I finally finished my build after reading up on a lot of lists. This is the list that I have decided to test. I will post back after I get more results, but so far, I have been happy with how it has been handling. I am going to try to make the power tournament in the area in the next couple of weeks, and plan on playing something close to this:
Looks like a solid build bud, and please do share the results of boarding in the Thada Adel, Acquisitor with us in regards to the meta VS.
Good luck with the deck!
S.M.
I finally finished my build after reading up on a lot of lists. This is the list that I have decided to test. I will post back after I get more results, but so far, I have been happy with how it has been handling. I am going to try to make the power tournament in the area in the next couple of weeks, and plan on playing something close to this:
Hey, best of luck at your tournament quicksilver. Just some friendly advice: with no basic forest, you want Flooded Strand, Polluted Delta or Scalding Tarn rather than Windswept Heath if you have them. They can both grab all of your duals, but the ones I mentioned get your basic Island as well. In fact if you're at all worried about seeing Pithing Needle or Extirpate, you can just run a split of the blue fetches (2-2-1-1) as they're all the same in this build.
Hey, best of luck at your tournament quicksilver. Just some friendly advice: with no basic forest, you want Flooded Strand, Polluted Delta or Scalding Tarn rather than Windswept Heath if you have them. They can both grab all of your duals, but the ones I mentioned get your basic Island as well. In fact if you're at all worried about seeing Pithing Needle or Extirpate, you can just run a split of the blue fetches (2-2-1-1) as they're all the same in this build.
That's one of the main reasons mages have gone to Windswept heath Doom buddy, they are less likely to be named. Taking that in mind the Heaths can go for all the stated duals Doom said too.....so on this matter it's a toss up for which fetch you feel comfortable with. I myself, have shifted to Heath for that sole reason.
Either choice I don't think it'll have an effect on your overall game.
Oh I forget to mention I love the fact you have Trygons Main! Reminds me of the good ol'days with Noble`Goyf....wait the deck isn't that old....hmm might be a impact going back to those seeing I bring the damn things in more then anyother board card I have,
Good luck at the event!
S.M.
But that doesn't make any sense. Right now he has only 2 different fetches, (2 of which can't even fetch out his basic), whereas otherwise he could have 4 different fetches (all of which would be able to get his basic). The odds of naming the correct fetch are drastically reduced with the suggestion that I made. Granted there would be slightly better odds of them missing game 1 when using Heaths, but no one in their right mind plays maindeck Needles anyway.
I have the Tarns, and can see what your argument is, Doomsday.
I have been toying with the fact of playing a singleton forest as well, but this has been fine so far. After all, if they play magus of the moon/blood moon I can not fetch it up anyway. It's pretty much there to be able to cast Daze under weird circumstances (as well as trying to be a bit more resilient early game against wasteland locks).
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Hmm good point bud....yeah I suppose you're correct...shoot I might as well just run a bunch of 1 of's too!
Thanks Doom....man I sometimes forget we have all the new fectches lol...you wait years to get them, and then when you do....it's like oh wait I forgot lol.
S.M.
But that doesn't make any sense. Right now he has only 2 different fetches, (2 of which can't even fetch out his basic), whereas otherwise he could have 4 different fetches (all of which would be able to get his basic). The odds of naming the correct fetch are drastically reduced with the suggestion that I made. Granted there would be slightly better odds of them missing game 1 when using Heaths, but no one in their right mind plays maindeck Needles anyway.
Add a basic forest and max out on Misty Rainforest, especially with Lodestone Golem entering the format. You want to be able to hit those basics. Honestly, no one is going to Pithing Needle your fetches. I promise.
Add a basic forest and max out on Misty Rainforest, especially with Lodestone Golem entering the format. You want to be able to hit those basics. Honestly, no one is going to Pithing Needle your fetches. I promise.
Thanks, Voltron. I was on the fence as to whether or not I should replace a Heath with a basic Forest, and I think that is what I am going to do.
5 Fetches Shouldn't be too different from 6, and I feel comfortable going 4 misty 1 Heath.
So long as Hierarch hits the table, I don't have to worry about producing white so much.
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Or just run a bunck of 1 of's with regards to the fetches....I have noticed that the current builds are opting for no basic lands...kind of risky, but it's working of late.
S.M.
Given Lodestone Golem (and the Wastelands that come with him), I definitely think you want a basic Island and basic Forest, and you want to maximize your chance of finding them... so I strongly advise 4x Misty Rainforest. This is especially true if you're playing Daze and/or Spell Pierce.
Given Lodestone Golem (and the Wastelands that come with him), I definitely think you want a basic Island and basic Forest, and you want to maximize your chance of finding them... so I strongly advise 4x Misty Rainforest. This is especially true if you're playing Daze and/or Spell Pierce.
This.
Out goes a Heath, in comes a Forest. I can't find a way to justify going to 3 wasteland or cutting a dual.
