Looking for some feedback on this list for pauper EDH with Vizkopa Guildmage as the commander.
The theme is the lifegain/loss and turning lifegain into even more loss, with a fantastic removal and recursion package, and a pseudo-combo of giving crypt rats lifelink.
+child of night
+ajani's sunstriker
+daggerdrome imp
+angel's mercy
+mark of the vampire
changelog 2/26/13
+sunspring expedition
+rest for the weary
+diabolic edict
+oubliette
+seal of cleansing
+seal of doom
+ray of distortion
+lone missionary
+mourning thrull
-doom blade
-consume spirit
-soltari visionary
-ulamog's crusher
-syphon mind
-drain life
-putrid warrior
-blind hunter
-soul warden
Looks fun. I'm not a fan of Sejiri Steppe without some way to get it into play at instant speed and/or blink it repeatedly.
I would run Death Denied over Shattered Crypt. Being able to cast it in response to someone targeting your graveyard or during an opponent's end step is a huge plus.
The thought behind sejiri steppe was to keep a creature alive when using a pestilence or crypt rats effect, but you make a good point i'll probably want to do those things instant speed.. so I think that will turn into something else.
Trying to find some room for suture priest, spot removal, and one of the soul's creatures but i'm not sure what to cut.
Dromad Purebreed! That camel is in for a good whipping with your general and pestilence effects. EDIT: as for cuts, I would ditch infect dudes. What do they do for your strategy?
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The thought with the infect dudes was that they are scary, and both of them interact with pestilence effects rather well (regenerate, large toughness, make other creatures smaller), but you're right, they ultimately don't help me win at all so i'll ditch them.
I think i'll put a log of changes for my own purposes at the top.
Unhallowed Pact might serve your deck pretty well. It allows you to keep an important creature of yours in play or you can steal an opponent's creature.
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I would recommend Angelic Renewal before Unhallowed Pact (though both could certainly be run). It doesn't allow you to steal a creature, but doesn't have the aura issue and lets you play insurance in advance.
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Unhallowed Pact was already in, I agree that's a cool card. Angelic Renwal looks sweet as well, I don't mind the aura thing because the pact is tutorable with totem-guide hartebeest right now. All my other renew effects are a 2 for 1 somehow so i'll have trouble finding a spot for it.
I don't know how you play this build or how it's working for you, but something tells me you could use more Lifelink. I know Vizkopa guildmage can give lifelink but i would rather spend the 1WBonly on the second ability if i could help it (really, you'd only give lifelink with her so you could use the second ability with it. 6 mana for all that might be a little much, imo) I understand if you don't want to run the weenies with lifelink but only 1 power, but there are cards like Ajani's Sunstriker and Elgaud Inquisitor which have 2 power, Zarichi Tiger that gives you life with its ability, and Swift Justice, Mark of the Vampire and Moment of Heroism to boost power AND add lifelink (the latter is till end of turn only, but meh)
You could also run more Extort. Here are the ones I run (other than kingpin's pet:
the Denizens (Shadow Alley Denizen and Court Street Denizen) might also be of use depending on how often you put out your creatures (I like court Street Denizen more in my because my Vikopa deck also deals with tokens)
Shadow Slice is great for life loss, then for MORE life loss because of cipher!
(Ex: Earlier today, I was in a 6-person game against regular EDH decks, and I had Severed Legion with Mark of the Vampire, then used Shadow Slice targeting the Riku of two reflections player, then ciphered it on Severed Legion... then swung at Riku for 4 + 3 with Shadow Slice. I used Vizkopa's 2nd ability so everyone lose 4 more, so the Riku player had lost 3 + 4 + 3 + 4 = 14 life)
If you have the 7 mana, you can siphon everyone of 7 life with Angel's Mercy
You seem to have a healthy amount of kill spells, recursion, Anti-Enchantments, etc, and i don't know your meta so i don't know how much you need them, but perhaps you could take some of them out? or for better?
Curse Break is Ench-destruction + 2 life Executioner's Swing is another cheap kill. Might be better than the Orzhov Euthanist because you're probably dealing more with creatures dealing the damage (again, don't know how yoru meta works) Purge the Profane is a discard spell that gives you 2 life, too
I think the denizens will be less useful for me, as I have a lot of harder removal already.
I'm not sure if I am sold on the extort mechanic yet because if you get it too early in the game either you just have a vanilla guy or you slow everything down by one turn to use it.. I may try a second extort dude but i'm not sure who yet.
I agree that Shadow Slice is great for life loss, but it doesn't really fit the theme of turning life gain into life loss, so i'd rather have a dude that beats in its place.
I do have too much spot removal, and I think I will take a couple out for lifelink guys, as well as Orzhov Euthanist, which is a neat card but underwhelming if I don't have pestilence or crypt rats around.
With regards to the last 3 cards, I don't really like Executioner's Swing because it is too conditional. Purge the Profane isn't a great effect in multiplayer, and if I need more enchantment removal I will put in Seal of Cleansing because it can also be recurred with the auromancer.
Thanks again, very helpful! I'll revise the changelog up top when I decide what gets the boot.
Rest for the Weary is probably one of the most efficient life gain spells there is. "I pay 5 mana, that's 8 life for me and 8 damage for all of you."
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Sunspring Expedition may serve your list as well, you can drop it turn 1 and let the landfall triggers put counters on it until you need it. Markov Patrician, Vault Skirge and Seraph of Dawn could be a decent include as well for beaters with lifelink.
