I haven't find a specific topic about this deck, so I'm creating one =] If there's another one, feel free to delete this, ok?
I'm trying to bring elfball to vintage, since here we have an awsome weapon: skullclamp. It's really awsome in the beginning of the game, or when you get flooded with lands. and we also have BL, Moxes, and everything else.
The deck is pretty solid (much more solid than Extended Lists), making turn 2 kills very often, and making turn 1 kills possible without too much lucky involved. It uses the great draw engine of skullclamp + wirewood hivemaster's tokens to draw the entirely deck if you don't get a glimpse of nature. then it kills just like extended ones do, and if you get a resolved StP, you can just wait for the next turn and crash your elves against them
You could run a singleton Hunting Pack and Concordant Crossroads over the dragon unless you're going for style points with Big Red. You could also drop Birchlore Rangers in that build to add some Krosan Grips, otherwise you'll be forced to scoop it up vs. chalice. Mox Diamond you *can* run, but if you're drawing that many cards and need mana, might I suggest Exploration instead? You might also run multiple Chrome Moxen, as it's no longer restricted.
Instead of predator dragon and weird harvest, has anyone looked into natural order? A couple of these would be an awesome way to bust out regal force out of the blue for 4 mana, and perhaps there are other green meanies that can be ordered out.
I dont like the hivemaster a lot, because he doesn't add to the combo all that much. He is a little expensive for an elf in the chain, and the insects can't be tapped as elves. They definately could be sideboard where the aggro approach is best, but the aggro aspect should just be a result of a failed combo, or extenuating circumstances. But that could be where progenitus could come into play.
I think that gaeas cradle may serve better as simple basics, because turn 1, that lone cradle will sit in your hand as you lose games to mana screw. Plus, waste kills it.
I also really think that at least a singleton grapehot is warranted. it allows you to kill outright on a combo turn (2 or three is pretty common) with relative ease, and is not that stressful on the mana base. (considering you use birchlore). I might cut down to 2 esg, with 4 you might be low on permanent mana sources, and you can always grab one with pact.
I also agree with the mox diamond quote. Chrome mox may not fit either, the card disadvantage could really hurt the deck, considering that the draw engine is based on having a lot of creatures in hand or in play.
Also, chalice is not played at 1 as often as it used to be, so at least for game 1 you should be ok. then, multiple sex elfs show up.
This deck is really fast if you play it and mulligan it right. The only thing that I don't like is the combo game. Maybe post side chalice and perhaps root maze could make an appearance. Maybe there is some green creature that can be natural ordered out that can save us from tendrils...
Concordant Crossroads is a singleton card i run in my LEGACY combo elves. My list is like your list Minus the banned moxes and mana sources, and you cant imagine how many games crossroads has won me. If they counter your win con, you still want to be able to win that turn (you dont need the 4/4 beasts, i think 30-40 power worth of elves is enough). Or if they go pariah on that 1/1 for 1 tap to give protect from a color, with worship in play (believe it or not happened to me this past FNM) youre dead.
the hivemaster is an obvious inclusion when you make the correct choice of chord of calling over weird harvest. lets face it, with 4 clamps the insect tokens are already insane, add 4 glimpse to make sure the harvest's card advantage is useless and you're in a situation where chord of calling (and wirewood hivemaster) is the right path to victory.
oh, and you don't run enough lands to play mox diamond, and chrome mox is not good in the deck. It's not a combo as fast as TPS... but who really plays TPS anyway? everyone and their moms play tez, and that deck just rolls over tez.
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The interesting thing about us legacy players is that we consider Force of Will, Dark Ritual, Blood Moon, Tarmogoyf and Swords to Plowshare to be fair.
