So, Dredge Storm is possibly the worst, but most fun, deck I've ever constructed. In Legacy, it is half the speed of either Dredge or Storm, and open to twice as much hate.
But in Vintage, there are different tools.
There is an old Oath Storm deck from 2004 that used Eternal Witness+Yawgmoth's Will for a disgustingly lethal Tendrils turn 2 or 3. I want to meddle with this deck a bit and abuse one of my favorite new cards. So guys, please help me put together the rest of this deck.
This deck seems like it could do some serious damage if properly constructed. First of all, and maybe most importantly, it takes the disadvantage of Legacy DredgeStorm and turns it into a plus: games 2 and 3. They can side in Leyline of the Void/Sanctity, but you can side in Oath creatures and just stomp their face. They can side in Cage (and probably will), but you can side into a stronger straight-up Storm plan and just Tendrils them. They can side in Mindbreak Trap and Flusterstorm, but again, maybe you took out Tendrils and brought in a giant Jellyfish, and their sideboard is useless.
On to other cool parts of this deck. For one thing, you should technically be able to balance the typical Storm stuff so that you have less filler. Once your Oath engine goes off, you only need a few well-chosen pieces to guarentee a kill. Of course, you have to temper this thinking with the fact Oath is just an engine, and sometimes, you just need to play a few rituals and Tendrils from hand.
Obviously, the weakest point of the combo is the upkeep right after the Oath trigger resolves; you now MUST use Memory's Journey to not die, and this bottlenecks you right into countermagic. For this reason, it might be wise to run 2 Memory's Journey maindeck so that you have a better chance of pushing one through.
So this is a rough skeleton of the deck with all the basic, necessary stuff and a couple flex slots. I wish I could fit more counter-hate in the maindeck, such as Forces, but I don't know that it can be supported. One incredibly cool and techy option may be a single Xantid Swarm.
Please, let me hear what you think about it and how to finish/improve it.
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Slowly breaking.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I have goldfished a little bit after filling out the last couple slots.
Mostly I've discovered that it is moderately consistent with normal Storm wins; play a mox or two, a couple rituals and a tutor, etc.
Oath wins are 99.9% gauranteed if you get a Memory's Journey. You can put exactly the card you need on top (usually Rite of Flame or Black Lotus) and then go off.
As I said, a balance needs to be found between running a full compliment of rituals for a normal Storm deck, and running only what is necessary for an Oath win. I think Rite of Flame may get the cut. I run it because Oath-->Journey-->Rite is exactly PiF mana, but Black Lotus can usually do the job as well since I should have 2 lands+a mana rock.
As for counter protection, I think a singleton Swarm may be the way to go. I'll test maindeck and sideboard; I hate losing the novelty of being creatureless, but it may be worth it. My only concern being that he doesn't have haste.
Ad Nauseam is just another engine. Despite the cool tech, this is a Storm deck, and Oath is just one of its engines.
Thank you for your thoughts and questions! =)
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Slowly breaking.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
If you add swarm, then Oath may wiff and do nothing for you the first time when you want need to kill someone that turn. I suggest another duress.
Swarm can't win the same turn either way. He has to wait to attack, at which point I dump the rest of my library.
My only reason for thinking of him over Duress/Spell Pierce is that I don't need to have him in hand to go off. Duress doesn't protect Past in Flames very well if it's in my yard...
Ok, updated list and some [very] limited testing info!
So, a few about the new list. Going to 4 Wish and moving around the rituals and Past in Flames has given a much stronger "pure Storm" presence. I've won several games without my opponent even seeing an Oath, and then simply Oath'd it up in game 2 to a shocked and dead opponent.
On that note, the sideboard mind games work exactly as I hoped. One Maverick opponent sided in K-Grips while I sided out Oath, and they sat dead in his hand while I Wheeled into Memory Jar into Tendrils.
The most complicated part of the deck is the Memory's Journey choices. What do you shuffle in? Can you win right now, or will it take a turn? Do you need a third card to ensure you don't mill out? One pile I made ended up being triple Burning Wish. The first one got Pyroclasm to kill Thalia, the second one got Past in Flames, and then the third one kept me from dying while I cast Past in Flames from hand.
I may ditch Spell Pierce to move Tinker/Jar into the maindeck, but I haven't decided. Pierce has been solid in other combo matchups, and I haven't faced control yet.
The sideboard may need some cleaning up. This is just what I threw together this evening so I'd have Wish targets to test with.
The original Oath Storm deck featured Eternal Witness, which I think may be a slightly superior option. It lets me grab a non-Instant/Sorcery piece and it also works when Oath hits Witness too early and I have to wait a turn.