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Thanks, sunspring expedition looks awesome as well. I'm going to play the deck a few more times before making more changes to see what is really underwhelming and replace it with these.
I'm going to play the deck a few more times before making more changes to see what is really underwhelming and replace it with these.
Had any more chances to test it out? Actually, my gf decided that she wanted to have a deck of her own - her first deck will be an EDH Pauper deck (that's my gal!) and her choice fell upon Vizkopa. I will need to help her build it obviously, and I have a few ideas...
Angel's Mercy is probably playable too, but I don't think it can compete with the rest. As for lifelink dudes, my prognosis is that only the evasive ones will be good. They can get through on their own for some minor life gain and I will then include buffs like Bonesplitter and Empyrial Armor to make them stronger so that there's a point to pay for Vizkopa's ability. This leaves me with:
I'm not very fond of Drain Life effects in this deck. They are good in Crypt Rats, but Vizkopa has fewer swamps and more efficient life gain. If you're not using them with the general, it seems like a bad deal, and if you are using them with the general, some massive life gain spell would have dealt more damage per mana.
I don't think it will be worthwhile to devote much more than that to pure lifegain. The rest will be pestilence effects, tough hombres and removal plus as much card advantage as possible. I'm thinking removal with at least 3-4 life gain attached to it (like Faith's Fetters or Solemn Offering) will probably be excellent in this deck too, doubling as extra win. What are your thoughts on this?
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Yes, I have had the chance to play some multiplayer games with an azorious aethermage bounce/control deck and a zameck guildmage synergy deck.
The lifelink guys are good for me even when they aren't evasive, it lets me use things like pestilence, crypt rats, sign in blood, ashes to ashes, etc without really worrying. It's also political because people don't really want to attack into lifelinkers.
All of the cards you listed urdjur have been very strong for me. Angel's mercy is definitely playable as a t7 kill spell. Blood tithe is even better if you play multiplayer matches >2 opponents.
I have some artifacts that find lands and I play mostly swamps but I'm not completely sold on the drain life effects either. I haven't had much of a chance to play them. I've been using them as creature removal and activating the guildmages ability to get some more value, and it's okay but not exactly a power play. More games will tell about these.
Mark of the Vampire has been my most surprising MVP. It might 2-for-1 you but the combo with crypt rats turns out to be really broken.
I also recommend journey to nowhere + shred memory. if you added those two the shred memory allows you to (potentially t2) search up almost any effect you need in the deck because we have a ton of 2cmc options.
i'm playing the deck a few more times tonight so i'll be back with a report later.
Interesting, eli! My brain is all about this deck right now. I have found another must run card for this deck: Shade's Form.
Angel's mercy is definitely playable as a t7 kill spell. Blood tithe is even better if you play multiplayer matches >2 opponents.
How is Blood Tithe better? Angel's Mercy with general is 7 life for you, 7 damage for all. Blood Tithe with general is 3 life for you, 6 damage for all. Mercy is a 4 mana instant, Tithe is a 4 mana sorcery. In a vacuum, sure, Blood Tithe is stronger (just like Drain Life is better than Alabaster Potion in a vacuum). In this deck I'd stick with the undercosted white lifegain though.
Mark of the Vampire has been my most surprising MVP. It might 2-for-1 you but the combo with crypt rats turns out to be really broken.
So the "combo" here would be lifelink gaining you life to counter the loss from rats or..? What makes Mark of Vampire better than the other gazillion options for lifegain? I understand it's a good aura for the deck to run, I'm just not seeing why it's the MVP.
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How is Blood Tithe better? Angel's Mercy with general is 7 life for you, 7 damage for all. Blood Tithe with general is 3 life for you, 6 damage for all. Mercy is a 4 mana instant, Tithe is a 4 mana sorcery. In a vacuum, sure, Blood Tithe is stronger (just like Drain Life is better than Alabaster Potion in a vacuum). In this deck I'd stick with the undercosted white lifegain though.
I think it works like this:
- You activate the guild mage
- Then you play Blood tite
- Opponents loose each 3 lifes
- lets assume you have 3 opponents --> you gain 9 life
- your opponents lose each 9 life
That makes a total life loss of 12 life. Pretty amazing!
But it also can make you the most hated player at the table...
I may have hyped the blood tithe too much, but I am running both angel's mercy and blood tithe right now, as well as corrupt, drain life, consume spirit, and all of that nonsense. The reasoning being that at worst, they are over costed spot removal for those annoying creatures, which is fine. At best, you topdeck one (having many in the deck) when you've run out of steam and pull a win out of nowhere.
The Crypt rats and mark of the vampire combo is no joke if it works as I think it does, but tell me if this is wrong:
a) you can crypt rats for 2 every turn without it dying, and without losing life yourself. on it's own that is pretty damn effective against lots of decks out there.
b) the crypt rats deals damage to every creature and player. lifelink damage. so you gain life for each creature it hits as well as each player it hits, and if vizkopa guildmage is in play and you can activate the ability things just get silly.
If the lifelink doesn't work that way, I am satisfied with being able to crypt rats for 2 every turn, but I believe it is VERY good.
And now for the report: tonight I played in a multiplayer match against the same azorious guildmage list, and a non-pauper, sort of decked out scion of the ur-dragon list.
I managed to pull out a win by being able to tutor up the pestilence+dromad purebred combo when it mattered through transmute cards, amongst other things, and a timely corrupt.
