I have always been interested in playing vintage, but never had the opportunity to due to a lack of vintage players in my location. However, in two weeks I am going to be going to a college that is 15 minutes away from the location of a place I can play vintage at. Because of this, I am eager to make a competitive vintage deck now that I have the chance to use it. However, I am just now really studying all the archetypes and which matchups are good and it is a bit much to take in at once, so here I am asking for help
I've always liked Mishra's Workshop and being able to use it to play Trinisphere in turn 1 could be devastating against some decks. I looked into this a little more and I found the Mono Red Shop Aggro archetype, so I'm thinking something along the lines of...
Should I put Magus of the Moon in MD? maybe SB some Null Rods? I really only half know what I'm doing here so any help from a pro would be greatly appreciated
you should probably put Sundering Titan mainboard because he blows up other people's lands and at a maximum will only blow up one of yours. I suggest taking Juggernaut out for Titan
Also this deck needs Metalworker. I don't think anyone will argue with free mana.
Null Rod should def be in the SB. However I suggest running it mainboard considering it won't really do much to affect you but it will shut down all the vault/key combo's that are just flying around everywhere.
Contract From Below is banned because it is an ante card so that needs to come out altogether.
Magus will really really hurt you more than help you for obvious reasons
you might want to throw in a Mana Vault as well considering the massive mana boost it gives you.
Hope this all helps
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Thanks a ton for the input! Contract From Below was meant to be a joke, since I couldn't think of anything else to put in the Side Board I edited it to make it more obvious lol
Sundering Titan is awesome in theory, but how many competitive decks are running enough basic lands to make this a viable option? I feel like its effect may end up hurting me more than helping since I am running Mountains and my opponent may be running no basics (though I could use a fatty like this lol)
Metalworker is fantastic. Null Rod will make this card useless, but before it gets to that point the extra mana from Metalworker could be invaluable. That said, the issue of my Null Rods becomes a problem. Do I put 4 in my Main Deck? 4 in my Side, I did originally have 4 in the SB, but key/vault decks are so common at the moment that I just threw them in MD. Maybe 2 MD 2 SB?
The thing about Sundering Titan is that the wording on the card does not say basic land. It says basic land "TYPE" this is a monumental difference. Here is how it works in your favor. Dual lands count as both of whatever land types that they tap for. So hypothetically lets just say your opponent has a Volcanic Island, Tundra, Underground Sea, and a basic Island. When you play Sundering Titan, his ability triggers making you choose 5 basic land types to destroy. Since dual lands count as both basic land types you can destroy the basic Island to destroy for the island, you can destroy the Volcanic Island as the mountain, you can destroy the Underground Sea as the swamp, and you can destroy Tundra as the plains. And since there is no forest in play on either your side or your opponents, the part that tells you to destroy a forest just fizzles.
Does that make sense at all? I hope it wasn't too confusing.
Not only is titan a 7/10 beat stick, but for the most part he leaves your lands unharmed while he just blows up your opponents. He can totally swing the game around and with all the lands he destroys. Also with Mishra's workshopand metalworker you can play him with relative ease.
As for worrying about the null rod's, the most it will do against you will shut off your mox and lotus. But since the Timevault/Voltaic Key combo is running rampant through vintage, null rod will shut that combo down as well. If you are still too worried that null rod will hurt more than it will help, Pithing Needle is a cheap and extremely easy alternative to play against the vault/key combo. Needle also shuts off the annoying tezzeret. It is an extremely versatile card in all formats
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Oh heh I understand what you mean about Sundering Titan now, I didn't realise it was talking about land TYPES, I thought it litterally ment one card titled "Plains", one titled "Forest", etc. With the ability to destroy a bunch of dual lands, the value of this card goes way up. Definitely adding some!
The reason I chose Magus of the Moon for my SB was to counter decks like Oath, or really any deck that does not primarily contain red/artifacts. If every land in my side of the battlefield is a mountain, I *can* still get everything out, just slowly, whereas a Blue/Black deck not containing any basic islands or swamps might not be able to play anything if all they had access to was red mana.
