After taking a brief hiatus from magic and vintage, I have returned to a format of an unrestricted gush and a dominant workshop meta. I'm not exactly sure why, but Im guessing it's because of lodestone golem. My answer to both gush decks and shop decks is ankh sligh. In the past, from what I've read, ankh sligh had a slight resurgence during the past gush era, but the main difference between then and now is the inclusion of white. So far I've only been conceptualizing the deck, and have yet to test or build it. I figure Ill be better able to explain it by just writing a general build out and going from there:
first of all is the inclusion of ankh of mishra, and possibly zo-zu the marvel hero.
so lets just say for now:
4 Ankh of Mishra
2 Zo-Zu the Punisher
ankh effects can seriously damage gush strategies, dealing a good 2-4 damage per turn normally, and even more when gush starts working. Against workshop, ankh works well with other synergies to help race against shops, who have trouble with fast damage (or so Im told)
This package works as both effective mana denial against the vulnerable shop decks and extra damage dealing via ghost quarter vs other decks.
Thats the standard package, the rest is fairly open to interpretation, and I encourage others to due their own investigations into the build.
From here I'm looking to run 4 null rod to aid in the bout against workshop mana denial as well as against tezzeret and other powered builds; which cause them to play more lands to make up for the lost mana.
4 null rod
Next we have a split decision for which direction we want to take this build. The two defining options are
Canonist becomes a lock spell that helps cap the mana advantage of ghost quarter and possibly path to exile. Using canonist would turn the build into a more disruptive, control build, while pyrostatic pillar would turn the deck into a more damage oriented build. Both are very effective against gush in their own way, with only pyrostatic pillar being mildly useful against shop decks.
After that, I have considered including 3-4 path to exile as a means of non-life gaining removal and ankh damage; though this is pretty risky against tezzeret and combo.
3-4 path to exile
the rest of the build is pretty much open ended to either of the two interpretations.Some other cards that I've thought about include:
price of progress: large amounts of damage to help finish opponent off, though possibly counteractive with 9 strip.
magus of the moon: disrupts shop decks like a mofo, works pretty well against oath too; and pretty much every deck in general. competes with aven mindcensor for 3cc slot
Aven mindcensor: answer to tinker and tutors, as well as fetch denial; yah hes also really good
both of these 3cc guys disrupt the ghost quarter and path to exile ankh synergy so im not sure how to make the balance.
land tax: Ive heard some people say I should try it out, works well after path or strip effect, and is a source of card advtange and super deck thinning. Allows for low land count, but still kinda unnecessary. thoughts?
seal of cleansing: really diverse hate/disruption; you can supply the possibilities.
jotun grunt: good beater and grave refresher for ghost quarter and path effects, but once again; hurts the possibility for mana denial from ghost quarter so once again, not sure about finding the balance
isamaru and lions and knights: gets the damage in pretty nice as they are never countered and can add up; could work nicely against racing stax, but idunno
lightning bolt, chain lighting: id probably run at least 4 bolt, not sure if chain lighting should go in for more of a burn package
thorn of amethyst: possibly decent mana denial which allows fast creatures to race. But kinda jank.
red elemental blast: counterspells of deck, menendian main decked em, so why not.
crucible of worlds: runs into waste locks alot quicker than just 5 strip, so sounds cool. also good vs shop
Pillage: possible mana denial follow up and arti hate.
mana tithe: possible counter, but once again, Im not sure if this build will become a strict mana denial build or will allow the opponent to build up a certain degree of mana via ghost quarter and path.
goblin guide: fast beater for burn build, lets us see whats coming, and we'll probably want them to have lands.
lotus/moxen:obvious inclusion
shrapnel blast: sack either ankh, rod, or possibly thorn or artifact lands. Thats one quarter of their freekin life; fun stuffumz.
leonin arbiter: if the mana denial route is effective enough then maybe this to take aven slot and allow for magus in 3cc slot.
tunnel ignus: possiblely gruesome if combined with an aggressive package of path and ghost quarter effects. Are there any other decent cards with ghost quarter effects?
