Played another one, Fish opened with
walk, wasteland x2, delta, noble, predator, lotus and won from there
Oath had negate x2, oath x2, orch, island, intuition.
You think it would be right to mull that hand? The land -> noble into draw and play mmage on oath by t2 seems pretty strong. If that hand was on the draw I would mulligan it but keep it on the play.
The mystical can fetch recall during the upkeep if lands dry up.
Yeah, but you'd have no opts for a turn 1 Oath of Druids from the other side of the table. They don't even need their Forbidden Orchard to start oathing turn 2.
You'd go T1 Noble, T2 Meddling Mage for what?, Turn 3 Recall.
If you'd had Force of Will then maybe. But you don't know if the Oath player have one as well. If he did, He'd still win. Or maybe if you could turn 1 Null Rod on the play maybe, then the Oath could not accell into t1 Oath and you would maybe have time to get Meddling Mage and Predator active.
EDIT: If you were on the draw, you could see if the Oath player pulled out a Turn 1 Oath. If he did, You could then Turn 1 Land, Go (and also get a chance at top decking a land on your first draw). They would then have skip the oath because no creature is in play (unless Forbidden Orcard was played turn 1). Then you could EOT Mystical Tutor for what you need. From there the game can go both ways depending on draw.
If the Oath did not play t1 Oath, then you could more or less play Noble on your first turn, then wait to see what his t2 move is. If he then plays turn 2 Oath. You can turn 2, Predator. Get beat in the face on his turn 3, then on your turn three you can Mystical for something that removes his creature (bounce), brainstorm to get it to your hand, Attack, Destroy oath.
Of course, this is all theory. Everything depends on if the oath player have answers or permission for my answers. But this is what I could imagine what would happen with that hand. (which is from my point of view, very risky hand vs oath on the play and slightly less on the draw.
I was using the list posted in post 19. It has 0 creature and 0 artifact bounce. The list as is, seems to just about lose to a t1 oath because of it. The outs are oath not getting forbidden while the fish player gets 3 mana to play and use pridemage, hopefully with counter back up or getting a predator and time walking or generous helpings of stifle.
In the situation we are talking about, I dont think it is really any safer to play the noble t2 as that may be a false sense of security to do eot tutors to find oath. Maybe the right answer is to simply mull that hand on the draw or play regardles.
My thought process was that if oath has t1 oath, I lose. t1 oath should occur maybe 20%? Needs 2 mana sources, one with green, and the oath. With Mmage on turn 2 (naming oath) that stops the easier t2 oath play and forces oath to get darkblast which is my only g1 out to it. By the time that would happen, the fish deck should have been able to get out the predator which just about seals it.
Perhaps you could cut 1 copy of Daze in favor of 1 MD removal. Otherwise all you can do is get a t1 Pridemage and be ready to blow it up before Oath activation, and hopefully you've stalled oath for some turns before it plays and tries for the 2nd oath.
I played against Oath, and I didn't lose a game out of a set {not a deck I face alot, but siding wasn't needed}. Between the Stifles, Mages, P.Mages it's almost a joke to think Noble would struggle against Oath {IMO}.
For that matter a Oath player better have that 1 turn Oath, then the Force, oh he/she must be going first.......and then maybe
Noble has a far more consistant top draw, and I won't even comment further more on that one {IMO},
This archtype is not a joke, and with it taking top seat after top seat.....Oath, Tezz, ect all fall under a disadvantage going up against it, and that's not IMO but a clear fact.
I read somewhere Goyf might be the weak leak as well, and I can see the utility flowing through this deck, but Goyf finishes.........and he's always going to be the King
We weren't discussing how this deck loses to Oath in general. But how it loses to T1 Oath of Druids /w Forbidden Orchard (Wo/ Orchard if you turn 1 Noble).
Once Oath gets out at least one of its beaters, it will most likely win. Your only opts is to prevent Oath from landing or from activating until you got some board control with your Fish. And this is very much possible as you say.
But we were talking about the hand he kept vs. that Oath game and discussing why he should have mulligan that hand.
