I'm currently still running my old version because it fits my play style, but I have made a few changes to my SB for todays meta with Sadistic Sacrament being a highlight there and main.
S.M.
Good question Case, and I made the choice to place this game ender in for that random matchup were I face a tier deck, {you know the ones that win 90% of the tourneys} and with just one sole copy it allows me to have another win condition or outlet to disrupt them .
I removed one duress to fit this ubber card in seeing most of the current meta has 1-3 kill conditions.
I didn't want to go over board by placing more then one do to the clear fact I might have those matchups vs Stax, Fish, rogue decks.
Example;
While playing against Steel City Vault this card won the game on the spot if resolved early.
Example;
While facing IonaBallsOth this card won on the spot if resolved early.
Example;
While facing Green/Blue Tezz this card won on the spot if resolved early.
Example;
When facing Ant this card won on the spot if resolved early.
Example;
When facing TPS also know as PitchLong this card won on the spot if resolved early.
Example;
When facing Drain Tendrils this card took out their storm chances and they were left with just 2 Bob's to defend my game plan if resolved early.
Example;
When facing Intuition Tendrils this card won on the spot if resolved early.
I know members should do some research to check those decks and their placement on the vintage scene and understand their kill conditions before asking how it won;)....the facts are pretty clear if they have no outs to gain a victory....then they scoop or I get the time to drink more diet coke, snack freely on my jelly bellys, and ofcourse set up my victory with ease.
I have around 5 more that I can share, but I know a vintage player like yourself already understands the seer power the card holds....or maybe you haven't be punch in the jaw with one yet.
I have seen the results of it...and yes I have lost to just one resolved sacrament myself.
Now Case I know you're a die hard Stax player with some strong talent when it comes to that archtype, so ingore these outcome examples because I have listed at the top Stax, and we already know it doesn't get hindered all that much by this card while group testing. But Case do some testing with your SCV deck against someone with these cards and you will be forced to see these results as I've....there's no hiding from them as Jerry stated I believe, but that comment is from word of mouth, and I have only my testing results to back my claims though.
Doing reviews and reading up about Jerry Yang's opinion on the card and ofcourse testing to see results I feel it's just a given that any competitve player by now can see if you've dark rituals in your deck then this card can be viable with strong enough to impose its WILL.
I hoped that helped, and if not I would again suggest and state that members should do that research to see what I'm saying, {it's pretty darn clear just one glace} or for that matter do some play testing against someone that's using Sadistic Sacrament.
Remember stax, fish, rogue {mainly the rogue crap} aren't effected to the outcome, but if you're playing a TEIR vintage deck outside that box {combo which rules the format or control that relays on still 1-3 kill condtitions} I would be really thinking about the outcome if someone slaps you with one during a event.
Remember you heard it here,
S.M.
I do have alot of questions for you. But the first questions will be regarding the decklist itself. After doing some research on some current top placing BobStorm decks, I found that they use Cabal Rituals and no Library of Alexandria. Is the Library just a tech choice on your part, what good has it done for you? I understand it is a beast of a card but I also know that this card is really expensive and so I wanted to know why you would use this over another spot perhaps like over a fourth Bob? I have more questions, but I guess this will do for now. Thanks for the help man! Much appreciated!
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Don't get me wrong, playing Dredge is one of my guilty pleasures, along with eating chunky monkey ice cream and watching my Gilmore Girls DVDs in my underpants, but it's pretty much, in my opinion, the very last deck that I'd want anyone to start a career in Vintage with.
I do have alot of questions for you. But the first questions will be regarding the decklist itself. After doing some research on some current top placing BobStorm decks, I found that they use Cabal Rituals and no Library of Alexandria. Is the Library just a tech choice on your part, what good has it done for you? I understand it is a beast of a card but I also know that this card is really expensive and so I wanted to know why you would use this over another spot perhaps like over a fourth Bob? I have more questions, but I guess this will do for now. Thanks for the help man! Much appreciated!
Good member the first step I would like you to do if provide a link to this Bob'Storm deck for me to view, and I would be greatful for that. I'm always interested in seeing new versions.
Second the LoA is in the deck for the freak chance of a opener, and for that matter used in tadem with other cards like top tutors, Memory Jar, Timetwister ect not to mention it's the best tempo land of all time as for gaining card adv. here's a version I'm molded after {I can't seem to find a deck list right now of a 1st place winner that uses the same mold that took over 59} with my sole change of main. My sideboard is alt do to my meta seeing the times are always shifting as well.
This is the only other current version I have found that has placed in the sweet spot and there was already a link I provided before but I thought you might have missed it.
Enjoy;
S.M.
You basically found the list I was looking at, lol. But yeah, I noticed that he runs the Cabal Rituals (2) and Thoughtseizes, which you do not have in your list as well. The other things I noticed are the lack of Time Vault and Voltaic Key. I understand this is, of course, a personal preference, but have you not found that useful at all? Thanks for your help.
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Don't get me wrong, playing Dredge is one of my guilty pleasures, along with eating chunky monkey ice cream and watching my Gilmore Girls DVDs in my underpants, but it's pretty much, in my opinion, the very last deck that I'd want anyone to start a career in Vintage with.
You basically found the list I was looking at, lol. But yeah, I noticed that he runs the Cabal Rituals (2) and Thoughtseizes, which you do not have in your list as well. The other things I noticed are the lack of Time Vault and Voltaic Key. I understand this is, of course, a personal preference, but have you not found that useful at all? Thanks for your help.
I think I'm just being stubborn by not running the InfiLoop combo in my version, but as a whole it hasn't hindered my performance. This alt version you found {one I posted awhile ago} highlights my other post with regards to Sadistic Sacrament as a lethal card, and as you noticed it did the job with that report.
For me to get the Time Vault and Voltaic key in my maindeck something has to be axed and I'm not prepared to make those cuts to just be like everyone else....meaning it doesn't have to be in the deck for it to be viable.