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I'm feeling white Red with stone rain and pillage! Use Aether vial to get the ignus and arbiter, magus ect out and just throw mad destruction their way.
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well, I was referring to the fact that red, as a color, is already well equipped to deal with lands, creatures, and artifacts. shaman is excellent at blowing up moxen, this we knew. The problem with liquimetal coating is that it doesn't do much to further your game plan on it's own. Strip mine, at the very least, is a source of colorless mana. Liquimetal coating might make an interesting board to say, tezz to blow him up, though mostly you could just a bolt at him.
Here's my first impression on a mono black ankh sligh build. From previous testing of a classic mono red build, I have found that there is not nearly enough available disruption to back up the burn, while playing two colors(RW) and 9 strip leads to an unstable mana base. Maybe mono black will hold the answer to our questions. *kudos to dontgetcaught for the sinkhole mention*
Land
4 waste
4 ghost quarter
1 strip
4 bloodstained mire
1 verdant catacomb
5 swamp
Creatures
4 dark confidant
4 death's shadow
4 arrogant bloodlord
other
4 thoughtseize
4 sinkhole
4 dark ritual
4 ankh
4 duress
4 null rod
3 diabolic edict
2 demonic, vamp tutor
1 crucible of worlds
1 black lotus
I havent tested this out yet, but from theory alone, the deck has a strong early game with 8 duress effects, as well as lotus/dark ritual for duress/two drop combos. Hopefully the predominately land based mana denial engine will prove disruptive enough against the field in general; while ankh sligh forces out heavy damage as a result. Ankh, in combination with confidant, thoughtseize, and fetches help bring out a reasonably large death's shadow; though i have zero experience in playing the guy and seeing how big he can usually be. This means that we must drop an ankh as soon as possible to a)deal out the most relevant damage to an early game opponent and b)setting the first crucial set of damage to yourself in order to bring out the shadow. I added a single crucible as a tutorable option for a strip lock as well as aid in the death's shadow pump. The deck is 61 cards, and Im fine with that; as cutting down on edicts or beaters is unacceptable, for every last card count is needed to maintain relevance against the format. Arrogant bloodlord is an alternative option to negator, that while it has a weakness towards hierarch and welder, (which isnt really played thanks to mud), it has a much better game against shop and aggro, as well as trygon tezz. The interesting part of the deck is that the mana denial acts as a late game engine rather, while the damage components are meant for the early game; unlike other fish builds. Here, you want to duress the opponent, drop beaters and ankhs, and then pop your strip mines and drop sinkholes as a follow up. My only worry is that there arent enough duress effects in the deck.
This thread is for the discussion of mana denial, ankh based aggro control, not for sui black or dark depths builds of the like. Each deck has different strengths and weaknesses, and throwing the dark depths engine into the deck would change it dramatically and for the worse if we are to pursue the ankh/denial strategy. Maybe it'd be good as a tranformational sideboard, but I would probably prefer a hate based sideboard instead. In my opinion, i am perfectly fine with having deaths shadow as a purely late game bomb. I personally think of him as an alternate negator; one with a lesser weakness. He's basically a replacement for burn of the red builds. An advantage of death's shadow is that against shop, he comes out really cheap under spheres as well as in response to golem beats. He also allows for the light mana base of a 9 strip deck. Although he may need to be cut to a three of, and I still need to do extensive testing to support my claims.
As for your other suggestions, that new phyrexian looks really awesome and will be a staple for vintage, but im not really sure he does enough for this deck; which relies on quick damage to win, and is pretty tight for creature space. Gatekeeper of malakir is pretty bad in vintage imo; he's too expensive of a removal spell and is rarely a relevant creature; where you'll save him in hand for a tinker or he'll end up hitting a bob or hierarch went you want to hit something bigger. Plus he cant be played of my 9 colorless lands.
Thanks for trying but I can tell the difference myself. There's however a slight difference between using efficient cards and using inferior cards for a determined spot.
