does anyone know how elfball combo goes in vintage?
i will post my list later when i find the deck...
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But nothing compares to Tarmogoyf. He was an anomaly, like Neo in the Matrix. In fact, one time I saw a Tarmogoyf stop bullets in midair, then fly off the table around the room a bit before winning the game.
But nothing compares to Tarmogoyf. He was an anomaly, like Neo in the Matrix. In fact, one time I saw a Tarmogoyf stop bullets in midair, then fly off the table around the room a bit before winning the game.
oh, ok, why not weird harvest, it's scaleable and it doesn't really matter if they grab dudes too
have you tried running Gaea's cradle, it gives first turn win with lotus, but you're in trouble if it's the only mana in hand...
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Quote from Feudrache »
But nothing compares to Tarmogoyf. He was an anomaly, like Neo in the Matrix. In fact, one time I saw a Tarmogoyf stop bullets in midair, then fly off the table around the room a bit before winning the game.
I like it better than Weird Harvest because it triggers a draw with Glimpse of Nature, has a 5/5 body (in case the combo doesn't go off), and draws me many more cards than Harvest would at the same cost. I had up to 2 Cradles in at one point, but I cut them for other stuff. This is not a deck that I often found myself mana-short with
This is my favorite deck to play in Legacy, and have seen many Vintage versions of the deck. Do you really feel Eternal Witness is worth it in that deck? I agree with everything else. Fastbond's a card I wish I could use in Legacy, but that's why I run Land Grant and Elvish Spirit Guide instead (no lotus makes me run those, too!)
One observation I made over years of playing it is that Wirewood Symbiote is usually better than Quirion Ranger, especially on an active Glimpse. Is Fastbond + the lack of dedicated targeted removal worth giving the 4x nod to Quirion?
I tend to agree on most account with Doomsday's version, as it really looks like the best for the current metagame. My deck is only 2 cards away, the 8th mana elf and the 7th fetchland becoming a 4th and 5th forest for slight but notable less chances of folding to moon effects, which are popular in the local metagame.
It fares really well against non-prison decks. The more you pilot the deck, the best you get at winning against all odds. You can win through cotv @ 1&2 AND trinisphere, I've seen that happen. Against Tez, you usually just aggro out the win.
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The interesting thing about us legacy players is that we consider Force of Will, Dark Ritual, Blood Moon, Tarmogoyf and Swords to Plowshare to be fair.
Orion - I give the extra slot to Quirion over the Symbiote because I find their abilities to be roughly equally useful, but she's an Elf so she pulls double duty. Eternal Witness getting back a Glimpse that's already been cast once that turn usually goes a long way toward winning. Plus it makes double Grapeshot plays possible at lower storm counts (or gets it back if it was Duressed), can grab you a Summoner's Pact to get your 2nd Nettle Sentinel of the turn to make going off fairly easy, etc. I really like E Witness as a one-of in the deck.
Another option if you don't have power or can't play with proxies is a few Elvish Spirit Guides. I've even used them as Pact targets when I was 1 mana off.
yeah, I just realized that's the only win-now win condition. I run several in Legacy, so E. Witness isnt as big of an issue: Mirror Entity, Biorhythm, Armageddon, Grapeshot.
Ranger in my experience has always been worse than Symbiote, because if you're on a Glimpse, that extra card draw for (free) or +3 mana, is a HUGE boost. But, as I said, that's in Legacy.
There are times I wish Symbiote was an Elf, but that's the other reason for Mirror Entity. Pay 1 mana, make him an elf, bounce him, drop him (Nettles untap) add GGG to pool, use 1 for Entity, bounce Symbiote and replay him, Nettles untapping again with a net of G in pool. Infinite storm (be careful with Glimpse). Is Entity worth trying out in Vintage as a 1-of? When it comes down, it usually ends the game immediately, letting even 1 attacker through.
I don't personally like Mirror Entity here because it's a counterable win condition, whereas Grapeshot has Storm. I also prefer Grapeshot because it's independent of the attack step, and having the aggro and storm choice is nice. If I was looking to test other options, I think I'd try Brain Freeze or even Tendrils of Agony before completely relying on the attack step, just because I think it might be redundant. Going with huge mana idea, I think I'd prefer Banefire or Kaervek's Torch to Entity as well.