The reason I like the idea of Xantid Swarm is that any Oath-Storm target is usually going to delay the combo a turn. Swarm will guarantee that I am uninteractive while Snapcaster/Witness both leave room for disruption.
Of course, I only like any of these from the sideboard in counter-heavy matchups. Otherwise all they do is limit your ability to go off the same turn you Oath.
EDIT: For what it's worth, just beat an Oath 'n Tell deck 3-0. Game 1 I mulled to 4, he SnT'd out a jellyfish, and I combo'd on my following turn. Game 2 I used his own Oath to go off.
Anybody still interested in this? I've beat a few more decks since the last post. Mostly Oath "mirrors", there seems to be a lot of Oath around right now.
The sideboard plan has been working perfectly. When you combo off with Oath game 1, they side in graveyard hate and let Oath through the countermagic so they can stop Journey instead. Then you flop over a free Emrakul. Or Tinker out a Blightsteel Colossus.
Or, if you expect cage and don't feel like tutoring for Beast Within/Recall, side into Storm. They suddenly have this chunk of cards devoted to Oath hate, and you have no Oaths. I stormed out against a guy with Tendrils game 2 while he was holding 2 K-Grips in hand.
EDIT: Do people think Spell Pierce could be REBs without too much trouble? I guess it comes down to how I feel about not countering combos in exchange for always countering Force.
Long time no update. Here's my current list, it's running a lot smoother.
Wish-->Balance has been an insane line of play, generally leading to 6-for-1s or better.
The third Pierce has made a pretty decent difference, I've been much safer going off through countermagic.
Moving Tendrils to the sideboard was just to make room, but it does lower my average AN losses by a fair amount. It's not too dangerous preboard, since my plan is to cast my entire deck anyway and quadruple Duress into Burning Wish will most likely get there. Postboard it's a little scary only having one Storm spell and being on the all-out Storm plan (if I sided to that).
But in Vintage, there are different tools.
There is an old Oath Storm deck from 2004 that used Eternal Witness+Yawgmoth's Will for a disgustingly lethal Tendrils turn 2 or 3. I want to meddle with this deck a bit and abuse one of my favorite new cards. So guys, please help me put together the rest of this deck.
2 Past in Flames
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Grim Tutor
1 Time Vault
1 Tendrils of Agony
3 Burning Wish
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Opal
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Lotus Petal
3 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Memory's Journey
4 Forbidden Orchard
Sideboard:
-Oath Targets
-1-3 Beast Within
-Wish Targets
This deck seems like it could do some serious damage if properly constructed. First of all, and maybe most importantly, it takes the disadvantage of Legacy DredgeStorm and turns it into a plus: games 2 and 3. They can side in Leyline of the Void/Sanctity, but you can side in Oath creatures and just stomp their face. They can side in Cage (and probably will), but you can side into a stronger straight-up Storm plan and just Tendrils them. They can side in Mindbreak Trap and Flusterstorm, but again, maybe you took out Tendrils and brought in a giant Jellyfish, and their sideboard is useless.
On to other cool parts of this deck. For one thing, you should technically be able to balance the typical Storm stuff so that you have less filler. Once your Oath engine goes off, you only need a few well-chosen pieces to guarentee a kill. Of course, you have to temper this thinking with the fact Oath is just an engine, and sometimes, you just need to play a few rituals and Tendrils from hand.
Obviously, the weakest point of the combo is the upkeep right after the Oath trigger resolves; you now MUST use Memory's Journey to not die, and this bottlenecks you right into countermagic. For this reason, it might be wise to run 2 Memory's Journey maindeck so that you have a better chance of pushing one through.
So this is a rough skeleton of the deck with all the basic, necessary stuff and a couple flex slots. I wish I could fit more counter-hate in the maindeck, such as Forces, but I don't know that it can be supported. One incredibly cool and techy option may be a single Xantid Swarm.
Please, let me hear what you think about it and how to finish/improve it.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
Mostly I've discovered that it is moderately consistent with normal Storm wins; play a mox or two, a couple rituals and a tutor, etc.
Oath wins are 99.9% gauranteed if you get a Memory's Journey. You can put exactly the card you need on top (usually Rite of Flame or Black Lotus) and then go off.
As I said, a balance needs to be found between running a full compliment of rituals for a normal Storm deck, and running only what is necessary for an Oath win. I think Rite of Flame may get the cut. I run it because Oath-->Journey-->Rite is exactly PiF mana, but Black Lotus can usually do the job as well since I should have 2 lands+a mana rock.