I don't see why running 4 Vampire Hexmage + 3 Dark depths + 1 whatever (let's say nether void or trinisphere) is making your deck worse than it is with 4 Death's Shadow and the bloodlord (who also are not supporting the mana denial plan of your deck). A 20/20 flying token is a much better finisher than a conditional 1CC guy that does nothing unless you're below the 10 life mark or a 4/4 that dies to noble hierarch, welder or goblin tokens. The Hexmage can take out planeswalkers anytime, without going the damage route and also nab the wires and smokies from stax. What you need here is Lodestone Golem, glowrider or something like that, but I think that there are no cheap black guys like those. Anyway, just my opinion, everyone's free to run inferior cards in their decks.
That's not a sound logic for a deck that runs 3 Diabolic Edict MD. Perhaps you meant Doom Blade instead. You're right in that its cost is perhaps too much for your current manabase.
The needle on a stick is redundant with null rod in that it stops Metalworker and Time vault combo, but this little guy also shuts down Noble Hierarch, the only problem with him is that he can't take Bazaar. Have you thought about BW? White gives many tools to deny the mana to your opponent, like Leonin Arbiter.
It'll be a good idea to post the sideboard you're planning to run.
blah blah blah? No need to get pretentious here, I was giving a detailed discussion of the deck, is this not a forum?
And on the subject of dark depths, these may seem to you like very similar decks at a cursory glance, but they both play out very differently. Ankh, sinkhole and 9 strip focus on shop and gush hate, while the creatures act as fast damage in conjunction with ankh burn. Playing an oops-combo that relies on a land drop and low power creature does not seem optimal in an ankh based 9 strip deck. Here, every land drop counts for either a strip effect or mana ramp. Just because the deck employs a disruption package similar to that of dark depths doesn't make them completely stuck in the same vein. I am attempting to form a hate deck from a completely neutral viewpoint. Ankh strategy may in fact be suboptimal but neither you or me can make that claim; so until testing is done, please refrain from posting sweeping archetype changes to a deck that just so happens to look like another.
As for the creature choices, they may not be the best beaters, but Im starting with these and then ill try out negator and other possibilities.
As for malakir, the huge difference between him and edict is that edict is actually playable in a 9 strip build, while malakir will always be an inconvenience to the mana base. Sure you could dark rit him out, but id rather use it for duress and 2 drop combos.
As for BW, Im not entirely confident in playing 2 colors in a 9 strip deck, as the mana base would be alot weaker an susceptible to shop and fish decks.
SB
3 pithing needle
4 doomblade
4 leyline of the void
1 terror
3 inquisition of kozilek
The side board is pretty unconventional so let me explain
pithing needle: obvious
leyline: obvious
Doomblade and terror: gives me a strong game against aggro, as we each build up damage from ankh and by outdoing them in removal numbers and mana denial of white, we can effectively over come their threats. We become the control player g2 and 3 vs fish.
Inquisition: oath and storm hate. It basically guarantees me a turn on duress for their oath, otherwise we really cant deal with a cast oath aside from diabolic edict and lucking out on an oath deck susceptible to doomblade. and heavy hand disruption and mana denial shop deal with storm quite nicely. It also comes in to replace duress vs fish.
Honestly, I feel like the Mono-R Ankh Sligh is the strongest. With a heavy strip package (GQ, Wastes and Strip) you can pretty sufficiently land destruct them, while goblin guide not only shows you their topdecks, but promotes them dropping more lands over ankhs. It may seem counter productive, but ultimately you're looking to put 20 up on the board, and what better way than to attract the idea of your opponent killing himself? Here's a list I feel is going in the right track, though could use a little more optimization:
I really like your list patat! There is phenomenal internal synergy between Goblin Guide, Ankh of Mishra, and Black Vise. This may be the only deck build I've ever seen where Goblin Guide's downside is in fact an upside and you really want your opponent to draw lands off him. A turn 1 Goblin Guide revealing a land followed by some fast mana into a Black Vise can be absolutely devastating.
I've tinkered around with your list a bit and made a couple small changes that I think help the deck's consistency with achieving it's game plan, but I think your original list is still really solid. Here's my variation...
