MTG Salvation

any updates?

To the Land Grant scenario - It doesn't really accomplish anything, if you didn't have the land grant in your hand anyways, you would have just had the forest you'd run instead. And the forest can't be countered... Boosting the storm by 1 isn't really relevant. When elves starts going, it goes, and you cant storm basically your entire deck up. Its basically just a fetchland in the deck, and honestly, it won't make a very substantial difference. If it was ever to make a difference, it would have to replace other spells, which I would not recommend.

I would argue against crop rotation as well. Early turn(s potentially) you don't really want to be using your mana to crop rotate, and by the time you have enough guys that its worth it to get Cradle, you don't really need the cradle anymore.

I'll admit that sometimes you can get stuck with my decisions there, but then you can usually just drop like 10 elves and attack for two turns, which is extremely underrated in this deck. Its no different than tinker/colossus, except its harder to stop, because tinker is 1 spell, this is like a dozen. At the end of the day, elves doesn't have to ever grapeshot to win, in fact, often I don't. I just run out some guys, glimpsing up a fresh hand to replace them, and attack.

I have however, played around with Fastbond, it can be good at pulling the combo out of jams, and then you can go nuts with quirion rangers too.

Skullclamp definitely goes in the deck. And why have none of the lists here had Emerald and Lotus? They should be in as well.
Such a fun deck to play, I've been on Drain decks for so long now, its nice to just go nuts and do some crazy stuff.

I'm running LSV's version of the elf deck. The only thing that pisses me off from time to time is how useless the 2x Viridian Shaman and 3x Weird Harvest can be sometimes.

I was thinking of running a couple of tutors in place of them, but not sure if it's a good idea. Demonic Tutor and Vampiric Tutor could work, however since it's not green it doesn't untap Nettle Sentinel which is the only problem i found so far.

How about Sylvan Tutor and/or Worldly Tutor???

LSV's extended version? I've never seen a vintage version with Weird Harvest. I recommend starting with the lists put up early on by Shay and Turtenwald (somewhere in the tourney reports on TMD, not sure where though) and going from there.

I don't even know how you could fit Weird Harvest in the type 1 version in the first place. Do you have a link to your list?

Quote from Canadian_Pride

LSV's extended version? I've never seen a vintage version with Weird Harvest. I recommend starting with the lists put up early on by Shay and Turtenwald (somewhere in the tourney reports on TMD, not sure where though) and going from there.

I don't even know how you could fit Weird Harvest in the type 1 version in the first place. Do you have a link to your list?

It's just the one he won the Pro-Tour Berlin 2008 with. I'm trying to make it more consistent in vintage.



It seems pretty consistent with turn 3 wins, however I'm trying to make it more of a turn 2 deck if possible. I don't really see how Skullclamp can help. For me it disrupts the Nettle Sentinels. How about Harmonize?

Yeah even the other extended version (and the better version, not close, for extended that is) is really consistent for turn 3 win in the matchups it goes for it with).

I'm going to automatically assume you changed the elves of deep shadow to fyndhorn elves, because that should be a given. (I think the list I've been toying with has 4 llanowar and like 2 or 3 fyndhorn)

After that:
Personally to change it I'd go (I'm not going to specifically modify the mana base, its simple enough, you either run fetches and forests or just forests)

-2 lands
+emerald, lotus

-3 weird harvest
-2 elvish visionary
-2 viridian shaman
-2 Fyndhorn Elves
for
+4 Skullclamp
+1 Fastbond
+4 Quirion Ranger

I also have +1 elvish spirit guide to pact for. I MAY have cut a third visionary for it, I can't remember.

Weird harvest is crap here, and 6 mana elves is usualy enough. V-Shamans haven't really done anything for me, but I'm not playing the deck in tournaments, just pre-board games with friends, so who knows, it could still be ok. Visionary is still good, but I've found him much better as a 2 of, or 1 of, I can't remember.

Skullclamp is really, really good in the deck. I wouldn't ever dream of cutting it.

I don't know why you are not finding it useful. Perhaps you need to adjust the way you play the deck? I don't know, maybe the rangers help for that too, they do untap guys.

Harmonize would not be good, if you can get the 4 mana for harmonize, you still probably only untap a couple sentinals after, and with the 4 mana, you could've played clamp, clamped 2 guys, and dropped a 1 drop to untap the sentinals anyways.

Topdeck tutors don't seem good in this deck either. mostly because of the first word.

My list is basically the list Rich Shay used a while back, except with fastbond and an elvish spirit guide, I think in place fo a visionary and a mana elf or something like that. I don't totally remember his list, but its close. its what I based mine off of.

EDIT: Here's the link.
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=36980.0

@Canadian_Pride:

That's very insightful. I can't afford an Emerald,Lotus, painlands and bayou, but i can definitely get 4 skullclamps along with the 4 glimpse that i'll be ordering. I like how Shay's deck uses grapeshot instead of the dragon version the OP posted.

From that deck list and the cards you suggested, the only difference i'll make is keeping 4 elves of deep shadow for now. Main reason is that I want to be able to get and use Thoughtseize later, and have 4 extra black mana sources could help.