Now I'm not saying to anymore that's the best choice I've made by not doing so seeing the combo is in almost every vintage deck to date, but I found again the results to be no different without it....and if anything else it allows for me to stay more focused on my goal.
Take a long look at the list I'm running and share your idea's on how you would get the Cabal Rituals [again I'll state these aren't needed in my version seeing this isn't ANT or Grim Long} in it. Do you cut the 2 Repeals which have been proven to intensify a storm count and handle certain situations in a pinch? Do I cut one of the Sensei's Tops and reduce my Bob reveals? With each choice a mage makes come positive or negative rewards, and I feel at least with the version I'm running the rewards are proven and ofcourse consistant.
The LoA can be axed for another Fetchland or for that matter the 4th Underground Sea, {I'm highly against it} but when you don't need to max out those slots the LoA can be found very useful.
You have some very solid questions and I thank you for that...so many asked me ones that are completey a given once a few seconds of thought are applied.
S.M.
You basically found the list I was looking at, lol. But yeah, I noticed that he runs the Cabal Rituals (2) and Thoughtseizes, which you do not have in your list as well. The other things I noticed are the lack of Time Vault and Voltaic Key. I understand this is, of course, a personal preference, but have you not found that useful at all? Thanks for your help.
I think I'm just being stubborn by not running the InfiLoop combo in my version, but as a whole it hasn't hindered my performance. This alt version you found {one I posted awhile ago} highlights my other post with regards to Sadistic Sacrament as a lethal card, and as you noticed it did the job with that report.
For me to get the Time Vault and Voltaic key in my maindeck something has to be axed and I'm not prepared to make those cuts to just be like everyone else....meaning it doesn't have to be in the deck for it to be viable.
Now I'm not saying to anymore that's the best choice I've made by not doing so seeing the combo is in almost every vintage deck to date, but I found again the results to be no different without it....and if anything else it allows for me to stay more focused on my goal.
Take a long look at the list I'm running and share your idea's on how you would get the Cabal Rituals {again I'll state they're not needed seeing this isn't Grim Long or Ant unless you're planning on running the sacrament route in full effect} in it. Do you cut the 2 Repeals which have been proven to intensify a storm count and handle certain situations in a pinch? Do I cut one of the Sensei's Tops and reduce my Bob reveal stability? With each choice a mage makes come positive or negative rewards, and I feel at least with the version I'm running the rewards are proven and ofcourse consistant after countless hours of game testing.
The LoA can be axed for another Fetchland or for that matter the 4th Underground Sea, but when you don't need to max out those slots the LoA can be found very useful instead....I'm firmly against cutting this card!
You have some very solid questions and I thank you for that...I often read questions that with just a few seconds of thought can be answered without ever asking them in the first place. I do hope I'm of some help seeing this archtype is very unforgiving {room for error}....but with that the win ratio is stellar once the understanding of how to play it comes together.
On a final note I'm just used to running 3 Bob's as for a card tempo engine swing for 2 a turn slave. You could run the 4th one for sure, but again that would bring us to the topic good member of what do we cut?...if something isn't broken why fix it;)!
Everyone one has a personal choice on which archtype/deck they enjoy playing to exploit skill, foresight and style. This version I'm running is just the ticket for me, but I do encourage you to test all your options before making that choice with regards to your PM about heading into a tournament. Keep them coming buddy if you have anything more to ask. I do enjoy helping the ones that really want it.
S.M.
haha, love your replies man. So in depth. Sometimes I "think" I type alot, but really it isnt much at all when I look at yours, lol. With regards to the deck again, why not consider the Thoughtseizes? I feel they can be great cards to nab your opponent of any counter magic or key cards that would lead them to their success as well as build your storm count for 1 mana. Do you ever feel that Memory Jar is high on the mana curve? Just things I noticed when inspecting the decks created by Duncan Keijzer and Alberto. And I agree about the Repeals, they're amazing. Repeal for 0 plz?
You're right also about LoA, can make or break a game and doesn't hurt. The Voltaic Key and Time Vault duo just seem like a win more card.
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Don't get me wrong, playing Dredge is one of my guilty pleasures, along with eating chunky monkey ice cream and watching my Gilmore Girls DVDs in my underpants, but it's pretty much, in my opinion, the very last deck that I'd want anyone to start a career in Vintage with.
haha, love your replies man. So in depth. Sometimes I "think" I type alot, but really it isnt much at all when I look at yours, lol. With regards to the deck again, why not consider the Thoughtseizes? I feel they can be great cards to nab your opponent of any counter magic or key cards that would lead them to their success as well as build your storm count for 1 mana. Do you ever feel that Memory Jar is high on the mana curve? Just things I noticed when inspecting the decks created by Duncan Keijzer and Alberto. And I agree about the Repeals, they're amazing. Repeal for 0 plz?
You're right also about LoA, can make or break a game and doesn't hurt. The Voltaic Key and Time Vault duo just seem like a win more card.
Hell to be honest I've considered dropping my Duress count to just 2 seeing I often have a FoW in hand and only need to hit a duress once to be effective...but I'm not that stupied {I have cut the count down to 3 when I added the sacrament} to do so as of yet. I have tested 2 thoughtseize/2 Duress main, but ofcourse it becomes very clear fast that creatures won't ever effect your end result as a game plan. In the end I wouldn't go past the 4 Duress effects and mix and matching is all up to you.
The MJ should never be thought about as a curve card because TINKER is your friend there, so know that when you're reviewing any deck that runs that card in the main.
The Vault/Key combo is a win more card, but when I win on avg turns 1-3 who needs that combo? Our goal is build a storm count so deadly that they don't see more then those turns in order for success, so for me without it I feel more focused.
Remember this is just my opinion {I'm running a deck that supports that combo along side 4 Bob's Unseen Confidant ~ :symu::symb::symr: Tier 1 } so don't let it effect you if you've the 2 peices and want to add them to your own version of Bob'Storm. To get those in my current verion drop 1 TOP and 1 Repeal.