MVP this game goes to twisted abomination as a finisher. With the commander out it becomes 5 unblockable damage and 5 lifegain + regeneration for 4 mana per turn, and it turns out that is no joke, even when facing down huge dragons and patriarch's bidding.
cards I wasn't quite as satisfied with: child of night and blind hunter. The child of night actually was fine as an aggro lifelink dude that I don't care about losing, but I think a cheap life gain spell would have been more exciting there so I may replace it.
Blind hunter isn't as exciting as I thought, usually he dies in a chump block or to a pestilence effect, but then he haunts a guy, and while that does get you an extra 4 life swing eventually, the fact that I can't recurr him makes him potentially not as good as something else.
This deck also sorely wants flyers for small blocks late game. I felt like I never had enough and spent a lot of mana recurring my vault skirge just to stay alive. This could be a confounding effect from me playing a blue deck and a dragons deck, though.
Any comments welcome, i'm going to make a few changes in the next week and play it again probably on Thursday, when i'll talk more about whatever experiences I may have.
and please do tell me if that crypt rats thing works, because damn.
Ah, OK, now I'm understanding how the lifegain from Blood Tithe works - it seems very solid for multiplayer.
the crypt rats deals damage to every creature and player. lifelink damage. so I THINK you gain life for each creature it hits as well as each player it hits
Yes, this works AFAIK - also lifelink triggers off of damage dealt so you can do this for a high number and get obscene amounts of life even if there are only a couple of 1/1 tokens on the board. You can even do it with Vizkopa's first ability. Since Rats only accept B mana, paying the 1WB cost shouldn't detract from your blasting potential much.
I didn't consider the fact that the +2/+2 from Mark of the Vampire lets you reuse Rats for 2 or less though, that's pretty neat especially with the lifegain slapped on. I see Slagwurm Armor in a new light now! The armor would also work well on Dromad/Wall.
Going further in this direction, what do you say to Necrobite?
1) It's a mass sweeper with Gangrenous Zombies or Crypt Rats dealing only 1 damage. You get to keep the Rats too!
2) It answers untargetables in a way that Murder and friends do not
3) It's a very versatile spell that can also save your dude in a pinch
Actually, with this deck being able to recur mostly creatures with some branching out to artifacts and enchantments, and NO way to recur instants, wouldn't a few deathtouch dudes be a really useful addition? Typhoid Rats is the cheapest and probably best option. Recurring it would leave more room to use spells such as Murder, Unmake and Journey to Nowhere on those troublesome fliers you mentioned.
MVP this game goes to twisted abomination as a finisher. With the commander out it becomes 5 unblockable damage and 5 lifegain + regeneration for 4 mana per turn, and it turns out that is no joke, even when facing down huge dragons and patriarch's bidding.
I have been looking hard at Pewter Golem too for this reason. It fetches with Brainspoil also.
This deck also sorely wants flyers for small blocks late game. I felt like I never had enough and spent a lot of mana recurring my vault skirge just to stay alive. This could be a confounding effect from me playing a blue deck and a dragons deck, though.
I think if you're playing Vault Skirge, you should also be playing Mourning Thrull and Daggerdrome Imp. I'm not convinced that either of these cards are up to snuff though - they are all on the growing "maybe" list for me.
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Yes, I think I want a slagwurm armor as well as maybe a pewter golem, but i'm not convinced I want many more large cmc guys yet, so either i'm going to swap ulamog's crusher for the golem so I can fetch it, or i'm going to leave him on the sidelines for now. Any thoughts on the crusher?
I think the flyers complaint may be because I was playing mostly flying decks only. I am playing 6 flyers right now that I want to keep, plus blind hunter which i'm not sure about.
I do have daggerdrome imp in addition to vault skirge, plus stinkweed imp, cadaver imp, kingpin's pet, and seraph of dawn as a finisher. IMO they are all up to snuff. fliers block and are great, and aggro lifelink can put you out of reach faster than you might think, especially in pauper.
I think I will replace blind hunter with mourning thrull, unfortunately I would have to order some cards to do that so that may get put on hold for a week or two while I am building another pauper commander to order. Basilica Screecher may make the cut as well.
My thoughts on necrobite is that it is quite good situationally if the opponent is playing hexproof/shroud guys, but otherwise it is only okay. If you are playing an invisible stalker deck it would be great, but we do have other answers like pestilence that we can tutor up.
I don't want to cut solid removal for pseudo-removal and I don't want to cut a creature or creature recursion for this effect, so i'm not sure what I would cut, but if you've got room I think playing it would be fine.
typhoid rats is a good one that I think I will find room for.
I need an opinion on faceless butcher. I think I want to keep it, because it's great for killing commanders.. but if you need to kill another guy or they decide not to send their commander to the zone, it stops you from wanting to use any pestilence effects or anything and kind of shuts you down from the inside... so i'm not convinced. thoughts?
Yes, I think I want a slagwurm armor as well as maybe a pewter golem, but i'm not convinced I want many more large cmc guys yet, so either i'm going to swap ulamog's crusher for the golem so I can fetch it, or i'm going to leave him on the sidelines for now. Any thoughts on the crusher?
I go back and forth on the merits of Pewter Golem, Ulamog's Crusher and Guardian of the Guildpact - that is, creatures that don't "do" anything on their own except being tough dudes. I think there are 2 reasons to run these cards:
1) Interaction with Vizkopa. But really, when compared to stuff like Crypt Rats/Gangrenous Zombies or the many "gain lots of life" effects (many of which can be recurred), do these compare? Comparing just mana efficiency, let alone the requirment to enter the red zone.