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I run at least 1 Island, and I don't believe a forest is key now just because of the Golem. If stax is a problem just side in War's Wage or E.F.
5 fetches is all you will probably need, but that current deck I posted was a bit risky as for going all out with them.
Note I don't even feel stax is a threat VS this matchup, but that's just my opinion.
Now to the needle comment....I have won games by using them as threats against Fetches, so again that was from one members opinion {bold promise, so lets hope they don't face a seasoned mage when they take your word good member...last I checked Needles mainly hit wastelands and fetches?!} and I'm just sharing mine. If I knew someone was running 4 Misty's and I have Needles in Sboard, I would without a doubt name them, but games are won with many factors....and if you can't fetch, then you're not wasting...a wise mage told me that once.
Who knew you can't play this game without lands ;)?...unless you're a dredge/CharBelch player that's!
S.M.
I run at least 1 Island, and I don't believe a forest is key now just because of the Golem. If stax is a problem just side in War's Wage or E.F.
5 fetches is all you will probably need, but that current deck I posted was a bit risky as for going all out with them.
Note I don't even feel stax is a threat VS this matchup, but that's just my opinion.
Now to the needle comment....I have won games by using them as threats against Fetches, so again that was from one members opinion {bold promise, so lets hope they don't face a seasoned mage when they take your word good member...last I checked Needles mainly hit wastelands and fetches?!} and I'm just sharing mine. If I knew someone was running 4 Misty's and I have Needles in Sboard, I would without a doubt name them, but games are won with many factors....and if you can't fetch, then you're not wasting...a wise mage told me that once.
Who knew you can't play this game without lands ;)?...unless you're a dredge/CharBelch player that's!
S.M.
Ask yourself: What deck is going to sideboard in Pithing Needle against Noble Fish / Selkie?
The forest is pretty relevant, because you really want to be able to resolve Trygon and Pridemage against Shops.
Also, the match-up is significantly harder now that Lodestone Golem exists. The nice thing about Stax decks before is they didn't have a clock. That isn't always going to be true now that Lodestone is in the format. Regardless, my point is that Lodestone Golem almost guarantees that Workshop decks are going to be popular for a while. You gain very little by not running a Forest, and risk a lot. Ditto by choosing not to run max Misty Rainforest.
You're hedging your bet on a very unlikely corner case (someone bringing in Pithing Needles against a deck where they aren't very relevant, and choosing to name Misty Rainforest instead of more relevant targets like Wasteland or Pridemage) instead of a very relevant case (knowing that Shops are going to gain as a % of the meta and preparing for that match-up).
No punt at you, but you do come off pretty narrow minded,
Ask yourself: What deck is going to sideboard in Pithing Needle against Noble Fish / Selkie?
Who wouldn't seeing the deck supports some of the most crazy cards in the game with active abilities? Now I love the back and forth we're having...quite fun, but you almost have no merit when you say statements that are pretty darn misleading good member.
Who would side them in...mages that want to win!
Pridemage {outright wins games}
Wasteland {a heart rip against the meta}
Fetchlands {right...we can let this go because "You haven't seen it"}
For fun,
Children of Korlis...now you just have to take back your statement if you're ant player...but we know you won't;)
Jitte Last I heard that EQ could win the game {but we can go on record and say...a jitte....that card is no big deal}
rest case or shall we keep the tango going? Now I usually will do this a couple of times with a member to just find a solid ground...but don't worry I'm almost done with my replies. I know others read my post and gone on to pretty good success. In this case it's almost pointless if you're not going to see the ENTIRE pic that's placed before you.
And your last statment is a total counter, seeing who would bring them in?...you just named the cards in order..thanks.
S.M.
Ask yourself: What deck is going to sideboard in Pithing Needle against Noble Fish / Selkie?
The forest is pretty relevant, because you really want to be able to resolve Trygon and Pridemage against Shops.
Also, the match-up is significantly harder now that Lodestone Golem exists. The nice thing about Stax decks before is they didn't have a clock. That isn't always going to be true now that Lodestone is in the format. Regardless, my point is that Lodestone Golem almost guarantees that Workshop decks are going to be popular for a while. You gain very little by not running a Forest, and risk a lot. Ditto by choosing not to run max Misty Rainforest.
You're hedging your bet on a very unlikely corner case (someone bringing in Pithing Needles against a deck where they aren't very relevant, and choosing to name Misty Rainforest instead of more relevant targets like Wasteland or Pridemage) instead of a very relevant case (knowing that Shops are going to gain as a % of the meta and preparing for that match-up).
No punt at you, but you do come off pretty narrow minded,
Who wouldn't seeing the deck supports some of the most crazy cards in the game with active abilities? Now I love the back and forth we're having...quite fun, but you almost have no merit when you say statements that are pretty darn misleading good member.
Who would side them in...mages that want to win!
