So some of the guys from Waterbury ran the following list @ SCG Rochester, with Ray Robbilard taking 17th (of 108) with the list...
as a former 7/10 player and somebody who has always liked slaver (even though I dont play it) and of course I play stax, this deck list looked nice to me...
what changes need to be made though and what do you guys think of it?
A Vintage deck, by Ray Robillard
17th place at a StarCityGames Power 9 Tournament tournament in Rochester, New York, United States on 2005-12-11
Maindeck:
Artifacts
1 Black Lotus (Restricted in Vintage)
3 Crucible Of Worlds
2 Darksteel Ingot
1 Gilded Lotus
1 Mana Crypt (Restricted in Vintage)
1 Mana Vault (Restricted in Vintage)
1 Memory Jar (Restricted in Vintage)
1 Mox Emerald (Restricted in Vintage)
1 Mox Jet (Restricted in Vintage)
1 Mox Pearl (Restricted in Vintage)
1 Mox Ruby (Restricted in Vintage)
1 Mox Sapphire (Restricted in Vintage)
1 Sol Ring (Restricted in Vintage)
4 Tangle Wire
1 Trinisphere (Restricted in Vintage)
Artifact Creatures
1 Sundering Titan
1 Triskelion
Creatures
4 Goblin Welder
2 Gorilla Shaman
Enchantments
1 Fastbond (Restricted in Vintage)
Instants
1 Ancestral Recall (Restricted in Vintage)
1 Crop Rotation (Restricted in Vintage)
1 Frantic Search (Restricted in Vintage)
1 Vampiric Tutor (Restricted in Vintage)
Legendary Artifacts
1 Mindslaver
Legendary Artifact Creatures
1 Karn, Silver Golem
Sorceries
1 Balance (Restricted in Vintage)
1 Demonic Tutor (Restricted in Vintage)
1 Time Walk (Restricted in Vintage)
1 Timetwister (Restricted in Vintage)
1 Tinker (Restricted in Vintage)
1 Wheel Of Fortune (Restricted in Vintage)
1 Windfall (Restricted in Vintage)
Lands
1 Barbarian Ring
3 City Of Brass
3 Gemstone Mine
4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Strip Mine (Restricted in Vintage)
4 Wasteland
Legendary Lands
1 Tolarian Academy (Restricted in Vintage)
Sideboard:
3 Chalice Of The Void
2 Viashino Heretic
1 Aura Fracture
3 Choke
2 Seal Of Cleansing
1 Burnout
1 Darkblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
The part where this list is scary is turns 1 and 2...you have to have some sort of mana denial working for you since you should be exploding for massive advantage by turn 3. Since this deck is slightly weak turn 1 and 2 what do you guys suggest for improovements to the list...
I am not an expert on the deck but the 2 darksteel ingots look kinda odd. Would'nt glided lotus or another city of brass be better? Not sure if tangle wires are the best choice either. The deck looks soild in general though.
Well...a little explanation...since I was confused by his choices at first too...
Darksteel Ingot is a first turn way to switch a workshop only hand into a way to play turn 1 welder or other such card...
Since welder is important this works out to be a generally good play. Also its a way to get this multi-color artifact down before a mana drain can hit it...the odds of doing this with Gilded Lotus are slim...While the ingots look janky, they are...heh, but they do work suprisingly well for the deck....I think this was a good call rather than just running 3 gilded lotus like other 7/10 decks did in the past...
Tanglewires are also another correct choice for the deck...this is a weird reply for me since ive gone over all of this on our teams boards, so bear with me if I dont explain enough, heh...
Tangle wire comes in in this 7/10 deck to replace MD chalice...why? you might ask yourself...well its because this deck needs to survive (and only survive, even barely) to turn 3...heh...tangle wire does this quite nicely by keeping opponents off of precious main phase mana, in a similar light wastelands and gorilla shaman do the same thing...all of which are uber important for this deck...by turn 3 now though you should have 12340395090153802357 mana availible (all mana amounts approximate, heh) and you should be able to drop crucible and shaman and destroy the opponents board and drop a fatty into play all around turn 3 or 4 (generally you have the opponents board wiped turn 3 and turn 4 threat to clean up the job) Draw 7s refil your hand on one of these turns also, which gives you a big advantage since you have that 1223423078956932934 mana and your opponent doesnt have anything...yay...
thats a little exagerated of course, but thats how things go with the deck...its fun anyways and seems to work okay...of course more testing needs to happen, and something needs to be done to shore up the Oath matchup....