I firmly believe that a post should be in full detail if you're trying to help someone out...anything else would be a waste of time if the person you want to help can't understand the reasoning behind the post. Sadly you'll see alot post made without those little details from members, and even if they're correct with their post....sometimes readers need to know the WHY they're made in the first place.
S.M.
Eh, you're right, why Tinker for that Key and Vault when you can Tinker for Memory Jar and go for a BIG STORM, lol. Now to consider what cards to add as real. Would you say a Twister and LoA is a good investment?
Btw, how have you been placing at your local vintage tournaments or large Lotus tournaments with BobStorm?
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Don't get me wrong, playing Dredge is one of my guilty pleasures, along with eating chunky monkey ice cream and watching my Gilmore Girls DVDs in my underpants, but it's pretty much, in my opinion, the very last deck that I'd want anyone to start a career in Vintage with.
Eh, you're right, why Tinker for that Key and Vault when you can Tinker for Memory Jar and go for a BIG STORM, lol. Now to consider what cards to add as real. Would you say a Twister and LoA is a good investment?
Btw, how have you been placing at your local vintage tournaments or large Lotus tournaments with BobStorm?
As of late I've been working to much to do either hense I get my fix with the group or here on this wonderful site, but I can assure you that this deck has the potential to do both...and if played correctly gain you that top seat!
I own the LoA and found I just had to have it! It's in almost every combo and control deck to date, but sadly I don't have the Timetwister {I own a Beta Lotus, Alpha Recall/Walk...but I'm currently saving change from the car to get one....lol} for the clear reasons I want a Alpha one....and having a women of passion......:facepalm:......I find it's harder to spent my greenbacks were I want them {lets hope she doesn't see my change comment}. You either got that one or didn't...if you didn't then give it sometime...then you will;).
Now seeing that almost every event allows at least 10 proxies I wouldn't buy any if you have a budget like I'm forced to have, {I firmly believe a person should have all the staples though} but if you want to add a nice card to your deck go for the Twister since it fits the theme more then the LoA.
S.M.
haha, actually, I was thinking of getting both the LoA and the Twister. I have a Unlimited Sapphire too, so hoping to add more to my collection. I think this will be the only Vintage deck I make and hopefully, completely complete (aka get all P9).
Back to Bob (again), Gifts Ungiven is a great card (and a mistake on Wizards part imo). Why not utilize this powerhouse? It can easily get you out of those mucky situations.
Anywho, where's that primer you said you may have for this deck?
Oh, and what do you think of Helm of Obedience in the SB?
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Don't get me wrong, playing Dredge is one of my guilty pleasures, along with eating chunky monkey ice cream and watching my Gilmore Girls DVDs in my underpants, but it's pretty much, in my opinion, the very last deck that I'd want anyone to start a career in Vintage with.
haha, actually, I was thinking of getting both the LoA and the Twister. I have a Unlimited Sapphire too, so hoping to add more to my collection. I think this will be the only Vintage deck I make and hopefully, completely complete (aka get all P9).
Back to Bob (again), Gifts Ungiven is a great card (and a mistake on Wizards part imo). Why not utilize this powerhouse? It can easily get you out of those mucky situations.
Anywho, where's that primer you said you may have for this deck?
Oh, and what do you think of Helm of Obedience in the SB?
The blue in this build is low curved and straight to the point, so after testing the gifts it became clear it wasn't needed. Ofcourse this is proven with all the molds you can find that don't run it to back my opinion.
Here's a fast breakdown on the cards, and I forgot it was on the first page of this thread.
Break down by request.
Here's my thoughts on each card.
Land;
1x Library of Alexandria {The best land on card stock in my opinion ever made...I'm done}
4x Polluted Delta {The decks main color is B, so here's your fetch of choice}
1x Flooded Strand {This one gives you a total of 5, and can be replaced by any U fetch}
2x Swamp {This allows you to endure the brutal pain of wastelands}
2x Island {Dito}
1x Tolarian Academy {This card allows some of the most devestating resolves of all-time}
3x Underground Sea {Your land of choice to get the ball started}
Artifact;
1x Black Lotus {Given}
1x Mox Sapphire {Given}
1x Mox Jet {Given}
1x Mox Ruby {Given}
1x Mox Emerald {Given}
1x Mox Pearl {Given}
1x Sol Ring {Given}
1x Mana Crypt {Given}
1x Mana Vault {Given}
1x Memory Jar {I remember hearing Erick R {TeamICBM} once say "This is the most broken card"}
2x Sensei's Divining Top {A trick on wheels. Right when you think using this card with Bob wasn't right, you start spinning this baby into cards you need for that turn to win. This card is a must if you want to gain the best results out of your TOP`STACK tutors, instant forces, and ofcourse abuse with all those fetchlands.}
Black;
3x Dark Confidant {You know him, you love him, It's Bobert folks}
4x Dark Ritual {"If there is such a thing as too much power, I have not discovered it." -Volrath}
1x Vampiric Tutor {This is one of the best tutors period, and plays well with the Top online, or just setting up the win for the following turn}
4x Duress {The best disruption spell, and a perfect kick to the face to ensure combo protection}
1x Demonic Tutor {Gets you what you want, when you need it}
1x Yawgmoth's Will {YaWgaWin}
2x Tendrils of Agony {This storm spell is your win condition, and having 2 gives you a more consistant outcome}
1x Necropotence {Let me have the dark summer of magic again}
1x Yawgmoth's Bargin {If this hits play then you might just have won on the spot}
Blue
1x Ancestral Recall {Targeting who?}
1x Brainstorm {Ice Age made this a common...}
4x Force of Will {Alliances made this a uncommon...}
1x Mystical Tutor {Blues best tutor in my opinion, and the start to bad things to come once it resolves}
1x Hurkyl's Recall {Complete hoser for at least one turn {Staxxx}, and another way to lift Inky, and can add more fual to storm}
1x Chain of Vapor {When you have 3 artifacts, 2 lands and a Mind's Desire in hand things get pretty interesting}