My bad, and I guess that slipped by me. I thought the whole thing was a concept.........or a joke on that hand, I didn't think he was serious on that hand as a keeper....who keeps that?
Oops.
My guess is that I am valuing the strength of the cards in the listed opening hand different that you as I am assuming each player has complete knowledge of each others decklist. I used that hand as an opener against the same oath deck (with oath having random hands) and that hand ended up winning more than half of the games. Whether that was because of or in spite of the opening hand I am unsure.
As for life from the loam, I don't think that card is needed for this selkie strike deck. In the matches I have played vs. tezz, oath, tezz variant, tendrills storm and leyline/helm combo I don't ever recall thinking "now if only I could waste or strip lock them".
The other card I am curious of is Mystical Tutor. The deck is almost bare of tutors so it is nice to have 2 chances at ancestral or timewalk and on occasion grabbing the force. However, with the no bounce or creature kill version maybe additional disruption in the form of a 4th rod or a copy of Teeg or Mindcensor could prove more useful. Another option could be misdirection as this deck seems to like free spells because the mana can be tied up or limited due to wasting and dazing.
The creatures are in balance, and I know now from testing. The mystical stays in, and even as a cup holder in the late game.
I do agree though, Oath would have to be real lucky for the set, or the Noble~Goyf player must be having real horrible draws....or maybe a lack of play hours with it.
I can provide 1st place winning decks that go both routes. The one that doesn't main the Trygons has to eat up SB slots in order to fill at least 3-4 copies there.
S.M.
Here's yet another winning result post, and another clear sign this deck is the HOUSE! No matter how you look at this archtype {if you're ready or not to face it} it can handle almost all meta.......and walk to a top slot finish.
S.M.
I made a casual Bant Survival deck and included Skarrgan Pit-Skulk" target="blank">Skarrgan Pit-Skulk. Does he work with exalted? If so could this be useful in this deck?
I made a casual Bant Survival deck and included Skarrgan Pit-Skulk" target="blank">Skarrgan Pit-Skulk. Does he work with exalted? If so could this be useful in this deck?
Skarrgan doesnt have the growth of a goyf or the utility of the other creatures that this deck runs. The exalted to make bigger creatures is a bonus, the main use of it is to get alot of card advantage with selkie.
The creature base has no room for additions at this time, and trying to fit in creatures that are sub-par just can't be justified.
The deck is pretty stable to date with the only true changes coming in SideBoard which is meta.
New to vintage, so bear with me if these are two dumb questions.
1. Why no Rancor? Seems good in an aggressive build like this. T1 Selkie w/ Rancor and then exalted is 4-5 cards a turn. Seems good. And it comes back if your critter dies.
2. Why no Cephalid Constable? Again a T1 Constable w/ Exalted attacking T2 could set back a control deck a turn or two.
Hello and welcome to vintage...the place of masterminds!
As to your post Rancor's are just not a viable card in vintage. The creatures with exalted do the job as for boosting and with that don't require any extra card slots to be used. In lamemen terms if you try to place Rancor in what would you take out to justify the swap.
The Cephalid can be answered by this simple statement. They're just too slow for today's meta. By the time you get that ball going most combo players would have eaten you alive, and that goes with dredge and your mirror to say the least. The creatures that're in NobleGoyf are pretty much staple as to date, and changing them for creatures like Constable would pull it down to a more casual ground. I would say test him, but I'm sure it's been tried and sadly he didn't make the cut....The only thing I didn't like to see about this version was that the Kings were sided. I mean look at the meta, so I bet they came in almost every game 2-3's he faced. You can see Cursecatcher was played in Goyfs place, so maybe he was nervious about combo that day...who knows.
S.M.
New to vintage, so bear with me if these are two dumb questions.
1. Why no Rancor? Seems good in an aggressive build like this. T1 Selkie w/ Rancor and then exalted is 4-5 cards a turn. Seems good. And it comes back if your critter dies.