Instead of your current manabase:
1 Black Lotus
1 Chrome Mox
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
6 Forest
4 Gaea's Cradle ?!
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Diamond
1 Mox Emerald
I would go for this:
1 Black Lotus
5 Forest
1 Mox Emerald
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
Why not go for the stormwin with Grapeshot? You need to up the count of Llanowar and Fyndhorn Elves. Add 4 Wirewood Symbiote and 4 Quirion Ranger. Cut the hivemasters. Perhaps include an Regal Force and a Grapeshot. So either he dies from Grapeshot or gets beaten by elves the following turn.
1. I agree that the deck's manabase is too short to play mox diamond, but it's been awsome everytime it hits the table (and it's been pretty often). the deck has enough mana sources so you can give up a land drop in order to play mox. but I agree chrome mox #2 would be better (I didn't know it's been unrestricted :/)
2. Gaea's Cradle allows turn 1 kills. seriously, it's the best land card for this deck. If I open with elves (duh :P), BL/ESG/Moxen, glimpse of nature/skullclamp, and cradle, it's game. That's why I run 4 of them. they're not dead cards in turn one because you can play elves on turn one! Personally, I would marry Gaea's Cradle.
3. The kill condition: I tested the Mirror Entity combo, but I hated to use 2 slots in the deck for it (Concordant Crossroads + Mirror Entity). I like it because it makes you insects elf tokens, so you could go even more mana intense. But I liked the idea of using hunting pack + concordant crossroads! the grapeshot kill is valid too, deserves some playtesting. But can't a lonely concordant crossroads be a Kill? imagine all the insects tokens you make and don't clamp. these go to alpha strike. What do you guys think about it?
4. I haven't tested chord of calling because I'm lazy ^^" I'll do it so today.
5. I can't cut the hivemasters, they're just too insane to cut them out. But maybe I should include Quirion Ranger, or even Wirewood symbiote (I think the symbiote is just great when you have mirror entity... besides that, it's just "ok, I untap your elves that doesn't need to be untaped").
6. For those who are worried about CotV: I play a Viridian Shaman MD, because I know how chalice hurts the deck. sure, it can be hit by FoW, but Krosan Grip can't be tutored by the deck, so I prefer the Shaman ^^
Keep discussing ^^ I'll come up to a new list later.
Gaea's Cradle has some confusing errata on it - currently, it's considered to have two abilities for those questioning the inclusion. It has "tap, add G to your mana pool" - even if you control no creatures, this ability is still there, and it also has "tap, add G to your mana people for each creature you control".
Honestly though, you're absolutely right: if you choose to run Concordant Crossroads, any sort of storm card or even the Dragon are totally unnecessary and just win more. You could stick in an Elvish Champion, Imperious Perfect, or Heedless One for laughs and swing, or maybe double up on Concordant Crossroads instead in case one gets forced, or perhaps a Thorn of Amethyst. If your opponent Forces two xroads, their hand got completely obliterated in the process and it's highly unlikely they'll be able to make a comeback. Cradle just pwns tabernacle if they find one.
Edit: Earthcraft might be worth a shot in testing, as well. Makes your bugs better mana sources than Heritage Druid.
Gaea's Cradle has some confusing errata on it - currently, it's considered to have two abilities for those questioning the inclusion. It has "tap, add G to your mana pool" - even if you control no creatures, this ability is still there, and it also has "tap, add G to your mana people for each creature you control".
Definitely confusing because that isn't right. With 0 creatures out, you get 0 mana; the only special ruling is that this still counts as green for the purposes of Reflection Pool and the like - IE it counts as producing green mana, even if no creatures are in play and you therefore can't add any G to your mana pool.
Definitely confusing because that isn't right. With 0 creatures out, you get 0 mana; the only special ruling is that this still counts as green for the purposes of Reflection Pool and the like - IE it counts as producing green mana, even if no creatures are in play and you therefore can't add any G to your mana pool.
Gah, my mistake. I was wondering what exactly that thing meant and interpreted it wrong.
Worldgorgerdragon beat me to the link. Rich Shay has run a list like this before and had decent results, I think that the Grapeshot makes it easier to play thru counters.
