MTG Salvation

Hello everyone! I am here today to bring my favorite vintage deck to the format by starting discussion on it.

There are a few cards that don't make the cut in vintage

Stoneforge Mystic
Batterskull
Umezawa's Jitte

But, don't worry! We have some new toys we can put in

Skullclamp
Black Lotus
Mox Pearl
Strip Mine

Anyhow, here is my list for vintage Death and Taxes



It's pretty rough, but hey, that's the price you pay

Quote from nevilshute

Yeah... Null Rod seems somewhat counterproductive.

Yeah, I just noticed

the trouble with D&T in vintage is that the deck is based around Aether Vial, which is completely antisynergistic with the card it needs to play to have a chance against the field (Null Rod). i've tried to build this deck a few times, but it's not really workable

flickerwisp is also a lot worse in Vintage. vialing it in to mess with combat is much more effective in Legacy, and legacy also has more cards like Mox Diamond that you can Flicker effectively

Maybe the deck doesn't need null rod? We already have Phyrexian revoker

LEH.

Your post is a bit of Necro, but Vintage does offer far less change then other formats so your comments do have relevance.

Care to share with us your D&T Vintage list? Any movement in these forums helps offset the sluggishness of this area.

That list needs at lest 3 Null Rod in it somewhere. Maybe that is what you can put in in place of the lands you plan on cutting. 3 Null Rod.

Being that this deck is mono-white and all, wouldn't Stony Silence be a better choice than Null Rod since it's harder to remove?

Good call me missed that.

Ok, I see your point. Personally, I would try and add two Enlightened Tutor. Cut a Quarter and maybe a Misstep. As I look at that list I just see a pair of Tutors helping on and off in the main and blowing everything out of the water after you side. It's like having two more of your answers. Also Spirit is a major hose against some decks and can kill Dredge first game. Fetching it is going to be effective.

Quote from Dice_Bag

Ok, I see your point. Personally, I would try and add two Enlightened Tutor. Cut a Quarter and maybe a Misstep. As I look at that list I just see a pair of Tutors helping on and off in the main and blowing everything out of the water after you side. It's like having two more of your answers. Also Spirit is a major hose against some decks and can kill Dredge first game. Fetching it is going to be effective.

Super confused how Spirit kills dredge in game one. Dredge is a replacement effect, as long as they never draw a card they can dredge as much as they want.

I havent played much vintage recently (like in the past two months.) Last time I played I top8ed with White Trash which was fun. It's fun to play bad cards and have your opponent give you strange looks. I lost in the top 8 to rector flash which was a deck I had never heard or seen of before so I didn't know the best way to hate it out. Plus between his mainboard and SB he was running 4 copies of Toxic Deluge which is rough because this deck often forces you to over extend in order to pressure your opponent.



After playing I'd definitely swap the Jitte with a Sword of Fire and Ice. It's just better in the matchups you want a wearable equipment IMO. I want to put Spirit of the Labyrinth and a singleton of Brimaz somewhere in here but the list is massively tight. I don't know what to swap out.

Edit: Figure I'd put some things of notes. I don't like Mother of Runes in vintage. It doesn't do anything vs dredge and Workshops, which is enough for me to not play it. The other big thing is that I like to vary the CMC in my hatebears whenever I can because there is a lot of Engineered Explosives in my meta.

Quote from TheDasuri

Quote from Dice_Bag

Ok, I see your point. Personally, I would try and add two Enlightened Tutor. Cut a Quarter and maybe a Misstep. As I look at that list I just see a pair of Tutors helping on and off in the main and blowing everything out of the water after you side. It's like having two more of your answers. Also Spirit is a major hose against some decks and can kill Dredge first game. Fetching it is going to be effective.

Super confused how Spirit kills dredge in game one. Dredge is a replacement effect, as long as they never draw a card they can dredge as much as they want.

When they Powder and mull to 4 to get Bazaar and have no actual dredger, they need to draw, sometimes more than once, to get set-up. You stop that and suddenly all Bazaar reads is "Discard 3"

Is anyone out there interested in talking about this deck still? I copied LEH's list above and did not care for the MOMs, I replaced them with simian spirit guides for more turn one plays. Also put serenity in board in place of Leyline's and maindecked stoney silence.