2. Why no Cephalid Constable? Again a T1 Constable w/ Exalted attacking T2 could set back a control deck a turn or two.
New to vintage, so bear with me if these are two dumb questions.
1. Why no Rancor? Seems good in an aggressive build like this. T1 Selkie w/ Rancor and then exalted is 4-5 cards a turn. Seems good. And it comes back if your critter dies.
2. Why no Cephalid Constable? Again a T1 Constable w/ Exalted attacking T2 could set back a control deck a turn or two.
Rancor is nice, but might need some testing to see how it works. I know if is very good vs smokestacks since you just sac your rancors to the stacks and then just replay them.
Also, Cephalid is interesting to use with exalted dudes, but for the match ups you face there are probably better options to bounce.
Noble`Goyf has solid in board hate vs stax {artifacts in general} so rancor would be a bad card to use, {waste of a slot as mentioned, and if stax was your only concern your sideboard would really handle them} but yeah some testing might be in order to see this fact.
I would just use the pridemage to keep stax at bay, {remember just one timed stifle can wreck house as well} and then crush them with goyfs.
I have a nice group of testers that play this build {including me, though I seem to take to BuG more}, so my advise has some merit. be real careful on what you pull from this deck....it only takes one or two bad card choices to turn this 1st place winning deck into a bottom tier bracket finish.
S.M.
Love the deck. But I just can't play this deck versus any random deck. This deck is so meta specific that I feel it has so many dead cards. IE, I played against goblins today---got rolled. But then again, this deck is strictly for the meta anyway....guess you can't always win. ;-/
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Don't get me wrong, playing Dredge is one of my guilty pleasures, along with eating chunky monkey ice cream and watching my Gilmore Girls DVDs in my underpants, but it's pretty much, in my opinion, the very last deck that I'd want anyone to start a career in Vintage with.
I hear you good member on that note, but have you tried bringing in the Jittes? This little artifact {has you probably already know;)} can send plenty of goblins packing.
There's no doubt that Noble`Goyf has more of a strong tier meta advantage, but with some sideboard adjusting this deck can still stay in tune VS rogue. Sadly Goblins are very aggressive....I have seen several versions of Noble that have Ghostly Prison in the SB, and I must share this isn't a bad option if you know your meta is heavy aggro.
I'm glad to hear you're enjoying this deck! It's hard to find another deck that's as proven as this deck when it comes to taking home the lotus so to speak.
If you need other side board options I have about 5 more that might help out against random metas.
Keep on testing bud, because the deck it just to good to not put in those hours.
Current first place winner is now just one click away! This was a small event, here's another one too that was a pretty large!
S.M.
Love the deck. But I just can't play this deck versus any random deck. This deck is so meta specific that I feel it has so many dead cards. IE, I played against goblins today---got rolled. But then again, this deck is strictly for the meta anyway....guess you can't always win. ;-/
yeah, thanks for the response. I see there lists are practically the same as every other Fish list, of course, minus the sideboard. Just out of random curiosity, I wanted to know your opinion on a really good deck that would fair in any meta (ie, casual, rogue, all formats). I just feel you have some pretty good knowledge of this. And also if you can perhaps tell me a deck that would incorporate Mox Sapphire. Present decks that are legacy legal and vintage legal. Thanks!
EDIT: Oh yeah, also I got 8 Proxies currently for this Noble Fish deck. Is that perfectly fine? (Mox Pearl, Mox Emerald, Lotus, Time Walk, Ancestral Recall, 3x Tundra)
Don't get me wrong, playing Dredge is one of my guilty pleasures, along with eating chunky monkey ice cream and watching my Gilmore Girls DVDs in my underpants, but it's pretty much, in my opinion, the very last deck that I'd want anyone to start a career in Vintage with.
Right now about every tourney I go to allow around 10-15 proxies so I feel you're in perfect balance with everyone else {I only own the Lotus, Recall, Walk} that goes to these events.
