"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
I didn’t see it but I’m willing to bet the video is talking about Tibalt's Trickery
Basicly it was a error to make the card like that you can cheat out Emrakul, the Aeons Torn by countering your own spell and you get the extra turn part too (talking modern) for one example
its Already looking that card is a format warper like Uro was
As someone who's tried various builds of the Modern Tibalt's Trickery Cascade Combo deck, I don't think the deck is ban-worthy. The builds with Simian Spirit Guide, 8 or more Cascade spells, and multiple maindeck Tibalt's Trickery suffer from flipping SSG and Trickery instead of bombs disturbingly often. The builds with 1 Tibalt's Trickery, 4 Cascade spells, and majority lands are distinctly slower than the SSG builds to the point that you risk getting killed by opposing decks on Turn 3 more often such as Oops All Spells, Burn, and Colossus Hammer Time, and not only perform distinctly worse against targeted discard and counterspells than the SSG builds, they are also nearly unable to fix those matchups post-board unless they use transformational sideboards.
I haven't tried the Standard deck, but it might be a sign that not a single copy of Tibalt's Trickery is in the Top 32 of any of the two MTGO Standard Challenges since Kaldheim cards were released there (unlike the MTGO Modern Challenges in the same time period, which actually have Tibalt's Trickery Cascade Combo decks in the Top 32).
If not Trickery than something else. I can practically feel a ban of something incoming with this set, it's almost guaranteed nowadays that a set has to have a ban just because that new playtest team stopped doing their jobs 1 1/2 years ago.
Too bad they try to avoid functional errata when possible. It would keep the red take on counterspell while avoiding the broken interaction, while with straight ban, the whole thing might be considered a failure.
Seriously, how didn't they catch it before release?
Oh boy, a clickbait thread with a clickbait video. Until we get word from WotC themselves about a ban, I wouldn't worry about it.
It seems like the exact kind of card Wizards don't want around, though. Either it hits and shuts down one player, or it fails and shuts down the other (at least until they draw the right pieces to try again). Either way, one player is screwed with little they can do about it, leading to unfun gameplay.
Seriously, how didn't they catch it before release?
Well...
Designer 1: "Shouldn't we limit it to countering only opponents' spells?"
Designer 2: "Why? There is random mill, so they couldn't stack their library. And besides, who would even want to counter their own spells?"
EDIT:
Just played a game against it, but this time, opponent has Valki/Tibalt in deck, and they use Tibalt's Trickery for Tibalt.
Needless to say, from turn 2 they keep exiling mine and their cards, and because they have mainly lands, can very soon casting my own stuff.
In the end they ultimated Tibalt, and among exiled cards they cast another Tormod's Crypt/Trickery to find another Valki/Tibalt.
"We didn't think you'd counter your own spells!" said like nobody ever. That's why they implemented the random mill, to prevent Sensei's Divining Top or instant-speed tutor strategies - the obvious stuff.
Have any of you even played the deck? Its really, really inconsistent, and also incredibly vulnerable to disruption. Is it game-ending when it works? Sure. Does it work more often than it fails? Hahahano.
If your deck is completely unplayable unless your opener wins a ~26% chance lottery, your opponent can end you with a counterspell, and even if you're not interrupted you have a ~20% chance of spending two cards to do absolutely nothing, you're not winning a tournament any time soon unless you've got the luck of Seth Manfield.
Again, is it backbreaking when it works? Yeah. Does it usually work? No, no it does not. Without calculating for whether an opponent has interaction, you're looking at roughly a 20.8% chance of going off.
And that's for the standard version. The modern numbers are even worse, since you're hard-locked into drawing outburst or bust. The deck is baaaaaad.
Decks like these win either big or they fail hard.
Consistency is what makes or breaks them.
Having them around is annoying regardless, as in a tournament, if you face one and it "randomly" just kicks your butt, then its feels terrible, while their chances to win multiple games like that are quite slim.