Pridemage {outright wins games}
Wasteland {a heart rip against the meta}
Fetchlands {right...we can let this go because "You haven't seen it"}
For fun,
Children of Korlis...now you just have to take back your statement if you're ant player...but we know you won't;)
Jitte Last I heard that EQ could win the game {but we can go on record and say...a jitte....that card is no big deal}
rest case or shall we keep the tango going? Now I usually will do this a couple of times with a member to just find a solid ground...but don't worry I'm almost done with my replies. I know others read my post and gone on to pretty good success. In this case it's almost pointless if you're not going to see the ENTIRE pic that's placed before you.
S.M.
I'm really struggling to figure out what your deal is, but putting that aside, you quoted me and then completely failed to answer the question.
What deck, exactly, is going to bring in Pithing Needle against Noble Fish?
In fact, which Vintage deck that actually sees play is even running Pithing Needle outside of Dredge (which obviously is not going to name Misty Rainforest if they decide to bring in Needles against Fish)? Some Shop builds do, but they're not bringing Needle in against Fish, they're bringing in REBs for Trygon Predator and Tabernacle for creature control. I've advocated running two Needles in my Oath sideboard b/c it combats Greater Gargadon (and other random anti-Oath cards like Goblin Bombardment and Spawning Pit), and I have mentioned the possibility of bringing it in as a one-of against Fish specifically for Quasali Pridemage... not Misty Rainforest.
I understand there are cards that Needle is, in theory, good against. I'm saying that in real-world tournament Vintage, there are few decks running Needle, fewer still that would bring it in against Fish, and from there, basically no deck that wants to use Needle against Misty Rainforest.
It isn't just that I never see people running out Needle against fetches - which I don't - its also the fact that logic will explain why this is an unlikely corner case that it is wise to ignore when debating the merits of including a Forest and 4 Misty Rainforest or not, one which you are attempting to sidestep completely.
I'm really struggling to figure out what your deal is, but putting that aside, you quoted me and then completely failed to answer the question.
What deck, exactly, is going to bring in Pithing Needle against Noble Fish?
I do feel that SM has a valid point. Pithing Needle has merit in the (real) vintage field. Pithing Needle can shut down Qasali Pridemage (as you said), Wastelands, Children of Korlis, and Jitte (attached to Selkie, can create some serious card advantage). Pithing Needle doesn't necessarily need to be awesome against just Fish, but it can do amazing vs other meta decks (Dredge/TPS/Tez). Despite, yes, it is bounceable (Chain of Vapor), it does impede upon the possibility of an opponent winning.
With that, I'd say that you both have valid points, but I do feel that SM has merit, and I know him personally. He has been to his share of tournaments and knows what he's talking about too.
With that said, I do have a question. It's hard to believe that the East Coast meta has only a small % of Fish players considering that this deck has been taking Top 3s consistently, and that is a fact.
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Don't get me wrong, playing Dredge is one of my guilty pleasures, along with eating chunky monkey ice cream and watching my Gilmore Girls DVDs in my underpants, but it's pretty much, in my opinion, the very last deck that I'd want anyone to start a career in Vintage with.
I do feel that SM has a valid point. Pithing Needle has merit in the (real) vintage field. Pithing Needle can shut down Qasali Pridemage (as you said), Wastelands, Children of Korlis, and Jitte (attached to Selkie, can create some serious card advantage). Pithing Needle doesn't necessarily need to be awesome against just Fish, but it can do amazing vs other meta decks (Dredge/TPS/Tez). Despite, yes, it is bounceable (Chain of Vapor), it does impede upon the possibility of an opponent winning.
With that, I'd say that you both have valid points, but I do feel that SM has merit, and I know him personally. He has been to his share of tournaments and knows what he's talking about too.
With that said, I do have a question. It's hard to believe that the East Coast meta has only a small % of Fish players considering that this deck has been taking Top 3s consistently, and that is a fact.
Is it really a fact? Trust me, I actually live in the Philly Burbs and hit almost every tournament that happens in our area. And write about them, at Starcitygames.com.
Or, don't trust me and instead look at the tournament results...
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=39581.0
This event had 64 players. I have all of the decklists in a pile b/c I'm friends with the TO. Of these 64 players, there were 3 Fish decks. All were BUG Fish. None made top 8.
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=39315.0
This event had 68 players. 7 played Fish, 3 played Noble Fish. None made top 8. I actually analyzed this metagame over the course of two articles for Starcity Games, and Fish (and Null Rod strategies in general, including Beats) had a completely miserable showing for whatever reason.
Clearly, Fish is not performing well in the Northeast, as I said. It has historically done better in the New England metagame, but it does very poorly in the mid-Atlantic.
Going outside the Northeast, how about the Meandeck Open?
41 Players. No metagame breakdown, but no Fish in the Top 8.
I never said Pithing Needle doesn't have merit in Vintage. Of course it does.