I do like the Regal Force for card drawing. I also am not crazy about the Cradles, but of course maybe they just stretch your mulliganing skills.
I hope people will keep posting ideas for the deck. It's funny how blacker_lotus posted this the same day I had the exact same idea about elfball in vintage. Took me 5 days to register so I couldn't post till now.
Let's start off with lands. I really support Xantcha's suggestion. Windswept Heath and Wooded Foothills allows for thinning of your deck to let you draw the cards you need more efficiently. I too don't see Gaea's Cradle belonging in this deck, but I will try and test it.
Creatures are pretty much the same. Although I have yet to test the deck with Skullclamp, I'm really excited at the thought of it. I never had skullclamp in my original list to test, but i'll definitely try it out.
All in all, this is the decklist that I would personally test and run.
I'd consider cutting 1 chord, as they seem mana intensive. I would also consider cuttin 1 birchlore, and play like 3 wirewood symiote, I usually find that they are slightly better mid-combo. I might cut 1-2 visionary and maybe 1 hivemaster for like 2-3 fyndorn elves, as they are better mid-combo (1 mana) and they accellerate your win.
I would only run 1 eternal witness or 1 viridian shaman, getting both will probably abrubtly stop your combo, just because of the mana cost. I'd also run 1-2 esg, bcause you can grab them with pact
I'd consider cutting 1 chord, as they seem mana intensive. I would also consider cuttin 1 birchlore, and play like 3 wirewood symiote, I usually find that they are slightly better mid-combo. I might cut 1-2 visionary and maybe 1 hivemaster for like 2-3 fyndorn elves, as they are better mid-combo (1 mana) and they accellerate your win.
I would only run 1 eternal witness or 1 viridian shaman, getting both will probably abrubtly stop your combo, just because of the mana cost. I'd also run 1-2 esg, bcause you can grab them with pact
The point of running elfball in vintage is so that it can combo before turn 2-3 with the help of black lotus, mox emerald, and skullclamp. Having fyndhorn elves while cutting out draw cards like visionary and hivemaster destroys the whole point of it. Having 4 hivemasters along with skullclamps allow for an extra drawing engine. Fyndhorn elves does not contribute to it since concordant crossroads isn't in the main deck.
Cutting out viridian shaman and one chord of calling could work. If you do wirewood symbiote or quirion ranger would seem to be the logical cards to sub in.
wouldn't crop rotation together with 1 or 2 gae's blessing be good in this deck? it could provide a lot of mana
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My new houserules:
1. Every player saing exiled or battlefield will be kicked out.
2. Not using you mana deals 2 points of manaburn.
3. Combat damage goes over the Stack and you can freely assign it.
4. Lifelinks does stack and doesn't safe you from dying.
5. Tokens are owned bye the one who has made them.
Everyone thinking M10 will not affect a lot of cards or Limited a lot, either has no clue about magic or has never played limited or is getting paid by wizards to do propaganda.
I was told today that this kid on my team called 911 twice this morning and hung up both times. They called back and his dad answered. The reason the kid called 911? He got an erection and didn't know what to do. I wish I was making this up.
One thing I noticed is how there aren't enough ways to get you the cards you need, namely Glimpse of Nature. Sure there's skullclamp, but that alone requires you to use up 2 additional mana before drawing 2 cards, and that alone doesn't guarantee you drawing the cards you need. The staples can't really change because they all contribute to the combo, so I think the main focus for elfball in vintage is to find the cards that allow the searching for Glimpse or the last piece for the combo.
I can think of Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, or Mystic Tutor. However the problem is trying to and figure out how to incorporate those cards in the deck to try and make the combo go off as early and as consistent as possible.
Here are the staples that can't change for elfball.
What other cards are there that allow you to search for cards in your library and put it into your hand?
It's just frustrating when your opening hand is full of creatures and all you're missing is Glimpse, but there's no way to get it out for sure your next turn...