1x Rebuild {Dito on the Hurkyl's Recall and it CYCLES}
2x Repeal {This card can be of use either bouncing something or for added fual to a storm count...Cantrip?}
1x Merchant Scroll {Hey Homelands did print a card worth more then toilet paper}
1x Mind's Desire {I've won games with just one sole copy on the stack, so imagine having 13 copies instead on the stack...}
1x Tinker {I guess I'm going for the Memory Jar}
1x Time Walk {Right...}
1x TimeTwister {I don't think enough players search for this card out of fear, but I'll share a secret with you. I go for this GEM as fast as I can, cross my fingers, and win my games}
Side Board META
1x Darkblast {To kill welders, Bobs, and about anything else that matters}
1x Massacre {Very handy against Mages or other decks that pack white creatures}
2x Hurkyl's Recall {Added Protection against Stax, Null rods ect}
1x Inkwell Leviathan {The other white meat}
1x Mindbreak Trap {An extra force of Will...Opps}
2x Mystic Remora {Comes in against any deck that's going to rifle on you}
2x Tormod's Crypt {A fast free way to handle the yard, and it adds to storm}
2x Pithing Needle {Time Vault, Wastelands, Bazaars ect}
2x Extripate {They can only Force, Ritual, Drain you once ect}
2x Yixlid Jailer {Do you want to cut both legs off a Ichorid players game plan? here's your anwser}
Added with comment; Sadistic Sacrament {Have you ever had a Jester's Cap resolve on a opp first turn and survived the game? Probably not do to the 6 mana it needs in order for resolve...now think about this card happening on a consistant basis on turn 1 via Dark Ritual from an opp or better yet from you! This card can end a game faster then the time it took for you to deal out your 7 cards...I was for this card in the spoiler, for this card now, and it has been proven via winning 1st place reports... I rest my case}
The deck is 61 one cards of perfection, and no deck is absolute in the format. Like I stated though I feel as if everytime I shuffle up I can't lose. This doesn't mean I don't lose, but I can say with confidence that I don't lose often when playing this archtype. The learning curve is kinda rough, but after a fair amount of testing this deck can be a workhorse at your next vintage event.
I love BuG, ControlSlaverClassic, Tezz, SteelCityVault......but nothing compares to this deck in my opinion. As it might not be for all, but if you enjoy storm and gold fishing then this deck could be for you!
I'm out,
S.M.
Don't get me wrong, playing Dredge is one of my guilty pleasures, along with eating chunky monkey ice cream and watching my Gilmore Girls DVDs in my underpants, but it's pretty much, in my opinion, the very last deck that I'd want anyone to start a career in Vintage with.
You're a presistant member and you went public with it ;), so yeah bud. Let me get my work done and I'l make sometime for the MWS.
Attemp to get some testing done against some of your friends or team members and see what I can do.
Try the new version of the lastest Sacrament build and see what kind of results you get.
S.M.
It's how I roll Have you ever considered dropping the Hurkyl's Recall and placing it in the SB to get to a 60 card deck? It seems that the Hurkyl's Recall can be a dead card sometimes and if you have a Rebuild, is there really a need for 2 in the MB?
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Don't get me wrong, playing Dredge is one of my guilty pleasures, along with eating chunky monkey ice cream and watching my Gilmore Girls DVDs in my underpants, but it's pretty much, in my opinion, the very last deck that I'd want anyone to start a career in Vintage with.
It's how I roll Have you ever considered dropping the Hurkyl's Recall and placing it in the SB to get to a 60 card deck? It seems that the Hurkyl's Recall can be a dead card sometimes and if you have a Rebuild, is there really a need for 2 in the MB?
The sole copy is a staple that I wouldn't cut for utility purposes and for the clear fact it can be a deadly storm producer. The one is SB would be a reinforcment if you're facing a deck that has artifact problem cards like stax would toss your why....Null Rods can be a SoB as well.
It took me some time to adjust to the whole "it's 61 cards" but I find it hasn't been a problem. My old classic control slaver build had the use of 61 cards too.
Now I will say for the record that hurkyl's is never a dead card in your STORM deck, so try using it once at the end of your opp's turn one time...then recast all your goodies for a leathal storm on your following turn. Rebuild has that same purpose, but remember it cycles for the win.....how you ask? I cast my Vamp or mystical tutor....cycle for that turn access and do your thing....it has been done:)
S.M.
Point taken. Do you have AIM or something where we can discuss more?
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Don't get me wrong, playing Dredge is one of my guilty pleasures, along with eating chunky monkey ice cream and watching my Gilmore Girls DVDs in my underpants, but it's pretty much, in my opinion, the very last deck that I'd want anyone to start a career in Vintage with.
Point taken. Do you have AIM or something where we can discuss more?
My PM box is your friend now, and it may be best to head to that route so that this thread isn't over lapped with replies that are non related to the topic. I always try to stay within the site rules and the mods are very patient, but we better not tax their kindness. Contact me there for personal info good member.
S.M.
Don't get me wrong, playing Dredge is one of my guilty pleasures, along with eating chunky monkey ice cream and watching my Gilmore Girls DVDs in my underpants, but it's pretty much, in my opinion, the very last deck that I'd want anyone to start a career in Vintage with.
Punkish try out the first version I posted on this thread if you're into storm, and you did very well in testing myw002. Try not to over extend though...I know it takes practice!
S.M.
I've been playing this list for quite a while lately. I've been using a slightly tweaked version of the list Mike Solymossy (the deck creator) played at GenCon. It's best matchup is decks that are usually the worst for storm decks (Stax and fish) due to the high number of bounce spells. The reason Duncan played sadistic scarament in the dutch tournament was because of the Storm-heavy meta. I wouldn't reccomend Sacrament in a low storm/unknown meta. You're better off playing 4 Tendrills in that case, because without Force of will, you really need a deck that can withstand getting sacramented/capped.