I'm asking you to specifically name for me the decks that actually exist in modern Vintage that are packing Pithing Needle and are going to bring it in against Fish and run it out turn one on Misty Rainforest. I'm trying to explain that such a deck doesn't exist. Handicapping your own deck for a boogeyman that isn't real is counterproductive. Part of the reason why I'm even posting on MTGS is I want to clear up some misconceptions about Vintage outside of conversation on TMD, where I post extensively.
One of those misconceptions, clearly, is this idea that people are out there using Needle to combat fetchlands, leading to Fish decks that aren't optimally built and should have a Forest and 4x Misty Rainforest.
Of course there are plenty of Needle targets in Fish. I never said there weren't. The fact that there are a handful of relevant targets outside of fetchlands even more emphatically proves my point that people aren't going to go after fetchlands with Needle. I'm not sure how much more clearly I can prove that point.
I should also add that I do honestly take offense at the suggestion that I would intentionally mislead someone, or the suggestion that I have a narrow understanding of the format, or that I'm presenting incorrect metagame information regarding my home metagame, etc. As a Magic writer, I actually have considerably more burden on me to provide accurate information and suggestions grounded in fact than the average forum poster.
Is it really a fact? Trust me, I actually live in the Philly Burbs and hit almost every tournament that happens in our area. And write about them, at Starcitygames.com.
Or, don't trust me and instead look at the tournament results...
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=39581.0
This event had 64 players. I have all of the decklists in a pile b/c I'm friends with the TO. Of these 64 players, there were 3 Fish decks. All were BUG Fish. None made top 8.
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=39315.0
This event had 68 players. 7 played Fish, 3 played Noble Fish. None made top 8. I actually analyzed this metagame over the course of two articles for Starcity Games, and Fish (and Null Rod strategies in general, including Beats) had a completely miserable showing for whatever reason.
Clearly, Fish is not performing well in the Northeast, as I said. It has historically done better in the New England metagame, but it does very poorly in the mid-Atlantic.
Going outside the Northeast, how about the Meandeck Open?
41 Players. No metagame breakdown, but no Fish in the Top 8.
I never disagreed that Fish was not widely a present archetype in the East Coast meta, but I was more so expressing as to why it wasn't? Now with respect to the validity of your statement suggesting that Fish is not popular in the East Coast, yes, that's true (I suppose for now). However, it is very much so a top deck (maybe not here, not yet, but in other areas around the world [outside of the US North East]).
I'm asking you to specifically name for me the decks that actually exist in modern Vintage that are packing Pithing Needle and are going to bring it in against Fish and run it out turn one on Misty Rainforest. I'm trying to explain that such a deck doesn't exist. Handicapping your own deck for a boogeyman that isn't real is counterproductive. Part of the reason why I'm even posting on MTGS is I want to clear up some misconceptions about Vintage outside of conversation on TMD, where I post extensively.
One of those misconceptions, clearly, is this idea that people are out there using Needle to combat fetchlands, leading to Fish decks that aren't optimally built and should have a Forest and 4x Misty Rainforest.
Of course there are plenty of Needle targets in Fish. I never said there weren't. The fact that there are a handful of relevant targets outside of fetchlands even more emphatically proves my point that people aren't going to go after fetchlands with Needle. I'm not sure how much more clearly I can prove that point.
I nor SM never suggested that the main reason for bringing in the Pithing Needles was attack the fetchlands. If anything, it is an alternative target, and I believe it is justifiable in certain situations to name a fetchland such as Misty Rainforest. I, for one, feel that you are speaking for the entire vintage community by suggesting that every player plays a singleton of every fetchland that uses blue for example. If that's the case, then that's a very biased opinion.
Addressing the issue with Pithing Needles not being brought in the modern vintage scene, that is also very biased. All the tournament reports you are showing (I understand that you are using to point out your argument that Fish is not a very popular deck in the East Coast) support your argument that, yes, Fish is a very unpopular deck in the East Coast. But why? And I still hold on the idea that Fish is a Top 3 contender no matter how you look at it. I am taking into account global vintage reports, not just a small section of the United States. For example,
All of these reports do show that players, from around the world, are playing Fish and taking Top 8s consistently. These are the most up-to-date records and do not show otherwise. These reports also illustrate that Pithing Needles are still used in the modern vintage scene (maybe not particularly against Fish, but who really knows what Player A is thinking when he comes to a tournament? Maybe he's just had a badcase of Fish-phobia and wants to make sure they do not blow up his artifacts or take away his win because of Children of Korlis or beat him down with a Jitte and draw massive amounts of cards. The possibilities are endless. There is no definitive one answer) Nevertheless, my main question was to why this deck was not seeing play in the East Coast taking into account its massive success elsewhere.
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Don't get me wrong, playing Dredge is one of my guilty pleasures, along with eating chunky monkey ice cream and watching my Gilmore Girls DVDs in my underpants, but it's pretty much, in my opinion, the very last deck that I'd want anyone to start a career in Vintage with.