Out of curiosity, what is the difference between this and Gilded Claw?
More on topic, this deck looks pretty good, but also pretty tight. You really need to get to turn 3, which can be tough in some instances. For instance, what does this deck do when confrunted with Grim Long? What about a first turn oath? Sure you have SB Chalices, but it seems like a pretty important problem, although I may be mistaken. But decks that can combo out landless (like Grim Long). Also, whats the deal with Burnout? Isn't pyroblast better?
wouldnt the whole tanglewire/chalice dealy be more a question of your metagame? i mean, if theres like a ton of 1st turn killing going on, yeah, chaliced prolly be better, but tanglewire works against a lot more decks. (altho i still think its a lil weird not having chalice in a stax deck, even a staxless one. :tongue3:) or am i justway off here?
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Chalice does depend on the metagame however there are alot more control decks then combo decks being played now.
The main difference between this in gilded claw that I can see is that gilded claw runs meddling mage and metalworker. I think this list is much more soild then gilded claw too.
There are a few differences between this and Gilded Claw, but it boils down to the fact that they are BOTH 7/10 decks at heart...
Tangle Wire is better at buying time than Chalice is...this is the only reason tanglewire is better here...With a big list of fat drain targets in the deck the only place that chalice is better is if you can resolve one set to 2 turn 1 against control...
Remember what I was saying about just surviving until turn 3 or 4? Tanglewire allows for this when on the draw turn 1 or turn 2 for you where chalice on turn 2 or on the draw is generally only so so...
also Glix, I did say that this has a rough time with a quickly resolved Oath (and could conceivably have a rough time against GrimLong...with some exceptions of course...) This needs to be addressed IMO for the deck to be successful...I think Oath is the primary concern, as even with tanglewires tapping them down you have to be recuring them with welder and stuff long enough to get your own beats on...this can be tough at times...doable, but tough...
Im not sure on Ray's SB choices (Burnout)...it could be just that he was looking for the all important tech (publish or perish mentality, everybody wants to be the first person doing something right?)
@ mis_bun...
Yes a lot of people think not running chalice in a workshop deck is weird...but chalice was never used too often back in the trinisphere days, and even post restriction the World Championship deck ran 3 chalice only in the SB...
Staxless Stax is a weird name for the deck, and im not sure if that is how Ray titled it or if JDizzle named it that...it should be classified as 7/10 instead...I think the title is misleading..
@ Fireballchannel...
I think the list is a bit better than gilded claw as well...the reason why it seems more solid is because it really is...Dan Carp (AngryPheldagrif) likes the whole Diversity thing and tends to mix up his decks with a lot of different cards that can make the decks feel loose and un-refined, they are generally really good builds though, but can leave something to be desired (stability and feel) some of the time...
Hows about Glacial Chasm to shore up the oath matchup? With fastbond/crucible out it should hold the fort until you can gain control, not to mention its uncounterable.
Can 1/2 Gifts Ungiven find a slot in the deck? It seems like this deck is capable of getting the mana for it, and it can search out some great piles. With so many 1-ofs and a huge amount of leathel stacks, it seems like a good card for this. Just speculation, however, I'll try and test it.
Chasm is interesting but does it deserve a maindeck slot?
One card I have been fooling around with as a replacement to ingot is spectral searchlight. It has the added benafit of being able to be mana burn your opponent. The indestrictablity of ingot may be better though.
My absolute favorite first turn play with the deck is Workshop/Ingot/Welder....
I thought Ingot was bad and immediatly set about trying to change it when I saw the deck at first...but after some testing I see the value in it, and think that it was probably the correct choice...
Does Chasm deserve a MD slot? Im not sure...maybe...depends on your meta would be my thinking...
Heres a fun one for you though...if you are going to run chasm and strip and b-ring...then hows about tossing in a zuran orb or two for some infinite combo fun with fastbond, heh....a zoo conversional SB or alternate MD win, heh...savage...good? I dunno...but definatly savage..
Ingot and searchlight are functionaly the same so workshop/searchlight/welder is still possible. The issue is indestrictability vs. the ability to mana burn your opponent.