2) Maintaining Pestilence. Any large toughness creature does that though, so I think the deck is better off with Slagwurm Armor and Cho-Manno's Blessing for these purposes.
These are good threats on their own, but highly profiled decks like this often cannot afford to run generic goodstuff.
I need an opinion on faceless butcher. I think I want to keep it, because it's great for killing commanders.. but if you need to kill another guy or they decide not to send their commander to the zone, it stops you from wanting to use any pestilence effects or anything and kind of shuts you down from the inside... so i'm not convinced. thoughts?
I think it is solid on its own, though it is a bit of a finesse card as you point out. Using it to hide a useful ETB dude before a big Pestilence while also keeping the enchantment on the board is another nice option. I have however (used to my Mistmeadow Witch deck) found this deck lacking in bounce/blink tricks. Thus I'm looking to include utility staples like Kor Skyfisher, Whitemane Lion and Cloudshift in the deck. All those will make Faceless Butcher more potent as a side effect (while also squeezing more value from the other ETB creatures and enchantment removal, and adding some creature protection).
Btw, this deck can easily gain vastly more life than what is needed to sustain Pestilence effects, but as an answer to that pesky general damage I will be running Kami of False Hope. With the black recursion engines, I think it will be a tough defense to penetrate for voltron generals, even if they are untargetable and shrug off pestilence. Seems a lot more solid than the previously suggested Necrobite.
EDIT: While on the topic of handling creatures, my removal suite is getting ridiculous:
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guardian of the guildpact stays because he usually gets through for damage as well as surviving any amount of pestilence. I think ulamog is getting the axe for some utility spell soon.
I'm going to keep faceless butcher for now, until better things come to light. I don't however, really want the bounce/blink package in this deck. It's too "blue". I want to be spending almost all of my mana on my turn for the guildmage abilities or pestilence stuff, and leaving 1 removal spell or so up, and not doing cute things with bounce guys. I do like blink decks but it needs a lot of support and I don't think that's where I want to go with this deck.
cho manno's blessing is interesting, but I play mostly multiplayer so I opt for inviolability in its place so that I don't have to pick a single color/player that it is particularly good against.
kami of the false hope seems good and the art is SWEET. I don't have a voltron list like that in my meta (yet), but i'll definitely keep it in mind in case that happens.
I agree with your removal package and numbers except for diabolic edict because it's too narrow.. only prefer it over doom blade etc when they have a single, hexproof, huge guy.
I have a couple of different choices though: I do run doom blade and murder and it works for me so far. I want to run the seal of doom and seal of cleansing, those are both great tech. I think the capsules are a bit dangerous, if you tap out for combat effects or something they could potentially get rid of it and you can't just sac in response like the seals. Another must play is snuff out, and I don't run arrest because I think one tutorable faith's fetters is enough.
over reliquary monk I prefer silverchase fox because you don't need an exogenous sac. outlet and it exiles, even though it doesn't hit artifacts. I do want another artifact hate creature though, so I may even run both. currently soltari visionary is another multiple use enchantment hate card but I want to replace that with seal of cleansing for sure.
I think probably 2 dedicated enchantment hate cards and 2 artifact hate cards are fine (plus o-ring obviously), especially if you can get them at 2 or 4 CMC so they are tutorable with dimir house guard and shred memory.
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The theme is the lifegain/loss and turning lifegain into even more loss, with a fantastic removal and recursion package, and a pseudo-combo of giving crypt rats lifelink.
1x Vizkopa Guildmage
Creatures (28)
1x lone missionary
1x mourning thrull
1x Auramancer
1x Blind Zealot
1x Cadaver Imp
1x Children of Korlis
1x Crypt Rats
1x Dimir House Guard
1x Dromad Purebred
1x Faceless Butcher
1x Gangrenous Zombies
1x Gravedigger
1x Guardian of the Guildpact
1x Ajani's Sunstriker
1x Kingpin's Pet
1x Liliana's Shade
1x Moriok Replica
1x Daggerdrome Imp
1x child of night
1x Phyrexian Rager
1x Seraph of Dawn
1x Stinkweed Imp
1x Totem-Guide Hartebeest
1x Suture Priest
1x Twisted Abomination
1x Urborg Syphon-Mage
1x Vault Skirge
1x Wall of Hope
1x Ashes to Ashes
1x Blood Tithe
1x Brainspoil
1x ray of distortion
1x Corrupt
1x Disturbed Burial
1x diabolic edict
1x Evincar's Justice
1x Death Denied
1x Syphon Mind
1x Urborg Uprising
1x Angel's Mercy
1x rest for the weary
1x Grim Harvest
1x Murder
1x Sun's Bounty
1x Shred Memory
1x Snuff Out
1x Tendrils of Corruption
1x Unmake
1x Sign in Blood
Enchantments/Artifacts (15)
1x Mark of the Vampire
1x Casting of Bones
1x Faith's Fetters
1x Inviolability
1x Journey to Nowhere
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Pestilence
1x Unhallowed Pact
1x Armillary Sphere
1x Orzhov Signet
1x Sylvok Lifestaff
1x sunspring expedition
1x oubliette
1x seal of cleansing
1x seal of doom
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Esper Panorama
1x Evolving Wilds
1x Haunted Fengraf
1x Orzhov Basilica
9x Plains
1x Orzhov guildgate
1x Snow-Covered Swamp
19x Swamp
1x Terramorphic Expanse
Changelog 1/4/13
-toxic nim
-sejiri steppe
-terror
-shattered crypt
-second thoughts
-recumbant bliss
+suture priest
+soul warden
+orzhov guildgate
+Unmake
+death denied
+sun's bounty
+sign in blood
changelog 1/6/13
-arrest
-Harvest Gwyllion
-Alabaster Potion
-Ostiary Thrull
+child of night
+ajani's sunstriker
+daggerdrome imp
+angel's mercy
+mark of the vampire
+sunspring expedition
+rest for the weary
+diabolic edict
+oubliette
+seal of cleansing
+seal of doom
+ray of distortion
+lone missionary
+mourning thrull
-doom blade
-consume spirit
-soltari visionary
-ulamog's crusher
-syphon mind
-drain life
-putrid warrior
-blind hunter
-soul warden
I would run Death Denied over Shattered Crypt. Being able to cast it in response to someone targeting your graveyard or during an opponent's end step is a huge plus.