Firstly, you linked to two of the top 8s that I already linked to, including one top 8 THAT WAS ME! Cmon. The other one, the Meandeck Open, has Pithing Needles played mostly by Oath (again, based on one of my Oath decks) that are used for exactly the reasons I stated above, NOT to target fetchlands.
As far as Harrisburg, I wrote an article stating that I thought that Noble Fish was underrepresented in the US meta and then made top 4 in NY to back up that claim. The deck played in Harrisburg was directly based on my articles on Fish. How do I know this? I was at the tournament and talked to the guy.
Secondly, the rest of the links you provided are for tournaments outside of the United States. There, you're talking about non-Proxy tournaments that are ALWAYS loaded with Fish decks. Completely different case than the US, so there's not even a reason to have that conversation.
Pithing Needle's main target in every US list that you linked to is BAZAAR OF BAGHDAD.
You're both completely missing the point.
I didn't say Needle isn't played.
I didn't say that Fish doesn't have Needle targets.
I didn't say that Fish doesn't do well, globally.
I said that Fish doesn't do well in the Northeast. It doesn't. I provided links to prove it.
I said that Fish has Needle targets more relevant than Fetchlands, which you BOTH agree with.
I said that there is no deck running Needles that is going to side them in against Fish AND name Misty Rainforest.
Do you understand that referencing Jitte as relevant just further proves that no one is naming "Misty Rainforest" with Pithing Needle?
You can dump all the links you want and not prove anything. I wish I had a better way to explain this.
Further, you need to reread what you wrote. You said, "It's hard to believe that the East Coast meta has only a small % of Fish players considering that this deck has been taking Top 3s consistently, and that is a fact. "
You didn't say, "I think Fish is one of the top 3 decks". You said, Fish is consistently taking top 3s. It isn't. Its barely cracking the top 8 in the US. If you want to change the metric on which we're arguing mid-conversation, then we're not going to get anywhere.
I know this post is falling on deaf ears and I'm going to get some more trolling responses, but such is life on the internet.
SM, are we even speaking the same language? How many of those links are for tournaments on the East Coast? My response was specifically to refute this quote:
"It's hard to believe that the East Coast meta has only a small % of Fish players considering that this deck has been taking Top 3s consistently, and that is a fact."
And you're throwing a dozen top 8s from Europe, CA, and the rest of the world out there... what does that have to do with anything?
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1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
3 Null Rod
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Brainstorm
1 Rebuild
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
2 Swords to Plowshares
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Cold-Eyed Selkie
3 Meddling Mage
2 Trygon Predator
2 Tarmogoyf
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Windswept Heath
1 Island
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Tarmogoyf
2 Thada Adel, Acquisitor
2 Energy Flux
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Wheel of Sun and Moon
3 Children of Korlis
Type I:
:symu::symb::symr: Remora Control
Type 1.5
:symw::symu::symg: NO CounterTop
Type II:
Standard is AIDS
Good luck with the deck!
S.M.
Hey, best of luck at your tournament quicksilver. Just some friendly advice: with no basic forest, you want Flooded Strand, Polluted Delta or Scalding Tarn rather than Windswept Heath if you have them. They can both grab all of your duals, but the ones I mentioned get your basic Island as well. In fact if you're at all worried about seeing Pithing Needle or Extirpate, you can just run a split of the blue fetches (2-2-1-1) as they're all the same in this build.
Trade Thread
Modern
RWGBurnGWR
GUInfectUG
GRTronRG
UWGifts TronWU
URBGrixis DelverBRU
RGWZooWGR
Legacy
BUWTinFinsWUB
UROmniTellRU
BURTESRUB
GElves!G
GBPSIBG
RGBelcherGR
UBRGWDredgeWGRBU
UBAffinityBU
RBurnR
Vintage
UBGDoomsdayGBU
0Martello Shops0
GElves!G
UBTPSBU
UBelcherU
0Dredge0
That's one of the main reasons mages have gone to Windswept heath Doom buddy, they are less likely to be named. Taking that in mind the Heaths can go for all the stated duals Doom said too.....so on this matter it's a toss up for which fetch you feel comfortable with. I myself, have shifted to Heath for that sole reason.
Either choice I don't think it'll have an effect on your overall game.
Oh I forget to mention I love the fact you have Trygons Main! Reminds me of the good ol'days with Noble`Goyf....wait the deck isn't that old....hmm might be a impact going back to those seeing I bring the damn things in more then anyother board card I have,
Good luck at the event!
S.M.