I've been playing this list for quite a while lately. I've been using a slightly tweaked version of the list Mike Solymossy (the deck creator) played at GenCon. It's best matchup is decks that are usually the worst for storm decks (Stax and fish) due to the high number of bounce spells. The reason Duncan played sadistic scarament in the dutch tournament was because of the Storm-heavy meta. I wouldn't reccomend Sacrament in a low storm/unknown meta. You're better off playing 4 Tendrills in that case, because without Force of will, you really need a deck that can withstand getting sacramented/capped.
Just my 2 cents
Sadly mike wasn't the creator to this archtype....seeing other pros were testing the use of bob as well in TPS.
As for you other comments they have merit, but to mislead others buy saying they're better of with 4 tendrils instead of the sacrament {Force topic} is just something entirely else. The deck has 6 ways of hand disruption, and if played correctly can withhold a purpose that doesn't need the force of wills. I know because I've been playing deck for sometime now, and that comment was like playing againt a ANT with force of wills main....who wins that matchup....Bob'storm or Ant...if you guess ant then you're correct. Meta is just that, and Sacrament is proven againt 90% of the tier control and combo decks.
Now if you're facing {VS} someone that has them main and they go first then my example VS ant is vaild...how many games do you have 2 forces and 2 blue cards to pitch to stop their DARK R, followed by a Pact of negation {Ant}?
Anyways good post, but the're other angles you need to see first before stating such things in my opinion.
I have months in on this deck {Archtype}, and I've played mutli version to hold my case....if all else fails test it, and if that fails....test again my good friend Al would say.
For the record yes I would recommend sacrament VS high storm meta for the clear fact that once it resolves they are lights out, but I have battle through then with bob'storm for the simple reasons it has other outs....like the BOB's.... it hoses combo and storm meta's which are the Tier in most cases....but it can effect other archtypes as well for a game plan. Now if you're good enough then your sideboard can withhold losing to a sacrament in situations {BOBstorm}, so dropping the concept as a whole because of the risk doesn't match the reward if you do step out on a limb...it has been proven!
Those are my tested shiney 2 cents.
S.M.
Sadly mike wasn't the creator to this archtype....seeing other pros were testing the use of bob as well in TPS.
As for you other comments they have merit, but to mislead others buy saying they're better of with 4 tendrils instead of the sacrament {Force topic} is just something entirely else. The deck has 6 ways of hand disruption, and if played correctly can withhold a purpose that doesn't need the force of wills. I know because I've been playing deck for sometime now, and that comment was like playing againt a ANT with force of wills main....who wins that matchup....Bob'storm or Ant...if you guess ant then you're correct. Meta is just that, and Sacrament is proven againt 90% of the tier control and combo decks.
Now if you're facing {VS} someone that has them main and they go first then my example VS ant is vaild...how many games do you have 2 forces and 2 blue cards to pitch to stop their DARK R, followed by a Pact of negation {Ant}?
Anyways good post, but the're other angles you need to see first before stating such things in my opinion.
I have months in on this deck {Archtype}, and I've played mutli version to hold my case....if all else fails test it, and if that fails....test again my good friend Al would say.
For the record yes I would recommend sacrament VS high storm meta for the clear fact that once it resolves they are lights out, but I have battle through then with bob'storm for the simple reasons it has other outs....like the BOB's.... it hoses combo and storm meta's which are the Tier in most cases....but it can effect other archtypes as well for a game plan. Now if you're good enough then your sideboard can withhold losing to a sacrament in situations {BOBstorm}, so dropping the concept as a whole because of the risk doesn't match the reward if you do step out on a limb...it has been proven!
Those are my tested shiney 2 cents.
S.M.
I've been taking the "better safe than sorry" approach. I keep 4 tendrills in the main, but post-board will often side 1-2 of them out. In my own testing with the deck, other Storm decks are definitly it's worst matchup, so I do keep Sacraments in the board. However, with 4 Tendrills, Mind's Desire becomes more of a threat, and it opens the possibilty of dropping 2 moxen, 2 rituals, and then 2 tendrills for the win. People never see it coming, and it's a great way to sneak a win by. I guess it's a meta decision
I'm currently still running my old version because it fits my play style, but I have made a few changes to my SB for todays meta with Sadistic Sacrament being a highlight there and main.
S.M.
5x Moxen
1x Sol Ring
1x Mana Vault
1x Mana Crypt
1x Memory Jar
2x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Dark Confidant
4x Dark Ritual
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Vampiric Tutor
3x Duress
1x Sadistic Sacrament
1x Necropotence
2x Tendrils of Agony
1x Yawgmoth's Will
1x Yawgmoth's Bargin
1x Brainstorm
1x Chain of Vapor
4x Force of Will
1x Hurky's Recall
1x Merchant Scroll
1x Mind's Desire
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Rebuild
2x Repeal
1x Time Walk
1x Tinker
1x Timetwister
1x Flooded Strand
2x Island
4x Polluted Delta
1x Library of Alexandria
2x Swamp
1x Tolarian Academy
3x Underground Sea
2x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Inkwell Leviathan
1x Massacre
2x Mystic Remora
2x Sadistic Sacrament
4x Leyline of the Void
2x Extripate
Good question Case, and I made the choice to place this game ender in for that random matchup were I face a tier deck, {you know the ones that win 90% of the tourneys} and with just one sole copy it allows me to have another win condition or outlet to disrupt them .
I removed one duress to fit this ubber card in seeing most of the current meta has 1-3 kill conditions.
I didn't want to go over board by placing more then one do to the clear fact I might have those matchups vs Stax, Fish, rogue decks.
Example;
While playing against Steel City Vault this card won the game on the spot if resolved early.
Example;
While facing IonaBallsOth this card won on the spot if resolved early.
Example;
While facing Green/Blue Tezz this card won on the spot if resolved early.