Pithing Needle is a great option to consider in stead of Null Rod. The needle is 1 mana, and targets a specific card leaving my moxen/metal worker etc. The only disadvantage I can think of is that playing Pithing Needle requires me to know exactly what to shut down at the time of playing it. For example, if I don't know that my opponent has a vault/key combo going on (which I might not recognize before one or the other is played since I'm new to the format), they can easily play vault, play key, and activate key to start the infinite turn combo before I have the chance to play the Pithing Needle in my hand. However, my opponent could just as well play one or the other, not knowing that I have a needle. Also, after the first game I think I'd know what card to name with the needle.
If you are new to the format, you may want to start with a "conventional" list and then tweak it after playing with it a little to fit your playstyle and metagame. When playing with Workshops, there are three main archetypes: Stax (more controlling, lockdown), MUD Aggro (Metalworker-based aggro) and Shop Aggro (usually red).
Stax leans very heavily on Goblin Welder to do lots of tricks and lock down your opponent. Many builds of Stax play some number of 5-color lands (usually City of Brass and Gemstone Mine) in order to play powerful restricted cards of every color, such as the black tutors, Balance, Tinker, etc. With Bazaar of Baghdad letting you draw cards and put artifacts in your graveyard for Welder, you can filter through your deck for what you need for a given situation. Instead of hardcasting artifacts such as Sundering Titan, you can just use Welder to bring them in and out of play. This lets you build a lock, maintain a lock, and otherwise disrupt your opponent's gameplan. This is the deck that is most likely to run a maindeck Sundering Titan.
MUD decks basically run no colored spells; as a result, they typically feature Metalworker since there is such a high concentration of artifacts, even when compared to other Workshop-based decks. This can allow for explosive lines of play, and even combos (with Staff of Domination). Typically MUD decks will be combo-oriented (with Staff) or aggro (fast artifact disruption + artifact creatures with equipment). Another bonus: since you are mono-artifacts, you don't have to worry about getting color-screwed.
Finally, there are the mono-colored aggro Workshop decks. These are usually mono-red, but other colors have been known to play too. Most of the time, this deck wins by combining a disruptive board of artifacts with beatdown by a Solemn Simulacrum/Triskelion carrying a Sword of Fire and Ice. Since the mono-red version can run Goblin Welder, this allows for typical Welder tricks. One of the classic Welder tricks is using Solemn Simulacrum as a recurring blocker/draw engine/land fetcher. This is the deck most likely to run Magus of the Moon in the main.
My advice to you is to keep your deck focused on a plan; there are so many tools to work with when you are playing Workshops that it is easy to dilute your deck. No matter which deck you choose to play, there are so many tricks and synergies that are easy to miss; so many ways to win that you may not spot at first. For example, say you are playing Mono-Red Shop Aggro, and you are attacking with a Solemn Simulacrum equipped with a Sword of Fire and Ice. You feel pretty good about the gamestate, until your opponent drops a Moat (not likely, but possible...that is the beauty of Vintage). Don't scoop...if you have a Welder and a Triskelion, just try to recur Triskelion and ping your opponent for the win!
Yeah that was very helpful Petal Collector! (do you actually collect Lotus Petals?)
It looks like I more or less was geaded towards mono red shop, the third option on your list, but MUD seems very interesting as well. I did some research and found this article
The only thing I did not agree with in the article was Triskelion. I do realize that I included 2 Trikes in my original deck, but all of the praise I hear about them are pre-M2010 rules, and this article is no exception. Back then, a 4/4 Trike could block a 7/7, assign 4 damage to the 7/7, then remove 3 counters to kill the 7/7. Since the new rules Trike can't really do that anymore, so I will take them out and replace them with 2 Karns (who really shine now that everything's an artifact, and he can still block Inkwell Leviathan till the cows come home), and I'll give 2 of Deaf's Sundering Titans a go.