Basically I think it's whatever you prefer though. It's pretty hard to lose once you've already drawn and played out your entire deck and have 30 mana floating. I just made my choice because I felt like it makes a dual threat. It's difficult to hate out Storm Combo + Aggro Hoards with the same cards, whereas if only Entity was used, they need only creature hate. Your mileage may vary
But nothing compares to Tarmogoyf. He was an anomaly, like Neo in the Matrix. In fact, one time I saw a Tarmogoyf stop bullets in midair, then fly off the table around the room a bit before winning the game.
But nothing compares to Tarmogoyf. He was an anomaly, like Neo in the Matrix. In fact, one time I saw a Tarmogoyf stop bullets in midair, then fly off the table around the room a bit before winning the game.
1.) Anyone who thinks cancel is viable should be shot. in the face. with a hammer.
2.) You misunderstand, what I was suggesting was the total exclusion of Spellstutter Sprite, because it just isnt that good anymore.
3.) Understand, Dredge is not really a Magic: The Gathering deck. When a card is playable in it, it doesn't mean it's a tournament playable card. It means it's playable in whatever crazy fantasy world that Dredge operates in.
Usually the kill of choice in Vintage is Grapeshot as the storm makes your kill more uncounterable, and it allows you to kill several creatures with your storm if that is holding you up then bring it back and do it again with witness. But Stifle (which continues to see only sparse play) and the new Mindbreak trap have caused some others to consider Banefire, but Banefire falls to Misdirection and of course the new Ricochet Trap (remember the spell doesn't have to be blue, you can pay the full cost). The old standby used to be Kaervek's Torch, because most players can't afford to keep an extra 2 mana on top of their counter cost open.
in competitive vintage i'd be more affraid of a misdirection than a stifle.
seriously, who plays with that?
so aside from removing a banefire, how should i modify? is there a good cookie cutter example of what vintage elfs should be? or is every deck very differnet, kind of like MBA?
ps.. list is last post of first page.
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1.) Anyone who thinks cancel is viable should be shot. in the face. with a hammer.
2.) You misunderstand, what I was suggesting was the total exclusion of Spellstutter Sprite, because it just isnt that good anymore.
3.) Understand, Dredge is not really a Magic: The Gathering deck. When a card is playable in it, it doesn't mean it's a tournament playable card. It means it's playable in whatever crazy fantasy world that Dredge operates in.
I agree wholeheartedly on the stifle, I guess that budget fish builds occasionally run it still - but I haven't seen a deck featuring stifle do well lately. As to what to modify, if you are porting over from Legacy? Look at Dooms list earlier on in the thread - but basically you want to add Lotus & Mox Emerald. I am not a fan of the list sporting 4 Cradles, I seem to have mulligan issues, and the Cradles seem to exacerbate those problems.
if you are porting over from Legacy? Look at Dooms list earlier on in the thread - but basically you want to add Lotus & Mox Emerald. I am not a fan of the list sporting 4 Cradles, I seem to have mulligan issues, and the Cradles seem to exacerbate those problems.
so basicly just shove in mana sources and skullclamp. is skullclamp really necessary as a 4 of? i haven't really played with it, so please go easy on me if i just asked a stupid question.
a also would think 4x cradles is a horrible idea. it doesn't supply you any mana on turn one. and multiples are useless. thats why i run one cradle and one crop rotation.
i'm also not a fan of all the mana elves in doom's list. i'd rather have more win conditions/utility. also, the new arbor elf is slightly better than llanowar elf, because you can get more mana out of it with a quirion ranger and a forest. he gives you more colored mana with duals too.
is fastbond really needeed? especially with my list with very limited lands? (helps draw juice instead of lands when glimpsing) i don't think it'd be worth it, as my list is pretty tight as is. how's this looking?
1.) Anyone who thinks cancel is viable should be shot. in the face. with a hammer.
2.) You misunderstand, what I was suggesting was the total exclusion of Spellstutter Sprite, because it just isnt that good anymore.
3.) Understand, Dredge is not really a Magic: The Gathering deck. When a card is playable in it, it doesn't mean it's a tournament playable card. It means it's playable in whatever crazy fantasy world that Dredge operates in.
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i will post my list later when i find the deck...