Example;
When facing Ant this card won on the spot if resolved early.
Example;
When facing TPS also know as PitchLong this card won on the spot if resolved early.
Example;
When facing Drain Tendrils this card took out their storm chances and they were left with just 2 Bob's to defend my game plan if resolved early.
Example;
When facing Intuition Tendrils this card won on the spot if resolved early.
I know members should do some research to check those decks and their placement on the vintage scene and understand their kill conditions before asking how it won;)....the facts are pretty clear if they have no outs to gain a victory....then they scoop or I get the time to drink more diet coke, snack freely on my jelly bellys, and ofcourse set up my victory with ease.
I have around 5 more that I can share, but I know a vintage player like yourself already understands the seer power the card holds....or maybe you haven't be punch in the jaw with one yet.
I have seen the results of it...and yes I have lost to just one resolved sacrament myself.
Now Case I know you're a die hard Stax player with some strong talent when it comes to that archtype, so ingore these outcome examples because I have listed at the top Stax, and we already know it doesn't get hindered all that much by this card while group testing. But Case do some testing with your SCV deck against someone with these cards and you will be forced to see these results as I've....there's no hiding from them as Jerry stated I believe, but that comment is from word of mouth, and I have only my testing results to back my claims though.
Doing reviews and reading up about Jerry Yang's opinion on the card and ofcourse testing to see results I feel it's just a given that any competitve player by now can see if you've dark rituals in your deck then this card can be viable with strong enough to impose its WILL.
I hoped that helped, and if not I would again suggest and state that members should do that research to see what I'm saying, {it's pretty darn clear just one glace} or for that matter do some play testing against someone that's using Sadistic Sacrament.
Remember stax, fish, rogue {mainly the rogue crap} aren't effected to the outcome, but if you're playing a TEIR vintage deck outside that box {combo which rules the format or control that relays on still 1-3 kill condtitions} I would be really thinking about the outcome if someone slaps you with one during a event.
Remember you heard it here,
S.M.
My Trade Thread
Good member the first step I would like you to do if provide a link to this Bob'Storm deck for me to view, and I would be greatful for that. I'm always interested in seeing new versions.
Second the LoA is in the deck for the freak chance of a opener, and for that matter used in tadem with other cards like top tutors, Memory Jar, Timetwister ect not to mention it's the best tempo land of all time as for gaining card adv. here's a version I'm molded after {I can't seem to find a deck list right now of a 1st place winner that uses the same mold that took over 59} with my sole change of main. My sideboard is alt do to my meta seeing the times are always shifting as well.
This is the only other current version I have found that has placed in the sweet spot and there was already a link I provided before but I thought you might have missed it.
Enjoy;
S.M.
You basically found the list I was looking at, lol. But yeah, I noticed that he runs the Cabal Rituals (2) and Thoughtseizes, which you do not have in your list as well. The other things I noticed are the lack of Time Vault and Voltaic Key. I understand this is, of course, a personal preference, but have you not found that useful at all? Thanks for your help.
My Trade Thread
I think I'm just being stubborn by not running the InfiLoop combo in my version, but as a whole it hasn't hindered my performance. This alt version you found {one I posted awhile ago} highlights my other post with regards to Sadistic Sacrament as a lethal card, and as you noticed it did the job with that report.
For me to get the Time Vault and Voltaic key in my maindeck something has to be axed and I'm not prepared to make those cuts to just be like everyone else....meaning it doesn't have to be in the deck for it to be viable.
Now I'm not saying to anymore that's the best choice I've made by not doing so seeing the combo is in almost every vintage deck to date, but I found again the results to be no different without it....and if anything else it allows for me to stay more focused on my goal.
Take a long look at the list I'm running and share your idea's on how you would get the Cabal Rituals [again I'll state these aren't needed in my version seeing this isn't ANT or Grim Long} in it. Do you cut the 2 Repeals which have been proven to intensify a storm count and handle certain situations in a pinch? Do I cut one of the Sensei's Tops and reduce my Bob reveals? With each choice a mage makes come positive or negative rewards, and I feel at least with the version I'm running the rewards are proven and ofcourse consistant.
The LoA can be axed for another Fetchland or for that matter the 4th Underground Sea, {I'm highly against it} but when you don't need to max out those slots the LoA can be found very useful.
You have some very solid questions and I thank you for that...so many asked me ones that are completey a given once a few seconds of thought are applied.
S.M.
I think I'm just being stubborn by not running the InfiLoop combo in my version, but as a whole it hasn't hindered my performance. This alt version you found {one I posted awhile ago} highlights my other post with regards to Sadistic Sacrament as a lethal card, and as you noticed it did the job with that report.
For me to get the Time Vault and Voltaic key in my maindeck something has to be axed and I'm not prepared to make those cuts to just be like everyone else....meaning it doesn't have to be in the deck for it to be viable.
Now I'm not saying to anymore that's the best choice I've made by not doing so seeing the combo is in almost every vintage deck to date, but I found again the results to be no different without it....and if anything else it allows for me to stay more focused on my goal.
Take a long look at the list I'm running and share your idea's on how you would get the Cabal Rituals {again I'll state they're not needed seeing this isn't Grim Long or Ant unless you're planning on running the sacrament route in full effect} in it. Do you cut the 2 Repeals which have been proven to intensify a storm count and handle certain situations in a pinch? Do I cut one of the Sensei's Tops and reduce my Bob reveal stability? With each choice a mage makes come positive or negative rewards, and I feel at least with the version I'm running the rewards are proven and ofcourse consistant after countless hours of game testing.
The LoA can be axed for another Fetchland or for that matter the 4th Underground Sea, but when you don't need to max out those slots the LoA can be found very useful instead....I'm firmly against cutting this card!
You have some very solid questions and I thank you for that...I often read questions that with just a few seconds of thought can be answered without ever asking them in the first place. I do hope I'm of some help seeing this archtype is very unforgiving {room for error}....but with that the win ratio is stellar once the understanding of how to play it comes together.