I've yet to come up with a sideboard, but that's what my current build looks like. It's basically the same as your list but removing the 3x Fireblast for an additional 1x Ghost Quarter, 1x Lotus Petal, and 1x Mox Ruby. I found I often had trouble getting 2 Mountains in play for Fireblast, and if I ever saw more than 1 than there was no way I was going to be able to cast the second one. Fireblast is awesome no doubt, I'm just not sure it works particularly well in this deck.
I think the extra fast mana helps the deck a lot as well. Having a solid turn 1 seems really important to this deck IMHO, so in spite of the poor synergy with Null Rod I think the addition of some artifact based fast mana is really helpful to that goal. I also took out the fetch lands for just regular mountains, since Ankh of Mishra and fetch lands don't go together terribly well and deck thinning isn't a major concern here. I've never been unhappy to draw a second mountain, given that almost half of our lands are just free land destruction spells and most of our fast mana are temporary effects.
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R Goblins R
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first of all is the inclusion of ankh of mishra, and possibly zo-zu the marvel hero.
so lets just say for now:
4 Ankh of Mishra
2 Zo-Zu the Punisher
ankh effects can seriously damage gush strategies, dealing a good 2-4 damage per turn normally, and even more when gush starts working. Against workshop, ankh works well with other synergies to help race against shops, who have trouble with fast damage (or so Im told)
Next we have the 9 strip package
4 wasteland
1 strip mine
4 ghost quarter
This package works as both effective mana denial against the vulnerable shop decks and extra damage dealing via ghost quarter vs other decks.
Thats the standard package, the rest is fairly open to interpretation, and I encourage others to due their own investigations into the build.
From here I'm looking to run 4 null rod to aid in the bout against workshop mana denial as well as against tezzeret and other powered builds; which cause them to play more lands to make up for the lost mana.
4 null rod
Next we have a split decision for which direction we want to take this build. The two defining options are
ethersworn canonist
or
pyrostatic pillar
Canonist becomes a lock spell that helps cap the mana advantage of ghost quarter and possibly path to exile. Using canonist would turn the build into a more disruptive, control build, while pyrostatic pillar would turn the deck into a more damage oriented build. Both are very effective against gush in their own way, with only pyrostatic pillar being mildly useful against shop decks.
After that, I have considered including 3-4 path to exile as a means of non-life gaining removal and ankh damage; though this is pretty risky against tezzeret and combo.
3-4 path to exile
the rest of the build is pretty much open ended to either of the two interpretations.Some other cards that I've thought about include:
price of progress: large amounts of damage to help finish opponent off, though possibly counteractive with 9 strip.
magus of the moon: disrupts shop decks like a mofo, works pretty well against oath too; and pretty much every deck in general. competes with aven mindcensor for 3cc slot
Aven mindcensor: answer to tinker and tutors, as well as fetch denial; yah hes also really good
both of these 3cc guys disrupt the ghost quarter and path to exile ankh synergy so im not sure how to make the balance.
land tax: Ive heard some people say I should try it out, works well after path or strip effect, and is a source of card advtange and super deck thinning. Allows for low land count, but still kinda unnecessary. thoughts?
seal of cleansing: really diverse hate/disruption; you can supply the possibilities.
jotun grunt: good beater and grave refresher for ghost quarter and path effects, but once again; hurts the possibility for mana denial from ghost quarter so once again, not sure about finding the balance
isamaru and lions and knights: gets the damage in pretty nice as they are never countered and can add up; could work nicely against racing stax, but idunno
lightning bolt, chain lighting: id probably run at least 4 bolt, not sure if chain lighting should go in for more of a burn package
thorn of amethyst: possibly decent mana denial which allows fast creatures to race. But kinda jank.
simian spirit guide: auto include
meekstone: answer to tinker and big beaters, while u can go the weenie route; kinda jank and more of a sideboard thing
swords to plowshare: if path is too risky, but works against strategy so probably not
shattering spree/smash to smithereens: good against tezzeret and shop, smash helps burn strategy.
