I've been looking at the interaction between Phyrexian Altar and Nether Traitor and I'm trying to see if I can build a viable and competitive Vintage deck that utilizes (but does not necessarily focus or rely on) these two cards. I realise this combo may be too weak and not stand up to established Vintage decks, but I'd like to at least try. Please, if you're going to provide criticism (which I welcome), at least ensure it's constructive and try suggest other options. I want to make this deck powerful on game 2, not just as a surprise on game 1. Heavy support is therefore needed for the combo.
I wanted to run a straight black version, but it seems way too limited in terms of anti-hate. Adding white and including Pull From Eternity and Vindicate will help against the problem cards already mentioned. However, if anyone has better colour suggestions, please share them.
If I understand this combo correctly, you need 2 Traitors to start the loop. I'll discard dredge, because you can't improve what's already established in the archetype. I'll go with a Blue-Black shell with the usual suspects, and probably find room anywhere for Intuition and the recently unrestricted Frantic Search. Also, Bloodghast can help you start the loop. For the kill, I'll go definitely with the bridges.
I'm wondering how you're planning to use Bridge from Below + Leyline of the Void once you start the loop.
You can run the combo with two Traitors or a single Traitor and a Genesis Chamber.
Helm of Obedience works with Leyline of the Void allowing you to endlessly mill a single opponent, paying 1 for X (as opposed to being able to do this to any number of players using Bitter Ordeal off the loop).
By sacrificing the zombie tokens produced by Bridge from Below to Phyrexian Altar, the deck is able to produce a potentially infinite amount of coloured mana. Use this to cast Maga, Traitor to Mortals for infinite life loss.
I know how the Obey-Line combo works, thanks. But Leyline does nothing on its own together with Bridges as your former message suggests. Maybe you forgot to include Helm in that line.
Why don't you try posting your decklist? Perhaps we can move on forward from there.
Read both cards again - Leyline stops Bridge from being exiled from your graveyard and Bridge uses the loop to make infinite 2/2 zombies. I'd like to either uses an infinite amount of 2/2 tokens, find a way to give them haste or use them with the Altar for mana to fuel cards like Maga. Now looking for suggestions on what to do with these zombies.
I'll post a rough list later tonight, still tweaking the black white version. My main issue is that my lists are quite weak if the combo fails - which is why I'm seeking assistance.
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"If it moves, torch it. If it doesn't move, kick it until it moves, then torch it." Tom Mayo
The Helm was just another suggested option for the deck, but it has nothing to do with the infinite combo, just that it works with the Leyline (which could help feed off the combo).
I fear at a cost of 4, the Helm may be too slow for this deck.
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"If it moves, torch it. If it doesn't move, kick it until it moves, then torch it." Tom Mayo
Nokos - maybe I am wrong here because you are including other cards in your combo but you realize that sacrificing Zombie Tokens from Bridge from Below is not infinite? Bridge only generates new Zombie tokens from NON-Token sacrifices. Now I guess if you already have infinite Zombies from some other means then you can generate infinite mana. But again there are simpler ways to create infinite Zombies.
As to the initial combo of 2 Nether Shadow + Phrexian Altar, you aren't generating infinite mana you are simply able to play your loop over and over. Cards like Bitter Ordeal will make this more playable but you are a 4 card combo. I guess I am criticizing the initial combo, but again it does seem that it's a three card loop that does nothing on it's own.
I had a deck once, or I still have it somewhere, that created infinite zombies. I love dragons, so I played Day of the Dragons then I gave them haste with Concordant Crossroads.
Golgari Germination work well with this, my favorite is adding Savra, queen of the golgari to the mix so you can get 12 billion life and make them sacrifice 12 billion creatures and get 12 billion mana. Adding Skullclamp also lets you draw into whatever your win con is. I want to try this deck out too, I'm not good enough to figure out what else needs to be added but it would be rather fun in my opinion.
I gave you lots of other possible infinite sacrifice combo, now it's up to you.
good luck with your deck.
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Are you seryous about black lotus in your deck?
do you have a black lotus?
because you don't build a deck counting on black lotus, this is the card you only count with if you have one...
same for your mox jet...
about entomb, vampirit tutor, well, your deck is kinda expensive...
If you want to use a lot of money, just use these cards:
entomb + dark ritual + live/death + Iona, emeria shield (DUH, turn one win)
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The best place for creatures is the graveyard.
Golgari Germination work well with this, my favorite is adding Savra, queen of the golgari to the mix so you can get 12 billion life and make them sacrifice 12 billion creatures and get 12 billion mana. Adding Skullclamp also lets you draw into whatever your win con is. I want to try this deck out too, I'm not good enough to figure out what else needs to be added but it would be rather fun in my opinion.
Skullclamp is BANLISTED on legacy.
so, vintage is the only viable place to use this...lol
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I vote for the removal of mythic rarity, primeval titan and Jace, the mindsculptor.