What turn do you usually go off using skullclamp?

Quote from Canadian_Pride

To the Land Grant scenario - It doesn't really accomplish anything, if you didn't have the land grant in your hand anyways, you would have just had the forest you'd run instead. And the forest can't be countered... Boosting the storm by 1 isn't really relevant. When elves starts going, it goes, and you cant storm basically your entire deck up. Its basically just a fetchland in the deck, and honestly, it won't make a very substantial difference. If it was ever to make a difference, it would have to replace other spells, which I would not recommend.

I would argue against crop rotation as well. Early turn(s potentially) you don't really want to be using your mana to crop rotate, and by the time you have enough guys that its worth it to get Cradle, you don't really need the cradle anymore.

I'll admit that sometimes you can get stuck with my decisions there, but then you can usually just drop like 10 elves and attack for two turns, which is extremely underrated in this deck. Its no different than tinker/colossus, except its harder to stop, because tinker is 1 spell, this is like a dozen. At the end of the day, elves doesn't have to ever grapeshot to win, in fact, often I don't. I just run out some guys, glimpsing up a fresh hand to replace them, and attack.

I have however, played around with Fastbond, it can be good at pulling the combo out of jams, and then you can go nuts with quirion rangers too.

Skullclamp definitely goes in the deck. And why have none of the lists here had Emerald and Lotus? They should be in as well.
Such a fun deck to play, I've been on Drain decks for so long now, its nice to just go nuts and do some crazy stuff.

Like you said, land grant is a fetch land, it finds the dual that you need, if youre say running the burning wish version, and need volcanic island. If you are running mono-color though, youre right, its a useless card.

And about crop rotation, you do it either turn 2 or 3, during which you have 3-5 guys out, so Im not sure what you mean about it being useless. Obviously you dont go for cradle turn 1 or anything, but one you get 2 guys, youre already getting your mana back and a storm count as the cherry on top.

Mhm, I would rather just run fetches though, because they can't be countered (well, stifle, but you know). if I see the elf deck land granting, I'm probably going to spend a counter on it and just leave them crippled. just having fetchlands seems much better.

With regards to crop rotation, true, but at that point, you didn't need the cradle to begin with, (combo-ing out turn 3 is usually comfortable mana wise. by the time you have mana to crop rotate, you didn't need to). and crop rotation takes up a slot in the deck, and having cradle in the deck minimizes the amount of keep-able hands, because a 1-lander with cradle obv. does not work.

Erm, the worst possible thing that crop rotation can do is you lose G to play it, and find an untapped forest which can get you your G back. I see a lot of upsides (2-3 extra mana), and a very small downside (1/11 or so) more mulligans. Im not sure what you mean by "mana to play it", unless you have a CITP in your deck, there is no way you can lose mana.

I was thinking more of not wanting to get it countered, but I'm not sure where all of that post was coming from, I typed it in a hurry. my point still stands about land grant, I'd rather just use fetchlands for the safety of not getting one countered.

Either way though, I wouldn't use a slot on crop rotation, this list is kind of tight already as it is. the other cards I could be running will do more.

EDIT: Yeah, I really don't know what I meant on the crop rotation thing, but I still would not put it in the deck.

And as for YLC's comments. I would rather keep 4x fyndhorn elves and find some cheaper BG duals in your case. Gilt-Leaf palace, llanowar wastes, etc... having your 1 mana elf produce G instead of B is pretty important. Clamp and visionary are the only other cards your elves of deep shadow will cast without the help of heritage druid.

And Clamp sends me off turn 3 usually, turn 2 sometimes (probably like 3:1 ratio or something). It also bails out some turn 2 attempts with glimpse that just were not getting there.

Quote from Canadian_Pride

I was thinking more of not wanting to get it countered, but I'm not sure where all of that post was coming from, I typed it in a hurry. my point still stands about land grant, I'd rather just use fetchlands for the safety of not getting one countered.

Either way though, I wouldn't use a slot on crop rotation, this list is kind of tight already as it is. the other cards I could be running will do more.

EDIT: Yeah, I really don't know what I meant on the crop rotation thing, but I still would not put it in the deck.

And as for YLC's comments. I would rather keep 4x fyndhorn elves and find some cheaper BG duals in your case. Gilt-Leaf palace, llanowar wastes, etc... having your 1 mana elf produce G instead of B is pretty important. Clamp and visionary are the only other cards your elves of deep shadow will cast without the help of heritage druid.

And Clamp sends me off turn 3 usually, turn 2 sometimes (probably like 3:1 ratio or something). It also bails out some turn 2 attempts with glimpse that just were not getting there.

I actually do have Gilt-Leaf Palace and Overgrown Tomb in my deck. However, since i have these lands would that make Quirion Ranger useless since i can't return Palaces?

Here is the list I plan on running if I order skullclamp...



How does that look?

As for the kill turn, LSV's extended version usually goes off turn 3. However, seeing that even with skullclamp it still kills on turn 3 most of the time, skullclamp doesn't really seem to speed up this deck.