These decks are overall a feel-bad vibe for any format, but there are plenty of combo decks that fit that bill, while most simply dont see play as nobody wants to play such a inconsistent deck if their intention is to win anything.
Have any of you even played the deck? Its really, really inconsistent, and also incredibly vulnerable to disruption. Is it game-ending when it works? Sure. Does it work more often than it fails? Hahahano.
If your deck is completely unplayable unless your opener wins a ~26% chance lottery, your opponent can end you with a counterspell, and even if you're not interrupted you have a ~20% chance of spending two cards to do absolutely nothing, you're not winning a tournament any time soon unless you've got the luck of Seth Manfield.
Again, is it backbreaking when it works? Yeah. Does it usually work? No, no it does not. Without calculating for whether an opponent has interaction, you're looking at roughly a 20.8% chance of going off.
And that's for the standard version. The modern numbers are even worse, since you're hard-locked into drawing outburst or bust. The deck is baaaaaad.
Your description of the Standard version of the Tibalt's Trickery deck may be accurate, but as a pilot of Modern versions, you're underselling the Modern versions. The 4 Cascade Spells versions can actually realistically go off on Turn 3 and win on a mulligan to 2 (I've pulled this off in testing twice so far, both against Oops All Spells in an attempt to check the deck's clock). Any version with 8 or more Cascade spells is more likely to go off on Turn 3 or earlier with an opening hand of 5 cards or more than the 4 Cascade Spells versions.
The 4 Cascade Spells versions do fall brutally to Modern Bant levels of counterspells, while the versions with 8 or more Cascade spells have a realistic shot of casting 2 Tibalt's Trickery in time against Bant. Neither of them are that hot against Modern Omnath No Black Control, though.
I'm personally fond of a Modern version with more than 16 Cascade spells myself. Its Jund and Bant match-ups feel quite decent thanks to the sheer number of Cascade spells, although I flip one of the 8 Eldrazi in the deck shockingly rarely, so I'm thinking of dropping all the 5-mana Cascade spells from it.
I still have my doubts that the 8 Cascade Spells version with multiple MTGO Modern Challenge Top 32 appearances is the best build, but I can't quite argue with results there.
The main issue the playtest team seems to have is they don't have the right people whose goal is to see how powerful a card truly interacts with the existing cards. I also don't think this is a new issue, more just we see it happen more because the bar for power on cards has been raised. I mean we had cards in the passed where 'whoops this somehow got playtest design' like Umezawa's Jitte or the Raffinity set of cards, or the Felidar Guardian combo or any other number of mistakes. And for a long while they seemed to have their stuff together as for years we didn't have a single ban.
Incorrect. There are 2 lists in modern. One is all lands and that is way too much luck dependent.
The version with 4 3 manas cascade spells + SSG + Other Eldrazi titans is way more consistent.
And for a long while they seemed to have their stuff together as for years we didn't have a single ban.
The only reason there were no bans was because WotC had a hard rule of "no bans in Standard no matter what". If bans had been allowed, cards like Gideon, Ally of Zendikar and Collected Company would have been banned (and there are arguments to be made for Sphinx's Revelation, Thoughtseize, Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, and the allied fetches, plus maybe a couple of other cards that made Standard miserable at times). It's not that they "had their stuff together", it's that their own rules prevented them from banning cards.
And for a long while they seemed to have their stuff together as for years we didn't have a single ban.
The only reason there were no bans was because WotC had a hard rule of "no bans in Standard no matter what". If bans had been allowed, cards like Gideon, Ally of Zendikar and Collected Company would have been banned (and there are arguments to be made for Sphinx's Revelation, Thoughtseize, Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, and the allied fetches, plus maybe a couple of other cards that made Standard miserable at times). It's not that they "had their stuff together", it's that their own rules prevented them from banning cards.