The combo suffers from weakness to the following (off the top of my head): Leyline of the Void
Cranial Extraction
Extirpate
Pithing Needle
Tormod's Crypt
Null Rod
The deck uses cards like Necropotence to find the cards you want early on and play the combo.
Cards which feed off the infinite loop are :
Bridge From Below + Leyline of the Void
Bitter Ordeal - exiling your opponents' entire libraries (this would be fun in multiplayer games too) is always fun.
If you're running Bridge From Below, Maga, Traitor to Mortals or Helm of Obedience can be used too by sacrificing produced zombies.
I wanted to run a straight black version, but it seems way too limited in terms of anti-hate. Adding white and including Pull From Eternity and Vindicate will help against the problem cards already mentioned. However, if anyone has better colour suggestions, please share them.
Cards I feel would/might go well in the deck are:
Phyrexian Altar
Nether Traitor
Genesis Chamber
Bitter Ordeal
Helm of Obedience
Leyline of the Void
Bridge from Below
Maga, Traitor to Mortals
Necropotence
Entomb
Vampiric Tutor
Demonic Tutor
Diabolic Intent
Gravestorm
Pull from Eternity
Vindicate
Damnation / Wrath of God
Strip Mine
Smallpox
Dark Ritual
Sol Ring
Mana Crypt
Mana Vault
Mox Pearl
Mox Diamond
Mox Jet
Chrome Mox
Lion's Eye Diamond
Lotus Petal
Black Lotus
Any decklists/suggestions?
You can run the combo with two Traitors or a single Traitor and a Genesis Chamber.
Helm of Obedience works with Leyline of the Void allowing you to endlessly mill a single opponent, paying 1 for X (as opposed to being able to do this to any number of players using Bitter Ordeal off the loop).
By sacrificing the zombie tokens produced by Bridge from Below to Phyrexian Altar, the deck is able to produce a potentially infinite amount of coloured mana. Use this to cast Maga, Traitor to Mortals for infinite life loss.
Any suggestions for improvement are welcome.
Read both cards again - Leyline stops Bridge from being exiled from your graveyard and Bridge uses the loop to make infinite 2/2 zombies. I'd like to either uses an infinite amount of 2/2 tokens, find a way to give them haste or use them with the Altar for mana to fuel cards like Maga. Now looking for suggestions on what to do with these zombies.
I'll post a rough list later tonight, still tweaking the black white version. My main issue is that my lists are quite weak if the combo fails - which is why I'm seeking assistance.
I fear at a cost of 4, the Helm may be too slow for this deck.
Possible win conditions
Goblin bombardment
Altar of dementia
Pandemonium
oona, queen of the fae
Krovikan horror
These were just the first few i thought of, you can really do just about anything with infinite zombies and infinite mana
I think winning with Rocket Launcher would be epic
(Northeastern PA Vintage)
As to the initial combo of 2 Nether Shadow + Phrexian Altar, you aren't generating infinite mana you are simply able to play your loop over and over. Cards like Bitter Ordeal will make this more playable but you are a 4 card combo. I guess I am criticizing the initial combo, but again it does seem that it's a three card loop that does nothing on it's own.
Thanks to Numotflame96 @ Maelstrom Graphics for awesome sig.
Kill with POWER!
Card List
Skithiryx, Tainted World
Dragon's Nest * Double Dragon * Bladewing the Risen
Thanks to Numotflame96 @ Maelstrom Graphics for awesome sig.
Kill with POWER!
Card List
Skithiryx, Tainted World
Dragon's Nest * Double Dragon * Bladewing the Risen
Ashnod's Altar gives colorless, but you can use something to turn colorless into black: Bog Initiate Initiates of the Ebon Hand
with ashnold's altar, you can also use reassembling skeletons instead of nether traitor, so, you have 2 different creatures for the combo.
in other words, use this cards:
carnival of souls + Deathgreeter
Ashnod's Altar + Bog Initiate or Initiates of the Ebon Hand
reassembling skeletons + Pawn of Ulamog so each revival of the skeleton costs only B
nether traitor
bridge from below for infinite zombs
buried alive
dark ritual
I gave you lots of other possible infinite sacrifice combo, now it's up to you.
good luck with your deck.
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Are you seryous about black lotus in your deck?
do you have a black lotus?
because you don't build a deck counting on black lotus, this is the card you only count with if you have one...
same for your mox jet...
about entomb, vampirit tutor, well, your deck is kinda expensive...
If you want to use a lot of money, just use these cards:
entomb + dark ritual + live/death + Iona, emeria shield (DUH, turn one win)
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The best place for creatures is the graveyard.
Favorite cards = goblin welder, smokestack, chronatog, ,form of the dragon.
60% spike - 30% johny - 10% timmy
Skullclamp is BANLISTED on legacy.
so, vintage is the only viable place to use this...lol
Favorite cards = goblin welder, smokestack, chronatog, ,form of the dragon.
60% spike - 30% johny - 10% timmy