@YLC: If you're running 4 skullclamps AND 4 Glimpse of Nature you don't really need other tutors except summoner's pact and chord of calling =] maybe land grant, but I think demonic/vampiric/other tutors aren't really necessary. you'll draw your entire library anyway ;D
Yeah no need to splash black and weaken the manabase to wasteland...I think the grapeshot win is the best one seeing as how you'll easily deal 20 damage with it.
I like gaea's cradle in the combo; it can sure help a lot if you have exploration in the deck.
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
Yeah no need to splash black and weaken the manabase to wasteland...I think the grapeshot win is the best one seeing as how you'll easily deal 20 damage with it.
I like gaea's cradle in the combo; it can sure help a lot if you have exploration in the deck.
I understand where you guys are coming from, but how often do you draw a hand that's just missing a Glimpse to go off turn 2 or 3? And in the end you don't draw it until turns 6 or 7, and by then you probably would have lost your game.
I also don't find the grapeshot version runs well with skullclamp. It ends up killing you rather than help...
I understand where you guys are coming from, but how often do you draw a hand that's just missing a Glimpse to go off turn 2 or 3? And in the end you don't draw it until turns 6 or 7, and by then you probably would have lost your game.
I also don't find the grapeshot version runs well with skullclamp. It ends up killing you rather than help...
as you said, we have skullclamp. If you don't open a hand with glimpse, you may just mull it, or relay on a skullclamp. and that's where craddle shines, once you'll get sufficient mana to clamp all of your elves (since none of them has 2 or more thoughness).
I don't think the combo needs grapeshot, either. it's cool in the vintage enviroment, but it can be stifled very often. I still think the concordan crossroads + Wirewood hivemaster kill it's the more effective.
I'll work on my list and place it later.
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I'm trying to bring elfball to vintage, since here we have an awsome weapon: skullclamp. It's really awsome in the beginning of the game, or when you get flooded with lands. and we also have BL, Moxes, and everything else.
Here's the list I'm running:
6 Forest
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Birchlore Rangers
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
3 Llanowar Elves
3 Fyndhorn Elves
3 Wirewood Hivemaster
3 Visionary Elf
1 Eternal Witness
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Predator Dragon
4 Skullclamp
4 Summoner's Pact
2 Weird Harvest
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Diamond
1 Chrome Mox
1 Lotus Petal
The deck is pretty solid (much more solid than Extended Lists), making turn 2 kills very often, and making turn 1 kills possible without too much lucky involved. It uses the great draw engine of skullclamp + wirewood hivemaster's tokens to draw the entirely deck if you don't get a glimpse of nature. then it kills just like extended ones do, and if you get a resolved StP, you can just wait for the next turn and crash your elves against them
So, I hope you enjoy this ^^
I would much rather have a storm-based win-condition than a creature-based one.
Quirion Ranger or Elvish Pioneer might also serve the slot that Birchlore Rangers have unless you're interested in the red mana, but if you were going combo elves I would go for a harder to stop win con than the dragon - either Grapeshot or Hunting pack + Concordant Crossroads.
I dont like the hivemaster a lot, because he doesn't add to the combo all that much. He is a little expensive for an elf in the chain, and the insects can't be tapped as elves. They definately could be sideboard where the aggro approach is best, but the aggro aspect should just be a result of a failed combo, or extenuating circumstances. But that could be where progenitus could come into play.
I think that gaeas cradle may serve better as simple basics, because turn 1, that lone cradle will sit in your hand as you lose games to mana screw. Plus, waste kills it.
I also really think that at least a singleton grapehot is warranted. it allows you to kill outright on a combo turn (2 or three is pretty common) with relative ease, and is not that stressful on the mana base. (considering you use birchlore). I might cut down to 2 esg, with 4 you might be low on permanent mana sources, and you can always grab one with pact.
I also agree with the mox diamond quote. Chrome mox may not fit either, the card disadvantage could really hurt the deck, considering that the draw engine is based on having a lot of creatures in hand or in play.