Trade Thread
Modern
RWGBurnGWR
GUInfectUG
GRTronRG
UWGifts TronWU
URBGrixis DelverBRU
RGWZooWGR
Legacy
BUWTinFinsWUB
UROmniTellRU
BURTESRUB
GElves!G
GBPSIBG
RGBelcherGR
UBRGWDredgeWGRBU
UBAffinityBU
RBurnR
Vintage
UBGDoomsdayGBU
0Martello Shops0
GElves!G
UBTPSBU
UBelcherU
0Dredge0
I have been toying with the fact of playing a singleton forest as well, but this has been fine so far. After all, if they play magus of the moon/blood moon I can not fetch it up anyway. It's pretty much there to be able to cast Daze under weird circumstances (as well as trying to be a bit more resilient early game against wasteland locks).
Type I:
:symu::symb::symr: Remora Control
Type 1.5
:symw::symu::symg: NO CounterTop
Type II:
Standard is AIDS
Thanks Doom....man I sometimes forget we have all the new fectches lol...you wait years to get them, and then when you do....it's like oh wait I forgot lol.
S.M.
Thanks, Voltron. I was on the fence as to whether or not I should replace a Heath with a basic Forest, and I think that is what I am going to do.
5 Fetches Shouldn't be too different from 6, and I feel comfortable going 4 misty 1 Heath.
So long as Hierarch hits the table, I don't have to worry about producing white so much.
Type I:
:symu::symb::symr: Remora Control
Type 1.5
:symw::symu::symg: NO CounterTop
Type II:
Standard is AIDS
Trade Thread
Modern
RWGBurnGWR
GUInfectUG
GRTronRG
UWGifts TronWU
URBGrixis DelverBRU
RGWZooWGR
Legacy
BUWTinFinsWUB
UROmniTellRU
BURTESRUB
GElves!G
GBPSIBG
RGBelcherGR
UBRGWDredgeWGRBU
UBAffinityBU
RBurnR
Vintage
UBGDoomsdayGBU
0Martello Shops0
GElves!G
UBTPSBU
UBelcherU
0Dredge0
S.M.
This.
Out goes a Heath, in comes a Forest. I can't find a way to justify going to 3 wasteland or cutting a dual.
Type I:
:symu::symb::symr: Remora Control
Type 1.5
:symw::symu::symg: NO CounterTop
Type II:
Standard is AIDS
Thanks Darth Monkey
5 fetches is all you will probably need, but that current deck I posted was a bit risky as for going all out with them.
Note I don't even feel stax is a threat VS this matchup, but that's just my opinion.
Now to the needle comment....I have won games by using them as threats against Fetches, so again that was from one members opinion {bold promise, so lets hope they don't face a seasoned mage when they take your word good member...last I checked Needles mainly hit wastelands and fetches?!} and I'm just sharing mine. If I knew someone was running 4 Misty's and I have Needles in Sboard, I would without a doubt name them, but games are won with many factors....and if you can't fetch, then you're not wasting...a wise mage told me that once.
Who knew you can't play this game without lands ;)?...unless you're a dredge/CharBelch player that's!
S.M.
Ask yourself: What deck is going to sideboard in Pithing Needle against Noble Fish / Selkie?
The forest is pretty relevant, because you really want to be able to resolve Trygon and Pridemage against Shops.
Also, the match-up is significantly harder now that Lodestone Golem exists. The nice thing about Stax decks before is they didn't have a clock. That isn't always going to be true now that Lodestone is in the format. Regardless, my point is that Lodestone Golem almost guarantees that Workshop decks are going to be popular for a while. You gain very little by not running a Forest, and risk a lot. Ditto by choosing not to run max Misty Rainforest.
You're hedging your bet on a very unlikely corner case (someone bringing in Pithing Needles against a deck where they aren't very relevant, and choosing to name Misty Rainforest instead of more relevant targets like Wasteland or Pridemage) instead of a very relevant case (knowing that Shops are going to gain as a % of the meta and preparing for that match-up).
Who wouldn't seeing the deck supports some of the most crazy cards in the game with active abilities? Now I love the back and forth we're having...quite fun, but you almost have no merit when you say statements that are pretty darn misleading good member.
Who would side them in...mages that want to win!
Pridemage {outright wins games}
Wasteland {a heart rip against the meta}
Fetchlands {right...we can let this go because "You haven't seen it"}
For fun,
Children of Korlis...now you just have to take back your statement if you're ant player...but we know you won't;)
Jitte Last I heard that EQ could win the game {but we can go on record and say...a jitte....that card is no big deal}
rest case or shall we keep the tango going? Now I usually will do this a couple of times with a member to just find a solid ground...but don't worry I'm almost done with my replies. I know others read my post and gone on to pretty good success. In this case it's almost pointless if you're not going to see the ENTIRE pic that's placed before you.
And your last statment is a total counter, seeing who would bring them in?...you just named the cards in order..thanks.
S.M.
I'm really struggling to figure out what your deal is, but putting that aside, you quoted me and then completely failed to answer the question.
What deck, exactly, is going to bring in Pithing Needle against Noble Fish?