So how about something like this for a MUD-aggro deck?
2) No real answer to Key/Vault in the MD. I'd like to have something like 2 Needles/Null Rods in the MD but what would I take out? Maybe Tangle Wire?
3) What else could I put in the sideboard? I've seen Leyline Of The Void. While it does absolutely destroy Ichorid, it also is a dead draw if I get it after my opening hand, so I opted for the one time use Tormod's Crypt instead (plus Tormod's Crypt was the uncommon/rare in the first booster pack I ever opened back in The Dark...aah memories...*sniffle*). Would Relic of Progenitus be overkill in the Ichorid hate department?
Triskelions are still very good at killing Goblin Welders, Dark Confidants and all of the creatures that Fish decks run. And really, you're not going to see many x/7s anyway (none except for Iona)
Triskelions are still very good at killing Goblin Welders, Dark Confidants and all of the creatures that Fish decks run. And really, you're not going to see many x/7s anyway (none except for Iona)
Absolutely, Triskelions are not bad creatures, I was just making a comment that Trikes got hurt by the M2010 changes. And the 7/7 monster was just a random situation I picked to demonstrate the changes that Triskelion went through.
The sundering titan might mess up my mana curve, but I think Metalworker + the shops can help me get it out quickly. (Although I just made this deck 15 minutes ago so I haven't playtested how effective they actually are yet :P)
Still, you would put the triskelions back in? +4 Trike, -2 Karn, -2 titan?
I'm not sure if 4 Tangle Wires are worth it, maybe -2 Tangle Wire, +2 Triskelion or something like that?
EDIT:
Actually...yeah, I'm going to do that..and also I'm going to do the needles instead of the rods
I still feel that Juggernaut is underpowered given the amount of bad ass that this deck can muster up early. I GOT IT! Su-Chi I think that card can do some seriously good stuff for you. And trust me dude, the Titans wreck some serious shop dude. there really is no downside if you arent running lands of the basic land type. and workshop is just stupidly awesome. I think this deck can definitely go the distance
I still feel that Juggernaut is underpowered given the amount of bad ass that this deck can muster up early. I GOT IT! Su-Chi I think that card can do some seriously good stuff for you. And trust me dude, the Titans wreck some serious shop dude. there really is no downside if you arent running lands of the basic land type. and workshop is just stupidly awesome. I think this deck can definitely go the distance
haha Su-Chi is cool. So maybe go something like -4 Juggernaut, +3 Su-chi, +1 Titan? Any other changes? (I know some changes like the SB might be meta dependent as always lol)
Before making a bunch of changes, try the various cards, see how they function on their own and what synergies they have with the deck.
Juggernaut may seem underpowered, but it is still 5 power for 4 mana. I prefer Juggernaut, as it is a faster clock with 5-power rather than 4-power. For the same mana cost, you get a creature that can win on its own in 1 fewer turn compared to Su-Chi. That's my preference; your experience may differ. Test the deck with Juggernaut, and then test with Su-Chi in place of Juggernaut. Pay attention to how many times the following things happen:
1) You would've won if Su-Chi (4 power) was Juggernaut (5 power).
2) You are actually using the Su-Chi mana.
You may even find that you want more beaters, and end up playing both Juggernaut and Su-Chi. Or you may want different creatures altogether and play neither of them, opting for more Karns, Trikes, others (like Razormane Masticore if you see a lot of fish). Again, test, test, test.
Karn lets you do some tricks, but if you are mainly including him b/c he can block Inkwell, check out what your meta plays. Many players have switched to Sphinx of the Steel Wind, and if that is the case in your area, then Karn will be blocking a lot less. He can still kill off Moxen and turn lock pieces into beaters, so definitely some utility there.
On Sundering Titan; it can be a wrecking, but in this deck you will be hardcasting it. See how this works out for you; if its good, then great. If you decide Titan doesn't work as well, consider going up to 4 Tangle Wires...its another lock piece that slows opponents down to give your beaters time to come down and do their thing before your opponent can build up enough mana to play Rebuild, bounce your entire board of artifacts, and then win.