The gilf-leafs will make quirion ranger less effective yes, but an optimal version with rangers obviously won't have them, yours is just a special case. As for skullclamp, it will speed the deck up a bit, increasing the turn 2 win percentage, however regardless of that, it belongs in the deck. It doesn't have to speed it up to be right, it just makes the deck better and more powerful. Clamp is just so broken the deck can't not run it. And it does increase the turn 2 percentage goldfish a decent amount, but the deck is always going to be more comfortable winning turn 3, although the turn 2's happen quite a bit still.

Quote from Canadian_Pride

The gilf-leafs will make quirion ranger less effective yes, but an optimal version with rangers obviously won't have them, yours is just a special case. As for skullclamp, it will speed the deck up a bit, increasing the turn 2 win percentage, however regardless of that, it belongs in the deck. It doesn't have to speed it up to be right, it just makes the deck better and more powerful. Clamp is just so broken the deck can't not run it. And it does increase the turn 2 percentage goldfish a decent amount, but the deck is always going to be more comfortable winning turn 3, although the turn 2's happen quite a bit still.

Yeah, i think Quirion Ranger won't work as well in my deck. However, I think I've found a new list that could work really well. Again, it's based off of LSV's extended. Seeing how useless Weird Harvest and Viridian Shamans can be sometimes, I tried subbing them for Skullclamp and Fyndhorn Elves. So far, it seems to work better for me.



The number of Llanowar Elves vs Elves of Deep Shadow can be switched around. I kept it in because I like the idea of using Thoughtseize. I know that there are better lands to use instead of having Deep Shadow, but I currently can not afford them. But this list seems to run pretty well. Once i can afford getting Bayous then i will definitely try subbing out Elves of Deep Shadow for them.

Really the only difference in this list is using Skullclamp over Weird Harvest. Cost 1 mana less and can help you draw 2 cards. Only downfall it might have is that it's not a green spell, so it won't untap Nettle Sentinel. However, i think it's more of a fallback card incase Glimpse of Nature draws you dead cards and such.

Skullclamp isnt helping, people who think it will speed up the deck need to actually playtest and play it.

Quote from Atikin

Skullclamp isnt helping, people who think it will speed up the deck need to actually playtest and play it.

It seems to speed up the deck from time to time. But from the few playtests I've had it seems to make it more consistent for a turn 3 win.

How? You pay 1 mana to draw 2 cards by killing an elf, and the only time u can afford to kill a mana elf is after you combo. If u can afford to play it during your combo turn, u already won. If you play it the turn before you can't combo down next turn since you spent ur mana playing skullclamp instead of mana elves.

Quote from Atikin

How? You pay 1 mana to draw 2 cards by killing an elf, and the only time u can afford to kill a mana elf is after you combo. If u can afford to play it during your combo turn, u already won. If you play it the turn before you can't combo down next turn since you spent ur mana playing skullclamp instead of mana elves.

I play the Grapeshot version so it doesn't really matter if my non-mana engine elves die from skullclamp. Skullclamp isn't really meant to be used during the combo, but rather to help you prepare and get the cards you're missing for the combo (ex. Glimpse of Nature). It also helps when you draw dead cards from Glimpse (such as a land when you already played one).

I switched Weird Harvest out for Skullclamp when it's working better since I never end up using Weird Harvest, ever. So perhaps instead of having 4 skullclamps and 4 glimpse try having 3 skullclamps with 4 glimpse.

Ive tried all of it, and I also play the grapeshot version, but I dont wanna be spending mana and killing elves just to prepare, it wont work and if anything itll make you have to combo off the turn AFTER you draw 4-6 cards off skullclamp.

Quote from Atikin

Ive tried all of it, and I also play the grapeshot version, but I dont wanna be spending mana and killing elves just to prepare, it wont work and if anything itll make you have to combo off the turn AFTER you draw 4-6 cards off skullclamp.

Mind posting your decklist?

Quote from Chaosworm

I think Elvish Promenade would go well in this deck.

I think it's not a useful card. It doesn't seem like a very good card to be in your opening hand. And for 4 mana it might be a bit too high to have that for a turn 2 or turn 3 win...

I just got 4 skullclamps and i'm impressed with them. I find they make my deck very consistent to go off on turn 3. Next is to order 3 glimpse of nature and 4 fyndhorn elves to finish my main deck

realistically, how does vintage elfball do to other matchups?

With no real protection, how is this better than say... belcher? I guess I understand the whole 'we have guys (TM)' thing, but I don't see it beating many of the established decks other than ichorid.

Is this combo that much faster with the few cards it gains from vintage, or am I missing something else?

Reliable plays out of chalice at 1? You'll need a lot more than 1x viridian shaman.

I've played several games with this (grapeshot), although never serious tournament testing, I find clamp can't really be replaced... it's not quite a glimpse but often will be a glimpse +1... but I'm running a modified version with more witnesses (dead visionaries are good), also wirewood hivemaster is good friends with clamp

I had the same idea the other day. I'm pretty ignorant of the Vintage meta though. Here's what I came up with:


How do ya'll feel about Vitalize and Aluren? They're nice things to run into while comboing. Aluren might be overkill and too expensive though...

Heritage Druid offers better tap/mana ratio than Birchlore. Is it necessary to run both?