The version I like is:
1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Emerald
4x Skullclamp
Creatures
4x Birchlore Rangers
1x Eternal Witness
4x Fyndhorn Elves
4x Heritage Druid
4x Llanowar Elves
4x Nettle Sentinel
4x Quirion Ranger
1x Regal Force
1x Viridian Shaman
3x Wirewood Symbiote
1x Fastbond
Instants
4x Summoner's Pact
Sorceries
4x Glimpse Of Nature
1x Grapeshot
Lands
3x Bayou
3x Misty Rainforest
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Forest
2x Ravenous Trap
2x Tormod's Crypt
3x Xantid Swarm
2x Thoughtseize
2x Mindbreak Trap
2x Seal of Primordium
2x Viridian Shaman
Trade Thread
Modern
RWGBurnGWR
GUInfectUG
GRTronRG
UWGifts TronWU
URBGrixis DelverBRU
RGWZooWGR
Legacy
BUWTinFinsWUB
UROmniTellRU
BURTESRUB
GElves!G
GBPSIBG
RGBelcherGR
UBRGWDredgeWGRBU
UBAffinityBU
RBurnR
Vintage
UBGDoomsdayGBU
0Martello Shops0
GElves!G
UBTPSBU
UBelcherU
0Dredge0
Trade Thread
Modern
RWGBurnGWR
GUInfectUG
GRTronRG
UWGifts TronWU
URBGrixis DelverBRU
RGWZooWGR
Legacy
BUWTinFinsWUB
UROmniTellRU
BURTESRUB
GElves!G
GBPSIBG
RGBelcherGR
UBRGWDredgeWGRBU
UBAffinityBU
RBurnR
Vintage
UBGDoomsdayGBU
0Martello Shops0
GElves!G
UBTPSBU
UBelcherU
0Dredge0
have you tried running Gaea's cradle, it gives first turn win with lotus, but you're in trouble if it's the only mana in hand...
Trade Thread
Modern
RWGBurnGWR
GUInfectUG
GRTronRG
UWGifts TronWU
URBGrixis DelverBRU
RGWZooWGR
Legacy
BUWTinFinsWUB
UROmniTellRU
BURTESRUB
GElves!G
GBPSIBG
RGBelcherGR
UBRGWDredgeWGRBU
UBAffinityBU
RBurnR
Vintage
UBGDoomsdayGBU
0Martello Shops0
GElves!G
UBTPSBU
UBelcherU
0Dredge0
One observation I made over years of playing it is that Wirewood Symbiote is usually better than Quirion Ranger, especially on an active Glimpse. Is Fastbond + the lack of dedicated targeted removal worth giving the 4x nod to Quirion?
It fares really well against non-prison decks. The more you pilot the deck, the best you get at winning against all odds. You can win through cotv @ 1&2 AND trinisphere, I've seen that happen. Against Tez, you usually just aggro out the win.
Another option if you don't have power or can't play with proxies is a few Elvish Spirit Guides. I've even used them as Pact targets when I was 1 mana off.
Trade Thread
Modern
RWGBurnGWR
GUInfectUG
GRTronRG
UWGifts TronWU
URBGrixis DelverBRU
RGWZooWGR
Legacy
BUWTinFinsWUB
UROmniTellRU
BURTESRUB
GElves!G
GBPSIBG
RGBelcherGR
UBRGWDredgeWGRBU
UBAffinityBU
RBurnR
Vintage
UBGDoomsdayGBU
0Martello Shops0
GElves!G
UBTPSBU
UBelcherU
0Dredge0
Ranger in my experience has always been worse than Symbiote, because if you're on a Glimpse, that extra card draw for (free) or +3 mana, is a HUGE boost. But, as I said, that's in Legacy.
There are times I wish Symbiote was an Elf, but that's the other reason for Mirror Entity. Pay 1 mana, make him an elf, bounce him, drop him (Nettles untap) add GGG to pool, use 1 for Entity, bounce Symbiote and replay him, Nettles untapping again with a net of G in pool. Infinite storm (be careful with Glimpse). Is Entity worth trying out in Vintage as a 1-of? When it comes down, it usually ends the game immediately, letting even 1 attacker through.