I agree chasm is probably a meta thing, I am currently running it becasue the decks I play are all casual aggro/burn decks, *sigh*.
Running zuran orb may be going to far into the realm of jankness, although it has good synergy with balance.
well its got all sorts of infinte combo goodness with chasm, strip mine, crucible, fastbond...it could be juicy, heh...Zoo wasnt an amazing deck, but I suppose you could work the combo in somehow, heh...youre already running every card in the combo except orb...
Indestrcutible mana bases are a good thing, burn should be irrelevant. IF you could aim that burn at a creature it would be hot...heh.
I disagree with the ingot being worse than the searchlight. If only for the indestructable ability, you should run those and not the searchlights. This makes the deck less fragile.
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as a former 7/10 player and somebody who has always liked slaver (even though I dont play it) and of course I play stax, this deck list looked nice to me...
what changes need to be made though and what do you guys think of it?
A Vintage deck, by Ray Robillard
17th place at a StarCityGames Power 9 Tournament tournament in Rochester, New York, United States on 2005-12-11
Maindeck:
Artifacts
1 Black Lotus (Restricted in Vintage)
3 Crucible Of Worlds
2 Darksteel Ingot
1 Gilded Lotus
1 Mana Crypt (Restricted in Vintage)
1 Mana Vault (Restricted in Vintage)
1 Memory Jar (Restricted in Vintage)
1 Mox Emerald (Restricted in Vintage)
1 Mox Jet (Restricted in Vintage)
1 Mox Pearl (Restricted in Vintage)
1 Mox Ruby (Restricted in Vintage)
1 Mox Sapphire (Restricted in Vintage)
1 Sol Ring (Restricted in Vintage)
4 Tangle Wire
1 Trinisphere (Restricted in Vintage)
Artifact Creatures
1 Sundering Titan
1 Triskelion
Creatures
4 Goblin Welder
2 Gorilla Shaman
Enchantments
1 Fastbond (Restricted in Vintage)
Instants
1 Ancestral Recall (Restricted in Vintage)
1 Crop Rotation (Restricted in Vintage)
1 Frantic Search (Restricted in Vintage)
1 Vampiric Tutor (Restricted in Vintage)
Legendary Artifacts
1 Mindslaver
Legendary Artifact Creatures
1 Karn, Silver Golem
Sorceries
1 Balance (Restricted in Vintage)
1 Demonic Tutor (Restricted in Vintage)
1 Time Walk (Restricted in Vintage)
1 Timetwister (Restricted in Vintage)
1 Tinker (Restricted in Vintage)
1 Wheel Of Fortune (Restricted in Vintage)
1 Windfall (Restricted in Vintage)
Lands
1 Barbarian Ring
3 City Of Brass
3 Gemstone Mine
4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Strip Mine (Restricted in Vintage)
4 Wasteland
Legendary Lands
1 Tolarian Academy (Restricted in Vintage)
Sideboard:
3 Chalice Of The Void
2 Viashino Heretic
1 Aura Fracture
3 Choke
2 Seal Of Cleansing
1 Burnout
1 Darkblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
The part where this list is scary is turns 1 and 2...you have to have some sort of mana denial working for you since you should be exploding for massive advantage by turn 3. Since this deck is slightly weak turn 1 and 2 what do you guys suggest for improovements to the list...
Darksteel Ingot is a first turn way to switch a workshop only hand into a way to play turn 1 welder or other such card...
Since welder is important this works out to be a generally good play. Also its a way to get this multi-color artifact down before a mana drain can hit it...the odds of doing this with Gilded Lotus are slim...While the ingots look janky, they are...heh, but they do work suprisingly well for the deck....I think this was a good call rather than just running 3 gilded lotus like other 7/10 decks did in the past...
Tanglewires are also another correct choice for the deck...this is a weird reply for me since ive gone over all of this on our teams boards, so bear with me if I dont explain enough, heh...