Other cards to consider:
Rend Flesh
Doom Blade over Terror
Unmake
Other things that gain life you may want to consider:
Good call on Death Denied, it seems strictly better for my purposes.
I like Sun's Bounty as well, that's in for sure.
The thought behind sejiri steppe was to keep a creature alive when using a pestilence or crypt rats effect, but you make a good point i'll probably want to do those things instant speed.. so I think that will turn into something else.
Trying to find some room for suture priest, spot removal, and one of the soul's creatures but i'm not sure what to cut.
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I think i'll put a log of changes for my own purposes at the top.
Thanks!
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EDH:
GW: Selvala, Let us help YOU.
UB: Mirko Vosk, when outmatched cheat
BW: Vish Kal, The Arbiter of Reanimation
UG: Prime Speaker Zegana, the science of sorcery
RB: Malfegor, Traitor's Haven
UW: Daxos, Control-Fort-Tron
BG: Pharika, Goddess of Stax
RW: Gisela, Boros Control
RG: Ruric Thar, a Primal Surge deck
RU: Niv-Mizzet the Firemind, Spellslinger?!?!
B:(Pauper) Mikaeus the Unhallowed
R: Kurkesh, Onakke Ancient: The Power of Engineering
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Unhallowed Pact was already in, I agree that's a cool card. Angelic Renwal looks sweet as well, I don't mind the aura thing because the pact is tutorable with totem-guide hartebeest right now. All my other renew effects are a 2 for 1 somehow so i'll have trouble finding a spot for it.
You could also run more Extort. Here are the ones I run (other than kingpin's pet:
I think the others aren't common.
the Denizens (Shadow Alley Denizen and Court Street Denizen) might also be of use depending on how often you put out your creatures (I like court Street Denizen more in my because my Vikopa deck also deals with tokens)
Shadow Slice is great for life loss, then for MORE life loss because of cipher!
(Ex: Earlier today, I was in a 6-person game against regular EDH decks, and I had Severed Legion with Mark of the Vampire, then used Shadow Slice targeting the Riku of two reflections player, then ciphered it on Severed Legion... then swung at Riku for 4 + 3 with Shadow Slice. I used Vizkopa's 2nd ability so everyone lose 4 more, so the Riku player had lost 3 + 4 + 3 + 4 = 14 life)
If you have the 7 mana, you can siphon everyone of 7 life with Angel's Mercy
You seem to have a healthy amount of kill spells, recursion, Anti-Enchantments, etc, and i don't know your meta so i don't know how much you need them, but perhaps you could take some of them out? or for better?
Curse Break is Ench-destruction + 2 life
Executioner's Swing is another cheap kill. Might be better than the Orzhov Euthanist because you're probably dealing more with creatures dealing the damage (again, don't know how yoru meta works)
Purge the Profane is a discard spell that gives you 2 life, too
enchanting Witchstalker with Raised by Wolves
I played with the deck today and I agree, spending 6 for both vizkopa guildmage abilities is quite expensive, and I could use more guys with lifelink.
I will find space for ajani's sunstriker, child of night, daggerdrome imp, and mayybe elgaud inquisitor but i'm not sure that I am sold on the extra ability you pay 2 more for.
I play mostly multiplayer games, so I think Urborg Syphon-Mage is a better Zarichi Tiger.
I am concerned with longevity so I don't like swift justice or moment of heroism, but mark of the vampire can be recurred with auromancer so I think I will try that and see.
I think the denizens will be less useful for me, as I have a lot of harder removal already.
I'm not sure if I am sold on the extort mechanic yet because if you get it too early in the game either you just have a vanilla guy or you slow everything down by one turn to use it.. I may try a second extort dude but i'm not sure who yet.
I agree that Shadow Slice is great for life loss, but it doesn't really fit the theme of turning life gain into life loss, so i'd rather have a dude that beats in its place.
Angel's Mercy is great, definitely in, it will more consistently fire than alabaster potion for cheaper.
I do have too much spot removal, and I think I will take a couple out for lifelink guys, as well as Orzhov Euthanist, which is a neat card but underwhelming if I don't have pestilence or crypt rats around.
With regards to the last 3 cards, I don't really like Executioner's Swing because it is too conditional. Purge the Profane isn't a great effect in multiplayer, and if I need more enchantment removal I will put in Seal of Cleansing because it can also be recurred with the auromancer.
Thanks again, very helpful! I'll revise the changelog up top when I decide what gets the boot.