Now I just can't understand what you're asking....I think if you're looking for a deck that has a little more meat to it then maybe BuG fish might be a better option. It provides a bit more disruption then Noble, but I would still call it a flip coin or maybe 60/40 in fav for Noble as for a deck that wins more often....but I'm a bit bias seeing I like BuG because it fits my own personal play style.
Here's a Legacy deck list {Just know I have a PM box and I'm always helping members through that, so feel free to contact me there bud} that's pretty solid...if you like merfolk!
Back to this topic. If you're wanting a fish deck that's more for causal play so to speak I can create one for you, but I would advise you to stay with noble and perfect it. I can't really offer any better advise then sharing this deck is the top fish at the moment and has been for some time now.
S.M.
yeah, thanks for the response. I see there lists are practically the same as every other Fish list, of course, minus the sideboard. Just out of random curiosity, I wanted to know your opinion on a really good deck that would fair in any meta (ie, casual, rogue, all formats). I just feel you have some pretty good knowledge of this. And also if you can perhaps tell me a deck that would incorporate Mox Sapphire. Present decks that are legacy legal and vintage legal. Thanks!
EDIT: Oh yeah, also I got 8 Proxies currently for this Noble Fish deck. Is that perfectly fine? (Mox Pearl, Mox Emerald, Lotus, Time Walk, Ancestral Recall, 3x Tundra)
Just asking if perhaps is there a Mono Blue Control deck thats viable..
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Don't get me wrong, playing Dredge is one of my guilty pleasures, along with eating chunky monkey ice cream and watching my Gilmore Girls DVDs in my underpants, but it's pretty much, in my opinion, the very last deck that I'd want anyone to start a career in Vintage with.
Just asking if perhaps is there a Mono Blue Control deck thats viable..
Hmm that's a good question, but sadly any old version of GayFish {mono blue control fish builds} has been replaced by these super archtypes for some time now. Your best bet is to try out that legacy deck and maybe make a few changes to it, Recall, walk, Mox ect if you're wanting something solid blue. I can't give you any promise that it'll be viable as for a vintage deck that can handle the big boys like Unseen`Confidant, steel city Vault, IonaBallsOath, Bob'Storm ect, but I'm sure it'll handle those aggro creature based decks if that's your current meta;).
Check out the current Tezz Control deck AKA Unseen`Confidant {This is my new weapon of choice when not playing a fish build} if you're wanting a control based blue {small splash of Black and red for tempo and requires Mana Drain's} vintage deck with more power to wipe the floor, and there's a thread for that I've updated.
S.M.
walk, wasteland x2, delta, noble, predator, lotus and won from there
Oath had negate x2, oath x2, orch, island, intuition.
You think it would be right to mull that hand? The land -> noble into draw and play mmage on oath by t2 seems pretty strong. If that hand was on the draw I would mulligan it but keep it on the play.
The mystical can fetch recall during the upkeep if lands dry up.
AVOID MTG Fanatic ! Remands Orders and Re-lists cards for more money!
You'd go T1 Noble, T2 Meddling Mage for what?, Turn 3 Recall.
Oath go, T1 Oath, T2 Creature, Turn 3 Creature Win.
If you'd had Force of Will then maybe. But you don't know if the Oath player have one as well. If he did, He'd still win. Or maybe if you could turn 1 Null Rod on the play maybe, then the Oath could not accell into t1 Oath and you would maybe have time to get Meddling Mage and Predator active.
EDIT: If you were on the draw, you could see if the Oath player pulled out a Turn 1 Oath. If he did, You could then Turn 1 Land, Go (and also get a chance at top decking a land on your first draw). They would then have skip the oath because no creature is in play (unless Forbidden Orcard was played turn 1). Then you could EOT Mystical Tutor for what you need. From there the game can go both ways depending on draw.
If the Oath did not play t1 Oath, then you could more or less play Noble on your first turn, then wait to see what his t2 move is. If he then plays turn 2 Oath. You can turn 2, Predator. Get beat in the face on his turn 3, then on your turn three you can Mystical for something that removes his creature (bounce), brainstorm to get it to your hand, Attack, Destroy oath.