In fact, which Vintage deck that actually sees play is even running Pithing Needle outside of Dredge (which obviously is not going to name Misty Rainforest if they decide to bring in Needles against Fish)? Some Shop builds do, but they're not bringing Needle in against Fish, they're bringing in REBs for Trygon Predator and Tabernacle for creature control. I've advocated running two Needles in my Oath sideboard b/c it combats Greater Gargadon (and other random anti-Oath cards like Goblin Bombardment and Spawning Pit), and I have mentioned the possibility of bringing it in as a one-of against Fish specifically for Quasali Pridemage... not Misty Rainforest.
I understand there are cards that Needle is, in theory, good against. I'm saying that in real-world tournament Vintage, there are few decks running Needle, fewer still that would bring it in against Fish, and from there, basically no deck that wants to use Needle against Misty Rainforest.
It isn't just that I never see people running out Needle against fetches - which I don't - its also the fact that logic will explain why this is an unlikely corner case that it is wise to ignore when debating the merits of including a Forest and 4 Misty Rainforest or not, one which you are attempting to sidestep completely.
I do feel that SM has a valid point. Pithing Needle has merit in the (real) vintage field. Pithing Needle can shut down Qasali Pridemage (as you said), Wastelands, Children of Korlis, and Jitte (attached to Selkie, can create some serious card advantage). Pithing Needle doesn't necessarily need to be awesome against just Fish, but it can do amazing vs other meta decks (Dredge/TPS/Tez). Despite, yes, it is bounceable (Chain of Vapor), it does impede upon the possibility of an opponent winning.
With that, I'd say that you both have valid points, but I do feel that SM has merit, and I know him personally. He has been to his share of tournaments and knows what he's talking about too.
With that said, I do have a question. It's hard to believe that the East Coast meta has only a small % of Fish players considering that this deck has been taking Top 3s consistently, and that is a fact.
My Trade Thread
Is it really a fact? Trust me, I actually live in the Philly Burbs and hit almost every tournament that happens in our area. And write about them, at Starcitygames.com.
Or, don't trust me and instead look at the tournament results...
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=39710.0
This event had 48 players and 4 ran Fish, including me; I was the only Fish player in the top 8. I lost in the semis.
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=39581.0
This event had 64 players. I have all of the decklists in a pile b/c I'm friends with the TO. Of these 64 players, there were 3 Fish decks. All were BUG Fish. None made top 8.
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=39512.0
This event had 29 players. 2 played Fish if you include "Confidant Control" and none were Noble Fish. None made top 8.
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=39315.0
This event had 68 players. 7 played Fish, 3 played Noble Fish. None made top 8. I actually analyzed this metagame over the course of two articles for Starcity Games, and Fish (and Null Rod strategies in general, including Beats) had a completely miserable showing for whatever reason.
Clearly, Fish is not performing well in the Northeast, as I said. It has historically done better in the New England metagame, but it does very poorly in the mid-Atlantic.
Going outside the Northeast, how about the Meandeck Open?
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=39746.0
4 Fish players, 3 were Noble Fish. 1 Fish player made top 8 and lost in the quarters.
How about Die Hard Games on 1/23?
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=39724.0
41 Players. No metagame breakdown, but no Fish in the Top 8.
I never said Pithing Needle doesn't have merit in Vintage. Of course it does.
I'm asking you to specifically name for me the decks that actually exist in modern Vintage that are packing Pithing Needle and are going to bring it in against Fish and run it out turn one on Misty Rainforest. I'm trying to explain that such a deck doesn't exist. Handicapping your own deck for a boogeyman that isn't real is counterproductive. Part of the reason why I'm even posting on MTGS is I want to clear up some misconceptions about Vintage outside of conversation on TMD, where I post extensively.
One of those misconceptions, clearly, is this idea that people are out there using Needle to combat fetchlands, leading to Fish decks that aren't optimally built and should have a Forest and 4x Misty Rainforest.
Of course there are plenty of Needle targets in Fish. I never said there weren't. The fact that there are a handful of relevant targets outside of fetchlands even more emphatically proves my point that people aren't going to go after fetchlands with Needle. I'm not sure how much more clearly I can prove that point.
Just food for thought.
I never disagreed that Fish was not widely a present archetype in the East Coast meta, but I was more so expressing as to why it wasn't? Now with respect to the validity of your statement suggesting that Fish is not popular in the East Coast, yes, that's true (I suppose for now). However, it is very much so a top deck (maybe not here, not yet, but in other areas around the world [outside of the US North East]).
That doesn't hold true with your latter statement.
I nor SM never suggested that the main reason for bringing in the Pithing Needles was attack the fetchlands. If anything, it is an alternative target, and I believe it is justifiable in certain situations to name a fetchland such as Misty Rainforest. I, for one, feel that you are speaking for the entire vintage community by suggesting that every player plays a singleton of every fetchland that uses blue for example. If that's the case, then that's a very biased opinion.
