Unsure if this should belong in any of the existing competitive stax threads (5c, BR or Red Aggro) so I decided to make an entirely new thread instead.
Mods: feel free to move this thread to wherever it belongs.
Just wanted to get this out there, and hopefully get some discussion going on about this build. I believe it is a pretty standard list, very competitive. Anyone else playing this stax version?
A few cards I'd like to mention that could be up for discussion:
this exact list - 4 loadstone golem - 2 duplicant + 4 sphere of resistence + 1 crucible of worlds +1 null rod is already in the competitive forums.
Duplicant always strikes me as a sideboard card and this deck really doesn't need it....loadstone golems are fine but not at the expense of sphere. easier to guarantee 2 mana on turn 1 than 4 and you want as many lock pieces down as early as possible. I would rather face this list than one that ran sphere FYI
The differences between the decks are IMO quite significant though. This deck plays 6 more creatures. It actually plays a bit different than the builds with only welders as creatures.
Duplicants are good vs Goyfs, Oath targets, most Tinker targets, opposing Golems (MUD creatures) and even fish creatures when you've established some board control. I played Karn in this slot before, but I must say Duplicant has been very good lately.
The golems gives the deck some tempo. Playing against Blue based control decks, golem gives them less time to find their Hurkyll's Recall or Rebuild to win against you. Golems are also better combo with Goblin Welder over "traditional" spheres.
It's not hard to drop Golem turn one or two with workshops and moxes in the deck. Backed up with challice on 0 or 2 the previous or following turn is a good early soft-lock in my book. Playing with both Challice and Rods you won't really miss the +1 to artifacts costs. By not playing spheres you actually speeds up your own deck while at the same time denying them for mana accel. Having spheres, rods and challice all together could seem overkill. So why not play spheres with legs?
I can see your point though, and this is a good start for discussion. I'm unsure if Memory Jar should be in the list with Null Rods, but that is also why I only added 3 copies of Rods.
The differences between the decks are IMO quite significant though. This deck plays 6 more creatures. It actually plays a bit different than the builds with only welders as creatures.
Duplicants are good vs Goyfs, Oath targets, most Tinker targets, opposing Golems (MUD creatures) and even fish creatures when you've established some board control. I played Karn in this slot before, but I must say Duplicant has been very good lately.
The golems gives the deck some tempo. Playing against Blue based control decks, golem gives them less time to find their Hurkyll's Recall or Rebuild to win against you. Golems are also better combo with Goblin Welder over "traditional" spheres.
It's not hard to drop Golem turn one or two with workshops and moxes in the deck. Backed up with challice on 0 or 2 the previous or following turn is a good early soft-lock in my book. Playing with both Challice and Rods you won't really miss the +1 to artifacts costs. By not playing spheres you actually speeds up your own deck while at the same time denying them for mana accel. Having spheres, rods and challice all together could seem overkill. So why not play spheres with legs?
I can see your point though, and this is a good start for discussion. I'm unsure if Memory Jar should be in the list with Null Rods, but that is also why I only added 3 copies of Rods.
D3@D
there is nothing wrong with your list overall. just that i don't think it's different enough from the red stax deck and my personal opinion is the red stax deck is more efficient.....not that your deck isn't good or isn't competitive.
Now on the Duplicants, they are hit or miss, some games you are able to get goyf or darkie, some games your only choice is bob you have no legal targets, which is why i tend to shy away from them as a main deck card in anything except maybe Mud, stax to me isn't about fighting what your opponant gets out it's about stopping them from getting stuff out long enough to drop stax and make anything they do play irrelevent. the sideboard is there for the match-ups you have trouble doing that in. which is basicaly oath
As far as the golems go i have no problems with them in a red stax build i just cringe at removing sphere of resistance form the build. stax relies on getting locks out quickly, as many as possible, there is a reason everything in the deck except Smokestacks and Memory Jar costs three mana or less, it needs to be able to throw a lock piece out turn one even if it doesn't have a workshop in it's opening grip, and the more opportunities to throw TWO locks on turn one the better. I personally don't like smokestax and golem in the same deck unless it's mud, thats just my opinion though. they basically fight over how you are planning on winning the game and they both clog up the 4 mana slot
the main problem with golem over sphere is sphere is better at doing what the golems main purpose in the deck is, slow your opponant down. as far as memory jar goes, i would include 4 null rods and memory jar all the time. you can always weld out the rod when ready to use jar and you basically win the game when you activate jar 75% of the time. null rod's purpose is shutting off fast mana as early as possible, so combined with chalice you have 8 ways to turn off your opponants artifact mana on turn 1.