I have just built this deck in paper, I have been playing it on modo for a few weeks and it can surprise some people. I will begin write ups once I have more experience with it. I have found that turn 1 hate card is very important, I am up to 4 spirit guides and 1 lotus petal right now, but the list might need more.

As always with a hate list, it can be very effective when it's hate is valid but can die to a random creature based zoo deck, when it's hate comes up as semi-useless.

Hello all,

I play Legacy DnT and really like this concept. Looking to get into Vintage, and as I don't want to break the bank, I might start here.

Quote from Flakmonkey »

I have just built this deck in paper, I have been playing it on modo for a few weeks and it can surprise some people. I will begin write ups once I have more experience with it. I have found that turn 1 hate card is very important, I am up to 4 spirit guides and 1 lotus petal right now, but the list might need more.

How has this deck been performing, and can you post your list? Additionally, do any of you think this is viable against delver and MUD? These are the threats that I see most commonly. Further, how well does Mental Misstep perform in most matches?

Hello All! I play a very weird Death and Taxes list in Legacy that I've had great success porting into Vintage. Considering the lack of classical Death and Taxes elements in Vintage versions of the deck, I've taken to calling it Hatebears. But no matter, on to my list:



Obviously, there some weird choices here. Stony Silence paired with the Power seems strange. The thing is, I value the small chance of insane opening plays over potential late game bricks. Containment Priest has done insane work in Vintage, even more so than in Legacy. Oath, Dredge, and Tinker turn into the worlds shittiest cards. The fact that it's uncounterable a significant portion of the time is just gravy. Kataki is a savage beating against shops as well. I've had some fairly successful showings with this deck actually. I've been to 4 events over the past couple of months and went positive at all of them. I additionally Top 8ed a 40m man tournament.

The only deck I've ever had a problem with is Merfolk, as their creatures just outclass ours and our disruption doesn't work against opposing creature decks. Ideally, a good sideboard plan would address this issue. Additionally, I've absolutely loved playing a deck with a curve that starts and ends at 2cmc. Dodging every single mental misstep ever while being able to fire off all 9 wastelands with near impunity is insane. Cavern of Souls is a beating in Vintage as well. Most decks only run a singleton Strip Mine, unlike the near ubiquity of Wasteland in Legacy. Overall, I think this deck is a fantastic budget option for Vintage.

Quote from FlaviusBelisaurius »

Hello All! I play a very weird Death and Taxes list in Legacy that I've had great success porting into Vintage. Considering the lack of classical Death and Taxes elements in Vintage versions of the deck, I've taken to calling it Hatebears. But no matter, on to my list:

Vintage HatebearsMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
Creatures(27) 4x Containment Priest 3x Kataki, War's Wage 4x Leonin Arbiter 2x Leonin Relic-Warder 3x Aegis of the Gods 3x Phyrexian Revoker 4x Spirit of the Labyrinth 4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben	Lands(22) 3x Cavern of Souls 4x Ghost Quarter 3x Karakas 7x Plains 1x Strip Mine 4x Wasteland	Artifacts(2) 1x Black Lotus 1x Mox Pearl Enchantments(5) 3x Rest in Peace 2x Stony Silence Instants(4) 4x Path to Exile

Obviously, there some weird choices here. Stony Silence paired with the Power seems strange. The thing is, I value the small chance of insane opening plays over potential late game bricks. Containment Priest has done insane work in Vintage, even more so than in Legacy. Oath, Dredge, and Tinker turn into the worlds *****tiest cards. The fact that it's uncounterable a significant portion of the time is just gravy. Kataki is a savage beating against shops as well. I've had some fairly successful showings with this deck actually. I've been to 4 events over the past couple of months and went positive at all of them. I additionally Top 8ed a 40m man tournament.

The only deck I've ever had a problem with is Merfolk, as their creatures just outclass ours and our disruption doesn't work against opposing creature decks. Ideally, a good sideboard plan would address this issue. Additionally, I've absolutely loved playing a deck with a curve that starts and ends at 2cmc. Dodging every single mental misstep ever while being able to fire off all 9 wastelands with near impunity is insane. Cavern of Souls is a beating in Vintage as well. Most decks only run a singleton Strip Mine, unlike the near ubiquity of Wasteland in Legacy. Overall, I think this deck is a fantastic budget option for Vintage.