red elemental blast: counterspells of deck, menendian main decked em, so why not.
crucible of worlds: runs into waste locks alot quicker than just 5 strip, so sounds cool. also good vs shop
Pillage: possible mana denial follow up and arti hate.
mana tithe: possible counter, but once again, Im not sure if this build will become a strict mana denial build or will allow the opponent to build up a certain degree of mana via ghost quarter and path.
an interesting possible package?:
4 mana tithe
4 pyroblast
4 orims chant
goblin guide: fast beater for burn build, lets us see whats coming, and we'll probably want them to have lands.
lotus/moxen:obvious inclusion
shrapnel blast: sack either ankh, rod, or possibly thorn or artifact lands. Thats one quarter of their freekin life; fun stuffumz.
leonin arbiter: if the mana denial route is effective enough then maybe this to take aven slot and allow for magus in 3cc slot.
tunnel ignus: possiblely gruesome if combined with an aggressive package of path and ghost quarter effects. Are there any other decent cards with ghost quarter effects?
Possible package:
3 zozu the pro wrestler
4 tunnel ignus?
4 pyrostatic pillar
4 shrap blast
4 price of progress
sounds neat...
chimeric mass: possible bomb or weenie, also works with shrap blast
anyway I think thats everything, I just want to clarify some questions like.
Is path to exile too risky?
Are there other playable spells that have path to exile and ghost quarter land effects?
If your going to post a topic for discussion, dont send people to another site, just copy and paste the information like I just did - Urweak
i might try goign mono red here.
2 zozu
4 Simian spirit Guide
4 magus of the moon
4 ankh
4 null rod
4 cotv
4 ghost quarters
4 wasteland
would all make for a nice mana denial pakage
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Land is the big one. Shaman doesnt let you blow up creatures. I think its as good, if not better, then a strip lock (Strip Mine+Crucible of Worlds).
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UBSquee's Shapeshifting PetBU
BW Multiplayer Control WB
RG Changeling GR
UR Mana FlareRU
UMerfolkU
B MBMC B
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Land
4 waste
4 ghost quarter
1 strip
4 bloodstained mire
1 verdant catacomb
5 swamp
Creatures
4 dark confidant
4 death's shadow
4 arrogant bloodlord
other
4 thoughtseize
4 sinkhole
4 dark ritual
4 ankh
4 duress
4 null rod
3 diabolic edict
2 demonic, vamp tutor
1 crucible of worlds
1 black lotus
I havent tested this out yet, but from theory alone, the deck has a strong early game with 8 duress effects, as well as lotus/dark ritual for duress/two drop combos. Hopefully the predominately land based mana denial engine will prove disruptive enough against the field in general; while ankh sligh forces out heavy damage as a result. Ankh, in combination with confidant, thoughtseize, and fetches help bring out a reasonably large death's shadow; though i have zero experience in playing the guy and seeing how big he can usually be. This means that we must drop an ankh as soon as possible to a)deal out the most relevant damage to an early game opponent and b)setting the first crucial set of damage to yourself in order to bring out the shadow. I added a single crucible as a tutorable option for a strip lock as well as aid in the death's shadow pump. The deck is 61 cards, and Im fine with that; as cutting down on edicts or beaters is unacceptable, for every last card count is needed to maintain relevance against the format. Arrogant bloodlord is an alternative option to negator, that while it has a weakness towards hierarch and welder, (which isnt really played thanks to mud), it has a much better game against shop and aggro, as well as trygon tezz. The interesting part of the deck is that the mana denial acts as a late game engine rather, while the damage components are meant for the early game; unlike other fish builds. Here, you want to duress the opponent, drop beaters and ankhs, and then pop your strip mines and drop sinkholes as a follow up. My only worry is that there arent enough duress effects in the deck.
