I am trying to decide what deck I want to play in the current vintage meta, which is stronger against the field, or what matches are each deck good, bad, equal against?
Noble fish and various beats decks like GWB are crazy good right now. It really depends on what people are playing by you, but MUD can do decent depending on how much hate folks are packing, Oath is pretty good, and Dredge can usually get you far also.
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"Bottled life. Not as tasty as I'm used to, rather stale, but it has the same effect." Baron Sengir My Deck Index
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:symw::symu::symb::symr::symg: Last Stand Legacy
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:symu::symr: Landstill
Sorry Baron, I was trying to decide between Noble fish and Bant.. I am still trying to figure out what the main difference is between the two, and how each ones match ups are against the rest of the field.
I think Noble Fish, plays more like the classic Fish deck. Bant is more tempo driven.
Fish is heavier control, like getting a hatebear (Null Rod) or control piece a la Trygon Predator out really early with Mana Drain, Force of Will protection. Fish wins through attrition, it;s basically just short of being a full on control deck.
Bant is more on the tempo side. Sacrificing the long game for powerful early spells that require almost no Mana, but gets worse the longer the game lasts.
I think Noble Fish is really strong, because of the nature of vintage.
Not in this type of deck, IMO. GSZ has seen play in some of the other U decks that have more moxes and gush/bond. It'll fetch up their 1-of scavenging ooze, for example.
Trying to get some discussion going on this deck seams almost impossible...
How do you all feel about GSZ? Should it be there? Or is it too slow?
Posting decklists would probably help spur discussion. Also, asking questions with acronyms doesnt really spur discussion either. I dont even know what GSZ means.
I have been devouring the boards looking for decklists....
Noble Fish
A Vintage deck, by Shawn Griffiths
7th place at a Miscellaneous tournament in Selden, New York, United States on 2012-03-25
As reported at http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=44045.0
Print this deck!
Maindeck:
Artifacts
1 Black Lotus
3 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
I am looking at working around these 3 lists.
I was just wondering why no one ran Thalia? Or Green Sun's Zenith? Is jace the right card for this deck? Or does he not fit?
I really don't monitor Vintage very often, but all the lists running Grafdigger's Cage will not run GSZ for obvious reasons (Cage shuts off GSZ).
I believe all the lists--especially the Tiago list--run too many instants and sorceries to play Thalia profitably.
In the meantime, I really like Edric Fish lists--they look like Selkie lists, except you can actually attack with all your creatures and not just a single Selkie.
After playing a few vintage tournaments I really dont think graffdiggers cage in the main is the way to go... It helps dont get me wrong. I love being able to shut off tinkerbot and snapcaster...and its amazing against dredge, but it doesnt do much against a lot of match ups, and it does stop you from being able to gsz...
I really do like the stony silence in the main, those have been amazing every time.
After playing a few vintage tournaments I really dont think graffdiggers cage in the main is the way to go... It helps dont get me wrong. I love being able to shut off tinkerbot and snapcaster...and its amazing against dredge, but it doesnt do much against a lot of match ups, and it does stop you from being able to gsz...
I really do like the stony silence in the main, those have been amazing every time.
The cage also helps you defeat oath, which is the bane of creature like noble fish or bant, the fact it also hurts dredge and some tinker targets makes me belive the card is maindeckable.
my only problem with these decks is they seem to have a bad match up against shop decks when they land early threats, anyone have any tech to help the matchup?
Ive been told !Porcelain Legionnaire is great against the agro versions. STony silence helps the metalworker/kuldotha forgemaster versions.
This deck has a problem with running out of gas. I have always wanted to draw more cards. I really want to fit 2-3 Jace in it... Eldric has always been okay, but he just never draws me enough cards to keep up.
Since the power pieces I have are closest to this deck, its what I will most likely be running at gencon. I still have 1-2 more tournaments before then to work out a final list.
At Bazaar of Moxen, a BUG fish deck came in top 8... it looks pretty sweet... I don't know what it lost too in the finals, but its an option as well...
The best card against Workshop is always AEther Vial since it upends their whole strategy of preventing you from playing spells and controlling the board, but Vial & Stony Silence compete. Revoker is good against Forgemaster and post-board, they are good to stop Triskelion which is the most damaging play. Legionnaire is also very good. Sideboard out all counter magic; Mental Misstep stops nothing of note and Force of Will won't always be free and will always two-for-one you, which is terrible against a deck who has the same core strategy but bigger creatures. Naming Tangle Wire with Meddling Mage is the right call 75% of the time.