This deck can definitely be competitive, as recent results show (5th and Top 16 in a 119-person tourney last week, 2 Top 8s in a 46-person tournament a couple weeks ago). With a tuned list, tight play, and maybe a little luck, this deck definitely has the potential to take down some tournaments for you.
OK, I'll shop making a ton of changes without playtesting, which will hopefully tonight
One thing I will do for playtesting's sake is I'll keep just 2 titans, and replace the Sculpting Steel in the SB with 2 more Tangle Wires and...idk a 3rd Crucible, that way I can compare the deck with 2 tangle wires with that of 4 tangle wires. Then I'll playtest the deck as is, then with 4 Su-Chi instead of Juggernauts and see how it plays out.
Thanks again for the help everyone, I'll let everyone know the results.
Well I did some playtesting and I have to say I'm very pleased with the deck. I am going to make some changes to the sideboard to add more Ichorid hate
-3 Sculpting Steel
+3 Relic of Progenitus (I realize some might prefer Leyline, but the fact that it is a dead draw if it comes up beyond your first turn turns me off to it)
One other change I was thinking about making was -2 Umezawa's Jitte" target="blank">Umezawa's Jitte, +2 Tangle Wire in the SB, not 100% sure though because the Jitte is very powerful
Ok, a couple of things. I do think you need goblin welder and here is why. Su-Chi gives you 4 mana when put into the graveyard, with welder you can sac your lotus or whatever else you so choose to give you mana, then you weld Su-Chi to your graveyard and exchange him with the lotus you just used...... which means you get the mana from su-chi, and you get the double lotus mana. That's a lot of free mana
and what do you do with all the free mana? you play SUNDERING TITAN and wreck shop.
Also goblin welder helps in so many more situations. for example if somebody tinkers for a time vault or Sphinx of the steel wind, or any other relevant artifact, you can weld that thing away with no problem.
If you need a way to get the colored mana I suggest using City of Brass or something to that effect because it cannot be hit by your own Sundering Titan.
Point is, I think Su-Chi should be a no brainer
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I have always been interested in playing vintage, but never had the opportunity to due to a lack of vintage players in my location. However, in two weeks I am going to be going to a college that is 15 minutes away from the location of a place I can play vintage at. Because of this, I am eager to make a competitive vintage deck now that I have the chance to use it. However, I am just now really studying all the archetypes and which matchups are good and it is a bit much to take in at once, so here I am asking for help
I've always liked Mishra's Workshop and being able to use it to play Trinisphere in turn 1 could be devastating against some decks. I looked into this a little more and I found the Mono Red Shop Aggro archetype, so I'm thinking something along the lines of...
4x Mishra's Workshop
4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
7x Mountain
3x Ancient Tomb
1x Tolerian Academy
Artifacts
1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Jet
1x Sol Ring
1x Mana Crypt
1x Trinisphere
4x Thorn of Amethyst
4x Chalice of the Void
2x Crucible of Worlds
4x Null Rod
3x Sword of Fire and Ice
4x Juggernaut
4x Goblin Welder
2x Triskelion
2x Karn, Silver Golem (Inkwell Leviathan blocker)
2x Gorilla Shaman
4x Tormod's Crypt
4x Magus of the Moon
3x Viashino Heretic
2x Lava Dart
2x Contract From Below? (lol just kidding...I have no idea what else to put in the SB though)
Should I put Magus of the Moon in MD? maybe SB some Null Rods? I really only half know what I'm doing here so any help from a pro would be greatly appreciated
Also this deck needs Metalworker. I don't think anyone will argue with free mana.
Null Rod should def be in the SB. However I suggest running it mainboard considering it won't really do much to affect you but it will shut down all the vault/key combo's that are just flying around everywhere.
Contract From Below is banned because it is an ante card so that needs to come out altogether.