Tangle wire comes in in this 7/10 deck to replace MD chalice...why? you might ask yourself...well its because this deck needs to survive (and only survive, even barely) to turn 3...heh...tangle wire does this quite nicely by keeping opponents off of precious main phase mana, in a similar light wastelands and gorilla shaman do the same thing...all of which are uber important for this deck...by turn 3 now though you should have 12340395090153802357 mana availible (all mana amounts approximate, heh) and you should be able to drop crucible and shaman and destroy the opponents board and drop a fatty into play all around turn 3 or 4 (generally you have the opponents board wiped turn 3 and turn 4 threat to clean up the job) Draw 7s refil your hand on one of these turns also, which gives you a big advantage since you have that 1223423078956932934 mana and your opponent doesnt have anything...yay...
thats a little exagerated of course, but thats how things go with the deck...its fun anyways and seems to work okay...of course more testing needs to happen, and something needs to be done to shore up the Oath matchup....
More on topic, this deck looks pretty good, but also pretty tight. You really need to get to turn 3, which can be tough in some instances. For instance, what does this deck do when confrunted with Grim Long? What about a first turn oath? Sure you have SB Chalices, but it seems like a pretty important problem, although I may be mistaken. But decks that can combo out landless (like Grim Long). Also, whats the deal with Burnout? Isn't pyroblast better?
"How inbred do you have to be to think that making shepards pie with a graham cracker crust is a good idea?"
"I said I thought it was weird, but you wanted meat in a freaking pie, so eat up."
The main difference between this in gilded claw that I can see is that gilded claw runs meddling mage and metalworker. I think this list is much more soild then gilded claw too.
Tangle Wire is better at buying time than Chalice is...this is the only reason tanglewire is better here...With a big list of fat drain targets in the deck the only place that chalice is better is if you can resolve one set to 2 turn 1 against control...
Remember what I was saying about just surviving until turn 3 or 4? Tanglewire allows for this when on the draw turn 1 or turn 2 for you where chalice on turn 2 or on the draw is generally only so so...
also Glix, I did say that this has a rough time with a quickly resolved Oath (and could conceivably have a rough time against GrimLong...with some exceptions of course...) This needs to be addressed IMO for the deck to be successful...I think Oath is the primary concern, as even with tanglewires tapping them down you have to be recuring them with welder and stuff long enough to get your own beats on...this can be tough at times...doable, but tough...
Im not sure on Ray's SB choices (Burnout)...it could be just that he was looking for the all important tech (publish or perish mentality, everybody wants to be the first person doing something right?)
@ mis_bun...
Yes a lot of people think not running chalice in a workshop deck is weird...but chalice was never used too often back in the trinisphere days, and even post restriction the World Championship deck ran 3 chalice only in the SB...
Staxless Stax is a weird name for the deck, and im not sure if that is how Ray titled it or if JDizzle named it that...it should be classified as 7/10 instead...I think the title is misleading..
@ Fireballchannel...
I think the list is a bit better than gilded claw as well...the reason why it seems more solid is because it really is...Dan Carp (AngryPheldagrif) likes the whole Diversity thing and tends to mix up his decks with a lot of different cards that can make the decks feel loose and un-refined, they are generally really good builds though, but can leave something to be desired (stability and feel) some of the time...
Can 1/2 Gifts Ungiven find a slot in the deck? It seems like this deck is capable of getting the mana for it, and it can search out some great piles. With so many 1-ofs and a huge amount of leathel stacks, it seems like a good card for this. Just speculation, however, I'll try and test it.
Im not sure about Gifts...it would probably be able to replace like Windfall or something...
One card I have been fooling around with as a replacement to ingot is spectral searchlight. It has the added benafit of being able to be mana burn your opponent. The indestrictablity of ingot may be better though.
I thought Ingot was bad and immediatly set about trying to change it when I saw the deck at first...but after some testing I see the value in it, and think that it was probably the correct choice...
Does Chasm deserve a MD slot? Im not sure...maybe...depends on your meta would be my thinking...
Heres a fun one for you though...if you are going to run chasm and strip and b-ring...then hows about tossing in a zuran orb or two for some infinite combo fun with fastbond, heh....a zoo conversional SB or alternate MD win, heh...savage...good? I dunno...but definatly savage..
I agree chasm is probably a meta thing, I am currently running it becasue the decks I play are all casual aggro/burn decks, *sigh*.
Running zuran orb may be going to far into the realm of jankness, although it has good synergy with balance.
Indestrcutible mana bases are a good thing, burn should be irrelevant. IF you could aim that burn at a creature it would be hot...heh.