Of course, this is all theory. Everything depends on if the oath player have answers or permission for my answers. But this is what I could imagine what would happen with that hand. (which is from my point of view, very risky hand vs oath on the play and slightly less on the draw.
In the situation we are talking about, I dont think it is really any safer to play the noble t2 as that may be a false sense of security to do eot tutors to find oath. Maybe the right answer is to simply mull that hand on the draw or play regardles.
My thought process was that if oath has t1 oath, I lose. t1 oath should occur maybe 20%? Needs 2 mana sources, one with green, and the oath. With Mmage on turn 2 (naming oath) that stops the easier t2 oath play and forces oath to get darkblast which is my only g1 out to it. By the time that would happen, the fish deck should have been able to get out the predator which just about seals it.
AVOID MTG Fanatic ! Remands Orders and Re-lists cards for more money!
For that matter a Oath player better have that 1 turn Oath, then the Force, oh he/she must be going first.......and then maybe
Noble has a far more consistant top draw, and I won't even comment further more on that one {IMO},
This archtype is not a joke, and with it taking top seat after top seat.....Oath, Tezz, ect all fall under a disadvantage going up against it, and that's not IMO but a clear fact.
I read somewhere Goyf might be the weak leak as well, and I can see the utility flowing through this deck, but Goyf finishes.........and he's always going to be the King
Once Oath gets out at least one of its beaters, it will most likely win. Your only opts is to prevent Oath from landing or from activating until you got some board control with your Fish. And this is very much possible as you say.
But we were talking about the hand he kept vs. that Oath game and discussing why he should have mulligan that hand.
D3@D
Oops.
As for life from the loam, I don't think that card is needed for this selkie strike deck. In the matches I have played vs. tezz, oath, tezz variant, tendrills storm and leyline/helm combo I don't ever recall thinking "now if only I could waste or strip lock them".
The other card I am curious of is Mystical Tutor. The deck is almost bare of tutors so it is nice to have 2 chances at ancestral or timewalk and on occasion grabbing the force. However, with the no bounce or creature kill version maybe additional disruption in the form of a 4th rod or a copy of Teeg or Mindcensor could prove more useful. Another option could be misdirection as this deck seems to like free spells because the mana can be tied up or limited due to wasting and dazing.
AVOID MTG Fanatic ! Remands Orders and Re-lists cards for more money!
I do agree though, Oath would have to be real lucky for the set, or the Noble~Goyf player must be having real horrible draws....or maybe a lack of play hours with it.
Modern
UWRJeskai ControlRWU
RWGBurnGWR
Legacy
UWStonebladeWU
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Meddling Mage
4x Q. Pridemage
4x Cold-Eyed Selkie
3x Tarmogoyf
or
4x Noble Hierarch
3x Meddling Mage
3x Cold-Eyed Selkie
3x Q. Pridemage
3x Tarmogoyf
3x Trygon Predator
I can provide 1st place winning decks that go both routes. The one that doesn't main the Trygons has to eat up SB slots in order to fill at least 3-4 copies there.
S.M.
S.M.
Skarrgan doesnt have the growth of a goyf or the utility of the other creatures that this deck runs. The exalted to make bigger creatures is a bonus, the main use of it is to get alot of card advantage with selkie.
The deck is pretty stable to date with the only true changes coming in SideBoard which is meta.
1. Why no Rancor? Seems good in an aggressive build like this. T1 Selkie w/ Rancor and then exalted is 4-5 cards a turn. Seems good. And it comes back if your critter dies.
2. Why no Cephalid Constable? Again a T1 Constable w/ Exalted attacking T2 could set back a control deck a turn or two.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=519290
As to your post Rancor's are just not a viable card in vintage. The creatures with exalted do the job as for boosting and with that don't require any extra card slots to be used. In lamemen terms if you try to place Rancor in what would you take out to justify the swap.