I tried the welder + spheres / lock-piece build. And it just never worked out for me. The deck was relying too much on cruicble of worlds + Barbring/wastestrip. Golem gives me another way to win. And personally, I think Golems main reason in the deck is to attack and to give your opponent some sort of pressure. Its sphere-effect is only a plus which is a very significant one. Otherwise I could have just used any other efficient artifact attacker.
You got some points on Duplicant, but I just have to say they've been stellar for me lately. Could be just a meta-coincidence. But I have been happy to draw him anytime after turn 3.
again my main point about golem isn't that you are running him, but that you are running him over sphere. I played against red stax today....it had golems, it also had spehere. if it didn't have spheres i win the match.
i'm also curious as to the complete lack of turn1 spheres aside from lodestone golem. i personally think that bazaars and tangle wires are fairly week in here. also gorilla shaman looks like it wouls fit well in here too.
steel hellkite, wurmcoil engine and myr battlesphere are all good targets for welder. the only one i would consider is helkite. its the ony one thats disruptive. that being said, it makes for a nice answer to just about anything.
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As the co-creator of Mono Red Bazaar Stax(along with Ici Li, who piloted the deck to many top finishes and was written on by Stephen Menendian), the deck aimed to get 2-3 lock pieces on the table by turn 2, and then squeeze the opponent until the game was out of reach. The most difficult part of the deck is using Bazaar. The deck was extremely difficult to pilot, mostly due to the fact that Bazaar is card disadvantage. Because of that, the card filtering you get with Bazaar has to weigh greater than the card disadvantage. If you are leaning too hard on crucible or can't close out the game, I would look there first.
Secondly, Bazaar Stax is a prison list. You are looking to decompress the game long enough for smokestack and strip effects to win you the game. Lodestone does not decompress the game, and is not synergistic with Welder or the deck. Lodestone as a lock piece needs to be deployed early to be effective. You would be looking to utilize cards like Ancient Tomb and Serum Powder to ensure a consistent turn 1 golem. Barbarian ring and Bazaar are the wrong lands to use to accomplish this. Also, Lodestone isn't just a sphere. It costs 4 and cannot always be deployed easily. That is why Mud looks to play with a supersaturation of spheres, as Lodestone is a beatstick that slides under both Thorns and other Lodestones, and is synergistic with other spheres as long as the mana base can support it. The reason it is played in MUD is because colorless lands are the only non-restricted lands that can most consistently generate multiple mana with a single tap, making it easier to land Lodestone early, making it most effective.
Null Rod is a 3 of in the Bazaar stax list for the same reason that Crucible is... multiples are redundant and don't compound the lock effects, thus you want to hit them, but you don't want multiples. The use of Null Rod is to cut off Moxen that seep through your spheres, which makes it chalice for 0 #5-7, or in conjunction with spheres, becomes a super sphere, cutting off an additional 2 or more mana with a single card.
In Bazaar Stax, Memory Jar is included as a singleton due to its ability to completely take over a game with a single activation. The digging, its ability to give you instant threshold, and being able to stack Jar triggers to reload your hand permanently are all to abusive to allow it to be cut.
Duplicants have made it to the maindeck from time to time in MUD lists, but you need to ask yourself why. The times that they have, MUD had been the deck to beat, and the best meta-game predator for MUD lists has traditionally been Oath. Duplicants become great in a meta-game rife with Oath targets and become a 2 for 1 in the MUD mirror match. Prison lists don't run Duplicant because it is extremely difficult to cast through layers of 2-drop spheres when more than half of your lands don't tap for more than 1. This is the reason Ensnaring bridge is in the board. Bridge only costs 3, and you can manage the attack step with Bazaar while feeding into the other synergies of the deck. It also is the main reason it is Dredge's nighmare match-up, as even your mulligans to find it, Tabernacles, and Crypts help stop zombie tokens from eating your brains. Duplicants in the main have always been a meta-game call, and even they have been phasing out of lists as Metamorph has some overlapping utility with duplicant.
Mox Opal is a terrible card for any Shop list. You need your moxes to be able to jump the curve and play your spells. The metalcraft restriction on its use means you can't play it on its own to cast a sphere, chalice, golem, or just about anything on turn 1. Mox opal is not acceleration, it is mana fixing, and as such, should only be used in lists that need it as such. Unless 5C Stax becomesa viable again, it has no place in Workshop lists of today.
Tangle wires break board-states and are necessary to compliment the lock pieces in any workshop build. The are a lock piece that provides utility in a way that spheres can't. That why they exist in 99% of lists, and that is by no means a mistake. I would cut Trinisphere before I cut Tanglewires: they are that integral to shops.