Magus will really really hurt you more than help you for obvious reasons
you might want to throw in a Mana Vault as well considering the massive mana boost it gives you.
Hope this all helps
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Sundering Titan is awesome in theory, but how many competitive decks are running enough basic lands to make this a viable option? I feel like its effect may end up hurting me more than helping since I am running Mountains and my opponent may be running no basics (though I could use a fatty like this lol)
Metalworker is fantastic. Null Rod will make this card useless, but before it gets to that point the extra mana from Metalworker could be invaluable. That said, the issue of my Null Rods becomes a problem. Do I put 4 in my Main Deck? 4 in my Side, I did originally have 4 in the SB, but key/vault decks are so common at the moment that I just threw them in MD. Maybe 2 MD 2 SB?
Does that make sense at all? I hope it wasn't too confusing.
Not only is titan a 7/10 beat stick, but for the most part he leaves your lands unharmed while he just blows up your opponents. He can totally swing the game around and with all the lands he destroys. Also with Mishra's workshop and metalworker you can play him with relative ease.
As for worrying about the null rod's, the most it will do against you will shut off your mox and lotus. But since the Timevault/Voltaic Key combo is running rampant through vintage, null rod will shut that combo down as well. If you are still too worried that null rod will hurt more than it will help, Pithing Needle is a cheap and extremely easy alternative to play against the vault/key combo. Needle also shuts off the annoying tezzeret. It is an extremely versatile card in all formats
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The reason I chose Magus of the Moon for my SB was to counter decks like Oath, or really any deck that does not primarily contain red/artifacts. If every land in my side of the battlefield is a mountain, I *can* still get everything out, just slowly, whereas a Blue/Black deck not containing any basic islands or swamps might not be able to play anything if all they had access to was red mana.
Pithing Needle is a great option to consider in stead of Null Rod. The needle is 1 mana, and targets a specific card leaving my moxen/metal worker etc. The only disadvantage I can think of is that playing Pithing Needle requires me to know exactly what to shut down at the time of playing it. For example, if I don't know that my opponent has a vault/key combo going on (which I might not recognize before one or the other is played since I'm new to the format), they can easily play vault, play key, and activate key to start the infinite turn combo before I have the chance to play the Pithing Needle in my hand. However, my opponent could just as well play one or the other, not knowing that I have a needle. Also, after the first game I think I'd know what card to name with the needle.
also, what are your thoughts on Mishra's Factory, and if I take out the Null Rods Sensei's Divining Top or Memory Jar for this deck?
Thanks again for all your help and advice on this deck!
Stax leans very heavily on Goblin Welder to do lots of tricks and lock down your opponent. Many builds of Stax play some number of 5-color lands (usually City of Brass and Gemstone Mine) in order to play powerful restricted cards of every color, such as the black tutors, Balance, Tinker, etc. With Bazaar of Baghdad letting you draw cards and put artifacts in your graveyard for Welder, you can filter through your deck for what you need for a given situation. Instead of hardcasting artifacts such as Sundering Titan, you can just use Welder to bring them in and out of play. This lets you build a lock, maintain a lock, and otherwise disrupt your opponent's gameplan. This is the deck that is most likely to run a maindeck Sundering Titan.
MUD decks basically run no colored spells; as a result, they typically feature Metalworker since there is such a high concentration of artifacts, even when compared to other Workshop-based decks. This can allow for explosive lines of play, and even combos (with Staff of Domination). Typically MUD decks will be combo-oriented (with Staff) or aggro (fast artifact disruption + artifact creatures with equipment). Another bonus: since you are mono-artifacts, you don't have to worry about getting color-screwed.
Finally, there are the mono-colored aggro Workshop decks. These are usually mono-red, but other colors have been known to play too. Most of the time, this deck wins by combining a disruptive board of artifacts with beatdown by a Solemn Simulacrum/Triskelion carrying a Sword of Fire and Ice. Since the mono-red version can run Goblin Welder, this allows for typical Welder tricks. One of the classic Welder tricks is using Solemn Simulacrum as a recurring blocker/draw engine/land fetcher. This is the deck most likely to run Magus of the Moon in the main.