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Pretty sure that's going to replace blood tithe
For Lists, Click Here
EDH:
GW: Selvala, Let us help YOU.
UB: Mirko Vosk, when outmatched cheat
BW: Vish Kal, The Arbiter of Reanimation
UG: Prime Speaker Zegana, the science of sorcery
RB: Malfegor, Traitor's Haven
UW: Daxos, Control-Fort-Tron
BG: Pharika, Goddess of Stax
RW: Gisela, Boros Control
RG: Ruric Thar, a Primal Surge deck
RU: Niv-Mizzet the Firemind, Spellslinger?!?!
B:(Pauper) Mikaeus the Unhallowed
R: Kurkesh, Onakke Ancient: The Power of Engineering
Edit: Here is a blog entry for my deck, check it out, I hope it can give you some ideas.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/blog.php?bt=14850
Had any more chances to test it out? Actually, my gf decided that she wanted to have a deck of her own - her first deck will be an EDH Pauper deck (that's my gal!) and her choice fell upon Vizkopa. I will need to help her build it obviously, and I have a few ideas...
The lifegain I'm looking at is:
Sunspring Expedition: 1 mana, 8 life, recurs with Auramancer
Sun's Bounty: 2 mana, 4 life, recurs itself for 2 mana
Rest for the Weary: 2 mana, 8 life, can't recur but still very good
Sylvok Lifestaff: 3 life for 1 mana, reusable
Lone Missionary: 2 mana, 4 life, recurs easily
Aven Riftwatcher: Same principle as missionary
Children of Korlis: Particularly strong with pestilence effects
Dromad Purebred: See Children of Korlis. You can milk this repeatedly.
Wall of Hope: The smaller Dromad, still useful with Evincar's Justice, Gangrenous Zombies etc.
Angel's Mercy is probably playable too, but I don't think it can compete with the rest. As for lifelink dudes, my prognosis is that only the evasive ones will be good. They can get through on their own for some minor life gain and I will then include buffs like Bonesplitter and Empyrial Armor to make them stronger so that there's a point to pay for Vizkopa's ability. This leaves me with:
I'm not very fond of Drain Life effects in this deck. They are good in Crypt Rats, but Vizkopa has fewer swamps and more efficient life gain. If you're not using them with the general, it seems like a bad deal, and if you are using them with the general, some massive life gain spell would have dealt more damage per mana.
I don't think it will be worthwhile to devote much more than that to pure lifegain. The rest will be pestilence effects, tough hombres and removal plus as much card advantage as possible. I'm thinking removal with at least 3-4 life gain attached to it (like Faith's Fetters or Solemn Offering) will probably be excellent in this deck too, doubling as extra win. What are your thoughts on this?
EDIT: Decklist, work in progress:
2 Vizkopa Guildmage
MULTI/SINGLE PACK (5)
//Multiplayer (either)
4 Syphon Mind
4 Blood Tithe
3 Kingpin's Pet
2 Basilica Screecher
3 Urborg Syphon-Mage
2 Altar's Reap
4 Angel's Mercy
2 Vault Skirge
2 Daggerdrome Imp
2 Mourning Thrull
CREATURES (22)
//Draw/Ramp/Search (8)
4 Dimir House Guard
5 Totem-guide Hartebeest
4 Liliana's Shade
4 Kor Cartographer
4 Pilgrim's Eye
6 Twisted Abomination
3 Moriok Replica
3 Phyrexian Rager
2 Lone Missionary
1 Children of Korlis
5 Dromad Purebred
1 Wall of Hope
4 Seraph of Dawn
3 Crypt Rats
3 Gangrenous Zombies
4 Faceless Butcher
1 Typhoid Rats
4 Sanctum Gargoyle
2 Whitemane Lion
1 Kami of False Hope
2 Kor Skyfisher
ARTIFACTS (9)
//removal (2)
1 Executioner's Capsule
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Expedition Map
1 Wayfarer's Bauble
2 Orzhov Signet
2 Armillary Sphere
3 Darksteel Ingot
2 Mindstone
1 Sylvok Lifestaff
ENCHANTMENTS (14)
//non-auras (8)
1 Sunspring Expedition
4 Pestilence
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Journey to Nowhere
3 Oubliette
2 Angelic Renewal
2 Seal of Cleansing
3 Seal of Doom
3 Casting of Bones
2 Cho-Manno's Blessing
4 Mark of the Vampire
3 Shade's Form
3 Unhallowed Pact
4 Faith's Fetters
3 Ashes to Ashes
5 Brainspoil
2 Disturbed Burial
4 Evincar's Justice
5 Urborg Uprising
2 Grim Harvest
2 Sign in Blood
2 Mine Excavation
INSTANTS (11)
3 Murder
3 Unmake
4 Ray of Distortion
2 Diabolic Edict
4 Snuff Out
2 Shred Memory
2 Death Denied
1 Cloudshift
3 Reaping the Graves
2 Sun's Bounty
2 Rest for the Weary
LANDS (35)
1 Esper Panorama
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Orzhov Basilica
1 Orzhov guildgate
1 Haunted Fengraf
1 Bojuka Bog
18 Snow-covered Swamp
10 Plains
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The lifelink guys are good for me even when they aren't evasive, it lets me use things like pestilence, crypt rats, sign in blood, ashes to ashes, etc without really worrying. It's also political because people don't really want to attack into lifelinkers.
All of the cards you listed urdjur have been very strong for me. Angel's mercy is definitely playable as a t7 kill spell. Blood tithe is even better if you play multiplayer matches >2 opponents.