I do not mean to sound like I am giving harsh criticism, as I truly believe that discussion on Shops is severely lacking; I'm very happy to see your interest in the archetype. However, I think you need to decide how you want to win before you decide whether you want to build a prison list (Stax) or a Workshop aggro list (Mud), and then build accordingly.
Your main deck is being pushed as an aggro list with a prison manabase, but your sideboard has all prison sideboard elements. Shattering sprees push opponents further under spheres, tabernacles, bridges and crypts decimate creatures and invalidate the combat step (especially zombie tokens- here's looking at you dredge) which is something you don't want to do if you are running lodestone. Prison List use Gargadon as a way to deal with Orchard tokens from Oath. Aggro lists let Oath tutor their creatures up, and use wires to tap them down and swing right past them. This list as-is, is a mesh of many commonly used workshop pieces, but unfortunately, not all lock pieces are created equal. I'd be more than happy to assist you in sculpting your list. Feel free to PM me.
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3 Mountain
Non- Basic Land: 18
4 Barbarian Ring
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
Artifact Mana: 9
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Smokestack
4 Tangle Wire
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Null Rod
1 Memory Jar
1 Trinisphere
Creature: 10
4 Goblin Welder
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Duplicant
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Greater Gargadon
3 Shattering Spree
3 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Tormod's Crypt
Just wanted to get this out there, and hopefully get some discussion going on about this build. I believe it is a pretty standard list, very competitive. Anyone else playing this stax version?
A few cards I'd like to mention that could be up for discussion:
Mana Vault
Memory Jar
Rishdan Port
Mishra's Factory
Ancient Tomb
Karn, Silver Golem
Thorn of Amethyst
Sphere of Resistance
Sundering Titan
Sculpting Steel
Uba Mask
D3@D
Duplicant always strikes me as a sideboard card and this deck really doesn't need it....loadstone golems are fine but not at the expense of sphere. easier to guarantee 2 mana on turn 1 than 4 and you want as many lock pieces down as early as possible. I would rather face this list than one that ran sphere FYI
(Northeastern PA Vintage)
Duplicants are good vs Goyfs, Oath targets, most Tinker targets, opposing Golems (MUD creatures) and even fish creatures when you've established some board control. I played Karn in this slot before, but I must say Duplicant has been very good lately.
Lodestone Golem is also basically a sphere with legs. Null Rod and Challice of the Void, Smokestack, Tangle Wire and Trinisphere should also be categorized as lock-pieces.
The golems gives the deck some tempo. Playing against Blue based control decks, golem gives them less time to find their Hurkyll's Recall or Rebuild to win against you. Golems are also better combo with Goblin Welder over "traditional" spheres.
It's not hard to drop Golem turn one or two with workshops and moxes in the deck. Backed up with challice on 0 or 2 the previous or following turn is a good early soft-lock in my book. Playing with both Challice and Rods you won't really miss the +1 to artifacts costs. By not playing spheres you actually speeds up your own deck while at the same time denying them for mana accel. Having spheres, rods and challice all together could seem overkill. So why not play spheres with legs?
I can see your point though, and this is a good start for discussion. I'm unsure if Memory Jar should be in the list with Null Rods, but that is also why I only added 3 copies of Rods.
D3@D
there is nothing wrong with your list overall. just that i don't think it's different enough from the red stax deck and my personal opinion is the red stax deck is more efficient.....not that your deck isn't good or isn't competitive.
Now on the Duplicants, they are hit or miss, some games you are able to get goyf or darkie, some games your only choice is bob you have no legal targets, which is why i tend to shy away from them as a main deck card in anything except maybe Mud, stax to me isn't about fighting what your opponant gets out it's about stopping them from getting stuff out long enough to drop stax and make anything they do play irrelevent. the sideboard is there for the match-ups you have trouble doing that in. which is basicaly oath
As far as the golems go i have no problems with them in a red stax build i just cringe at removing sphere of resistance form the build. stax relies on getting locks out quickly, as many as possible, there is a reason everything in the deck except Smokestacks and Memory Jar costs three mana or less, it needs to be able to throw a lock piece out turn one even if it doesn't have a workshop in it's opening grip, and the more opportunities to throw TWO locks on turn one the better. I personally don't like smokestax and golem in the same deck unless it's mud, thats just my opinion though. they basically fight over how you are planning on winning the game and they both clog up the 4 mana slot
the main problem with golem over sphere is sphere is better at doing what the golems main purpose in the deck is, slow your opponant down. as far as memory jar goes, i would include 4 null rods and memory jar all the time. you can always weld out the rod when ready to use jar and you basically win the game when you activate jar 75% of the time. null rod's purpose is shutting off fast mana as early as possible, so combined with chalice you have 8 ways to turn off your opponants artifact mana on turn 1.