Basically I think it's whatever you prefer though. It's pretty hard to lose once you've already drawn and played out your entire deck and have 30 mana floating. I just made my choice because I felt like it makes a dual threat. It's difficult to hate out Storm Combo + Aggro Hoards with the same cards, whereas if only Entity was used, they need only creature hate. Your mileage may vary
Trade Thread
Modern
RWGBurnGWR
GUInfectUG
GRTronRG
UWGifts TronWU
URBGrixis DelverBRU
RGWZooWGR
Legacy
BUWTinFinsWUB
UROmniTellRU
BURTESRUB
GElves!G
GBPSIBG
RGBelcherGR
UBRGWDredgeWGRBU
UBAffinityBU
RBurnR
Vintage
UBGDoomsdayGBU
0Martello Shops0
GElves!G
UBTPSBU
UBelcherU
0Dredge0
this is my list now
1x black lotus
1x mox emerald
4x skullclamp
Creatures
4x birchlore rangers
4x nettle sentinel
4x heritage druid
4x wirewood symbiote
2x elvish spirit guide
4x llanowar elves
4x fyndhorn elves
3x quirion ranger
1x viridian shaman
1x eternal witness
4x summoner's pact
Sorceries
4x glimpse of nature
1x grapeshot
Enchantments
1x fastbond
Lands
4x verdant catacombs
5x forest (don't have bayou)
4x gaea's cradle
elvish visionary is another possibility, and i haven't yet got a sideboard
you should prolly run a 1 or 2 of eternal witness, its really awkward if your opponent has stifle for your grapeshot
Seattle, WA
Team Still Had All These (ofc)
swerv'in your blighnin's since 2009
-1 spirit guide
+1 witness
IF i was to port this over to vintage (i've normaly been playing tezz and oath), what should i change?
here's my current (legacy) list..
4x Heritage Druid
4x Nettle Sentinel
4x Birchlore Rangers
4x Wirewood Symbiote
4x Llanowar Elves
4x Quirion Ranger
3x Elvish Visionary
Utility (4)
1x Priest of Titania
1x eternal witness
1x Regal Force
1x Mirror Entity
4x Summoner's Pact
4x Glimpse of Nature
3x Chord of Calling
I Win (3)
1x Grapeshot
1x Brain Freeze
1x banefire
Mana Sources: (16)
6 Forest
4 Elvish spirit guide
4 land grant
1 gea’s cradle
1 crop rotation
3x Viridian Zealot
1x Burrenton Forge-Tender
1x Loaming Shaman
4x Leyline of Lifeforce
3x Caller of the claw
3x pact of negation
careful of stifle!!!
Standard
Goblins
Extended
Nothing
Legacy
Spring tide
MY twitter
Http://twitter.com/Piggyboy1
seriously, who plays with that?
so aside from removing a banefire, how should i modify? is there a good cookie cutter example of what vintage elfs should be? or is every deck very differnet, kind of like MBA?
ps.. list is last post of first page.
so basicly just shove in mana sources and skullclamp. is skullclamp really necessary as a 4 of? i haven't really played with it, so please go easy on me if i just asked a stupid question.
a also would think 4x cradles is a horrible idea. it doesn't supply you any mana on turn one. and multiples are useless. thats why i run one cradle and one crop rotation.
i'm also not a fan of all the mana elves in doom's list. i'd rather have more win conditions/utility. also, the new arbor elf is slightly better than llanowar elf, because you can get more mana out of it with a quirion ranger and a forest. he gives you more colored mana with duals too.
is fastbond really needeed? especially with my list with very limited lands? (helps draw juice instead of lands when glimpsing) i don't think it'd be worth it, as my list is pretty tight as is. how's this looking?
4x Heritage Druid
4x Nettle Sentinel
4x Birchlore Rangers
4x Wirewood Symbiote
4x arbor elf
3x Quirion Ranger
Utility (3)
1x eternal witness
1x Mirror Entity
1x viridian shaman
Search: (6)
4x Summoner's Pact
2x Chord of Calling
Draw: (11)
2x Elvish Visionary
4x Glimpse of Nature
4x Skull clamp
1x Regal force
1x Grapeshot
1x brainfreeze
Mana Sources: (16)
1 black lotus
1 mox emerald
5 forest
3 Elvish spirit guide
4 land grant
1 gea’s cradle
1 crop rotation
3x Viridian Shaman
1x Burrenton Forge-Tender
1x Loaming Shaman
4x Leyline of Lifeforce
2x Caller of the claw
4x pact of negation