Fish usually plays Kataki, War's Wage as its trump to Workshop. Other options are Energy Flux, Sacred Ground, Serenity, Tower of the Magistrate (because post board, they are going to kill your creatures with Razormane/Duplicant, etc.), and Student of Warfare (the first strike 3/3 stops Golems). With all your removal, you should be fine. If things get desperate, you could sideboard a Mana Crypt or Ancient Tomb.
the build of shops I was losing to was the metal worker type, i fit another kataki into the main and a 4th in the board an i noticed the mathup became much more favorable thank you.
So I am going to go with Noble Fish, now just need to iron out a deck and work out the kinks. I have played the deck for several months, but I always feel like its just good enough to win, but never over powering an opponent. I guess you take the 50% match up across the board since no decks just steamroll this deck, at least not that I know of.
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Buy All the planeswalkers!!!
Buy All the Dual Lands!!!
Buy All the fetches!
Create tons of EDH Decks!!!
Eat Nothing but Oats!! (LOL, not true)
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Get her Pregnant only Once!
Teach my Son/Daughter Sports and magic cards!!!
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Even budget builds are good to look over, and good to get ideas. The 2 things I notice the most are... You do not need Sol Ring, or Mana Crypt, you dont have enough spells (except for green sun) that require colorless mana. I would take those out for Elvish spirit guides.
The second thing I noticed is the lack of qasali pridemage. You need multiple of them, they are one of the best cards in ur deck. They help against every match up.
But thank you for sharing your deck list. Ill post my powered version tonight when I get home.
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My Deck Index
Main Decks:
:symw::symu::symb::symr::symg: Last Stand
Legacy
:symu::symb: Reanimator
:symb::symr: Dragon Stompy
Vintage
:symu::symb::symg: Demon Oath
:symu::symr: Landstill
My Deck Index
Main Decks:
:symw::symu::symb::symr::symg: Last Stand
Legacy
:symu::symb: Reanimator
:symb::symr: Dragon Stompy
Vintage
:symu::symb::symg: Demon Oath
:symu::symr: Landstill
Fish is heavier control, like getting a hatebear (Null Rod) or control piece a la Trygon Predator out really early with Mana Drain, Force of Will protection. Fish wins through attrition, it;s basically just short of being a full on control deck.
Bant is more on the tempo side. Sacrificing the long game for powerful early spells that require almost no Mana, but gets worse the longer the game lasts.
I think Noble Fish is really strong, because of the nature of vintage.
Thank you mchief111, great sig
Lvl 37 Planeswalker
Current:
Legacy:
:symu::symb::symr::symw::symg: TES |
Vintage:
:symb::symu: Titan Dredge | :symb::symu::symw: Bomberman
Modern:
:symu::symr: Kiki-Twin | :symr::symg: Tron
Standard:
Wip
EDH:
:symb::symu::symw: Zur
How do you all feel about GSZ? Should it be there? Or is it too slow?
Posting decklists would probably help spur discussion. Also, asking questions with acronyms doesnt really spur discussion either. I dont even know what GSZ means.
BUWGRChilds PlayGRWUB
BUWGR Highlander GRWUB
UBSquee's Shapeshifting PetBU
BW Multiplayer Control WB
RG Changeling GR
UR Mana FlareRU
UMerfolkU
B MBMC B
Noble Fish
A Vintage deck, by Shawn Griffiths
7th place at a Miscellaneous tournament in Selden, New York, United States on 2012-03-25
As reported at http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=44045.0
Print this deck!
Maindeck:
Artifacts
1 Black Lotus
3 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
Artifact Creatures
2 Ethersworn Canonist
Creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Trygon Predator
Enchantments
3 Stony Silence
Instants
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
1 Path to Exile
2 Steel Sabotage
Legendary Creatures
2 Edric, Spymaster of Trest
Sorceries
1 Time Walk
Basic Lands
1 Forest
1 Island
Lands
1 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Strip Mine
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
3 Wasteland
Sideboard:
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Dismember
1 Flusterstorm
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Path to Exile
3 Ravenous Trap
1 Steel Sabotage
1 Forest
1 Wasteland
Maindeck:
Artifacts
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
Creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Trygon Predator
Instants
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
3 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Mana Drain
3 Mental Misstep
1 Misdirection
3 Swords to Plowshares
Planeswalkers
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Sorceries
1 Ponder
Basic Lands
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains
Lands
3 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
3 Windswept Heath
Sideboard:
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Honor the Fallen
1 Mindbreak Trap
3 Nature's Claim
2 Path to Exile
1 Swords to Plowshares
Noble Fish
Featured by Matt Elias on 2012-03-25 (Vintage)
As written about in http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/23829.html
Print this deck!