(Northeastern PA Vintage)
You got some points on Duplicant, but I just have to say they've been stellar for me lately. Could be just a meta-coincidence. But I have been happy to draw him anytime after turn 3.
(Northeastern PA Vintage)
steel hellkite, wurmcoil engine and myr battlesphere are all good targets for welder. the only one i would consider is helkite. its the ony one thats disruptive. that being said, it makes for a nice answer to just about anything.
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Secondly, Bazaar Stax is a prison list. You are looking to decompress the game long enough for smokestack and strip effects to win you the game. Lodestone does not decompress the game, and is not synergistic with Welder or the deck. Lodestone as a lock piece needs to be deployed early to be effective. You would be looking to utilize cards like Ancient Tomb and Serum Powder to ensure a consistent turn 1 golem. Barbarian ring and Bazaar are the wrong lands to use to accomplish this. Also, Lodestone isn't just a sphere. It costs 4 and cannot always be deployed easily. That is why Mud looks to play with a supersaturation of spheres, as Lodestone is a beatstick that slides under both Thorns and other Lodestones, and is synergistic with other spheres as long as the mana base can support it. The reason it is played in MUD is because colorless lands are the only non-restricted lands that can most consistently generate multiple mana with a single tap, making it easier to land Lodestone early, making it most effective.
Null Rod is a 3 of in the Bazaar stax list for the same reason that Crucible is... multiples are redundant and don't compound the lock effects, thus you want to hit them, but you don't want multiples. The use of Null Rod is to cut off Moxen that seep through your spheres, which makes it chalice for 0 #5-7, or in conjunction with spheres, becomes a super sphere, cutting off an additional 2 or more mana with a single card.
In Bazaar Stax, Memory Jar is included as a singleton due to its ability to completely take over a game with a single activation. The digging, its ability to give you instant threshold, and being able to stack Jar triggers to reload your hand permanently are all to abusive to allow it to be cut.
Duplicants have made it to the maindeck from time to time in MUD lists, but you need to ask yourself why. The times that they have, MUD had been the deck to beat, and the best meta-game predator for MUD lists has traditionally been Oath. Duplicants become great in a meta-game rife with Oath targets and become a 2 for 1 in the MUD mirror match. Prison lists don't run Duplicant because it is extremely difficult to cast through layers of 2-drop spheres when more than half of your lands don't tap for more than 1. This is the reason Ensnaring bridge is in the board. Bridge only costs 3, and you can manage the attack step with Bazaar while feeding into the other synergies of the deck. It also is the main reason it is Dredge's nighmare match-up, as even your mulligans to find it, Tabernacles, and Crypts help stop zombie tokens from eating your brains. Duplicants in the main have always been a meta-game call, and even they have been phasing out of lists as Metamorph has some overlapping utility with duplicant.
Mox Opal is a terrible card for any Shop list. You need your moxes to be able to jump the curve and play your spells. The metalcraft restriction on its use means you can't play it on its own to cast a sphere, chalice, golem, or just about anything on turn 1. Mox opal is not acceleration, it is mana fixing, and as such, should only be used in lists that need it as such. Unless 5C Stax becomesa viable again, it has no place in Workshop lists of today.
Tangle wires break board-states and are necessary to compliment the lock pieces in any workshop build. The are a lock piece that provides utility in a way that spheres can't. That why they exist in 99% of lists, and that is by no means a mistake. I would cut Trinisphere before I cut Tanglewires: they are that integral to shops.
I do not mean to sound like I am giving harsh criticism, as I truly believe that discussion on Shops is severely lacking; I'm very happy to see your interest in the archetype. However, I think you need to decide how you want to win before you decide whether you want to build a prison list (Stax) or a Workshop aggro list (Mud), and then build accordingly.
Your main deck is being pushed as an aggro list with a prison manabase, but your sideboard has all prison sideboard elements. Shattering sprees push opponents further under spheres, tabernacles, bridges and crypts decimate creatures and invalidate the combat step (especially zombie tokens- here's looking at you dredge) which is something you don't want to do if you are running lodestone. Prison List use Gargadon as a way to deal with Orchard tokens from Oath. Aggro lists let Oath tutor their creatures up, and use wires to tap them down and swing right past them. This list as-is, is a mesh of many commonly used workshop pieces, but unfortunately, not all lock pieces are created equal. I'd be more than happy to assist you in sculpting your list. Feel free to PM me.
Blue: teaching Magic players manners since 1995Shops: Teaching blue players manners since 2009