My advice to you is to keep your deck focused on a plan; there are so many tools to work with when you are playing Workshops that it is easy to dilute your deck. No matter which deck you choose to play, there are so many tricks and synergies that are easy to miss; so many ways to win that you may not spot at first. For example, say you are playing Mono-Red Shop Aggro, and you are attacking with a Solemn Simulacrum equipped with a Sword of Fire and Ice. You feel pretty good about the gamestate, until your opponent drops a Moat (not likely, but possible...that is the beauty of Vintage). Don't scoop...if you have a Welder and a Triskelion, just try to recur Triskelion and ping your opponent for the win!
Hope that was helpful, and good luck!
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It looks like I more or less was geaded towards mono red shop, the third option on your list, but MUD seems very interesting as well. I did some research and found this article
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/15408_So_Many_Insane_Plays_Building_a_Better_Beatdown_MUD.html
The only thing I did not agree with in the article was Triskelion. I do realize that I included 2 Trikes in my original deck, but all of the praise I hear about them are pre-M2010 rules, and this article is no exception. Back then, a 4/4 Trike could block a 7/7, assign 4 damage to the 7/7, then remove 3 counters to kill the 7/7. Since the new rules Trike can't really do that anymore, so I will take them out and replace them with 2 Karns (who really shine now that everything's an artifact, and he can still block Inkwell Leviathan till the cows come home), and I'll give 2 of Deaf's Sundering Titans a go.
So how about something like this for a MUD-aggro deck?
(see 2 posts down for updated version of this)
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
2 Mishra's Factory
2 City of Traitors
1 Tolarian Academy
Artifacts
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Memory Jar
1 Trinisphere
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Tangle Wire
4 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Metalworker
4 Juggernaut
2 Karn, Silver Golem
2 Sundering Titan
4 Null Rod (Pithing Needle?)
4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 ??
Three problems here
1) Pithing Needle or Null Rod?
2) No real answer to Key/Vault in the MD. I'd like to have something like 2 Needles/Null Rods in the MD but what would I take out? Maybe Tangle Wire?
3) What else could I put in the sideboard? I've seen Leyline Of The Void. While it does absolutely destroy Ichorid, it also is a dead draw if I get it after my opening hand, so I opted for the one time use Tormod's Crypt instead (plus Tormod's Crypt was the uncommon/rare in the first booster pack I ever opened back in The Dark...aah memories...*sniffle*). Would Relic of Progenitus be overkill in the Ichorid hate department?
Trade Thread
Modern
RWGBurnGWR
GUInfectUG
GRTronRG
UWGifts TronWU
URBGrixis DelverBRU
RGWZooWGR
Legacy
BUWTinFinsWUB
UROmniTellRU
BURTESRUB
GElves!G
GBPSIBG
RGBelcherGR
UBRGWDredgeWGRBU
UBAffinityBU
RBurnR
Vintage
UBGDoomsdayGBU
0Martello Shops0
GElves!G
UBTPSBU
UBelcherU
0Dredge0
Absolutely, Triskelions are not bad creatures, I was just making a comment that Trikes got hurt by the M2010 changes. And the 7/7 monster was just a random situation I picked to demonstrate the changes that Triskelion went through.
The sundering titan might mess up my mana curve, but I think Metalworker + the shops can help me get it out quickly. (Although I just made this deck 15 minutes ago so I haven't playtested how effective they actually are yet :P)
Still, you would put the triskelions back in? +4 Trike, -2 Karn, -2 titan?
I'm not sure if 4 Tangle Wires are worth it, maybe -2 Tangle Wire, +2 Triskelion or something like that?