As for counter protection, I think a singleton Swarm may be the way to go. I'll test maindeck and sideboard; I hate losing the novelty of being creatureless, but it may be worth it. My only concern being that he doesn't have haste.
Ad Nauseam is just another engine. Despite the cool tech, this is a Storm deck, and Oath is just one of its engines.
Thank you for your thoughts and questions! =)
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
Top 8'd modern states with tarmo-twin
Swarm can't win the same turn either way. He has to wait to attack, at which point I dump the rest of my library.
My only reason for thinking of him over Duress/Spell Pierce is that I don't need to have him in hand to go off. Duress doesn't protect Past in Flames very well if it's in my yard...
Ok, updated list and some [very] limited testing info!
1 Past in Flames
1 Yawgmoth's Will
2 Memory's Journey
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Brainstorm
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Grim Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
4 Burning Wish
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Beast Within
1 Hurkyl's Recall
4 Duress
2 Spell Pierce
2 Cabal Ritual
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Opal
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Lotus Petal
1 Black Lotus
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Forbidden Orchard
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Beast Within
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Past in Flames
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Dragon's Breath
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Tinker
1 Pyroclasm
1 Memory Jar
So, a few about the new list. Going to 4 Wish and moving around the rituals and Past in Flames has given a much stronger "pure Storm" presence. I've won several games without my opponent even seeing an Oath, and then simply Oath'd it up in game 2 to a shocked and dead opponent.
On that note, the sideboard mind games work exactly as I hoped. One Maverick opponent sided in K-Grips while I sided out Oath, and they sat dead in his hand while I Wheeled into Memory Jar into Tendrils.
The most complicated part of the deck is the Memory's Journey choices. What do you shuffle in? Can you win right now, or will it take a turn? Do you need a third card to ensure you don't mill out? One pile I made ended up being triple Burning Wish. The first one got Pyroclasm to kill Thalia, the second one got Past in Flames, and then the third one kept me from dying while I cast Past in Flames from hand.
I may ditch Spell Pierce to move Tinker/Jar into the maindeck, but I haven't decided. Pierce has been solid in other combo matchups, and I haven't faced control yet.
The sideboard may need some cleaning up. This is just what I threw together this evening so I'd have Wish targets to test with.
Merged Double Post-Urweak
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
The reason I like the idea of Xantid Swarm is that any Oath-Storm target is usually going to delay the combo a turn. Swarm will guarantee that I am uninteractive while Snapcaster/Witness both leave room for disruption.
Of course, I only like any of these from the sideboard in counter-heavy matchups. Otherwise all they do is limit your ability to go off the same turn you Oath.
EDIT: For what it's worth, just beat an Oath 'n Tell deck 3-0. Game 1 I mulled to 4, he SnT'd out a jellyfish, and I combo'd on my following turn. Game 2 I used his own Oath to go off.
Anybody still interested in this? I've beat a few more decks since the last post. Mostly Oath "mirrors", there seems to be a lot of Oath around right now.
The sideboard plan has been working perfectly. When you combo off with Oath game 1, they side in graveyard hate and let Oath through the countermagic so they can stop Journey instead. Then you flop over a free Emrakul. Or Tinker out a Blightsteel Colossus.
Or, if you expect cage and don't feel like tutoring for Beast Within/Recall, side into Storm. They suddenly have this chunk of cards devoted to Oath hate, and you have no Oaths. I stormed out against a guy with Tendrils game 2 while he was holding 2 K-Grips in hand.
EDIT: Do people think Spell Pierce could be REBs without too much trouble? I guess it comes down to how I feel about not countering combos in exchange for always countering Force.
Long time no update. Here's my current list, it's running a lot smoother.
1 Past in Flames
1 Yawgmoth's Will
2 Memory's Journey
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Regrowth
4 Burning Wish
1 Beast Within
1 Hurkyl's Recall
4 Duress
3 Spell Pierce
2 Cabal Ritual
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Opal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Lotus Petal
1 Black Lotus
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Forbidden Orchard
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Grim Tutor
1 Tinker
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Shattering Spree
1 Balance
1 Past in Flames
1 Pyroclasm
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Dragon Breath
1 Memory Jar
1 Necropotence
2 Beast Within
The third Pierce has made a pretty decent difference, I've been much safer going off through countermagic.
Moving Tendrils to the sideboard was just to make room, but it does lower my average AN losses by a fair amount. It's not too dangerous preboard, since my plan is to cast my entire deck anyway and quadruple Duress into Burning Wish will most likely get there. Postboard it's a little scary only having one Storm spell and being on the all-out Storm plan (if I sided to that).
Merged Triple Post - Urweak
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.