Also, chalice is not played at 1 as often as it used to be, so at least for game 1 you should be ok. then, multiple sex elfs show up.
This deck is really fast if you play it and mulligan it right. The only thing that I don't like is the combo game. Maybe post side chalice and perhaps root maze could make an appearance. Maybe there is some green creature that can be natural ordered out that can save us from tendrils...
SIDENOTE: Chord of Calling is way better than Weird Harvest.
oh, and you don't run enough lands to play mox diamond, and chrome mox is not good in the deck. It's not a combo as fast as TPS... but who really plays TPS anyway? everyone and their moms play tez, and that deck just rolls over tez.
1 Black Lotus
1 Chrome Mox
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
6 Forest
4 Gaea's Cradle ?!
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Diamond
1 Mox Emerald
I would go for this:
1 Black Lotus
5 Forest
1 Mox Emerald
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
Why not go for the stormwin with Grapeshot? You need to up the count of Llanowar and Fyndhorn Elves. Add 4 Wirewood Symbiote and 4 Quirion Ranger. Cut the hivemasters. Perhaps include an Regal Force and a Grapeshot. So either he dies from Grapeshot or gets beaten by elves the following turn.
xoxo
1. I agree that the deck's manabase is too short to play mox diamond, but it's been awsome everytime it hits the table (and it's been pretty often). the deck has enough mana sources so you can give up a land drop in order to play mox. but I agree chrome mox #2 would be better (I didn't know it's been unrestricted :/)
2. Gaea's Cradle allows turn 1 kills. seriously, it's the best land card for this deck. If I open with elves (duh :P), BL/ESG/Moxen, glimpse of nature/skullclamp, and cradle, it's game. That's why I run 4 of them. they're not dead cards in turn one because you can play elves on turn one! Personally, I would marry Gaea's Cradle.
3. The kill condition: I tested the Mirror Entity combo, but I hated to use 2 slots in the deck for it (Concordant Crossroads + Mirror Entity). I like it because it makes you insects elf tokens, so you could go even more mana intense. But I liked the idea of using hunting pack + concordant crossroads! the grapeshot kill is valid too, deserves some playtesting. But can't a lonely concordant crossroads be a Kill? imagine all the insects tokens you make and don't clamp. these go to alpha strike. What do you guys think about it?
4. I haven't tested chord of calling because I'm lazy ^^" I'll do it so today.
5. I can't cut the hivemasters, they're just too insane to cut them out. But maybe I should include Quirion Ranger, or even Wirewood symbiote (I think the symbiote is just great when you have mirror entity... besides that, it's just "ok, I untap your elves that doesn't need to be untaped").
6. For those who are worried about CotV: I play a Viridian Shaman MD, because I know how chalice hurts the deck. sure, it can be hit by FoW, but Krosan Grip can't be tutored by the deck, so I prefer the Shaman ^^
Keep discussing ^^ I'll come up to a new list later.
Honestly though, you're absolutely right: if you choose to run Concordant Crossroads, any sort of storm card or even the Dragon are totally unnecessary and just win more. You could stick in an Elvish Champion, Imperious Perfect, or Heedless One for laughs and swing, or maybe double up on Concordant Crossroads instead in case one gets forced, or perhaps a Thorn of Amethyst. If your opponent Forces two xroads, their hand got completely obliterated in the process and it's highly unlikely they'll be able to make a comeback. Cradle just pwns tabernacle if they find one.
Edit: Earthcraft might be worth a shot in testing, as well. Makes your bugs better mana sources than Heritage Druid.
Definitely confusing because that isn't right. With 0 creatures out, you get 0 mana; the only special ruling is that this still counts as green for the purposes of Reflection Pool and the like - IE it counts as producing green mana, even if no creatures are in play and you therefore can't add any G to your mana pool.