I have some artifacts that find lands and I play mostly swamps but I'm not completely sold on the drain life effects either. I haven't had much of a chance to play them. I've been using them as creature removal and activating the guildmages ability to get some more value, and it's okay but not exactly a power play. More games will tell about these.
Mark of the Vampire has been my most surprising MVP. It might 2-for-1 you but the combo with crypt rats turns out to be really broken.
I also recommend journey to nowhere + shred memory. if you added those two the shred memory allows you to (potentially t2) search up almost any effect you need in the deck because we have a ton of 2cmc options.
i'm playing the deck a few more times tonight so i'll be back with a report later.
How is Blood Tithe better? Angel's Mercy with general is 7 life for you, 7 damage for all. Blood Tithe with general is 3 life for you, 6 damage for all. Mercy is a 4 mana instant, Tithe is a 4 mana sorcery. In a vacuum, sure, Blood Tithe is stronger (just like Drain Life is better than Alabaster Potion in a vacuum). In this deck I'd stick with the undercosted white lifegain though.
So the "combo" here would be lifelink gaining you life to counter the loss from rats or..? What makes Mark of Vampire better than the other gazillion options for lifegain? I understand it's a good aura for the deck to run, I'm just not seeing why it's the MVP.
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I think it works like this:
- You activate the guild mage
- Then you play Blood tite
- Opponents loose each 3 lifes
- lets assume you have 3 opponents --> you gain 9 life
- your opponents lose each 9 life
That makes a total life loss of 12 life. Pretty amazing!
But it also can make you the most hated player at the table...
@Urdjur: Shade's form = yessss. good find!
I may have hyped the blood tithe too much, but I am running both angel's mercy and blood tithe right now, as well as corrupt, drain life, consume spirit, and all of that nonsense. The reasoning being that at worst, they are over costed spot removal for those annoying creatures, which is fine. At best, you topdeck one (having many in the deck) when you've run out of steam and pull a win out of nowhere.
The Crypt rats and mark of the vampire combo is no joke if it works as I think it does, but tell me if this is wrong:
a) you can crypt rats for 2 every turn without it dying, and without losing life yourself. on it's own that is pretty damn effective against lots of decks out there.
b) the crypt rats deals damage to every creature and player. lifelink damage. so you gain life for each creature it hits as well as each player it hits, and if vizkopa guildmage is in play and you can activate the ability things just get silly.
If the lifelink doesn't work that way, I am satisfied with being able to crypt rats for 2 every turn, but I believe it is VERY good.
And now for the report: tonight I played in a multiplayer match against the same azorious guildmage list, and a non-pauper, sort of decked out scion of the ur-dragon list.
I managed to pull out a win by being able to tutor up the pestilence+dromad purebred combo when it mattered through transmute cards, amongst other things, and a timely corrupt.
MVP this game goes to twisted abomination as a finisher. With the commander out it becomes 5 unblockable damage and 5 lifegain + regeneration for 4 mana per turn, and it turns out that is no joke, even when facing down huge dragons and patriarch's bidding.
cards I wasn't quite as satisfied with: child of night and blind hunter. The child of night actually was fine as an aggro lifelink dude that I don't care about losing, but I think a cheap life gain spell would have been more exciting there so I may replace it.
Blind hunter isn't as exciting as I thought, usually he dies in a chump block or to a pestilence effect, but then he haunts a guy, and while that does get you an extra 4 life swing eventually, the fact that I can't recurr him makes him potentially not as good as something else.
This deck also sorely wants flyers for small blocks late game. I felt like I never had enough and spent a lot of mana recurring my vault skirge just to stay alive. This could be a confounding effect from me playing a blue deck and a dragons deck, though.
Any comments welcome, i'm going to make a few changes in the next week and play it again probably on Thursday, when i'll talk more about whatever experiences I may have.
and please do tell me if that crypt rats thing works, because damn.
EDIT: i've checked and the combo does work
Yes, this works AFAIK - also lifelink triggers off of damage dealt so you can do this for a high number and get obscene amounts of life even if there are only a couple of 1/1 tokens on the board. You can even do it with Vizkopa's first ability. Since Rats only accept B mana, paying the 1WB cost shouldn't detract from your blasting potential much.
I didn't consider the fact that the +2/+2 from Mark of the Vampire lets you reuse Rats for 2 or less though, that's pretty neat especially with the lifegain slapped on. I see Slagwurm Armor in a new light now! The armor would also work well on Dromad/Wall.
Going further in this direction, what do you say to Necrobite?
1) It's a mass sweeper with Gangrenous Zombies or Crypt Rats dealing only 1 damage. You get to keep the Rats too!
2) It answers untargetables in a way that Murder and friends do not
3) It's a very versatile spell that can also save your dude in a pinch
Actually, with this deck being able to recur mostly creatures with some branching out to artifacts and enchantments, and NO way to recur instants, wouldn't a few deathtouch dudes be a really useful addition? Typhoid Rats is the cheapest and probably best option. Recurring it would leave more room to use spells such as Murder, Unmake and Journey to Nowhere on those troublesome fliers you mentioned.
I have been looking hard at Pewter Golem too for this reason. It fetches with Brainspoil also.
I think if you're playing Vault Skirge, you should also be playing Mourning Thrull and Daggerdrome Imp. I'm not convinced that either of these cards are up to snuff though - they are all on the growing "maybe" list for me.