The Cephalid can be answered by this simple statement. They're just too slow for today's meta. By the time you get that ball going most combo players would have eaten you alive, and that goes with dredge and your mirror to say the least. The creatures that're in NobleGoyf are pretty much staple as to date, and changing them for creatures like Constable would pull it down to a more casual ground. I would say test him, but I'm sure it's been tried and sadly he didn't make the cut....The only thing I didn't like to see about this version was that the Kings were sided. I mean look at the meta, so I bet they came in almost every game 2-3's he faced. You can see Cursecatcher was played in Goyfs place, so maybe he was nervious about combo that day...who knows.
S.M.
Rancor is nice, but might need some testing to see how it works. I know if is very good vs smokestacks since you just sac your rancors to the stacks and then just replay them.
Also, Cephalid is interesting to use with exalted dudes, but for the match ups you face there are probably better options to bounce.
BUWGRChilds PlayGRWUB
BUWGR Highlander GRWUB
UBSquee's Shapeshifting PetBU
BW Multiplayer Control WB
RG Changeling GR
UR Mana FlareRU
UMerfolkU
B MBMC B
I would just use the pridemage to keep stax at bay, {remember just one timed stifle can wreck house as well} and then crush them with goyfs.
I have a nice group of testers that play this build {including me, though I seem to take to BuG more}, so my advise has some merit. be real careful on what you pull from this deck....it only takes one or two bad card choices to turn this 1st place winning deck into a bottom tier bracket finish.
S.M.
Love the deck. But I just can't play this deck versus any random deck. This deck is so meta specific that I feel it has so many dead cards. IE, I played against goblins today---got rolled. But then again, this deck is strictly for the meta anyway....guess you can't always win. ;-/
My Trade Thread
There's no doubt that Noble`Goyf has more of a strong tier meta advantage, but with some sideboard adjusting this deck can still stay in tune VS rogue. Sadly Goblins are very aggressive....I have seen several versions of Noble that have Ghostly Prison in the SB, and I must share this isn't a bad option if you know your meta is heavy aggro.
I'm glad to hear you're enjoying this deck! It's hard to find another deck that's as proven as this deck when it comes to taking home the lotus so to speak.
If you need other side board options I have about 5 more that might help out against random metas.
Keep on testing bud, because the deck it just to good to not put in those hours.
Current first place winner is now just one click away! This was a small event, here's another one too that was a pretty large!
S.M.
EDIT: Oh yeah, also I got 8 Proxies currently for this Noble Fish deck. Is that perfectly fine? (Mox Pearl, Mox Emerald, Lotus, Time Walk, Ancestral Recall, 3x Tundra)
My Trade Thread
Now I just can't understand what you're asking....I think if you're looking for a deck that has a little more meat to it then maybe BuG fish might be a better option. It provides a bit more disruption then Noble, but I would still call it a flip coin or maybe 60/40 in fav for Noble as for a deck that wins more often....but I'm a bit bias seeing I like BuG because it fits my own personal play style.
Here's a Legacy deck list {Just know I have a PM box and I'm always helping members through that, so feel free to contact me there bud} that's pretty solid...if you like merfolk!
Back to this topic. If you're wanting a fish deck that's more for causal play so to speak I can create one for you, but I would advise you to stay with noble and perfect it. I can't really offer any better advise then sharing this deck is the top fish at the moment and has been for some time now.
S.M.
My Trade Thread
Hmm that's a good question, but sadly any old version of GayFish {mono blue control fish builds} has been replaced by these super archtypes for some time now. Your best bet is to try out that legacy deck and maybe make a few changes to it, Recall, walk, Mox ect if you're wanting something solid blue. I can't give you any promise that it'll be viable as for a vintage deck that can handle the big boys like Unseen`Confidant, steel city Vault, IonaBallsOath, Bob'Storm ect, but I'm sure it'll handle those aggro creature based decks if that's your current meta;).
Check out the current Tezz Control deck AKA Unseen`Confidant {This is my new weapon of choice when not playing a fish build} if you're wanting a control based blue {small splash of Black and red for tempo and requires Mana Drain's} vintage deck with more power to wipe the floor, and there's a thread for that I've updated.
S.M.