You have problem with merfolk because you aren't running SFM with a pro blue sword or Jitte. SFM should be in the board to help you vs creature decks. That's what its there for.

Also I havent played vintage heavily in a few months, but there is certainly merit to changing your curve. Your current list is blown out by engineered explosives which in the north east is very popular. I'd be wary about playing this list for that reason.

Quote from TheDasuri »

You have problem with merfolk because you aren't running SFM with a pro blue sword or Jitte. SFM should be in the board to help you vs creature decks. That's what its there for.

Also I havent played vintage heavily in a few months, but there is certainly merit to changing your curve. Your current list is blown out by engineered explosives which in the north east is very popular. I'd be wary about playing this list for that reason.

You're absolutely correct, and I do run SFM with Sword of Fire and Ice/Jitte in the board. The problem is, this kind of deck lives and dies on winning Game 1, since post-board most decks have a ton of answers.

In regards to the curve, here's my thoughts in general. 1) 1-drops are great, we all know that. The problem is that Death and Taxes has no good one drops in vintage. Mom is nearly universally irrelevant. Vial is an incredible non-combo with 6 cards in the deck. I've tested Dryad Militant in that slot. It's actually not terrible, it's just not good enough. There's also huge merit to dodging all of the Mental Missteps in the format. Obviously, at 2cmc there are a wonderful amount of mono-white hate bears. I play nearly all of them. At 3cmc, there's not much. Aven Mindscensor is good but not stellar, and Glowrider is just sad. Everything else sucks, particularly without Vial. In no way am I arguing that this is a Tier 1 strategy, and since it's not, the way we win is by jamming as much disruption as fast as possible and hoping to get there.

As far as EE goes, that's often what Revoker names. Additionally, it can be very hard for a deck with one or two copies of EE to actually find it in their 60 through all the disruption. Finally, it's ridiculously easy to cut Vintage decks off 2 colors, particularly with 5 strip mines and 4 wastes. Additionally, not over extending is a very important aspect of playing this deck. I don't deny getting EE'ed does happen, but no where as consistently as people who run it want it to. It's also impossible for them to recur it through my hate, so there's that.

I firmly believe archetypes like this will only get stronger in Vintage as more hate cards are printed. Containment Priest is literally tailor made for this deck to crush unfair creature oriented combo decks. I cannot stress enough how good priest has been against Dredge, Oath, Tinker, even Shops sometimes. I encourage anyone who has the cards to play a vintage Death and Taxes list. It's incredibly satisfying to play Thalia in a room full of Gushes, or Kataki in a room full of artifacts. And when you lose, which happens, you at least have the satisfaction of playing fair in the most unfair format of Magic.

Quote from FlaviusBelisaurius »

You're absolutely correct, and I do run SFM with Sword of Fire and Ice/Jitte in the board. The problem is, this kind of deck lives and dies on winning Game 1, since post-board most decks have a ton of answers.

In regards to the curve, here's my thoughts in general. 1) 1-drops are great, we all know that. The problem is that Death and Taxes has no good one drops in vintage. Mom is nearly universally irrelevant. Vial is an incredible non-combo with 6 cards in the deck. I've tested Dryad Militant in that slot. It's actually not terrible

I agree. What's holding this deck back is a lack of really strong 1 drop hatebears in white. Dryad militant is good but the rest are lacking. I've tried Gideon's lawkeeper, judge's familiar, mother of runes[/quote], icatian javileneers and beaters likestudent of warfare.

They're all lacking but one more would help the deck a ton.

I firmly believe archetypes like this will only get stronger in Vintage as more hate cards are printed. Containment Priest is literally tailor made for this deck to crush unfair creature oriented combo decks. I cannot stress enough how good priest has been against Dredge, Oath, Tinker, even Shops sometimes. I encourage anyone who has the cards to play a vintage Death and Taxes list. It's incredibly satisfying to play Thalia in a room full of Gushes, or Kataki in a room full of artifacts. And when you lose, which happens, you at least have the satisfaction of playing fair in the most unfair format of Magic.

I know how strong the deck is, although I haven't played much since containment priest came out. I was a huge proponent of this deck for a while. It's very strong when no one has their hate. I'm concerned though that with a lot of delver and mentor we may get hit with splash hate.