On a final note I'm just used to running 3 Bob's as for a card tempo engine swing for 2 a turn slave. You could run the 4th one for sure, but again that would bring us to the topic good member of what do we cut?...if something isn't broken why fix it;)!
Everyone one has a personal choice on which archtype/deck they enjoy playing to exploit skill, foresight and style. This version I'm running is just the ticket for me, but I do encourage you to test all your options before making that choice with regards to your PM about heading into a tournament. Keep them coming buddy if you have anything more to ask. I do enjoy helping the ones that really want it.
S.M.
You're right also about LoA, can make or break a game and doesn't hurt. The Voltaic Key and Time Vault duo just seem like a win more card.
My Trade Thread
Hell to be honest I've considered dropping my Duress count to just 2 seeing I often have a FoW in hand and only need to hit a duress once to be effective...but I'm not that stupied {I have cut the count down to 3 when I added the sacrament} to do so as of yet. I have tested 2 thoughtseize/2 Duress main, but ofcourse it becomes very clear fast that creatures won't ever effect your end result as a game plan. In the end I wouldn't go past the 4 Duress effects and mix and matching is all up to you.
The MJ should never be thought about as a curve card because TINKER is your friend there, so know that when you're reviewing any deck that runs that card in the main.
The Vault/Key combo is a win more card, but when I win on avg turns 1-3 who needs that combo? Our goal is build a storm count so deadly that they don't see more then those turns in order for success, so for me without it I feel more focused.
Remember this is just my opinion {I'm running a deck that supports that combo along side 4 Bob's Unseen Confidant ~ :symu::symb::symr: Tier 1 } so don't let it effect you if you've the 2 peices and want to add them to your own version of Bob'Storm. To get those in my current verion drop 1 TOP and 1 Repeal.
I firmly believe that a post should be in full detail if you're trying to help someone out...anything else would be a waste of time if the person you want to help can't understand the reasoning behind the post. Sadly you'll see alot post made without those little details from members, and even if they're correct with their post....sometimes readers need to know the WHY they're made in the first place.
S.M.
Btw, how have you been placing at your local vintage tournaments or large Lotus tournaments with BobStorm?
My Trade Thread
As of late I've been working to much to do either hense I get my fix with the group or here on this wonderful site, but I can assure you that this deck has the potential to do both...and if played correctly gain you that top seat!
I own the LoA and found I just had to have it! It's in almost every combo and control deck to date, but sadly I don't have the Timetwister {I own a Beta Lotus, Alpha Recall/Walk...but I'm currently saving change from the car to get one....lol} for the clear reasons I want a Alpha one....and having a women of passion......:facepalm:......I find it's harder to spent my greenbacks were I want them {lets hope she doesn't see my change comment}. You either got that one or didn't...if you didn't then give it sometime...then you will;).
Now seeing that almost every event allows at least 10 proxies I wouldn't buy any if you have a budget like I'm forced to have, {I firmly believe a person should have all the staples though} but if you want to add a nice card to your deck go for the Twister since it fits the theme more then the LoA.
S.M.
Back to Bob (again), Gifts Ungiven is a great card (and a mistake on Wizards part imo). Why not utilize this powerhouse? It can easily get you out of those mucky situations.
Anywho, where's that primer you said you may have for this deck?
Oh, and what do you think of Helm of Obedience in the SB?
My Trade Thread
The blue in this build is low curved and straight to the point, so after testing the gifts it became clear it wasn't needed. Ofcourse this is proven with all the molds you can find that don't run it to back my opinion.
Here's a fast breakdown on the cards, and I forgot it was on the first page of this thread.
Break down by request.
Here's my thoughts on each card.
Land;
1x Library of Alexandria {The best land on card stock in my opinion ever made...I'm done}
4x Polluted Delta {The decks main color is B, so here's your fetch of choice}
1x Flooded Strand {This one gives you a total of 5, and can be replaced by any U fetch}
2x Swamp {This allows you to endure the brutal pain of wastelands}
2x Island {Dito}
1x Tolarian Academy {This card allows some of the most devestating resolves of all-time}
3x Underground Sea {Your land of choice to get the ball started}
Artifact;
1x Black Lotus {Given}
1x Mox Sapphire {Given}
1x Mox Jet {Given}
1x Mox Ruby {Given}
1x Mox Emerald {Given}
1x Mox Pearl {Given}
1x Sol Ring {Given}
1x Mana Crypt {Given}
1x Mana Vault {Given}
1x Memory Jar {I remember hearing Erick R {TeamICBM} once say "This is the most broken card"}
2x Sensei's Divining Top {A trick on wheels. Right when you think using this card with Bob wasn't right, you start spinning this baby into cards you need for that turn to win. This card is a must if you want to gain the best results out of your TOP`STACK tutors, instant forces, and ofcourse abuse with all those fetchlands.}
Black;
3x Dark Confidant {You know him, you love him, It's Bobert folks}
4x Dark Ritual {"If there is such a thing as too much power, I have not discovered it." -Volrath}
1x Vampiric Tutor {This is one of the best tutors period, and plays well with the Top online, or just setting up the win for the following turn}
4x Duress {The best disruption spell, and a perfect kick to the face to ensure combo protection}
1x Demonic Tutor {Gets you what you want, when you need it}
1x Yawgmoth's Will {YaWgaWin}
2x Tendrils of Agony {This storm spell is your win condition, and having 2 gives you a more consistant outcome}
1x Necropotence {Let me have the dark summer of magic again}
1x Yawgmoth's Bargin {If this hits play then you might just have won on the spot}
Blue
1x Ancestral Recall {Targeting who?}
1x Brainstorm {Ice Age made this a common...}
4x Force of Will {Alliances made this a uncommon...}
1x Mystical Tutor {Blues best tutor in my opinion, and the start to bad things to come once it resolves}
1x Hurkyl's Recall {Complete hoser for at least one turn {Staxxx}, and another way to lift Inky, and can add more fual to storm}