Addressing the issue with Pithing Needles not being brought in the modern vintage scene, that is also very biased. All the tournament reports you are showing (I understand that you are using to point out your argument that Fish is not a very popular deck in the East Coast) support your argument that, yes, Fish is a very unpopular deck in the East Coast. But why? And I still hold on the idea that Fish is a Top 3 contender no matter how you look at it. I am taking into account global vintage reports, not just a small section of the United States. For example,
http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1219 (has pithing needle and fish top 8) 2/6/10
http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1217 (2nd used pithing needle and fish top 8) 1/31/10
http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1216 (fish top 8) 1/17/10
http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1215 (fish top 8 and pithing needle use) 1/23/10
http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1214 (pithing needle used and top 8 fish) 1/31/10
http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1213 (fish and pithing needle use) 1/24/10
http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1211 (fish top 8 and needle use) 1/23/10
All of these reports do show that players, from around the world, are playing Fish and taking Top 8s consistently. These are the most up-to-date records and do not show otherwise. These reports also illustrate that Pithing Needles are still used in the modern vintage scene (maybe not particularly against Fish, but who really knows what Player A is thinking when he comes to a tournament? Maybe he's just had a badcase of Fish-phobia and wants to make sure they do not blow up his artifacts or take away his win because of Children of Korlis or beat him down with a Jitte and draw massive amounts of cards. The possibilities are endless. There is no definitive one answer) Nevertheless, my main question was to why this deck was not seeing play in the East Coast taking into account its massive success elsewhere.
My Trade Thread
Top ten listing on Morph, 6/10 reports show the needle was used {most cases in multi effect}...regardless of what a mage names or imputs them towards is another topic good member.
These come from a world that isn't real {I mean really...your wording is so close to a flame war, but hey I have tons of water for this matter}....or is it?
http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1209
http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1212
http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1214
http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1215
http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1217
http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1219
To go further since I don't know what I'm saying...
page 2
http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1208
http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1205
http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1202
http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1197
now I'm just having fun....
http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1196
http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1195
http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1190 {this might be small to count}
...I'm done, I told myself that if I ever came across a member that was this narrow minded again just because he's on a few reports I wouldn't even try...you win good member, because you got my goat so to speak.
Now this is where you come at me saying something with regards to those decks just running them is SB, and that was my whole point in the first place {that and addressing your misleading NOONE will needle your fetches}. You say noone will needle fetchlands...that's where you might be in that NON real world you mentioned....or maybe you just want to come off strong on this site with a fair fun fight with someone like me...and hey I'm a noone, but I do hope this noone gets that fine chance one day to face you good member.
Morphling.De is the world where the all the reports come in...if you have a problem with the MORPH...then you're right we live in a different world, and I do apologize for wasting my own time.
S.M.
Firstly, you linked to two of the top 8s that I already linked to, including one top 8 THAT WAS ME! Cmon. The other one, the Meandeck Open, has Pithing Needles played mostly by Oath (again, based on one of my Oath decks) that are used for exactly the reasons I stated above, NOT to target fetchlands.
As far as Harrisburg, I wrote an article stating that I thought that Noble Fish was underrepresented in the US meta and then made top 4 in NY to back up that claim. The deck played in Harrisburg was directly based on my articles on Fish. How do I know this? I was at the tournament and talked to the guy.
Secondly, the rest of the links you provided are for tournaments outside of the United States. There, you're talking about non-Proxy tournaments that are ALWAYS loaded with Fish decks. Completely different case than the US, so there's not even a reason to have that conversation.
Pithing Needle's main target in every US list that you linked to is BAZAAR OF BAGHDAD.
You're both completely missing the point.
I didn't say Needle isn't played.
I didn't say that Fish doesn't have Needle targets.
I didn't say that Fish doesn't do well, globally.
I said that Fish doesn't do well in the Northeast. It doesn't. I provided links to prove it.
I said that Fish has Needle targets more relevant than Fetchlands, which you BOTH agree with.
I said that there is no deck running Needles that is going to side them in against Fish AND name Misty Rainforest.
Do you understand that referencing Jitte as relevant just further proves that no one is naming "Misty Rainforest" with Pithing Needle?
You can dump all the links you want and not prove anything. I wish I had a better way to explain this.
Further, you need to reread what you wrote. You said, "It's hard to believe that the East Coast meta has only a small % of Fish players considering that this deck has been taking Top 3s consistently, and that is a fact. "
You didn't say, "I think Fish is one of the top 3 decks". You said, Fish is consistently taking top 3s. It isn't. Its barely cracking the top 8 in the US. If you want to change the metric on which we're arguing mid-conversation, then we're not going to get anywhere.
I know this post is falling on deaf ears and I'm going to get some more trolling responses, but such is life on the internet.
"It's hard to believe that the East Coast meta has only a small % of Fish players considering that this deck has been taking Top 3s consistently, and that is a fact."
And you're throwing a dozen top 8s from Europe, CA, and the rest of the world out there... what does that have to do with anything?