Gideon seems tame in comparison to some of the stuff we've gotten the last year and a half. It was really around the time of Kaladesh where they were forced to start banning things on the regular.
Tibalt's Trickery is not getting a ban anytime soon. The Standard version is cute the first few times then you just replace it with more Valkis. The Modern version is just PolymorphIntoEmrakul.dec again, which has existed ever since Emrakul 1.0 has. It'll get around for a few weeks, run into the same problems as the other Polymorph decks, and die a slow painful death to better decks. Video's obviously clickbait.
Tibalt's Trickery is not getting a ban anytime soon. The Standard version is cute the first few times then you just replace it with more Valkis. The Modern version is just PolymorphIntoEmrakul.dec again, which has existed ever since Emrakul 1.0 has. It'll get around for a few weeks, run into the same problems as the other Polymorph decks, and die a slow painful death to better decks. Video's obviously clickbait.
Polymorph's biggest weakness is that it targets a creature, so it gets hosed by removal in addition to counterspells and targeted discard. From my testing, Modern Tibalt's Trickery Cascade Combo feels more like a faster but more inconsistent Modern Goblin Charbelcher that is less able to handle hate maindeck but which can be tuned to handle targeted discard better and that keels over to fewer hate cards.
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I saw this go off and I'm like are you ******* serious? That's not good on WOTC's image right now. Another set with a consecutive ban (potentially)?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65YMJqtjDn4&t=2s
'buster
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"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
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"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
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Nothing an errata can't fix with just 3 words.
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Basicly it was a error to make the card like that you can cheat out Emrakul, the Aeons Torn by countering your own spell and you get the extra turn part too (talking modern) for one example
its Already looking that card is a format warper like Uro was
I haven't tried the Standard deck, but it might be a sign that not a single copy of Tibalt's Trickery is in the Top 32 of any of the two MTGO Standard Challenges since Kaldheim cards were released there (unlike the MTGO Modern Challenges in the same time period, which actually have Tibalt's Trickery Cascade Combo decks in the Top 32).
If it gets banned they will do it after 3 weeks of T'sT&Eldrazi/anti combo meta, trust me
Too bad they try to avoid functional errata when possible. It would keep the red take on counterspell while avoiding the broken interaction, while with straight ban, the whole thing might be considered a failure.
Seriously, how didn't they catch it before release?
That's been a major question since Eldraine, the new playtest team they created to specifically stop stuff like this has happened more and more.
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Ascendency Combo
Restore Balance
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EDH:
Ghave Lands
Narset Combo
It seems like the exact kind of card Wizards don't want around, though. Either it hits and shuts down one player, or it fails and shuts down the other (at least until they draw the right pieces to try again). Either way, one player is screwed with little they can do about it, leading to unfun gameplay.
Well...
Designer 1: "Shouldn't we limit it to countering only opponents' spells?"
Designer 2: "Why? There is random mill, so they couldn't stack their library. And besides, who would even want to counter their own spells?"
EDIT:
Just played a game against it, but this time, opponent has Valki/Tibalt in deck, and they use Tibalt's Trickery for Tibalt.
Needless to say, from turn 2 they keep exiling mine and their cards, and because they have mainly lands, can very soon casting my own stuff.
In the end they ultimated Tibalt, and among exiled cards they cast another Tormod's Crypt/Trickery to find another Valki/Tibalt.
At least this was new and interesting.
Been on this forum for 10++ years
Playing since '94
This is some major mess up WOTC. Wow.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
Guess making a Goblin Charbelcher type deck was not on anyone's radar.
If your deck is completely unplayable unless your opener wins a ~26% chance lottery, your opponent can end you with a counterspell, and even if you're not interrupted you have a ~20% chance of spending two cards to do absolutely nothing, you're not winning a tournament any time soon unless you've got the luck of Seth Manfield.
Again, is it backbreaking when it works? Yeah. Does it usually work? No, no it does not. Without calculating for whether an opponent has interaction, you're looking at roughly a 20.8% chance of going off.