1x Chain of Vapor {When you have 3 artifacts, 2 lands and a Mind's Desire in hand things get pretty interesting}
1x Rebuild {Dito on the Hurkyl's Recall and it CYCLES}
2x Repeal {This card can be of use either bouncing something or for added fual to a storm count...Cantrip?}
1x Merchant Scroll {Hey Homelands did print a card worth more then toilet paper}
1x Mind's Desire {I've won games with just one sole copy on the stack, so imagine having 13 copies instead on the stack...}
1x Tinker {I guess I'm going for the Memory Jar}
1x Time Walk {Right...}
1x TimeTwister {I don't think enough players search for this card out of fear, but I'll share a secret with you. I go for this GEM as fast as I can, cross my fingers, and win my games}
Side Board META
1x Darkblast {To kill welders, Bobs, and about anything else that matters}
1x Massacre {Very handy against Mages or other decks that pack white creatures}
2x Hurkyl's Recall {Added Protection against Stax, Null rods ect}
1x Inkwell Leviathan {The other white meat}
1x Mindbreak Trap {An extra force of Will...Opps}
2x Mystic Remora {Comes in against any deck that's going to rifle on you}
2x Tormod's Crypt {A fast free way to handle the yard, and it adds to storm}
2x Pithing Needle {Time Vault, Wastelands, Bazaars ect}
2x Extripate {They can only Force, Ritual, Drain you once ect}
2x Yixlid Jailer {Do you want to cut both legs off a Ichorid players game plan? here's your anwser}
Added with comment;
Sadistic Sacrament {Have you ever had a Jester's Cap resolve on a opp first turn and survived the game? Probably not do to the 6 mana it needs in order for resolve...now think about this card happening on a consistant basis on turn 1 via Dark Ritual from an opp or better yet from you! This card can end a game faster then the time it took for you to deal out your 7 cards...I was for this card in the spoiler, for this card now, and it has been proven via winning 1st place reports... I rest my case}
The deck is 61 one cards of perfection, and no deck is absolute in the format. Like I stated though I feel as if everytime I shuffle up I can't lose. This doesn't mean I don't lose, but I can say with confidence that I don't lose often when playing this archtype. The learning curve is kinda rough, but after a fair amount of testing this deck can be a workhorse at your next vintage event.
I love BuG, ControlSlaverClassic, Tezz, SteelCityVault......but nothing compares to this deck in my opinion. As it might not be for all, but if you enjoy storm and gold fishing then this deck could be for you!
I'm out,
S.M.
My Trade Thread
You're a presistant member and you went public with it ;), so yeah bud. Let me get my work done and I'l make sometime for the MWS.
Attemp to get some testing done against some of your friends or team members and see what I can do.
Try the new version of the lastest Sacrament build and see what kind of results you get.
S.M.
My Trade Thread
The sole copy is a staple that I wouldn't cut for utility purposes and for the clear fact it can be a deadly storm producer. The one is SB would be a reinforcment if you're facing a deck that has artifact problem cards like stax would toss your why....Null Rods can be a SoB as well.
It took me some time to adjust to the whole "it's 61 cards" but I find it hasn't been a problem. My old classic control slaver build had the use of 61 cards too.
Now I will say for the record that hurkyl's is never a dead card in your STORM deck, so try using it once at the end of your opp's turn one time...then recast all your goodies for a leathal storm on your following turn. Rebuild has that same purpose, but remember it cycles for the win.....how you ask? I cast my Vamp or mystical tutor....cycle for that turn access and do your thing....it has been done:)
S.M.
My Trade Thread
My PM box is your friend now, and it may be best to head to that route so that this thread isn't over lapped with replies that are non related to the topic. I always try to stay within the site rules and the mods are very patient, but we better not tax their kindness. Contact me there for personal info good member.
S.M.
My Trade Thread
S.M.
Just my 2 cents
Sadly mike wasn't the creator to this archtype....seeing other pros were testing the use of bob as well in TPS.
As for you other comments they have merit, but to mislead others buy saying they're better of with 4 tendrils instead of the sacrament {Force topic} is just something entirely else. The deck has 6 ways of hand disruption, and if played correctly can withhold a purpose that doesn't need the force of wills. I know because I've been playing deck for sometime now, and that comment was like playing againt a ANT with force of wills main....who wins that matchup....Bob'storm or Ant...if you guess ant then you're correct. Meta is just that, and Sacrament is proven againt 90% of the tier control and combo decks.
Now if you're facing {VS} someone that has them main and they go first then my example VS ant is vaild...how many games do you have 2 forces and 2 blue cards to pitch to stop their DARK R, followed by a Pact of negation {Ant}?
Anyways good post, but the're other angles you need to see first before stating such things in my opinion.
I have months in on this deck {Archtype}, and I've played mutli version to hold my case....if all else fails test it, and if that fails....test again my good friend Al would say.
For the record yes I would recommend sacrament VS high storm meta for the clear fact that once it resolves they are lights out, but I have battle through then with bob'storm for the simple reasons it has other outs....like the BOB's.... it hoses combo and storm meta's which are the Tier in most cases....but it can effect other archtypes as well for a game plan. Now if you're good enough then your sideboard can withhold losing to a sacrament in situations {BOBstorm}, so dropping the concept as a whole because of the risk doesn't match the reward if you do step out on a limb...it has been proven!
Those are my tested shiney 2 cents.
S.M.
I've been taking the "better safe than sorry" approach. I keep 4 tendrills in the main, but post-board will often side 1-2 of them out. In my own testing with the deck, other Storm decks are definitly it's worst matchup, so I do keep Sacraments in the board. However, with 4 Tendrills, Mind's Desire becomes more of a threat, and it opens the possibilty of dropping 2 moxen, 2 rituals, and then 2 tendrills for the win. People never see it coming, and it's a great way to sneak a win by. I guess it's a meta decision