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I think the flyers complaint may be because I was playing mostly flying decks only. I am playing 6 flyers right now that I want to keep, plus blind hunter which i'm not sure about.
I do have daggerdrome imp in addition to vault skirge, plus stinkweed imp, cadaver imp, kingpin's pet, and seraph of dawn as a finisher. IMO they are all up to snuff. fliers block and are great, and aggro lifelink can put you out of reach faster than you might think, especially in pauper.
I think I will replace blind hunter with mourning thrull, unfortunately I would have to order some cards to do that so that may get put on hold for a week or two while I am building another pauper commander to order. Basilica Screecher may make the cut as well.
My thoughts on necrobite is that it is quite good situationally if the opponent is playing hexproof/shroud guys, but otherwise it is only okay. If you are playing an invisible stalker deck it would be great, but we do have other answers like pestilence that we can tutor up.
I don't want to cut solid removal for pseudo-removal and I don't want to cut a creature or creature recursion for this effect, so i'm not sure what I would cut, but if you've got room I think playing it would be fine.
typhoid rats is a good one that I think I will find room for.
I need an opinion on faceless butcher. I think I want to keep it, because it's great for killing commanders.. but if you need to kill another guy or they decide not to send their commander to the zone, it stops you from wanting to use any pestilence effects or anything and kind of shuts you down from the inside... so i'm not convinced. thoughts?
I go back and forth on the merits of Pewter Golem, Ulamog's Crusher and Guardian of the Guildpact - that is, creatures that don't "do" anything on their own except being tough dudes. I think there are 2 reasons to run these cards:
1) Interaction with Vizkopa. But really, when compared to stuff like Crypt Rats/Gangrenous Zombies or the many "gain lots of life" effects (many of which can be recurred), do these compare? Comparing just mana efficiency, let alone the requirment to enter the red zone.
2) Maintaining Pestilence. Any large toughness creature does that though, so I think the deck is better off with Slagwurm Armor and Cho-Manno's Blessing for these purposes.
These are good threats on their own, but highly profiled decks like this often cannot afford to run generic goodstuff.
I think it is solid on its own, though it is a bit of a finesse card as you point out. Using it to hide a useful ETB dude before a big Pestilence while also keeping the enchantment on the board is another nice option. I have however (used to my Mistmeadow Witch deck) found this deck lacking in bounce/blink tricks. Thus I'm looking to include utility staples like Kor Skyfisher, Whitemane Lion and Cloudshift in the deck. All those will make Faceless Butcher more potent as a side effect (while also squeezing more value from the other ETB creatures and enchantment removal, and adding some creature protection).
Btw, this deck can easily gain vastly more life than what is needed to sustain Pestilence effects, but as an answer to that pesky general damage I will be running Kami of False Hope. With the black recursion engines, I think it will be a tough defense to penetrate for voltron generals, even if they are untargetable and shrug off pestilence. Seems a lot more solid than the previously suggested Necrobite.
EDIT: While on the topic of handling creatures, my removal suite is getting ridiculous:
1 Crypt Rats
1 Gangrenous Zombies
1 Pestilence
1 Evincar's Justice
1 Typhoid Rats
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Arrest
1 Kami of False Hope
1 Ashes to Ashes
1 Unmake
1 Faceless Butcher
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Journey to Nowhere
1 Seal of Doom
1 Brainspoil
That's 17 cards and all are must runs IMO! I could easily add Murder, Eyeblight's Ending, Rend Flesh and possibly Doom Blade and Pillory of the Sleepless. I value Capsule/Seal over Murder due to the possibility for recursion in Auramancer, Sanctum Gargoyle and Mine Excavation. (For the same recursion reason, my disenchant effects of choice for the deck will be Reliquary Monk, Seal of Cleansing and Dispeller's Capsule). Thoughts on this selection or how many cards one could/should realistically run?
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I'm going to keep faceless butcher for now, until better things come to light. I don't however, really want the bounce/blink package in this deck. It's too "blue". I want to be spending almost all of my mana on my turn for the guildmage abilities or pestilence stuff, and leaving 1 removal spell or so up, and not doing cute things with bounce guys. I do like blink decks but it needs a lot of support and I don't think that's where I want to go with this deck.
cho manno's blessing is interesting, but I play mostly multiplayer so I opt for inviolability in its place so that I don't have to pick a single color/player that it is particularly good against.
kami of the false hope seems good and the art is SWEET. I don't have a voltron list like that in my meta (yet), but i'll definitely keep it in mind in case that happens.
I agree with your removal package and numbers except for diabolic edict because it's too narrow.. only prefer it over doom blade etc when they have a single, hexproof, huge guy.
I have a couple of different choices though: I do run doom blade and murder and it works for me so far. I want to run the seal of doom and seal of cleansing, those are both great tech. I think the capsules are a bit dangerous, if you tap out for combat effects or something they could potentially get rid of it and you can't just sac in response like the seals. Another must play is snuff out, and I don't run arrest because I think one tutorable faith's fetters is enough.
over reliquary monk I prefer silverchase fox because you don't need an exogenous sac. outlet and it exiles, even though it doesn't hit artifacts. I do want another artifact hate creature though, so I may even run both. currently soltari visionary is another multiple use enchantment hate card but I want to replace that with seal of cleansing for sure.
I think probably 2 dedicated enchantment hate cards and 2 artifact hate cards are fine (plus o-ring obviously), especially if you can get them at 2 or 4 CMC so they are tutorable with dimir house guard and shred memory.