As for your other suggestions, that new phyrexian looks really awesome and will be a staple for vintage, but im not really sure he does enough for this deck; which relies on quick damage to win, and is pretty tight for creature space. Gatekeeper of malakir is pretty bad in vintage imo; he's too expensive of a removal spell and is rarely a relevant creature; where you'll save him in hand for a tinker or he'll end up hitting a bob or hierarch went you want to hit something bigger. Plus he cant be played of my 9 colorless lands.
blah blah blah? No need to get pretentious here, I was giving a detailed discussion of the deck, is this not a forum?
And on the subject of dark depths, these may seem to you like very similar decks at a cursory glance, but they both play out very differently. Ankh, sinkhole and 9 strip focus on shop and gush hate, while the creatures act as fast damage in conjunction with ankh burn. Playing an oops-combo that relies on a land drop and low power creature does not seem optimal in an ankh based 9 strip deck. Here, every land drop counts for either a strip effect or mana ramp. Just because the deck employs a disruption package similar to that of dark depths doesn't make them completely stuck in the same vein. I am attempting to form a hate deck from a completely neutral viewpoint. Ankh strategy may in fact be suboptimal but neither you or me can make that claim; so until testing is done, please refrain from posting sweeping archetype changes to a deck that just so happens to look like another.
As for the creature choices, they may not be the best beaters, but Im starting with these and then ill try out negator and other possibilities.
As for malakir, the huge difference between him and edict is that edict is actually playable in a 9 strip build, while malakir will always be an inconvenience to the mana base. Sure you could dark rit him out, but id rather use it for duress and 2 drop combos.
As for BW, Im not entirely confident in playing 2 colors in a 9 strip deck, as the mana base would be alot weaker an susceptible to shop and fish decks.
SB
3 pithing needle
4 doomblade
4 leyline of the void
1 terror
3 inquisition of kozilek
The side board is pretty unconventional so let me explain
pithing needle: obvious
leyline: obvious
Doomblade and terror: gives me a strong game against aggro, as we each build up damage from ankh and by outdoing them in removal numbers and mana denial of white, we can effectively over come their threats. We become the control player g2 and 3 vs fish.
Inquisition: oath and storm hate. It basically guarantees me a turn on duress for their oath, otherwise we really cant deal with a cast oath aside from diabolic edict and lucking out on an oath deck susceptible to doomblade. and heavy hand disruption and mana denial shop deal with storm quite nicely. It also comes in to replace duress vs fish.
Use card tags. Also please read this http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/announcement.php?f=22&a=457 -Urweak
4x Arid Mesa
2x Scalding Tarn
4x Wasteland
3x Ghost Quarter
1x Strip Mine
4x Black Vise
3x Null Rod
1x Black Lotus
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Goblin Guide
4x Gorilla Shaman
4x Jackal Pup
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
1x Wheel of Fortune
I've tinkered around with your list a bit and made a couple small changes that I think help the deck's consistency with achieving it's game plan, but I think your original list is still really solid. Here's my variation...
4 Goblin Guide
4 Jackal Pup
4 Gorilla Shaman
4 Simian Spirit Guide
[9 Spells]
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
1 Wheel of Fortune
4 Black Vise
4 Ankh of Mishra
3 Null Rod
[24 Mana]
12 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Strip Mine
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus
I've yet to come up with a sideboard, but that's what my current build looks like. It's basically the same as your list but removing the 3x Fireblast for an additional 1x Ghost Quarter, 1x Lotus Petal, and 1x Mox Ruby. I found I often had trouble getting 2 Mountains in play for Fireblast, and if I ever saw more than 1 than there was no way I was going to be able to cast the second one. Fireblast is awesome no doubt, I'm just not sure it works particularly well in this deck.
I think the extra fast mana helps the deck a lot as well. Having a solid turn 1 seems really important to this deck IMHO, so in spite of the poor synergy with Null Rod I think the addition of some artifact based fast mana is really helpful to that goal. I also took out the fetch lands for just regular mountains, since Ankh of Mishra and fetch lands don't go together terribly well and deck thinning isn't a major concern here. I've never been unhappy to draw a second mountain, given that almost half of our lands are just free land destruction spells and most of our fast mana are temporary effects.