though his buff does seem to be getting smaller as my elf package gets smaller. I had been sort of hanging onto him but it might be time to cut him. The Wildheart Invoker is an interesting call and I might give it a call in place of him.
Horizon Spellbomb I actually had not noticed that it costs less to draw with. However the big thing it has going for it is that it can fix my manabase when I don't have the green mana yet. On turn 2 I can pop it off and fix my landbase so that on turn 3 I hit my war monk into play. I think it is more versatile for what I need. It is good to notice though that the tusker is cheaper to use but for actual early game fixing it is good to have.
Guardians of Akrasa a 0/4 is actually very useful to dissuade opposing creatures. The fact that it is a buff for my commander and a low priority target is useful. Artifact / enchantment removal can be a real killer if that is where all of the buffs are located at. I have found that he tends not to be killed / destroyed outside of sweeper kill effects. Plus I run some decent utility effects like Wildsize that could be used on him to kill an opposing creature.
Sprout Swarm I am sort of in agreement here. It isnt really that big of a deal but I have some issues with opposing token decks so it had been a bit of my answer to opposing token decks.
Your suggestions:
Wildheart Invoker that is a nice effect... I might just replace the Timberwatch Elf with this guy because that is a really sick buff with a nice alternate wincon as well.
Untamed Might I like it but the lack of evasion on it worries me a bit. I have a lot of buffs that try to give power buffs that stick but the fact that this doesn't give any sustained power or evasion at least worries me a bit. It has some good potential but I might have to think it over yet.
Wirewood Herald I sort of feel like I need more targets for it to be included. Although, Wildheart Invoker is a sick target for him I sort of wonder if that is enough. The only other target currently would be the Coiling Oracle as I am swapping the invoker in for the Timberwatch Elf.
Fierce Empath I sort of feel like I need more targets for it to be included. I currently have one target for him and don't currently intend for more additions of targets.
Your Other Questions:
Prey Upon I would probably run Snakeform instead of it however a 3/4 cheap commander really does set us aside so I think this is a really solid kill spell for the deck. I am really looking forward to seeing how it plays though as I haven't gotten any games with it in yet.
Keep Watch: it is really solid because they dont need to be attacking you. The more token style swarm decks you see the better it gets. Overall though it can totally suck but even if it does you can still usually get at least 2-3 draw off your own stuff even in a bad situation. In a token deck or against tokens / swarm it gets even better.
EDIT: Sorry I have a few updates I need to tag in here.
DECK CHANGES:
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I am looking to get into Pauper, and Bant is right up my alley.
--Evil
Its actually surprising that I caught your post as I dont normally come through here but noticed that a Rhox list got bumped and just thought it could be mine lol.
As to if I still play it, I do not. It worked incredibly well when I did play it though. The people in my meta gave up on pauper though after we played it for a few months. I really liked it but for some reason it just didn't stick as a whole.
As for updates.... I can outline some things that I might consider but I dont want to run through my list and actually make changes to it offhand.
Ethereal Armor it could be a very sizeable buff. It does sort of pull you into a heavier enchantment based build though.
Last Thoughts it could provide some decent card draw especially if you put on hexproof / shroud as well to cover and just run for a while.
Celestial Flare Hexproof and Shroud can be a huge issue especially against opposing Voltron commanders. This could be a nice pickup if you have issues with that sort of thing.
Hunt the Weak Its removal, its pump, and its lifegain (due to commander having lifelink). Its not cheap, and its not fast. But it does a lot. The more shroud you run though the worse it is.
Those are primarily the cards I saw that would possibly be worth consideration.
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