Gah, my mistake. I was wondering what exactly that thing meant and interpreted it wrong.
http://morphling.de/reportarchives.php?report=269
I do like the Regal Force for card drawing. I also am not crazy about the Cradles, but of course maybe they just stretch your mulliganing skills.
Let's start off with lands. I really support Xantcha's suggestion. Windswept Heath and Wooded Foothills allows for thinning of your deck to let you draw the cards you need more efficiently. I too don't see Gaea's Cradle belonging in this deck, but I will try and test it.
Creatures are pretty much the same. Although I have yet to test the deck with Skullclamp, I'm really excited at the thought of it. I never had skullclamp in my original list to test, but i'll definitely try it out.
All in all, this is the decklist that I would personally test and run.
4x Heritage Druid
4x Nettle Sentinel
4x Llanowar Elves
4x Wirewood Hivemaster
4x Elvish Visionary
4x Birchlore Rangers
1x Eternal Witness
1x Viridian Shaman
1x Regal Force
4x Glimpse of Nature
4x Skullclamp
4x Summoner's Pact
4x Chord of Calling
1x Grapeshot
Mana Sources:
1x Black Lotus
1x Pendelhaven
1x Mox Emerald
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
5x Forest
I would only run 1 eternal witness or 1 viridian shaman, getting both will probably abrubtly stop your combo, just because of the mana cost. I'd also run 1-2 esg, bcause you can grab them with pact
The point of running elfball in vintage is so that it can combo before turn 2-3 with the help of black lotus, mox emerald, and skullclamp. Having fyndhorn elves while cutting out draw cards like visionary and hivemaster destroys the whole point of it. Having 4 hivemasters along with skullclamps allow for an extra drawing engine. Fyndhorn elves does not contribute to it since concordant crossroads isn't in the main deck.
Cutting out viridian shaman and one chord of calling could work. If you do wirewood symbiote or quirion ranger would seem to be the logical cards to sub in.
1. Every player saing exiled or battlefield will be kicked out.
2. Not using you mana deals 2 points of manaburn.
3. Combat damage goes over the Stack and you can freely assign it.
4. Lifelinks does stack and doesn't safe you from dying.
5. Tokens are owned bye the one who has made them.
Everyone thinking M10 will not affect a lot of cards or Limited a lot, either has no clue about magic or has never played limited or is getting paid by wizards to do propaganda.
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I can think of Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, or Mystic Tutor. However the problem is trying to and figure out how to incorporate those cards in the deck to try and make the combo go off as early and as consistent as possible.
Here are the staples that can't change for elfball.
4x Nettle Sentinel
4x Heritage Druid
4x Birchlore Rangers
4x Llanowar Elves/Fyndhorn Elves
1x Eternal Witness
4x Glimpse of Nature
3-4x Chord of Calling/Weird Harvest
1x Grapeshot (I personally run this over dragon or entity)
If tutors are going to be used, perhaps Elves of Deep Shadow, Gilt-Leaf Palace, City of Brass?
What other cards are there that allow you to search for cards in your library and put it into your hand?
It's just frustrating when your opening hand is full of creatures and all you're missing is Glimpse, but there's no way to get it out for sure your next turn...
I like gaea's cradle in the combo; it can sure help a lot if you have exploration in the deck.
Currently Playing:
Retired
I understand where you guys are coming from, but how often do you draw a hand that's just missing a Glimpse to go off turn 2 or 3? And in the end you don't draw it until turns 6 or 7, and by then you probably would have lost your game.
I also don't find the grapeshot version runs well with skullclamp. It ends up killing you rather than help...
as you said, we have skullclamp. If you don't open a hand with glimpse, you may just mull it, or relay on a skullclamp. and that's where craddle shines, once you'll get sufficient mana to clamp all of your elves (since none of them has 2 or more thoughness).
I don't think the combo needs grapeshot, either. it's cool in the vintage enviroment, but it can be stifled very often. I still think the concordan crossroads + Wirewood hivemaster kill it's the more effective.
I'll work on my list and place it later.