Maindeck:
Artifacts
1 Black Lotus
3 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
Artifact Creatures
2 Ethersworn Canonist
Creatures
3 Meddling Mage
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Trygon Predator
Enchantments
3 Stony Silence
Instants
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
2 Steel Sabotage
Sorceries
1 Time Walk
Basic Lands
1 Forest
1 Island
Lands
1 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Strip Mine
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
3 Wasteland
Sideboard:
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Tarmogoyf
2 Dismember
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Path to Exile
3 Ravenous Trap
1 Steel Sabotage
1 Tropical Island
1 Wasteland
I am looking at working around these 3 lists.
I was just wondering why no one ran Thalia? Or Green Sun's Zenith? Is jace the right card for this deck? Or does he not fit?
I believe all the lists--especially the Tiago list--run too many instants and sorceries to play Thalia profitably.
In the meantime, I really like Edric Fish lists--they look like Selkie lists, except you can actually attack with all your creatures and not just a single Selkie.
I really do like the stony silence in the main, those have been amazing every time.
The cage also helps you defeat oath, which is the bane of creature like noble fish or bant, the fact it also hurts dredge and some tinker targets makes me belive the card is maindeckable.
I also feel stony silence is beccoming better than null rod these days...
my only problem with these decks is they seem to have a bad match up against shop decks when they land early threats, anyone have any tech to help the matchup?
This deck has a problem with running out of gas. I have always wanted to draw more cards. I really want to fit 2-3 Jace in it... Eldric has always been okay, but he just never draws me enough cards to keep up.
Since the power pieces I have are closest to this deck, its what I will most likely be running at gencon. I still have 1-2 more tournaments before then to work out a final list.
At Bazaar of Moxen, a BUG fish deck came in top 8... it looks pretty sweet... I don't know what it lost too in the finals, but its an option as well...
The best card against Workshop is always AEther Vial since it upends their whole strategy of preventing you from playing spells and controlling the board, but Vial & Stony Silence compete. Revoker is good against Forgemaster and post-board, they are good to stop Triskelion which is the most damaging play. Legionnaire is also very good. Sideboard out all counter magic; Mental Misstep stops nothing of note and Force of Will won't always be free and will always two-for-one you, which is terrible against a deck who has the same core strategy but bigger creatures. Naming Tangle Wire with Meddling Mage is the right call 75% of the time.
Fish usually plays Kataki, War's Wage as its trump to Workshop. Other options are Energy Flux, Sacred Ground, Serenity, Tower of the Magistrate (because post board, they are going to kill your creatures with Razormane/Duplicant, etc.), and Student of Warfare (the first strike 3/3 stops Golems). With all your removal, you should be fine. If things get desperate, you could sideboard a Mana Crypt or Ancient Tomb.
the build of shops I was losing to was the metal worker type, i fit another kataki into the main and a 4th in the board an i noticed the mathup became much more favorable thank you.
anyway, just sharing.
3 cold-eyed selkie
3 snapcastermage
1 qasali pridemage
4 force of will
3 stifle
3 mental misstep
3 spellpierce
1 brainstorm
1 ponder
1 swords to plowshares
1 hurky's recall
1 green sun's zenith
3 stony silence
4 noble heirarch
1 solring
1 mana crypt
1 lotus petal
4 tropical island
4 misty rainforest
4 flooded strand
3 wasteland
1 island
1 forest
1 plains
i got not much in mind for sideboard. but since your problem is workshops, i would suggest this.
4 energy flux
4 pithing needle
3 hurkyl's recall
EDH - UWGrand Arbiter Agustin IV
UBW Oloro, Ageless Ascetic
Modern - Mono U tron / Polymorph / NFTW (ninja for the win)GR tron GR
Buy All the Dual Lands!!!
Buy All the fetches!
Create tons of EDH Decks!!!
Eat Nothing but Oats!! (LOL, not true)
Train MMA!!!
Marry My girlfriend!!!
Get her Pregnant only Once!
Teach my Son/Daughter Sports and magic cards!!!
Continue my legacy son!!!/Daughter!!
The second thing I noticed is the lack of qasali pridemage. You need multiple of them, they are one of the best cards in ur deck. They help against every match up.
But thank you for sharing your deck list. Ill post my powered version tonight when I get home.