EDIT:
Actually...yeah, I'm going to do that..and also I'm going to do the needles instead of the rods
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
2 Mishra's Factory
2 City of Traitors
1 Tolarian Academy
Artifacts
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Memory Jar
1 Trinisphere
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Tangle Wire
4 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Metalworker
4 Juggernaut
2 Karn, Silver Golem
2 Sundering Titan
2 Triskelion
4 Pithing Needle
4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Sculpting Steel (still don't know what to put here)
How do you think this deck would fare (after playtesting and fine tuning) in a competitive vintage tourney?
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haha Su-Chi is cool. So maybe go something like -4 Juggernaut, +3 Su-chi, +1 Titan? Any other changes? (I know some changes like the SB might be meta dependent as always lol)
Juggernaut may seem underpowered, but it is still 5 power for 4 mana. I prefer Juggernaut, as it is a faster clock with 5-power rather than 4-power. For the same mana cost, you get a creature that can win on its own in 1 fewer turn compared to Su-Chi. That's my preference; your experience may differ. Test the deck with Juggernaut, and then test with Su-Chi in place of Juggernaut. Pay attention to how many times the following things happen:
1) You would've won if Su-Chi (4 power) was Juggernaut (5 power).
2) You are actually using the Su-Chi mana.
You may even find that you want more beaters, and end up playing both Juggernaut and Su-Chi. Or you may want different creatures altogether and play neither of them, opting for more Karns, Trikes, others (like Razormane Masticore if you see a lot of fish). Again, test, test, test.
Karn lets you do some tricks, but if you are mainly including him b/c he can block Inkwell, check out what your meta plays. Many players have switched to Sphinx of the Steel Wind, and if that is the case in your area, then Karn will be blocking a lot less. He can still kill off Moxen and turn lock pieces into beaters, so definitely some utility there.
On Sundering Titan; it can be a wrecking, but in this deck you will be hardcasting it. See how this works out for you; if its good, then great. If you decide Titan doesn't work as well, consider going up to 4 Tangle Wires...its another lock piece that slows opponents down to give your beaters time to come down and do their thing before your opponent can build up enough mana to play Rebuild, bounce your entire board of artifacts, and then win.
This deck can definitely be competitive, as recent results show (5th and Top 16 in a 119-person tourney last week, 2 Top 8s in a 46-person tournament a couple weeks ago). With a tuned list, tight play, and maybe a little luck, this deck definitely has the potential to take down some tournaments for you.
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One thing I will do for playtesting's sake is I'll keep just 2 titans, and replace the Sculpting Steel in the SB with 2 more Tangle Wires and...idk a 3rd Crucible, that way I can compare the deck with 2 tangle wires with that of 4 tangle wires. Then I'll playtest the deck as is, then with 4 Su-Chi instead of Juggernauts and see how it plays out.
Thanks again for the help everyone, I'll let everyone know the results.
-3 Sculpting Steel
+3 Relic of Progenitus (I realize some might prefer Leyline, but the fact that it is a dead draw if it comes up beyond your first turn turns me off to it)
One other change I was thinking about making was -2 Umezawa's Jitte" target="blank">Umezawa's Jitte, +2 Tangle Wire in the SB, not 100% sure though because the Jitte is very powerful
3x Goblin Welder
3x Triskelion
2x Karn
3x Razormane Masticore (At major tourneys, he goes to my SB)
1x Sundering Titan
I tend to run my version of 5cStax, but sometimes will switch it up.
and what do you do with all the free mana? you play SUNDERING TITAN and wreck shop.
Also goblin welder helps in so many more situations. for example if somebody tinkers for a time vault or Sphinx of the steel wind, or any other relevant artifact, you can weld that thing away with no problem.
If you need a way to get the colored mana I suggest using City of Brass or something to that effect because it cannot be hit by your own Sundering Titan.
Point is, I think Su-Chi should be a no brainer
Kickass signature Courtesy of the boys at Heroes of the Plane studios
Kickass signature Courtesy of the boys at Heroes of the Plane studios
+4 Lodestone Golem when it's released in Worldwake