And that's for the standard version. The modern numbers are even worse, since you're hard-locked into drawing outburst or bust. The deck is baaaaaad.
Consistency is what makes or breaks them.
Having them around is annoying regardless, as in a tournament, if you face one and it "randomly" just kicks your butt, then its feels terrible, while their chances to win multiple games like that are quite slim.
These decks are overall a feel-bad vibe for any format, but there are plenty of combo decks that fit that bill, while most simply dont see play as nobody wants to play such a inconsistent deck if their intention is to win anything.
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Your description of the Standard version of the Tibalt's Trickery deck may be accurate, but as a pilot of Modern versions, you're underselling the Modern versions. The 4 Cascade Spells versions can actually realistically go off on Turn 3 and win on a mulligan to 2 (I've pulled this off in testing twice so far, both against Oops All Spells in an attempt to check the deck's clock). Any version with 8 or more Cascade spells is more likely to go off on Turn 3 or earlier with an opening hand of 5 cards or more than the 4 Cascade Spells versions.
The 4 Cascade Spells versions do fall brutally to Modern Bant levels of counterspells, while the versions with 8 or more Cascade spells have a realistic shot of casting 2 Tibalt's Trickery in time against Bant. Neither of them are that hot against Modern Omnath No Black Control, though.
I'm personally fond of a Modern version with more than 16 Cascade spells myself. Its Jund and Bant match-ups feel quite decent thanks to the sheer number of Cascade spells, although I flip one of the 8 Eldrazi in the deck shockingly rarely, so I'm thinking of dropping all the 5-mana Cascade spells from it.
I still have my doubts that the 8 Cascade Spells version with multiple MTGO Modern Challenge Top 32 appearances is the best build, but I can't quite argue with results there.
4x Violent Outburst
1x Tibalt's Trickery
4x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
And it even runs 4x copies of Gemstone Caverns just so it can perform a t2 version of it in modern. Rest of the deck by the way is lands. You know is the most accurate comparison to this shenanigans right now? Treasure Hunt + a single copy of Thassa's Oracle. But this is better than that as instead of pulling up your 2nd or 3rd Treasure Hunt, you just cast your first Violent Outburst to get a singular Tibalt's Trickery.
The main issue the playtest team seems to have is they don't have the right people whose goal is to see how powerful a card truly interacts with the existing cards. I also don't think this is a new issue, more just we see it happen more because the bar for power on cards has been raised. I mean we had cards in the passed where 'whoops this somehow got playtest design' like Umezawa's Jitte or the Raffinity set of cards, or the Felidar Guardian combo or any other number of mistakes. And for a long while they seemed to have their stuff together as for years we didn't have a single ban.
Incorrect. There are 2 lists in modern. One is all lands and that is way too much luck dependent.
The version with 4 3 manas cascade spells + SSG + Other Eldrazi titans is way more consistent.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LnY_dNXIuk
The only reason there were no bans was because WotC had a hard rule of "no bans in Standard no matter what". If bans had been allowed, cards like Gideon, Ally of Zendikar and Collected Company would have been banned (and there are arguments to be made for Sphinx's Revelation, Thoughtseize, Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, and the allied fetches, plus maybe a couple of other cards that made Standard miserable at times). It's not that they "had their stuff together", it's that their own rules prevented them from banning cards.
Gideon seems tame in comparison to some of the stuff we've gotten the last year and a half. It was really around the time of Kaladesh where they were forced to start banning things on the regular.
Polymorph's biggest weakness is that it targets a creature, so it gets hosed by removal in addition to counterspells and targeted discard. From my testing, Modern Tibalt's Trickery Cascade Combo feels more like a faster but more inconsistent Modern Goblin Charbelcher that is less able to handle hate maindeck but which can be tuned to handle targeted discard better and that keels over to fewer hate cards.